The Secret Strategist Behind The Biggest YouTubers

27:03Everyone that was involved in that content just did a phenomenal job. But how we packaged it could be the difference between it getting a couple million views and 28 million. So I think it's a really interesting exercise to, this is actually something Jimmy said to us the first time we ever went to Greenville. He told us with our packaging, he said, pull it to the most exaggerated version of what it is, and then pull it back to what you're comfortable with. But explore the most exaggerated version of the concept. And I thought that was a really interesting mental framework and exercise. And one of my favorite videos, this is not necessarily exaggerated, but one of my favorite title thumbnails on YouTube is from Veritasium.

27:47And it is, why are there 96 million black balls on this reservoir? Binger. it is it is an unbelievable title thumbnail it has 102 million views and and i think you know on the opposite end of what's the most exaggerated version of this you know he could have maybe gone like the 96 million mysterious black balls i don't i think the title is perfect but you can also go the other way and go what's like the most boring version and let's make sure we don't do that like that video is actually about how la protects its water supply so you which would have just been a brutal title with a much smaller total addressable market.

28:24So you said 103 million views? Yeah. If we had said, like, let's say we came in and we were the anti-strategists. Right. Let's say we start a company. Our job is to get YouTubers the least amount of views possible. We'd go in and we'd be like, oh, like, interesting. How about we title it, like, how LA addresses its water shortage problem. Right. That video on even Veritas' channel with millions of subscribers might have got 500K views. But with that - Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. With that title of 103. Wow. So yeah, it opens up a curiosity gap, right? Which is like the most important thing is like we need a curiosity gap.

28:54And I think what's interesting is we're starting to talk about, I think for the audience to latch onto, like there are some really interesting frameworks to start with when it comes to ideation. Like one is superlatives. So fastest, biggest, smallest. You see these a lot on YouTube. And I think superlatives are really easy visual words to latch onto. And I think that's important, right? The other is versus versus is a classic like Ford and F-150 versus Rivian, right? Like immediately you peg two things against each other. And then we just talked about like the three step that, that we talk about quite a bit, the like$1,$10, a hundred dollar, right?

29:33Those like three steps. So I think you start to the most important thing. There's a Seth Godin quote that says in order to be seen, you must learn how to see. And I think spending time on YouTube, just clocking what is the framework? Like what are they using in this framework to capture my attention is the most important. And just writing it down, being like, oh, interesting, world's smallest X. How many times do I see superlatives show up like that? Another one that I've been seeing a lot that we've had some success with over the years is like getting exclusive access or getting access to something that most people don't get access to.

30:11So there's a creator, an Irish creator, shout out Irish creators called Darata, who does these videos where, like he investigates these like secret islands or secret like military bases that have like pollution and the, you know, he has to wear like a gas mask when he goes there. Another example is like, we work with the creator Jesser, who's the biggest basketball creator. Like he'll do like getting access to the NBA, getting exclusive access to the finals. We did a video recently with a wildlife creator called Forrest Galante. and that title was called um private tour of secret indian billionaires wildlife sanctuary and that got like nine billion everyone in the world watched everyone nine million these nine billion in the future not quite um but like it's that format it's like even for maybe viewers listening they'd be like well i don't have exclusive access to like an indian billionaires private wildlife sanctuary right but it's like maybe there's some things you get interesting access to, or you can showcase that other people can't.

31:08And I actually think going back to like original points of like how do creators stand out in 2025 and beyond, I think it's becoming more important than ever to just lock in what your competitive advantage is. And for each of the clients that we work with, like we actually have it internally in a document, which is like, what is their competitive advantage? Like, what do we see as the thing that makes them be able to make something or create content that other people can't make? And I think a lot of people just go to, oh, it's money. Oh, it's like access or these things. And yes, that can be a competitive advantage, but quite often it's just like unique experience or like a unique authority to speak on something that other people can't speak on and things like that.

31:45So, you know, anyone that's actually an interesting point with like, even with the content I used to make on YouTube. And when I used to do these breakdown videos, they did really well, but technically anyone can kind of make those. But if I make a video talking about how I got 10 million views with clients or how, you know, we work with clients that do 20 million a year in revenue or something directly from YouTube. There's probably only a handful of people in the world that can actually say that as well. I also find that even if you don't have the money or the access, and let's say you're going with a title thumbnail and a concept that's more about your personal experience and your personal knowledge, sometimes that adds enough tension in itself of like, let me see if I believe you as an expert, like here's 10 things you can do to like improve your fitness or something or whatever.

32:29Like I know that there are a lot of those types of videos, but occasionally I'll see one. I'll be like, okay, there's actually tension here. That's going to make me click. Cause I want to see if I believe your expertise. Sometimes like that itself will bring you through the door. What do you think about lists? Like six financial tips or six, you know, like what do you think about lists? Ali Abdaal is like a very forward list man. Yeah. Ali, if you're listening. Hopefully you like that. I called you a list man, but he refers to himself as a forward thinking list man. So he, I mean, he said to us, he was like a YouTube video is, is a title, thumbnail and a list.

33:06And, uh, I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Um, what do you think about like titles with like a title framework with a list in it? I think if the items you're like showcasing are feel unique and interesting for your niche. So if you're let's say in the finance niche and you made a video, which is like seven money tips, you know, to grow your wealth, it's kind of a bit generic and broad and probably lots of people covered it before. But if you say like seven underrated saving tips or seven money tips, the top 1 % are using that you don't know. So like, I think there's nothing wrong.

33:38I think the actual format of list and listicles is really effective and it's very easy to consume as well. But I think if it's a low number, so like between like three things and like 10 or 12 things, I want there to be a really unique thing if it's a really big number sometimes that can be just like a bit more generic because you're just getting so much in one video so you see these videos which are like um 40 pieces of life advice i learned before turning 40 or something you see this like real quick fire like life advice type videos so i mean even i always think about list listicles as well if you're if your listicle is like under 10 i think you can start to see it as less of just a listicle but more of like a puzzle so i actually look used to look at my youtube videos like that i would say I'm posing a question, how did this creator grow this fast?

34:23And my listicle is basically every video followed like the three steps. The people used to like joke about it. They're like Patty's four step formula, Patty's genius strategy. Um, and basically every video would follow a listicle format, but it was like a puzzle list. So you'd piece, uh, pieces of the puzzle together to give the full picture. So I would say, how did this creator grow? Let's say, how did Mr. Beast grow? And then I'd be like, all right, here are the different components that led to his growth. and then the structure of my video, I would connect those points together. So I'm like, the first thing he did was this, but without this other thing that we're going to talk about next, it wouldn't have made sense.

34:56So next we have this and then we have this and then we have this and we're piecing together a full picture for viewers instead of it being like, how did Mr. Beast grow? Random tip, random tip, random tip. Cause that's like a bit chaotic and hard to follow. So it's like building a story into a listicle I really like. But yeah, it's definitely a format that works. I also think you can define who the list is for. I love this channel speed right now and he'll make a video like seven cars for cool nerds. And that's where like the tension and the interestingness comes from or like seven cars for cool nerds under 25 grand or something like that.

35:29So we're talking a lot about, you know, frameworks, pulling from what works on YouTube. And I think the challenge is nothing exists in a vacuum. So you do want to fit into the world of YouTube. You want to be familiar. You want to be unexpected. You want to make sure it's unique to you. Once you find something, it is pretty common that your category will just adopt your visual language. I think your thumbnail is a great example. I think our thumbnails are a great example. We are hard pressed to go on YouTube and see an interview that doesn't look kind of like our thumbnails. And especially in our niche, they look exactly like our thumbnails.

