We interviewed the Head of Instagram: Adam Mosseri

24:53Whereas with my brother, it's like pretty off-color, dark stand-up comedy. You know, never would post that to all my followers. So with my sister, it's more furniture design and architecture. So it's more niche-oriented, and I think it's a little bit less sensational on average. And I think that helps shift the tenor of the content that you experience on Instagram. And I'm not saying all the content people see on Instagram is positive. That is not true. Any major social network with hundreds of millions or billions of users is going to have all sorts of negative energy in it. But I think the average energy, the average tenor of the content bias is more positive on Instagram for a few reasons.

25:33And one of them is the content that rises to the top is the content you'd share with an individual in a conversation, not that you would yell from a rooftop to the whole world. That's really interesting, like that. What would you say is the competitive advantage of Instagram and Reels specifically? When we look at the world of short-form video, I look at it as Instagram Reels and TikTok. and it's not that creators can't post similar types of videos on both or the same video on both but what would you say is Instagram's sort of superpower when it comes to Reels in relation to TikTok? I think it's more creative freedom obviously TikTok has been leaning into photos and trying to get into other formats like stories but they've had a lot less success there I'm not speaking poorly of TikTok, they're a phenomenal competitor they do a number of things really well.

26:23And there's a few things where I still feel like we're trying to catch up with them. But in general, I think our suite of tools, which by the way, sometimes can be a little intimidating or people get stressed by how many options there are. I do think gives creators more freedom to figure out how they want to realize their goals. And I think that's important. We're also a larger platform worldwide. And so that gives you more potential reach, particularly if your content is globally applicable, which is hard in video. I've actually seen you guys talk about this too, where language is a challenge.

26:59If your content requires deep understanding of what's being said, that's tough if someone doesn't speak the language. So there's a few things like that. But I think TikTok's great. I think they do really great work. And they've inspired us to get a lot better at what we call exploration-based rankings. So doing better ranking for smaller creators and helping them have a chance of breaking out and just be really, really reliably entertaining. Like you know you're going to have a pretty good time if you open up that app. Yeah, it almost scares me how good of a time it is. Yeah. It's like, I'm curious, like in comparison, and maybe this is if you know the specifics or not, but like how long would it take me on Instagram to change my for you feed versus TikTok.

27:51Because I find that on TikTok - They're faster. It's way faster. If I start watching cooking videos, the next time I open TikTok, I'm in the cooking world, right? We're still behind them on speed there. You have to be careful though, because sometimes you can be the opposite problem. Like explore is still a little tippy. It's like, hey, I watched one cooking video. It's like, ease up. I don't need this to be all cooking all the time. that's not just about speed though that's about intensity so you might adapt quickly but not go overboard in how much cooking in that example you use they're very fast and we they're very fast in two ways one, understanding your interests more quickly and adapting and two, getting content that is going to succeed to succeed really quickly and that helps them be culturally relevant we've been closing the gap pretty quickly on both of those fronts but there's still room to improve on those areas for us.

28:46And then on the note of language, like we talk about this all the time, that if you want to have a successful short form piece of content, it ideally should be able to be viewed with the sound off. Not even any language, transcend language. I was curious if you know how many people watch Instagram with their sound off. Is that a stat that you know? I don't have a stat to share. But last I checked, it's not about people, it's about time. So like what percentage of video impressions have sound on or off? And I think it was roughly half. Half. It was roughly half. I mean, give or take 10 % plus or minus, but it was roughly half.

29:24I think that's a really important thing for creators to think about. Yeah, that's why captions are so important. That's why you got to make sure your captions are visible in the feed, not just in the full screen viewer. One of the classic mistakes is put your captions and you don't even see them until you expand the video. And then by then you probably have sound on anyway. But ideally, similar to YouTube where we think a lot about title thumbnail and packaging, the packaging of a short form piece of content is the first frame and the visual hook, right? And so the first frame and the visual hook should be able to be understood without language.

29:53That I think is the most important piece of advice. I totally agree. But there's also ways to do it in the full video that aren't necessarily not using language. I remember reading, oh man, what was his name? Malcolm Gladwell's book, I think, on strangers and not being able to trust strangers. And there's a whole section in there. I forget why it's even connected to that idea about the show Friends and how tons of people around the world have learned to speak English watching Friends because you can basically know exactly what's happening without understanding any of the words because the acting is so over-the-top expressive.

30:28I'm not trying to offend any Friends lovers out there. I know a couple of them are passionate about Friends. Friends is great. But you can kind of know what's going on because it's almost like a caricature of a response. And you can think about that in the content, right? So I'm not saying you have to make giant facial expressions, but just watch your video and see if someone can get the gist without actually understanding every word. And you'll know. And if they can, it's going to have a wider appeal. So with Instagram being so DM-focused, what I've also noticed is my younger cousins use Snap a lot for messaging.

31:06which is amazing. It's incredible how prominent it is as a messaging app. With young people, it's very strong. With young people. Very strong. And I was curious just, we talked about TikTok, I think about Snap, and I think about just how young people are using the internet today versus when this was the earlier version of social, it felt like the battle was for the user base. Is that correct? Like trying to get as many users as possible? What is the war you're fighting or the battle you're fighting today with the other competitors? What is the competition for? It's for a number of different things.

31:47I mean, it is at some level for attention, right? We are an advertising-based business, and that business is going to be proportional to the amount of attention that's spent on the platform. Got it. But it's also for cultural relevance. I think a lot about what decisions do we need to make that don't necessarily grow the pie, but I think will be good for the business over the long term. One thing that is controversial is we focus on creators and we don't focus on publishers. We don't try to prevent publishers from using our platform, but we build features for creators. We don't build features for publishers.

32:23I don't have teams that goal on any production that includes publishers, if I can avoid it. I have teams goal on creator production. Can you define the difference? Yeah, so a creator is an individual that creates original content with some level of commercial intent. I don't mean necessarily making money. It could just be part of what you do. You're trying to grow because you're trying to achieve something on the platform. So publishers are brands, magazines, newspapers. It doesn't have to just be news. And there's amazing content from publishers on the platform. But they're not individuals. They are creating original content and they definitely have commercial intent.

33:03And we focus on creators because we believe power is going to continue to shift from institutions to individuals across industries. We've seen this in sports. We've seen this in news. We've seen this in music. We've seen this in every vertical. But just think about how relevant athletes are right now relative to the teams that they play for. Sure. And how different that was 20, 30 years ago, with very few exceptions. A lot of people's allegiance is sometimes primarily to a player now, not to a team. That's insane if you think about sports fans when I was a kid. And so we just think that shift is going to continue.

33:41And we also see that in the data. Creators drive, on average, more engagement than a publisher does. People want to see the world through the eyes of another individual that they relate to or that they look up to more than they want to consume content from a publisher that they feel is hyper-processed and produced and designed for them. If that trend keeps up, what does Instagram have to do to continue to make creators happy? I think a lot about when Kylie Jenner shared that post of make Instagram again. And that was in relationship to like... That sparked some pretty good memes about me. That was fun.

34:17But if LeBron has more followers than the Lakers, if that trend continues for creators, what does Instagram have to do to keep creators happy in the next five, ten years? Creators are tough to keep happy. But there's a number of different things that we know that they care about. And we work hard, contrary to popular belief, on trying to keep them happy. One is clearly reach. I do think reach is a means to an end. It's not an end in and of itself. and I think too many people just focus on reach for reach's sake. But you want your reach to be growing over time and ideally relatively stable. That's very hard to deliver on.

34:55Any platform that guarantees you stable reach is lying. That doesn't mean that platforms aren't working on it and trying to give you more reach and trying to figure out how to grow the pie. But pure stability is really, it's not possible, even if everyone just did chronological feeds everywhere. But that matters a lot. It also matters how safe you feel on the platform. Do you feel like you can be yourself? Or can you share the part of yourself that you want to share? So that's about protection. It's about dealing with any antagonistic behaviors or bullying or harassment. But safety matters a lot.

35:32Revenue matters a lot, but actually to a very small subset of creators. The vast majority of creators are very small. And they're too small to monetize in a meaningful way. And so, yes, they care about monetization. They want to hear about monetization, but it's actually not the thing that they can or should really focus on because if you have 2 ,000 followers, it's not really going to be the thing that you should spend your time on is figuring out how to grow your following, not try to make money from 2 ,000 followers. They also care a lot about being able to connect with and interact with both their fans but also other creators.

36:06So we try to also figure out ways to facilitate connections between creators and creators and fans. Actually, that's another thing that we do really particularly well that we kind of lucked into is with DMs. If I just am a fan of you and I follow you and then you figure out who I am and then you can text me on Instagram and it goes into my inbox. So I know people in Hollywood who just like end up making real connections with people who become lifelong business partners because they like their stuff on Instagram. And they're not even digital native creators. It's like a film schooler or a director.

36:41So those are the things we try to improve. And obviously, we've got room to improve across the board as everybody. I think it's interesting to hear that revenue is not as important. And sure, for a creator who maybe has 2 ,000 followers, it's not something that's coming their way. When we told our friends that we were coming here, who are primarily YouTube creators, that we were going to be sitting down with you, they were so interested in revenue. I think for us, we come from this culture of revenue share. And I know Facebook does it. And I'm curious, where does Instagram lie in revenue share?