36:08They might have a slight change in color on the box that goes over the text. But, you know, we screenshot a lot of thumbnails that look exactly like our thumbnails. And we recognize that it might be hard for our audience to even identify when it's a Colin and Smear thumbnail now, because we're not in the thumbnails. It's guest plus, you know, quote or guest plus name. So what do you think in the direction of how do you advise channels to evolve from that when you found a format that works, you've built a brand off of it, but now you're living in a sea of sameness? That's a great question. it's a big decision because what I think sometimes happens is you have come up with a format that's really successful and that works really well other people are copying it and then almost like you get bullied out of the market by thinking you have to change which is so funny but I've talked to creators before and I'm like why did you change the format format it was working so well and they're like everyone else in my niche started copying me and it's like but it never stopped working so like you just kind of let someone who had 10 % market share bully you out of the niche which I usually strive more towards just doubling down further.

37:16Like I didn't care how many people, like so many people took my thumbnail format. The graph. It was crazy. And also I'm sure like if I trace back, there was some source, some place where I originally had that idea from. Like it wasn't a complete original thought as well, but it was my style. A lot of people have copied it, but I never, there was times where I got triggered. Like I'd see like, especially when there was one example where someone did the graph, their scripting was like identical to my scripting and they even use like the same background music and the same like bridging sentences like but next up like they said it the exact same way as me i was like this is ridiculous but i think generally i advise people unless the format is not working don't stop so like if you're if you're sort of thinking like hey our format has not stopped working just because other people are doing it i wouldn't stop because of that but i do think it's sometimes about like what are what are little things we can bring into the thumbnail that identified as ours.

38:08I think people's mind immediately goes like, oh, a little logo on the bottom left. I don't love that. Can Sunrise work? I don't love it. My mind always goes there. And my mind is always like, please take it off. And he always says, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't love that because for everyone who hasn't seen you, which as big as you guys are, it's still like a huge audience that has never seen you before. Of course, yeah. They're going to kind of go like, oh, that's kind of ugly. Not that your logo is ugly, but they're going to like, that kind of breaks up the image. And I don't know what that is.

38:34and it kind of just adds busyness that I don't like. So I always think of like thumbnail brand is more like, you know, could be color of text. I've seen a lot of people like copy your sort of yellow color, but it could be color of text, it could be font. It could be just like, sometimes I think about even the t-shirt or color that the guest is wearing, like it's difficult to control, but maybe in the thumbnail edit you can control it. But overall, I think it's just about trying to drown out that noise. It's hard as a creative person to drown out the noise yeah it's like the creator brain is actually look at what's working and repeat what's working the creative is how can i be unique and sometimes those are at odds with each other yeah right and it is it is the creative dies inside when you're no longer unique when you live in a sea of sameness uh but the creator you're right if it's working you're just like oh okay just keep doing that thing i i think i took this from you guys you said this on a podcast maybe years ago when it really resonated with me where you said there's like artists and distributors there's a spectrum of artists i can't tell you how much i think of that in my head and try to take a place where different people are on that frame so maybe someone like casey is really far on the artist side yeah maybe someone like jimmy is more on the distributor side yeah you know and it's interesting to think where we fall like i know that i fall probably further on this on the distributor side and there's a part of me that has that creative inclination and wants to like Like always like be original and be fresh and come with completely new things.

40:02But there's another part of me, which is like, Hey, like if we want to build something sustainable and build a business, it's like, if you're a band and you have a record that sells really well in a certain genre, and then you say, I want to be different and switch the genre altogether. You could be Kanye and it could work, or you could be all the other artists that like. Wild artist call out. Yeah. From Patty. I guess if you're Kanye, it works until it doesn't work. Yeah. That's the best type. But yeah, actually Frank Ocean is a really interesting example there too of like, so for people who don't know the spectrum that we're talking about, Colin and I talk about this spectrum of artist to distributor.

40:37The distributor is like the studio movie executive who's like, we got to make another Spider-Man because Spider-Man puts butts in seats. So keep making another Spider-Man. The artist is like, I'm going to make whatever I want. I don't care if people see it. Uh, and, and I think creators have to live, uh, like probably 75 % towards distributor. Yeah. Right. Like, and I think I live somewhere in the middle, which is challenging. Like the more you push over towards the artistic side, you might even have someone like an Emma Chamberlain who just like, doesn't want to do it anymore. Yeah. You know, just like, I don't, I don't want to play this game anymore.

41:14So it's an interesting middle ground between strategy and creativity.

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41:52Something I find really helpful with this is, and it actually goes back to a point you brought up earlier in this conversation as well about like building almost like a bingeable format. So they watch one and they can watch another. Right. So I like to think of this framework that I call the 80 % rule, but it's not like the classic Pareto principle 80 % rule, which is like, we should aim to interest 80 % plus of our audience with every upload. That sounds kind of basic when you hear it said, but it's a great way of diagnosing problems with the channel. Cause you look at a channel and you see them doing all these different formats and you're like, you know, you're, let's say you're playing this video game, then you're doing this video game, then this video game.

42:28And they're, they all fall within the category of video games. So you can say I'm in the video game niche, but like the percentage of people on planet earth that play all three of those games is probably very, very small, you know? And it's the same, even like when we went into like a brand channel, like Red Bull, like they have all these different sports. They have like skiing, snowboarding, basketball, Formula One. And like, there's very few people on earth and most of them work at Red Bull who actually enjoy and do all those things at the same time. So I always say the 80 % strategy reel says you should try to aim 80 % of your audience.

42:59But the second part of it is 80 % of the time. So you try to aim to interest 80 % plus overlap with your audience in every video, but you do that 80 % of the time. So you get one in let's say every five videos that you can just try something different and go and break that rule. And I think that's where you kind of innovate. Because if you just, there are channels that just focus down on like milking a certain format so much that then when that format dries up, they don't really have a bridge to cross to go to another place. I will say from a strategy perspective, I'm always more in favor of milking something than under milking something.

43:34It's like, what if I milk this too much? It's like, well, what if you don't milk it too much and everyone else copies it and you've just wasted all these, you know, views. The view maxer is not going to tell you to stop. That's for sure. There's a term in American football, which is run it till they stop you, which literally means run the play until they can, like, run the ball until they stop it. Because, like, if it's working, just keep doing it. Yeah. For us, I mean, you talk about experimenting. We always say that, like, you should have an engine as a creator and you should also have room for experimentation.

44:03for us. The show is the engine. It's consistent for us. We can put it out on a regular basis. And then we've started to actually set goals of like, oh, you know what? We want to do one video a quarter that is a total experiment. And that way we can look back on the year with some structure to that to make sure we're doing both the engine that we know works and experimenting to see maybe what the future of the channel could look like. Yeah. But can I ask you this? With that experiment, are you going to measure it against the success of your other videos or are you going to view it in isolation that's a really good question because this is the biggest thing i see as a problem with like even youtube's ranking system which a lot of people want to get rid of i still like the ranking system personally but you know again the view maximizer i love anything that gives me data i definitely don't want to get rid of it yeah i think it's important yeah i think it's important i think there's a quote from a movie executive who said the day i stopped caring about the box office numbers is the day I should be out of the business.

45:00And I, I always feel that about the one of 10 ranking of like the day I stopped caring about that is the day I should be out because that is, that's the game. Like that's the game we're playing. And if you don't care about that game, then you're, you're not in it, you know, and you, you, you might've fallen out of love with it. It is painful. It's a painful game, but it's, it's, uh, you have to love it. I think for us, it's a little bit difficult because I generally always know the experiments will work. Sure. Because they are documentary, long form, behind the scenes with either Jimmy or Mark Rober or some big creator.

45:33Yeah. And it's visual. Like it's made to be watched on TVs. It's made to be clicked on immediately. Whereas I know a three hour podcast episode is probably not going to have that initial velocity. Right. So I think for us, it's a little bit difficult. Maybe that's a problem. Like maybe if you feel like all your experiments are, you already know they're going to work. Maybe you should try something that you're like a bit more uncomfortable with. I think the interesting thing I always notice with creators and it's just like, we're all like this, but someone's like, this is an experiment. It's an experiment.