37:15I'll talk about revenue share in a second, but you should also tell me if I'm wrong. That's just the research that we have suggests what creators care about. I think for me, the challenge is that I don't think we can blanket use the term creators anymore. And I think specifically on Instagram, I think it's harder to use that term. I think the term is so broad that it's challenging to have it encapsulate everyone in the category, right? And when it comes to Instagram, like, you know, my parents are on Instagram. They post content on Instagram and they probably have a thousand or two thousand. We have so many cousins, Indian family.

37:47So it's like we have so many cousins, they probably have 2 ,000 followers. On YouTube, there's more of a divide between creator and consumer. The line is much clearer. Instagram, it's way more you can. It's just like everyone. Everyone can be considered a creator. And so there, for me, if we look at it as like a pyramid of like the emerging creator, you know, as the base of the pyramid, the vast majority on Instagram is going to be an emerging or aspiring creator. Someone who knows how to make good stuff, but they haven't figured out how it can become their full-time income. Then you have like the professional creator group who's making a living, right?

38:15And then you have the top tier, which is probably like A-list celebrity and hyper large-scale creators at the top of that. Yeah, yeah. If we're talking about the creator pyramid there. And the base is not going to care about revenue or maybe they care about it, but it's not going to be a factor for them yet. Yes. But the next notch and up - Care a ton. Care. Care to, I think there's a bit of, for me on Instagram, that I've accepted the fact that the way we monetize is we build an audience and then we, it's a part of our broader advertising business. It's not something we split with the platform, but we're able to sell native advertising ourselves.

38:56Branding content. Yeah, which makes a ton of sense. That's actually, last night, best we can tell, well north of a$15 billion industry is people doing brand deals off platform on Instagram. and then just shipping that content on Instagram. And I do totally understand that revenue matters a ton, particularly for large creators, and large creators are disproportionately important because they reach more people. On RevShare, because I want to make sure I'm not skirting the question, it's something that we're working on. It's something that I think is just fundamentally more difficult with short-form video, though I do think shorts is doing decently.

39:30But with long-form video, everything is a bit more straightforward, particularly attribution. So if you watch a 20-minute video and you see three ads, what percentage do you want to share? And it's very clear who that share goes to. Whereas with short-form video, if you watch 50 videos and you see 15 ads, who gets those dollars? So attribution is tricky in and of itself. But the bigger problem is that we haven't figured out a way to do it that isn't just burning cash. So we are running tests for what we call bonuses, which are essentially performance-based incentives. So we'll pay you to create more content, and then people create more content.

40:12But then we measure, does that actually increase the revenue for the app so that we can actually have money to share back? And we are finding that it is much easier to make those programs ROI positive for photos than for videos. and one of the reasons is photos are higher monetization efficiency because you get more ad impressions because you look at photos for less time. But another is that per dollar, when you pay a creator to create something new, they will create more incremental photos and incremental videos because videos are harder to make. And really interesting, the incremental content they make is lower quality than the average quality, but that drop is much lower for photos than for reels.

40:58So they'll make another reel but they will only make one and it's way worse than the reel that they would have created otherwise or the first reel that they would have created either way. And so we are trying to figure out, okay, well, what can we do about that? How can we get this working? Because to me, I need that program to make enough money so that we can pay creators and have those checks be credible. If I send you guys a$12 check, it's probably going to make you think worse of us than if we just didn't have a program. And so we're iterating, and we're iterating in Japan and Korea and the U.S.

41:30to try to get these programs on their video side working so that we can then scale them up. But for us to do that, it's going to need to not burn money. It's going to need to get to a place where the eligibility can be, ideally, public, so you know why you're allowed to be in the program in the first place, and the checks need to be credible, which probably comes down to CPM. at the end of the day. Yeah, I think credibility is the most important. Because I don't think, you know, if we got a$12 check, I don't think I would feel disrespected or anything like that. I would just want to know, how did that happen?

42:05But it might discourage. Oh, it might discourage. But if I knew there was a clear path towards like, hey, this is why it was$12 based off the viewership you got. Here's what you can do to increase it. Right? I may feel better about that. The trick though is it's not just about your viewership. It's about the replacement value. you. So let's say you made 10 reels through the program and they all got really good views. But if you hadn't made it, we would have had just as much engagement from him that wasn't paid for. Then from an Instagram business perspective, the ROI is negative 100%. So if we paid you a thousand bucks, I'm making up numbers now for 10 reels, and the replacement value was zero, you would look at at your reels and you'd be like, they all got 500 ,000 views and these are the CPMs, you owe me X.

42:57And it's like, yes, but from a business perspective, if we hadn't paid you$1 ,000 and we would have made the exact same amount of revenue, then we've actually just burned$1 ,000. And so, yes, we should show you why. But my worry is that let's say I show you why to the degree I can. And let's say I even pay you more than 100%. Let's say it's$1 ,000 and I pay you$1 ,000 and we only made an incremental$900. I've lost$900 and you've got a$100 check and you probably are going to think that I'm being cheap because I'm only paying you$100 for 10 videos that got half a million views each. So it's tricky.

43:43And I'm not trying to say our job is hard. Of course, our job is hard and we've got great jobs. and I'm very grateful for them. I'm just saying that the program has to be sustainable. Because if it's not, if we're burning cash, when things get tight, when the economy goes up and down and ad dollars go up and down, and a lot of our business is just exposed to macroeconomics at this point, then when we cut marketing budgets, like one of the things that we're going to cut is a program that is literally burning money. And I need the program to be stable. I can't have a program this year and take it away for everyone and take it away next year and then bring it back the year after, that's just jerking you around.

44:22And you all, particularly the large creators, you're a business. So how much money you make matters, but so does the consistency of those dollars so that you can plan accordingly. You know, I think we had, it's really interesting, actually. I didn't anticipate that answer from you. I think what you just said makes a ton of sense. And I think about when we first started, we were making such niche content on YouTube that AdSense and revenue share was nominal for the first nine years of us being on YouTube. And so we learned how to build a business without revenue share. And so even when I think about Instagram, I do think that now the culture and to look out the next five, 10 years, solving some level of revenue share for video is important or some level of platform monetization.

45:11but largely because of what you just talked about from a macroeconomic standpoint, I think all creators need to solve, if consistency is important, the ads business is actually not the best business to be consistent. It's inherently volatile. It's inherently volatile. So then if you're building a business on top of Instagram, then platform monetization would not be the path for your most consistent check. I think we want to feel valued because we feel valued by other platforms. And I think YouTube figuring out the shorts revenue sharing model in this like large pool, it feels like a nice step in that direction.

45:51I was curious what you thought about that, of like the model that they've implemented there. I think it's a good model. I don't know if it's working or not from a business perspective because I don't know. Maybe they're just subsidizing their shorts business with their long-form video business or with their search business. because they want to grow in short form video. Because TikTok hurt us in 2020 and 2021, but it hurt them way more. So it's not unreasonable as a business to take a loss in order to grow market share and assume that you're going to figure it out later, which they might be doing.

46:27And to be clear, they are best in class at refshare. But refshare is not the only way to make money as a creator. Whereas TikTok is best in class at discovering small creators and helping them pop. but it's not best in class at RepShare. It's not best in class in stability of reach. In fact, that ability to pop is sort of inversely correlated with stability of reach because it's more volatile by definition. And so I think they're doing good work. I know a lot of people who work there who just do good stuff. I don't know if they're subsidizing it or if they're just better at it than we are or what's going on.

47:00But also YouTube isn't Google or Alphabet's main business. Search is their main business. And whenever you are in an adjacent business, I'm sure they care about their P &L. I think you guys interviewed Neil before. But it's not the same pressure. Whereas Instagram, yes, Facebook and Instagram are like sister apps. We're both driving most of the revenue for the company in order to subsidize all the other longer-term bets that we're making. So one thing is Facebook video. video. We have friends who their number one revenue source is Facebook in-stream ads. It's huge. It's a huge source of revenue.

47:43And a lot of that is because they're posting relatively longer form content, three to six, maybe 10 minute videos on Facebook and the content's engaging. And I'm surprised always when we meet a creator who's like, yeah, I make most of my money from Facebook. Facebook is much bigger than Instagram worldwide. If you just look at raw minutes per day or raw hours per day. I do think, though, it's a different app in a number of ways. They don't have DMs in it. We have a much stronger position in a lot of countries, not all countries, around friends sharing products like stories, not just DMs. And I think of connecting friends as an adjacent thing to short-form video, and short-form video is an adjacent thing to long-form video.

48:28but long-form video and connecting friends aren't adjacent. And it pains me because I love podcasts, watching them, listening to them, doing them. I actually did a couple of interviews with creators over the last couple of weeks. And it pains me sometimes that long-form content just doesn't have a real great home on Instagram. But if our core thing is about connecting people over creativity, I can't get enamored with the long-form video business and then lose our core identity. People think, and they give us criticism, and it's fair sometimes, that sometimes we lose our way or forget who we are.

49:07But the reason why I am not interested in pursuing long-form video in a meaningful way is because I don't want to erode our, it's not even our business, our heart, our core reason to exist. I do think a piece of short-form vertical content right now is one of the highest margin branded content pieces in a creator business. We've experienced it, right? Like when we do a short form vertical video campaign, typically the ad dollars are there, right? There's more ad dollars that have shifted towards short form vertical video now. The piece of content can also be posted across platform, different platforms.