46:03It's something new. We don't know how it's going to do, you know? And then they upload the video and it's an eight out of 10 and they're like, disaster. Change thumbnail, change thumbnail, what's happening? This is, my channel is declining. Everything's gone down the drain. It's a rig. YouTube is rigged. It's a rig game. It's like, guys, like we said this was going to be an experiment. Like I have to deal with that. Part of my job is working with creators who are emotional people. I'm an emotional person as well. But like, it's like calming them down and being like, we knew this was going to underperform.

46:28You know, which I know is not the most reassuring thing to say, but like a thing, like a little hack that creators can do is before they upload a video, just get a Google sheet, get a notes app and just give a prediction for where you think it's going to come out of 10. I call it like an expected outcome. Like where do we think this video is going to fall? You have to like use a bit of your gut, a bit of maybe previous data of how videos have performed before, but just give yourself an expected outcome. So when you upload the video, if you have in your note or your sheet that it's going to be probably run at 8 out of 10 and it's an 8 out of 10, it's performing as expected.

46:56It's not underperforming. But it's like, imagine a business launches a new product line, which is the equivalent of a YouTube video experiment and compares it against their flagship product. They'd be like, this is performing terribly. Why did we ever do this? Yeah, this is disastrous. But if they compare it to like a new product or how that product performed when it first came out, they might be like, actually, there's something here. If it's a 5 out of 10, it's a big hit. Yeah, right. We have to look on such long time windows, but we're not able to, right? Because that's an investment. A new format is an investment in the future.

47:25So I think we also have started to value anecdotal feedback, which is really intangible. But who reached out after we made that video? Who was in our inbox? Who DM'd us? When we're out at an event, what episodes are they talking about? Last year, we made an episode about Hot Ones and about them going up for sale and some of our predictions and our thoughts on it. It's not our biggest video ever, but it was the most talked about of the year. And it created the most conversation. And that's a metric that we really value. So of course, there's the classic metrics that go alongside those rules that we just talked about, where it's like, okay, did people click?

48:08That's, you know, click the rate. Did I have a high click the rate? Did people watch till the end? AVD. Did people watch another video, right? Is there a returning viewer rate that we can connect to here? Those were obviously tracking, But then there's the anecdotal brand feedback that I think some creators forget about. Like we're building brands and that metric comes from how the industry perceives you or how your peers perceive you or how the world perceives you. And I think brand perception is something that is incredibly important when you're building a media platform or like a personal brand or when you're now talking about blue chip, you know, major legacy brands like Red Bull.

48:46Views might not be just the only thing that matter there. It's going to also be like the perception of the Red Bull brand. Right. And those, those are sometimes can be at odds with each other. Yeah. Like maybe me as the view maximizer for that 28 million video. I'm like, look at this. Look at the view count. Look at the ranking. Look at the lead it has over the two out of 10. Look at the retention curve for 28 million views to still hold this well. That's amazing. But the executive rebel might be like, look at the top comment. It says, wow, only Red Bull would pull off something this great. You know, cause that's all the comments are like that.

49:15So sometimes like, I mean, the screenshots of the comments in that video is a great case study of why brands should be doing YouTube because it's just like people, they don't just see that as Max Verstappen, drone, Formula One guy. They see it as Red Bull. They're like, Red Bull did this for us. They brought this for us. And that's so much more valuable than 28 million ad impressions. Like that is people living with your brands and living with your, your content. So yeah, I think what you've described is really important, but the difficult thing is I think it's so hard for people to measure. So you're saying like you go to people that come to you at events, stuff like that.

49:47It's just like a feeling. Yeah, it's very hard to measure. There's no corporate KPI against it. It's just like a feeling. Yeah, you have to be careful to let that sway you too much depending on what the feedback is. You could also just have a dude who's like, I love that. I mean, when we were first starting on YouTube, anyone who told us they loved that one video, we're like, let's make another one of those videos right now. That dude at the coffee shop said he liked it. When I used to work with the quite large Minecraft channel, we had a Discord server with maybe like two or 300 ,000 like fans in this discord server.

50:16And we had an individual channel, which was like contribute with video ideas. So imagine all these like people watching this Minecraft content, like your audience contributing video ideas, and it would be like 50 or 60 a day. So like those build up, you're getting hundreds of video ideas per week. I don't believe we ever made one from that list of people. And that wasn't to dismiss our audience's feedback, but it was nearly always do this again. Or like, you know, it was never actually like the signal. but one thing that's interesting on this and I maybe if there's like a YouTube employee watching I've said this to you before but like I would love this feature we know that on YouTube it's about clicks and it's about watches but it's also about satisfaction it's also about how satisfied you're making the viewers and still today I just feel like it's very difficult to measure that you can look at like to dislike ratio you can look at comment sentiments but imagine we had a situation where like YouTube gave us like a satisfaction score for a video that might be a really interesting way of measuring.

51:10I know with Twitter, how I measure satisfaction on Twitter, it's maybe not perfect, but I look at the bookmarks. So I was like, how many people were like, I want to bookmark this. I've had tweets that have done 500 ,000 views that have a hundred bookmarks. I have tweets that did a hundred thousand views that have 3000 bookmarks, you know? So I like to look at like how many people are bookmarking on Twitter, but the YouTube equivalent of that is quite difficult. You could look at shares, you could look at likes. I just wish there was something in studio. Maybe it's impossible because they measure against so many variables but i wish there was something that showed your video got a 78 satisfaction score or something that would be amazing so if we talk if we talk about like the evolution of youtube and the evolution of media you just mentioned like that video from red bull the comments are all about like this gift that red bull gave to the audience right and essentially making a equivalent of a tv show like the red bull channel is like Red Bull TV, right?

52:02And I don't think I anticipated that when we first started YouTube. I kind of anticipated that maybe the individual could become the modern media platform. And that has played out, right? Like individuals are more trusted from a media perspective than major corporations, the NBCs of the world, the CNNs, like they're not as trusted as the individuals who put out content on YouTube. But brands stepping in and becoming their own media platforms is interesting. And it's still not fully all the way there. We're at like very early stages with Red Bull probably leading the pack. I mean, this conversation is so incredibly niche.

52:44Yeah. When you think about it, like some of the tips that we're throwing around, some of the verbiage that we're throwing around, like you'd be hard pressed to find people from a marketing department at a brand who truly like understand what we're talking about and why they would need this, but I do truly believe that like five, 10 years from now, they will be extremely well-versed or they will have someone who is well-versed. Like is Nike going to make their own show on YouTube? Is McDonald's going to have their own version of a show? You know, what, what does the future of brands look like? And I'm curious if you can speak to right now, how you think creators and brands differ on YouTube and, and just your perspective, because you have a front row seat to how brands are treating YouTube.

53:24Like if we play this out, like what are they the next like big studios? I mean, that's really interesting. I think creators and brands, like the biggest difference is most creators, not all creators, but most creators, when you really dig deep, they just want to grow their audience. Not always, but like, you know, especially if they're coming to someone like me to work, it's usually because they want to grow their viewership because if we grow their viewership and like we have a great stat that we quote internally but first 12 months of working with a channel long form viewership growth is around 350 to 400 percent year over year so the 12 months before we took over 12 months after it's around 350 to 400 percent and especially with big established channels that's like a pretty big difference for creators great that's what we want you know give us views view maximizer like grant us more views right the brands it's like we want views we want to grow views but also we want to like be in front of the right viewers we don't want to just get views for the sake of it.