49:47And it's easier to make than a long form YouTube video. And so in this moment right now, the short form vertical video branded content business is probably the highest margin video business for creators. That obviously is dependent on your size and scale. But I think in large part, that is the highest margin business right now as a creator. I believe that. You did a video on a pod recently. I forgot what the name of the creator was, but they started to charge and they got a big backlash. They put a lot of their content behind a paywall. That's right. Yes. And so you were talking about this sort of space.

50:24Yeah. I think there are things that long form is better at, and I think there are things that are short form are better at. But from an advertiser's perspective, I think it depends on what the advertiser's outcome is. So just think about branded content in general, even in the podcast world. You've got one extreme, which is basically direct response advertising. AG1 subscriptions, where they take a cut of the subscription. And then you've got the other end, which is much more almost like you're playing in the B2B space, like acquired. And they're getting, each deal that those guys get is a big deal for them.

51:01They spend a lot of time nurturing those deals. They have a few deals, but those deals are pretty solid. And almost all of those guys who sign up stick with them. And then there's a whole range of things in between. So if you're trying to reach a small niche audience and have a really deep, stable connection, I think acquired, long-form type stuff, whether it's podcasts or otherwise, maybe YouTube videos, is probably better at creating a deeper, richer, more enduring long-term connection. For sure. If you're trying to do DR, maybe it doesn't matter because you just want to get that one conversion.

51:37Or maybe you're trying to do brand awareness and there it's really about just getting a larger type of funnel. So it's not about the niche. It's just like you want to reach as many people as possible to let them know about toothpaste or whatever it is that you're selling. Something that has really a broad, addressable market. And so as a creator, yes, you should think about your costs a lot and how much does it take and cost you to make a photo versus a short-form video versus a long-form video. But as you think about your advertiser deals that you work with, and if you are privileged enough to be able to be picky, you should understand what kind of business they are and what they're trying to get out of advertising and how much your content or the different types of content you could create align with those advertiser interests.

52:23And I think that's a level of sophistication that's hard if you're spending all of your time just trying to figure out how to make something that pops, which I get, which I totally get. I think you have to spend, have had spent some time in your life, which we did fortunately, sitting in those rooms with advertisers and understanding and empathizing with their position. Yeah. And I think once you can understand that, you can understand how they fit into your world. One of the things that we think from our side, because this is obviously a multi-sided marketplace, so primarily two-sided and then we're a platform, is in the world of branded content, that's the primary way that creators make money on Instagram.

52:57One of the interesting things is there's no measurement. There's so little measurement. Advertisers don't necessarily know what they're going to get. Yes, you can be like, go to momentoselements.com slash Adam and hopefully we can do the attribution that way. But for the most part, there's very little measurement. in that world my take is that larger names tend to get overpaid and smaller names get underpaid because the advertisers spend more based on intuition because they don't have numbers to go off of that's a distortion in the market that scares me because i feel like any distortion will inevitably get corrected at some point and we'll probably get blamed for it And so I want to figure out how we can help that, the whole industry move forward.

53:48That's one of the reasons why I like partner ads so much. It's not because they're a potential revenue stream for us, though they are, but because they allow branded content to have proper measurement. And if we do that, if more of this industry or more of the branded content ecosystem is measured, my hypothesis is that you will see dollars shift from the largest creators to more niche creators. You might sell more of whatever you're trying to sell by reaching 100 small creators than running one big check for the same amount of total money to one big creator. But right now you would never do that because it's impossible to manage.

54:28Can we help that through measurement, through connections, through the creator marketplace is I think something that we're still trying to crack. Could you explain partner ads? Yeah. So basically a partner ad works is you do what you would normally do. So you would, like who's one of your, oh, we talked about Canon before. So let's say Canon was like, we want you to make some content. We want to do some ads for you, with you for our cameras. You would make the creative and then you would make it so that they could use your creative as an ad to people who don't even follow you. And it just basically allows you to own the creative.

55:05The content is attributed to your account, but it can get distributed through our ad system. and so it gets all of the measurement of our ad system and all that infrastructure which helps advertisers understand demand understand demographics understand conversions because the bread and butter of our advertising business is not brand advertising though that's a good amount of money it's direct response advertising where measurement is everything and then Canon will know I wrote these guys a check what did I get for it and like that could be scary or that could be amazing because if you are, if they realize that they paid you, I'm making up random numbers now, $10 ,000 but they made$35 ,000, you know, that's, then you're worth more than you're getting paid.

55:57You got to increase our rate. Yeah, but you would never know unless we do this. So I love, I actually love that about Instagram because it makes the advertising more native to the platform, right? Like the advertising is creator. Oftentimes it's creators and sponsored posts, which is great because then it's like native advertising to the platform. I actually think that's where YouTube is behind right now. And I don't think it's the platform's fault. I actually think it's the, probably the ad industry at the moment where they're running TV spots on YouTube, where if you were running ads on YouTube with YouTube creators in the pre-roll that felt more native, I actually think there'd be more effective ads.