54:21We also don't want to do anything that puts our brand at danger or in a bad light, you know? And those are things that like a traditional YouTube coded brain like mine, maybe I first go into a situation like Rebel and I'm like, oh, like let's race an F1 car versus like Neymar or let's like do all these like huge ambitious ideas. And some of it is like that would get views, but that's not what we care about. You know, we don't care about views alone. Like we care about the connection. They want to grow the viewership, but they look at it as like, how can a lot of people see our brand in connection with aligned with good content and just feel like this brand brought the this situation to us so i think the biggest difference is they just optimize for more things which actually makes it sometimes a bit more difficult that's what i learned from first working with like rebel was the first brand we work with you know we work with the phil defy eagles now the football team the super bowl champions and we work with like a big car manufacturer, one of the biggest car manufacturers in the world, which I can't name and like some other brands here and there as well.

55:22And like all of them have their own things. They're not just views. They want to like showcase this side of the business. They want to use it. I think some brands look at it as like almost a recruitment driver, like come work with us because this is how cool it is to like, you know, make content here or like work at these companies. So every brand is different and that's like the biggest difference in creators is they're optimizing for so much more than just views. Do you ever have a brand that comes to you that you're working with and says, okay, we have a product launch video and I want to put it out on the channel.

55:50Brand, you can see me shut up my eyes with frustration. Brand YouTube channels are corporate video dumping grounds. Like they just treat it as like, this is, oh, I have this place where I can put videos. Therefore, it's almost treated like a Vimeo. Like it's like, let's just host videos there that we can put on the website and stuff. So, you know, you can look at like any big company and even companies that you might think would be better at this. But like, I was even looking at like a huge, like a cybersecurity company recently that's got like a$50 billion valuation or something, go onto their channel and it's like all just like letter from the CEO or like launch video or like what we're doing to connect with.

56:26And it's just the, yeah, corporate video, like dumping ground. And you're trying basically to not be seen at that point. Yeah. Like with titles like that. It's the anti-YouTube strategy. It's the anti-YouTube strategy. The anti-YouTube strategy is like, yeah, you keep doing that. Keep making corporate videos. Just don't even think about title thumbnail. Just put like video one. like yeah yeah yeah which actually might perform better honestly if you just go to like video one dot mlv it's mysterious a blank screen or video one would do better than the way it is true so many brands do that where you'll even go to their instagram or their tiktok and it's really well programmed it's well funded they've thought it out and then you go to their youtube channel and it's like it's like tumbleweeds it's just like weird remnants of of corporate videos you know it is in my opinion i think a lot this is just my opinion is because for some reason youtube hasn't had as much commercialization in the B2B space, like with like people providing YouTube level service to brands that like, they will end up working with these big agencies, like the big traditional, like social media agencies, marketing agencies.

57:23And they've got a pretty good dial on like Instagram, Facebook, you know, maybe not TikTok, but they've got a bit of a dial on it so they can make content. And it's rather be easy to make like decent Instagram content, decent TikTok content. YouTube, I think they still pay those same companies to do their YouTube. And I don't think those brands, agencies really have YouTube expertise in-house. Some of them do, I'm sure. But the majority don't. You like firmly cannot consider YouTube in the same conversation as Instagram and TikTok. I can't underscore that enough. I think like to do YouTube right is the first step, honestly, that I would do is have a like a YouTube strategist, but like a writer who's like writing a format that makes sense for both your brand and the channel.

58:06Like I think about Shopify a lot. Shopify is like a very present brand in the YouTube ecosystem, but they still do a lot of like corporate uploads to Shopify or, you know, they do tutorials and stuff like that. But I was watching this, um, this video, like there, there's a lot of videos that are like starting a million dollar business in 24 hours. Right. Like that, that could be a format that Shopify produces on their channel. Right. And like, that could be a show that's just repeating. I mean, like you, a ton of people would watch that. there's a creator i think called starter story yeah i've seen that yeah and he does like how this guy like started business in his is living room how this guy makes three million a year from faceless youtube channels right these different things i think you're so right shopify could be making every one of those videos they have like the database of all these interesting people they create like a existing they all they need is really like a format a title and a thumbnail and they could be printing views for their i think about the same thing with car companies It's amazing.

59:02I know you're working with one, but it's amazing to me when I look at the YouTube channel for a major car company and its corporate uploads and releases of certain cars and things, tutorials, because there is such an unbelievable ecosystem of car videos on YouTube that don't rely on like a big name being in the car. Like the car and the journey the car goes on is the star of the title thumbnail. And it's so easy, I feel like, for car companies to be a part of that. something crazy so like a car is like the second biggest purchase decision you make in your life right after house usually for most people i'd say the average car price in america is 25 to 40k probably um when people are buying a car there's research that shows that the platform that they go to for for research of what to buy is youtube yeah more than anything else more than ads more than like magazines more than newspapers so like people are going to youtube videos to make a this purchase decision, which is like 30 grand for a YouTube video.

59:58Like we're not just selling fidget spinners. We're selling cars for$30 ,000. Which is why Doug DeMauro has the business that he does. Yeah. So it's crazy that like, the interesting thing is already we talked about competitive advantages. Well, what's a competitive advantage for like these big brands is like, when they're releasing a new product, they have access to it before anyone else. So why aren't they doing the first video revealing it? Why is like an influencer, a creator, and I don't want to take these views away from creators too, because I think it can benefit the whole space of brands do this, but like the brand themselves should be first.

1:00:29But if you also like, so if we just take a step back on this concept of like brands becoming producers of content, Apple is a great example, right? Like when I first bought my, you know, my first ever Mac computer or iPod, did I think that Apple was going to make something like Severance? No, right? Like Severance is one of the greatest TV shows and it's funded by a company that is not necessarily an entertainment company. They're an entertainment company that's funded by a different product. Amazon Prime Video is another great example, right? We're already seeing it where producers of content are rooted in a different type of business.

1:01:04And I think that's going to play out on YouTube pretty significantly where it's like, hey, we have the funds. We could probably engage our audience better if we make a show. But I think the misguided understanding of YouTube is that it's a, it's, it's a like, like your YouTube channel is a place to upload videos. But if you think about your YouTube channel as a show, it feels really different. And that's where that third rule that we talk about of, do you want more stuff like this? It's like, if something hits, think about like respect the audience to go, their expectation is that this is a show.

1:01:39Like Amelia de Moldenberg's channel is chicken shop date, right? The kind of like network model of a channel or like a channel being like a ton of different things, I don't think really works as well as it used to. There was a time in YouTube where that did work, where Buzzfeed could upload 10 different shows and they'd all kind of hit. But I don't think that works anymore. Like when Buzzfeed was hitting with that show Worth It, right? That was a format. It's like, or the Try Guys, all those shows had to spin off to their own channels because they couldn't live in this environment anymore. And I think brands should look at that and go, wait, we can't upload like a ton of different things.

1:02:14We're actually just looking to make one show, a hit show. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two-factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it. Guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40 % your first year. Visit lifelock.com slash podcast for 40 % off. Terms apply. And a show that will compete with other shows in the genre.

1:02:52Yes. Not just like a hit show for hit show's sake. A show that will be directly pegged and placed next to all of your competitors. Now, I think this is a really interesting time because I think that independent creators will likely... Like, there's enough amazing creators who understand YouTube and the internet now. but i think of that subset there's a lot of them that don't want to do the advertising business meaning that the independent advertising business of selling brand sponsorships uh themselves right managing their own but if they got hired as like a show creator for a brand that they're interested in things change right like if you're a cooking creator and all of a sudden you know le cruze comes to you and is like you know what we love what you're doing can we just kind of like acquire you into this and you're are like make this cooking show but make it through the through the context of late cruiset that's really interesting and especially creators that are maybe like they've hit a point with their channel where they want a new challenge maybe they're a bit burnt out and they're doing a lot themselves a big brand is like hey like come develop this show internally with us and like we'll give you everything we'll make sure like you you know don't have to do all the editing all that kind of stuff i could see that and if you think about a brand like target so target has a youtube channel right and we talked about this a bit before we record it.