56:30And I think those are really effective on Instagram. I do think the more measurable advertising gets, the less it values general kind of brand lift and association with creators. That's true, but I think that's mostly true because brand lift is harder to measure. You can't measure it really, but there's like, I guess you can through like surveys. You just need a lot of scale to be able to do it without the air bars being so bonkers that it's not even worth doing. But to be clear, I mean, there's a lot of ad dollars right now on brand marketing with very little measurement. I mean, just think about how TV works.

57:03I mean there's measurement it's not no measurement but it's have you ever met someone who's a Nielsen house? no I have not I've never gotten that phone call I've never gotten the call I'd think I'd be a great Nielsen I would be terrible I actually have one question on paid partnership when we click like paid partnership or branded content but the advertiser doesn't boost the content and use it as sponsorship does anything happen in the ranking system to our content? nothing no no we don't I mean it would be really problematic if that decreased your reach because then we'd have people avoiding marking things as paid.

57:40And by the way, in some countries, it's law. You can get in real trouble in Germany, for instance, for getting paid and not marking something as paid. So much so that a lot of people in Germany, creators, mark things as paid that aren't paid. They're just worried that there might be something. Maybe they got a gift like a year ago and they're going to get in trouble. They do hashtag ad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious. But as you mentioned smaller creators, what are some sort of metrics or talking points that smaller creators could use to convince advertisers? And maybe it's agencies who are using this information, but how does that smaller creator get that deal?

58:15I think it's probably about being more clear about who your audience is and why that audience is disproportionately valuable to that advertiser.

58:28I don't love the example of supplements because there's so many shady actors in that world, but it's an easier example. If you only have a few thousand followers but they're really passionate and they're all about biohacking and health stuff, then they are way more valuable to a thorn supplement advertiser than the average person. And so you shouldn't just care as the advertiser about the number. You should care about how likely, in this case, in this hypothetical example, those followers are to want to buy your product. So it's about understanding your niche and why that niche is disproportionately valuable to that advertiser.

59:08It's probably the most straightforward way. Do you care if a creator is considered an Instagram creator? In the same way that I think, you know, YouTube creators have a brand to them, right? That's a YouTube creator. Or a TikToker. Or a TikToker. You guys are YouTubers. Yeah, we're YouTubers, right? I know. I wanted to say it a lot at some point. But do you care about creators being considered Instagram creators? I care about our cultural relevance, both to the general population and to creators. I don't think that we should ever do anything to discourage YouTubers or TikTokers who are primarily on those platforms from being successful.

59:48That would be literally just bad for our business. But I do care that there is a critical mass of creators that have an affinity for and a loyalty to our platform, which is one of the reasons why I care so much about small creators in general. I think it's way more practical to help a new generation of creators grow on your platform and therefore have some more affinity and loyalty to your platform than it is to pull someone who's had 15 years of success on YouTube and get them to switch their primary. That's just swimming upstream. That's another reason why I think small creators are super important and why we've been trying to do more and more to benefit them.

1:00:26but I think if we are only a secondary platform for most creators, that's probably a bad place to be in. Best case, best we can tell, we're the largest platform for creators, so there's the most creators active on our platform, but obviously we've talked about a couple of things where other platforms are better, but the sentiment is not quite as high. so people will probably hearing this as a creator and if you're upset about your reach you're probably going to think the sentiment is really bad that is true there is definitely a group of people who are really upset about reach it doesn't come it isn't like the over it doesn't overwhelm sentiment for the entire population it's in some sense a very loud and I'm not trying to throw any shade here but a very loud minority that we're trying to figure out how to address and we need to do better by but actually the average sentiment around Instagram for the average creator is quite high, but it's not quite as high in certain countries as some of the competition.

1:01:24And I'd like to close that gap. Yeah, I feel like, I'm curious, like, how do you get that next crop of creators?

1:02:03excited about Instagram? less data. So it's a little bit harder to break in. So we're trying to find the right balance. Make it possible for new talent to break out and grow while not losing so much, not having reach become so volatile that your follower count doesn't matter. And people say it doesn't matter on Instagram, but it really matters in a way that it doesn't matter nearly as much on some of the other apps. I think that's a challenge that creators have with short form content, no matter where it is, is building brand, right? If you're making long form content, it is difficult. But if someone chooses to spend 20 minutes with you, they will remember you tomorrow.

1:02:46There are times when with short-form content, because you can consume so much in such a short amount of time, that you may not actually remember the creator you just saw, even if you loved what you just saw. It feels like it served the purpose of entertainment for you, like that lean-back experience. I don't know if I agree. Yes, if you were going to compare someone who watched one 15-second video end-to-end and one 15-minute video end-to-end. So clearly you're going to have more memory, more affiliation with the 15-minute video. I don't know that that means that on average, the average short-term creator has a harder time building a brand because the average short-term video creator can make many more videos in the same amount of time for the same amount of money.