1:04:10I don't want to look at it. Is it good? It's not good. No, it's not good. And Target's a massive brand. And you think about this context of Target. It's like, how does Target not have supermarket sweep as a show? Yeah. How did they not do it? The thumbnails right there, the like, you know, whatever you can put in the cart, you know, you take is such a clean format. It's very easy. Let alone they have so many creators now who have products in Target. it. Yeah. They could integrate into the episodes. Have you seen, there's a channel called The Deal Guy? No. Have you seen that channel? Uh-uh. They just do, I think it's Costco.

1:04:44It just does like a monthly roundup of like Costco. And it's like what's a great deal in Costco this month? Okay. That's so good. Like why doesn't a big shopping brand do that? I'm going to tell you guys the most recent upload to the target YouTube channel. It is titled. The title's too long, so it doesn't fit. So let me open the video. It's titled Target Accelerators Presents, Semicolon, Retail Fundamentals, Dash, Introduction to Mass Retail, 634 views in nine days. And the thumbnail looks like a Zoom call. Look at that. Whoa. Like that is just such. This is why I said I didn't want to see it.

1:05:20it's just such a massive missed opportunity for the amount of access that target has and how how commonplace a target is to everyone in the u.s and so already accepted and comfortable it's an amazing set for a show dude i mean in that video whatever this video is about target accelerators presents retail fundamentals i'll tell you what like it doesn't need to live here but you know it's interesting put it on vimeo it can live somewhere else because clearly He's watching that. No one's waiting for it. Are they just making videos for their own like senior employees to look at? There's a question of like brand risk with these brands.

1:05:56And to me, this is riskier than what we're talking about. Like what was Jimmy's format? It was like anything you can put in the cart. I'll pay for, right? Something like that. If Target repeated that format with celebrities, with also with just regular people. It's fascinating, right? If you showed up and it's like, here's a Target cart. anything you can fit in the cart in the next 30 seconds you keep people choose interesting things like i would i would watch that all the time you get short form content out of that like i i think if you think about your channel as a tv show all of a sudden it can change the framework and in people's minds because you'd be like yeah we why would we upload that zoom call to a tv show that's crazy that well you just said there i think that's going to resonate a lot with brands like that just like change it to would you do this if it was like a tv show i would love to sit with with brands in this context because i think brands have recognition they have funding and they a lot of them have like sets like we're talking about target like they have a set for this show and they have production teams and the people in those production teams i would imagine a lot of them are pushing with what we're saying right now yeah like they're really like guys and like you said the brand risk like the you know the brand sort of like excuse might be like oh it's like risky we don't want to try like it could go wrong which i understand but like we just started this podcast talking about how youtube is hollywood it's streaming it's podcast it is the platform and in three or four years i feel like consumers are gonna like kind of look at brands and be like what are they doing on youtube and if you look at target and i can't even remember the title it was so long but like accelerator core fundamental whatever like if you look at that it's embarrassing in my opinion to like represent like such a big, impressive brand with like that content.

1:07:40But I wonder if it'll just naturally again, play out with like brands just picking up creators. Yeah. It could happen. It could be really, really interesting. I mean, if you search Target Hall, there are so many videos of like self-care hall at Target in the last year that have 2.8 million views. Right. Right. Upwards of three to four to five million views. How does it happen that there's not somebody who does a quick audit of like, let's search or like in your experience, is that what we're seeing there? That's just a deep prioritization of YouTube and Target being like, maybe, hey, there's, like you're saying, there's Target halls all over YouTube.

1:08:14We're already essentially present on YouTube. Why would we have to have our own show? I think it's just maybe not even understanding like the discoverability of YouTube. Like, because if they did that Target hall show, they brought in like some celebrities to do it. Like, I don't think it's outrageous to say they could be reaching 10 million viewers an episode. But the danger is that they might overproduce it. That's the question I want to ask both of you actually, is how do you keep it authentic? Because sometimes if you even, even if you bring a creator who's great onto a brand channel, you can tell there's so many bigger forces at play that it doesn't feel authentic.

1:08:49And that's also a huge risk, I think, if you're going to have a brand YouTube channel. Yeah, true. They need to have that creator in the room. They need to have people like us in the room. They need to have people that can direct and have actual ownership of that. Because in my experience, and I think I'm very lucky because I I work with the Red Bull team and their YouTube team is phenomenal. So even before I came in, they were already doing pretty decent content and we've skyrocketed with them, but a lot of that's down to them and how talented their individuals are. And even higher level in the company, their higher executives are really open to content.

1:09:19They understand how important content is. Then we work with the Eagles and Mike connects with the Eagles, the person I directly report to at the Eagles, he just sees, he watches YouTube, he sees how valuable YouTube is. But I think the problem is that like to your point like maybe you could bring in a creator to make this show format but like if all these maybe senior marketing people who are like really good at their traditional marketing roles obviously but if they start to like pull it around say like no that doesn't look polished enough or we need to do this this this it ends up looking to uh corporate and a really a bit of a tangent but like an example of this is like you know the ronaldo channel yeah when it launched like i was like oh awesome ronaldo's doing a channel like the most famous athlete in history like this is going to be huge and it's obviously done really well but i watched that content we said that it broke all the rules we talked about i was like this is like a great way of putting it is like this is what people think that have never watched youtube before think youtube is yeah you know it's like if you've never actually sat down and consumed content you would say oh like they want like these funny like weird edits and like laughing soundtracks and like it's just like it's almost a parody of what youtube content is yeah it's like an snl skit of YouTube.

1:10:27And then there's also like bizarre things like the iPhone videos of him playing tennis with his kids. And it's like a 12 second clip that like repeats and does like different trends, star transition and all this stuff. And it has like 60 million views. Yeah. It's like, if he's doing that with that, like imagine. But he's like, that's a unicorn. You know, that's a unicorn. It's like, I think actually celebrity channels are at heavy risk of overproduction, heavy risk. Like the excitement is actually the intimacy. And I think you mentioned access. Access is like, you know, Chris Hemsworth or something going to like a sick gym is like, I've seen it a million times.

1:11:06I don't, it doesn't, unless Chris Hemsworth says something exclusive or there's something exceptionally interesting, it doesn't, I've seen it too many times at this point. Yeah. So to explore the, um, the three questions we try and ask anyone who asks us YouTube advice or even honestly product advice, the first three questions are, who is this for? Why would they watch? And is it unique to you? And I think, uh, those are just three really simple questions to always ask. And the, uh, the, the, the second one I think gets overlooked quite a bit of like, why would they watch this right and i think the assumption is because it looks pretty and i think with celebrity youtube channel specifically the assumption is they'll watch because i'm a celebrity because i'm a celebrity yeah but it's not concepted or titled in thumbnails correctly to actually reach people so that's like interesting i think a lot of celebrities do like almost like vlogs right they're just like 24 hours with me in miami or something yeah it's like okay like i guess your your big core fan base would like this but if you're really viewing content as a way to actually broaden your empire and improve your distribution.

1:12:14Like I like the idea of like concept vlogs. So not just a vlog, but like there's a concept behind what you're doing. So it's like, instead of just like, um, 24 hours, me, it's like day in the life of like an NFL player or something. It's like, okay, that's a concept now. Which is something you basically did with the Eagles, right? Yeah. The Eagles did a video, um, a year and a bit ago that we helped them package. that was seven days, an NFL player's life for seven days with Lane Johnson, who's one of their star players. And I feel like if you just titled that, like maybe more specific to the player or more specific to the Eagles, it would have performed a lot less than it did.

1:12:50Is Lane Johnson's name in the title? I don't believe it is. I don't think it's, at least not the star. I think it's NFL player to give it that broader appeal. So it's not just the Lane Johnson fan. Which is probably hard for people to wrap their heads around, especially like if you're at the Eagles, you're like, it's Lane Johnson. Yeah, he's the guy. They're like, why are you calling him NFL player? I do that a lot with the Eagles. I'm like, unless it's like a Saquon or Jalen, like NFL player, you know, which maybe some people would look at as like, these are huge names, but it's like to that broad audience, same with like a Red Bull, like there's a Max Verstappen and there's a Neymar who, these are Red Bull athletes.

1:13:23There's all these other athletes that are all really, really important and like are incredible in their fields. But like, do they have like audience recognition? Do people, I sort of think it is like Zeitgeist names. Like people see Max Verstappen and they're like, okay, I know that guy drives cars fast. So if I see a video of him driving against a drone, makes sense. Right. But a lot of people like overestimate how important people are or like how, um, interested people are in people's names. I see this all the time, even with like business channels, a channel like a podcast channel that did this would be like, die of a CEO.

1:13:54So instead of, he could pick this person who's like a huge, like well-known figure, but he'll call him like the money expert. Yeah. Or like classic. We've done this too. As someone who has a similar type of show, it is weird to look at a guest and be like, hmm, do we use their name or do we use a description of who they are? Yeah. You know, specifically with Jacob Collier, who's this Grammy winning musician, like multi times winning musician. We had him on the show and we titled it, we interviewed the Mozart of Gen Z and his name is in the thumbnail. But that descriptor, I think, is why that episode found as much scale as it did.

1:14:27It's a great episode, but I think it's one of my favorite episodes. But had we titled it around just Jacob Collier, I'm not sure we would have gone outside of his audience. I mean, I think we're going to have a bit of a case with this episode. Like, I think if you title this episode with my name leading, it could work well for your core audience. There's podcasts with my name leading that have maybe 100 ,000 views, maybe 200 ,000 views. But if you're going after a bigger view count, you're probably going to have to call me something else. You're going to describe me something different and I won't take any offense.

1:14:55Yeah, but that's the interesting part. And I think what you mentioned is like, again, we're building a brand and there's sensitivities at play. And so I imagine also with the Eagles, like it might be really sensitive to not use Lane Johnson's name because he might be like, whoa, why put my name in the title? Like, what are you talking about? Right. And I think you understand it. So we can actually have a very honest upfront conversation about like title and packaging for this video. I think the takeaway is like whether you're a brand or you're a creator and you're trying to get better at this, like writing titles as a daily exercise is probably the most important thing you could do.

1:15:32Like it is just the whole thing. Thinking of titles, writing them, taking a title that you see on YouTube and reshaping it a hundred times, you know, or just like, and now there's so many great tools to help you do that too. But just like getting a high volume of titles through your brain is so important. Cause then you can pull from formats that you have. Yeah. Right. I sometimes tell creators like write 30 tiles for your video. Yeah. Like Patty, that's overwhelming. It's too much. I'm like, is everyone just experiencing things different to me? Because 30 tiles, like we can write 30 tiles and like, we could do that together in like 10 minutes.

1:16:05Right. Not even like, it doesn't mean, I think people always think that when we say like, come up with a huge volume of titles or thumbnail concepts that they all have to be like, great. No, like it's about like putting things together, trying different words, seeing what looks interesting. Totally. Studying other people. like what are they doing try to adapt that so for a lot of the clients we work with like we're sitting down and me and my team will write yeah 30 40 titles for a video and like that doesn't take that long and five of them are slight alterations of a previous one right that's just like one word difference or something so it's not it's not like you're coming up with 30 brand new ideas in a row you're writing one and then altering that and then altering it and altering it and altering it and like you said actually if 29 of them are awful that's actually totally fine because you'll also start to learn what a bad idea looks like right and like that that's also important um so exactly what one thing i'd say on brands as well as i've noticed about brands is like i think this is just from in my experience i'm curious like with your work with brands as well if you've noticed this but quite often the brands are almost like how do we let creators know that like we're open to collaborate or open to do things i've heard that before it's Like, how do we like, because I think sometimes creators just assume because some brands are so protective, like you maybe go to like some sports franchises and they're like, no, we're not going to give you access to this.

1:17:20No, whatever. But like, I know with the Eagles, like if you're a large creator and you have like a cool idea that involves like an NFL team, like, and they can give you some access or something, they're really open to being pitched on that sort of stuff. And the same for Red Bull. Like if you're a creator that has like an already pretty decent audience and you have like a cool idea with something with Red Bull, like they're pretty open. So the brands that are already doing YouTube as well, well already almost like want to be like, guys, like tell us like ideas you want to make with us. Like we want to almost be part of this conversation and this ecosystem.

1:17:48I think you need social proof first. So I think the Eagles have to do something with a creator. They have to go outbound first. Yeah. Right. So they actually have to pitch a creator an idea, do that, and then use that as the top of funnel. Because like as creators, as anyone in business, like social proof is so important. You got to be like, well, has anyone done it before? Right. Yeah. It's like, what do you mean? I also think for brands though, it can be overwhelming because there are so many creators. Like curation is what they need the most sometimes if they're going to work with a creator.

1:18:17Someone to be able to say, hey, this is actually a vetted creator who's been in market for a while. They have an audience fit. Like they've worked with these brands in the past. This will be a great fit for you. It's something that I would say a lot of brands come to us with and that we do with a lot of brands is creator discovery. Just like, hey, just who should I even consider? Right? But I think that's a really important process of like, what does that look and feel like? But back to what we were talking about when it comes to repeatable formats, Target has that supermarket sweep format. The ask is way clearer.

1:18:49The ask of like, pitch us anything feels overwhelming, right? You're putting a lot of onus on me as the creator to pitch you the Eagles something. But if the Eagles were like, hey, we do this format where you come, you answer five questions. Will you come do it? And it creates aspiration too. Now I want to be on the Eagles show or I want to be on Target's show. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like Condé Nast, actually, if we take a step further back, Condé Nast has created some of the most easy to repeat formats on YouTube. 10 Things You Can't Live Without, right? Or Architectural Digest. Yeah. Or the 70, what was it?

1:19:2073 question. 72 or 73? 73? 73 sounds weirder. No, no, no. I think it's, guys, we look this up right now. No, no, let's let everyone put it in the comments. Let's not look it up. 73. Everyone put it up. I'm saying 72. Yeah. But that, that all, uh, you know, stems from, uh, God, I'm not remembering his name. This one guy at Condé Nast who like really came up with a lot of these, uh, these awesome formats. Uh, and I think when you have that format, yeah, like Colin said, it creates aspiration, right? Like our, like 10 things I can't live without the GQ thing. Like if we ended up on that, I'd be like, I'd be like, Oh my God, we kind of made it.

1:19:57Or like the wired autocomplete. The wired autocomplete. Right. And so you like, just look at what Condé Nast did and, and think about that in the context of your brand can you make one of those formats because now you can invite creators to come collaborate and i think that's way easier than going here like we're the eagles do something with us yeah right yeah yeah and then if you do have like a product launch or a campaign initiative you can kind of just integrate it into your show that already does well right it's so powerful yeah yeah and you have full control over it yeah yeah so i think uh I think we will see this, but it's going to require a lot of handholding because it's terrifying.

1:20:38It's terrifying for a brand to like make a show. Right. But I do think it is like that. It is absolutely the future. I want to talk about, we talked a lot about packaging. I'm curious how much you spend on the first 30 seconds of videos with your clients. Quite a lot. Yeah. So the interesting thing about, you know, we talked about earlier with the multiplier. I think the biggest levers to like multiply growth are that title, the thumbnail, the idea, like it's rarely that a better intro leads to 270 times more views. But with that said, even with a video, I kind of break it down to like, what are the areas that are worth heavy time allocation?