1:03:34So you might mean you get more at bats. I think it's what makes it harder to stand out. On the first impression? As you are surrounded, yeah. Yeah. I will say though, So I think about, and Colin and I talk about this, every platform needs model citizens, right? Because the younger crop that comes in, they need to see what success looks like. Totally. With YouTube, we have the Mr. Beast, the Ryan Trahan, the Michelle Carey. And right now, when I think about Instagram, I think about a short-form creator who has stood out quite a bit. I think about Haley. Yeah. Haley Bailey. She produces so much content.

1:04:05Unbelievable. The amount of content - On every platform. It's out of this world. She's not exclusive to us by any stretch of the imagination. Totally, yeah. That is an incredible feat, truly. But to put out that much, I think she is extremely recognizable. And what Colin's mentioning of building a brand on the platform. She's built an incredible brand. I think about Keith Lee as well, who has really long food reviews. I love these niches. Which is amazing. And I do think that there are some, you know, what I would consider model citizens emerging. They're not necessarily exclusive to the platform.

1:04:37But I'm curious if you have that feeling, if you have that sense of like, that's something that Instagram needs to inspire the younger crop. I think we need that. I think you need models to have other success stories for the newer creators to look up to. We do see that more creators have us as our primary platform than any other platform in all the off-platform surveys we do. So you're more likely, if you're a creator, to say Instagram is my primary than any other platform. But also, at the same time, every time we measure, the number of creators that use multiple platforms goes up because the creator community is getting more savvy.

1:05:13You don't want to have all of your risk in one basket. So I do think that that is a hard position to maintain long-term. But there is a certain amount of cachet and cultural relevance that comes with Instagram that we have to fight to maintain because I think that also can easily fall. So it does matter. It does matter that you have success stories to prove that you can realize your aspirations on the platform. Because if you can't see anybody that you can relate to who succeeded on the platform, you're not going to believe that you can. Some of the early success stories on Instagram from what I remember us building our career were a lot of the meme accounts or the aggregator accounts.

1:05:59And I know you recently made an announcement around originality and a commitment to originality. I was wondering if you could explain that. Controversial. Yeah. Going to get a lot of heat from the aggregators coming up. So I do want to separate memes and aggregators. Sure. Because you can be an original meme creator. There's a lot of great meme creators out there. So the idea behind originality is that we should make sure that more value, if we can, flows to the original creators that make something than those who find that content and then repackage it and aggregate it from other original content creators.

1:06:37And that if we don't do that, we will just erode more and more trust with the original content creator community, which will be bad for us over the long run. It'll manifest as negative sentiment, people leaving the platform. Maybe they stay on the platform, but they're quick to criticize us. Nobody defends us, and I think reputation matters. even though it might actually not be beneficial. It might be beneficial, but it might not, probably won't be beneficial to the business in the short run. So this is a classic challenge in running a business of short-term, long-term trade-offs. Are you willing to eat a short-term hit because you think you're going to be in a better place long-term, even if you might not ever be able to measure it?

1:07:17Because what you're, in this case, you're doing is you're reducing the risk of a negative outcome. And so if it doesn't happen, you never knew that it would have. So what we work on is defining originality. And there's different buckets. There's original. There's mixed original. So if I take your video and then I do a green screen on top and I talk about it, that's mixed original. And then there's unoriginal and mixed unoriginal. So I just take someone else's and I post it. Can we get good at classifying that content? And can we figure out how to responsibly privilege the original content. And I don't think we want to boost.

1:07:57I don't like boosts. If you just boost something, it's bad because it just tends to be opaque. It's a little bit like no one knows what's happening behind the curtain and it doesn't feel very transparent. So what we're trying to do is in some sense riskier is not recommend content from aggregators. So if you follow an aggregator because you love them and there are a lot of amazing aggregators out there, great. You'll see their content in your feed. If we think you're interested in it, we're not going to do anything to get between you and that content. If you're not seeing it, it's because we could be wrong, but we think something else is more interesting to you that you follow.

1:08:32But if we show you content from an aggregator, from an account you don't follow, then that's much more on us. And so I actually said this before, there's more opportunity and there's more responsibility. So if you see something shady from a friend of yours, that's on your shady friend. If we show you something shady from a random person, that's really on us. So there's more risk and more accountability, but there's also more opportunity. I think it is reasonable for us to say, we're not going to amplify. We're not going to recommend content from aggregators, but we are going to recommend content from creators because we are invested in creators over the next five or ten years.