1:21:16And like, if you take a 10 minute video, if you say 10 minute videos, well, how long do you spend on each minute? I think conventionally you would say, you're probably gonna spend like 10 % of time on each minute in a 10 minute video. but for our clients and for how we think about things like the allocation for that first minute might actually be 20 or 30 percent it just might be a bit more allocation to really just like spend time on getting that right and front loading the video with the best value one actually thing i really uh experienced and learned from our good friend jimmy uh mr beast was like when i was uh working with jimmy four or five years ago um it was so interesting that how like when myself and the lead editor would bring the edit to Jimmy.

1:21:57If the first 30 seconds was great, like he would like find all the rest of the content great as well. Not always, but he'd be much more happy with like how the video feels. But if something was wrong there, it was like, no, this is like everything, everything's wrong. And at the time I was like, I wonder why he thinks that. And then the more I've like learned that experience myself, it's like, well, Jimmy's coded his brain to like be a viewer. And if you start your video on the wrong foot, the viewer already has this, like, you've almost like anchored the video in bad so the viewer is like oh this is already underwhelming or this is already like not interesting so they don't they give you less leeway as you go longer the video so i really like to think about you know intros like i always say like my intro formula is like immediately try to deliver on the promise in in some sense so like if you make a promise in your title film now in your intro can you deliver on that visually or verbally some way to just make like a nice frame i like to think about is like just make your viewer feel like they made the right decision.

1:22:51Don't make them feel like an idiot. You said the same thing. Yeah. Make them feel like they made the right decision. And then it's like, you know, the necessary context, not over context. So some credits put too much context in that intro. So what's the necessary context? What are the intriguing like parts of the story or parts of the video that you can kind of tease or highlight in that intro? And then how do we just kind of flow into the first storyline, the first action point without like this big gap? Like I like being able to look at an intro and say, I don't really know where that intro starts and ends.

1:23:19It just flows into the content. Other people have different ways of doing intro. Yeah, that's interesting. We have a bit of a different framework for that. Basically, how we think about it is like the first thing is confirm the click. So you click in, you have to go, okay, that is the thumbnail that I clicked on. The first seven seconds is establishing the video and kind of laying the context and the foundation for it. And by 30 seconds, we want to introduce a new hook. So we want to introduce something that you didn't expect from the thumbnail that is going to make you stay until the end. and deliver an expectation of value.

1:23:51If you stay towards the end, you will get these loops closed. Right. I like that. So I think that's something that we try and do and explore. You can see all these different formats for intros. A format I think is really successful as well and works really well is like multiple questions and then a promise of an answer. So it could be like, you could make, let's just think of an example. Like you're saying, so a megalodon, which is like giant prehistoric shark. so you might say like the megalodon was like the fiercest president in the oceans it was like five times the size of great white shark it killed everything it's on site and yet somehow it went extinct how how could this shark go extinct how could this thing happen and then you sort of the viewer like yeah how could that happen and then you're like is there a mysterious reason behind the disappearance of the megalodon and then suddenly you're like okay that's intriguing and then it's like in this video we're going to dive into it yeah it reminds me so much of watching your old videos like the way that you talk the way that you post questions that's my format really which begs the question for me why don't you ever just make a channel that's faceless about something like that that has like this massive audience just to see yeah well the answer is i have okay okay i've had a lot of faceless channels over the years it's kind of like people think of me as just my patty galloway channel but i've had quite a few other successful channels over the years that have been faceless behind the scenes that i don't always reveal some of them being kind of music genre that some people watching might have heard me talk about or hear before but like the reason i love to work with creators is because i am not that talented at being in front of camera i just don't maybe you disagree but i don't think i'm that talented being in front of camera so i kind of realized already in my career hey like i'm good at these things but a minecraft creator is making videos that could get 20 30 million views if they're right so if i equip my knowledge and expertise with someone who has like the talent and the ability and maybe the competitive advantage i don't have competitive advantage as a minecraft player like i'm not good at minecraft but someone who's like really good at building the world's best minecraft builder or the world's best minecraft pvp player they might have this really big competitive advantage so i look at it as like i rather equip my um skill set with like a bigger vehicle that can go further than my own vehicle but i will say like i think a natural evolution as i build out my company and team is i think we're going to invest a bit more into original content and like even with the creators work right now i'm like thinking how can we like have more ownership in in the content so it's not just like consultants but it's partners yeah growth partners with channels oh that's cool yeah i like that do you consult on short form too what's your what's your position on because there's kind of this world right now where youtube is watched on tvs there's content that's living in the like 22 30 like if you look at ryan trans channel right now like he's living in the like 30 plus range a lot.

1:26:39Jimmy's living in the 30 plus range a lot, right? Like we're starting to see YouTube videos push 30, 40 minutes or Michelle Carey putting out an hour long piece of content. And then the other side of YouTube is like super short form. Yeah. Weirdly, Red Bull is actually living in the middle. Yeah, we crush it with short form there. But I would say like classically, like I'm a long form guy. Like that's always been what I've made. That's like, like I was a full-time YouTuber between the ages of like 14 to like 22, 23, and kind of to present at different points. Like that was how I made my living.

1:27:15It was always through long form. So like, that's what I feel like I'm best at. And I actually think other people who have come up over the last like three years might be better than me at doing short form. So what we do is like, if brands want to do short form, like we'll advise, we actually do ideation for some short form. We give some brands like ideas because they're actually really fun. There's a lot of ideas that we brainstorm. We almost have like elimination criteria. And some of those ideas, like one of the elimination criteria is like, is this a short form idea? Because maybe it's a great idea, but does it live in like a 10 minute, 20 minute video?

1:27:45Maybe not, but maybe it lives really well in like a 20, 30 second short. So we do a little bit of that with clients. We don't lead with that. I think shorts is like amazing. I know a lot of people are kind of anti shorts or think it's bad, but I think it's really cool. And, you know, there is also a funny thing with like shorts inflation of like view counts and numbers though, where like, you know, even earlier in this episode, like we quoted that like 10 billion views a year. Like if I wanted to make it a hundred billion views a year, I'd just try to like sign every massive short screen. Right, right, right, right.

1:28:14Yeah. So it is like a bit of a crazy thing. That gets back though to the like brand and impact and how it's tougher to measure. Right. But making sure you're not just getting views for views sake. Yeah. Right. That there's some actual engagement here. People are remembering your brand. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think there's also the question now of like all these other factors as we like continue to go into YouTube, Like there's the, there's the creators who are most likely view maxing, right? When looking at Patty and being like, how do I view max? And then as we get into this more nuanced world of brands and celebrities, like one person I think about and that we talked about before is Timothy Chalamet.

1:28:49Like Chalamet, how he shows up on YouTube is really interesting to me because he's like a movie star and a movie star. If you think about there, there was a time early on when Colin and I were working in sports where we worked with Jeremy Lin on his YouTube channel. Do you know who Jeremy Lin is? he's a basketball player who was probably the first nba player to feel like soup like very human it's very relatable he was uh but during his run as like linsan he's superhuman at first because he had just like an unbelievable run at madison square garden uh and was not like a starting player but he just like performed to an unbelievable degree for a number of games but then after that launched a youtube channel yeah with sketches and just very authentic raw Raw YouTube.

1:29:34Yeah. Like truly the first athlete I've ever seen to just go, I'm a YouTuber. And as we were working on that channel and being with him behind the scenes and like exploring what he was doing, I was like, this is so interesting because with athletes specifically, there's this difference of humanizing an athlete and then also making an athlete essentially untouchable. Right. So like you go Michael Jordan in his heyday, that was like superhero. Right. So you actually don't want a lot of Michael Jordan. you know if you look back on it like i wouldn't advise someone like michael jordan have a youtube channel like don't be accessible be inaccessible and be a superstar then you have jeremy lynn like the humanization so all this comes back to the the premise of a movie star like timothy chalamet who actually i don't know if people know this has early origins on youtube did xbox controller modifications on youtube uh and now his modern day press circuit was on youtube yeah and that is the modern day press circuit but i'm curious just to think about like can someone like that come onto youtube upload less but still have a premium brand yeah should he should timothy youtube channel so i think that's interesting because like movie stars like their life is very like i've never been a movie star but i would assume it's like work like all day on a project for months and then like a bit of a break between projects you know so i haven't heard like timothy talk about that like how on like the set of um the bob dylan movie he was just like every day every hour just on it on it so like in that mode having a camera falling around or him trying to shoot content you could see that being challenging and that work but in those times in between especially when we consider like i think he's like he's a youtube kid like i think he's the same age as me like very close in age to me probably grew up with youtube like when youtube was released I was like 10 or 9 and he probably grew up like you know the Xbox controller stuff like the Call of Duty trick shotting so he probably has a deep passion for YouTube I think what we would do if us three were advising Timothee Chalamet is say like okay what's really unique and interesting about your life that you can show probably a lot like is it like a behind the scenes at the Oscars is it like a you know a recap that we talk about vlogs like failing a little bit sometimes but a concept vlog about like getting access like night at the Oscars could be interesting also like something i see and it goes back to that nfl player thing is with a lot of these big people the interest is people wanting to know what it's like to be that person so like the reason people like nfl player day in the lives is not always about the nfl player it's about like what does like an nfl player live like yeah especially people that see that as aspirations like i'd love to be an nfl player like how do they live like what's this like so i think about that for timothy like what are like the day in the life of like on the set of Dune 3 or something.

1:32:20We always used to ask athletes, what would you talk about if you weren't being paid and if you couldn't talk about your sport? Like, is there anything that you would want to talk about? You'd be passionate enough to talk about, even if you didn't get paid for the rest of your life and start there. Like, if it is your sport, fine. You can retire and you can still make videos about your sport forever. But is there something that you'd be interested in that's not? And I think with Timothee Chalamet, like, I would want to ask him too, like instead of covering your life and giving access all the time, which will make you accessible.

1:32:53And you might burn out from that. And you might burn out from that. Is there anything you are passionate about that you're a community member of that you would want to contribute to that community? That's a really good idea. That's a good idea. If we, if you took down a celebrity and ask those things, but then like stop that one. Cause I think that would be another issue is like, like people are so multifaceted that he's like, I like this, this and this. And then before you know it, it's like, it would have to be too much. And I think because the people on the other side would be like, yeah, whatever you want.

1:33:21Cool. Let's do all that. I think with Chalamet, if he was, if he wanted to do this, I would, I would be very curious about his fashion choices. Like I would be very, very curious to, to watch how he thinks about that. Or if that's not something that he thinks about and stylist does it, that's fine. But I think even what he wore to the Oscars was like unique and interesting. And he is like expressing himself in a really interesting way. Or like as a Knicks fan, do you want to do Knicks commentary? Oh, that'd be super interesting. Right? Like how interesting would it be that like, you kind of would have to watch, not because you're a Timothee Chalamet fan, but because you're a Knicks fan.

1:33:53Yeah, that would be interesting. And that would make him like such a multifaceted, he already is multifaceted, but like, I think it makes you that multifaceted person. Yeah. But I also think you have to play the world of like accessibility, right? Of like, does it make sense to be accessible? Which maybe doesn't work for him. Which maybe doesn't work, but you go to another movie star who maybe wants to be accessible and you go, all right, yeah, maybe there is something here. And I think it makes it, it's interesting how it ties into like the seasons of a career. Cause I think like movie stars, like, I guess they kind of, maybe they have like, some movie stars are just timeless, like a De Niro, Al Pacino, you know, but like some movie stars, like they have like maybe a peak where they're like making all the big films.

1:34:31And then after that they want to like take it a bit slower. And with athletes, there's like that cutoff point as well. Like if you're an NFL player and you're 35, you know, you're like, okay, realistically after this, I can either go into coaching, punditry, or I guess just live off my savings, you know, and do whatever, but maybe another avenue of that is content creator. Like I already have the base. People already liked me for a reason. Can I just like, you know, I saw like a Travis or not Travis and Jason Kelsey did a video where he's like talking about his like custom car or something. So I saw that.

1:35:02Could the video, a channel be that's just like Jason Kelsey talking about his car? Yeah. I think what, what I, what we tried to do with athletes at that time and what I try and do with everyone who pitches me like a YouTube channel or format, I always say think about this on a 52 week window. Can you make this every week for 52 weeks? Because sometimes we also worked with Giannis and You want to say his last name? Atatakumbo. Oh, nice. I had to be able to nail it. I was trying to get you there. We've done some videos with him with Jesser and every time I'm trying to read out, because one of the videos with him did incredible, so every time I read out the title, I'm like, and our video with Giannis with Giannis.

1:35:40No, I'm actually really impressed with him now. And I think the way he shows up in Jester's videos are fantastic. I think that format, by the way, I've guessed the NBA, secret NBA players, unbelievable format. But like his rookie year, he was not that into doing the YouTube channel. I think he wanted to do YouTube, but he didn't have the time and space for it. So it was overproduced, too many people on set. I was looking around on the first day of shoot and I was like, if we want to do this every week for 52 weeks, This is going to be super expensive, unsustainable. It's like a massive production every week.

1:36:12And so you try and reduce it down. Again, you look at someone like Ryan Trahan filming with his iPhone. You're like, how can we get this into like the simplest form? Is it like Jason Kelsey with this? Like Marquez's channel, Autofocus, is perfect YouTube to me. It is perfect YouTube. That is like from a production lift perspective, he's holding his iPhone. He films with his car. sometimes he barely cuts it's like two cuts he just rattles it off and that's it and it uploads and he has like a thumbnail format for it like that to me is is perfect youtube yeah i love that channel have you seen the new intro format they've been doing where they like start in a bush or something yeah yeah yeah yeah and yeah like it's intimidating to an athlete to be like title thumbnail intro scripting blah blah intriguing language statement plus injury you get ask all this stuff to be like hey what's something you're passionate about you know can you film with an iphone can you go like that yeah i think that makes a lot of sense okay one more brand channel i want to pitch is like if a airline like a delta or something or maybe like a more international one uh partnered with or had a creator like a drew binsky and essentially just traveled to the destinations and did even did like simple formats of like living if they're a more budget airline, you know, visiting Singapore on a dollar or like, you know, what, what can, what can a dollar get you in Singapore?

1:37:35Right. And they like use the airline to fly there. Or if it's a more luxury airline, you do the like, you know,$25 ,000 hotel room in Dubai, right. For Emirates. Like, I think you can, you can build out the world like that, but I think airlines have really great opportunity to create YouTube shows. You just made me think that I feel like a great way for a brand to realize if there's potential there is to just see like, our creators already making content about this thing so like if we think about staples of viral youtube content like airline seats whether it's really budget ones or like like the case and i stopped one from years ago like 60 million views like the emirates one and we think about car car brands like cars you know i think looking at what's working and just seeing like what if like yeah we can sponsor this we can like do whatever but like what if we own this i think it's really interesting.

1:38:23I could totally see what that reminds. And then they play it on the plane. Well, dude, we got to make this an annual thing, I think. I think we got to keep updated because there's so much to talk about and so much to explore and also to just note where the industry and where YouTube is. It'd be really fun to make this annual and go, where are we in 2026? Did more brands join? Is the quote-unquote meta different or are there new metas that have emerged? It's a really fun conversation. Yeah, the YouTube roundtable. I love it. I love it. Alright, thanks, Paddy. Thanks, Pat. You got it. Pleasure.