1:09:13So let's just say, like practical example is a sports highlight aggregator posts a high school dunk. But the original creator of that video was one of that basketball player's friends who was filming it. Yes. They filmed it. It got reposted on a big sports account. Yes. So is the suggestion there that instead of showing it from the sports account, it would show it from the original post? That is one thing we do. We call that direct replace. Okay. So if we can find the original, then we just swap it out, which is pretty nuts. So it's almost like a reshare? Like would it still look like it's from the aggregator?

1:09:48No, no, no. He's just saying it would be the original video in your feed. Again, this is in a recommendation. It would be weird if it was just in the connected context. But you're just looking at stuff that we think you think are going to be interesting in the Reels tab. This aggregator found this amazing dunk. If we know, if we can find the original post of that dunk, we're just going to swap it out and show you the original. In the feed. Yeah. Got it. And how do you find that? Is that like the content ID system similar to YouTube? Yeah, very similar. So in our experience with content ID and like original content, specifically whether it's YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, most of our content is cut in a different way than we would cut it.

1:10:27It's meaningfully transformed. So it doesn't get picked up in a content ID system, right? It's a clip of us sitting with Mr. Beast, but there's now new B-roll on top of it. So that's not going to get picked up, right? The most viewed Colin and Samir videos on the internet are not made by us. Yeah, yeah. Right? I believe that. And by other people. And for us, in where we are in our business, I'm completely fine with that. That is more visibility for us. The internet is better at cutting clips from our videos than we are. There will be clips from this of you that are cut by other people, right? That are just crowdsourced.

1:11:01You know, and I don't really have a problem with that. I think that's okay. And it's hard to find the original source when - And we can't always find it. But mostly it will be transformed in some way, shape, or form. Yes. Right. But that's why we can't just rely on direct replace. So direct replace only gets us so far. What we look at is what percentage of recommendations, so what percentage of photos and videos that you're seeing from accounts you do not follow are original or unoriginal. And we want to grow the percentage that is original. There will always be recommendations that are unoriginal because we're never going to be perfect.

1:11:36And that's, I want to be clear. Like at our scale, it's just not possible. Doing the direct replace or that swap only gets you so far because maybe the original was posted on YouTube or was posted on TikTok. Then we can't know whose is the original. So what we look at is, does this account tend to post original content or does this piece of content look like an original piece of content? So you look at things like, how similar is this video to the last N videos that this account has posted? Aggregators tend to have much more variance. my stuff, my grid is boring as hell. It's just my mug over and over and over again.

1:12:14So it's not that hard for a classifier to tell that my account is posting original content. Or that any given video on my account is probably original if it's me again. Sorry if you follow me. Whereas if it's an aggregator, there's a lot more variance. And so it's much more likely that the classifier will predict that this thing is unoriginal. And if it does, we're not going to demote it from anybody who follows you, but we're not going to recommend it proactively to someone who doesn't follow you. And so we do this at the content and the actor level. And we want to let you know. So if we think you're a content aggregator, we want to let you know that.

1:12:54And we'll put that in account status so you can see, okay, you're non-recommendable, not because you post anything problematic, but because you're an aggregator and we're not recommending aggregators. And that way you can do something about it. Maybe you need to do more of your own spin on things. Add your B-roll, add your commentary. I mean, look, if you take my photo and you make it into a meme of me with some really mean comment on the top, that is original. Whether or not I like it. You may have just asked for that with that video. I get it anyway. You can see my DMs. It's a thing. So another thing that we're seeing specifically this week is Instagram tagging and classifying content as made with AI.

1:13:36Yes. And that is, you know, something that I noticed a week ago and I was like, huh, that's strange. This photo does not look like it was made with AI, but maybe it's, maybe they did some gen fill on Photoshop and posted it on here. There's probably something really light like that. Is that how that works? Like, and how does it know? It's just the metadata on the image. Just metadata. So we're trying to lean on industry standards here. So there's going to be more and more content that is generated with AI over time. And it's going to be more and more difficult to identify it. There is no way we're going to be able to programmatically identify everything that is posted on Instagram that did use AI as having used AI long term.

1:14:16So I want to be clear. The goal here is when we know for us to be transparent so that people can make educated decisions about what to believe and not. By the way, it might have no relevance because if it's just a funny video or a funny picture, it doesn't really matter if it's made with AI or not necessarily. So we're trying to lean on industry standards here. And so Adobe has, I forget what the name of the metadata property or attribute is, but they mark files that used AI in Photoshop as having used AI. And then we pick that up and we mark it. And some of the other apps are doing the same thing.

1:14:50What's happening is people are doing benign things in Photoshop that are technically using AI. It might not even be generative fill. It might be like, I don't know, maybe their stamp tool uses AI. Because AI is just a core technology. It doesn't mean totally fabricated image. And so it's getting marked because they're being conservative in what they're marking in the file. And then we're just respecting the file's mark, saying AI was used to make this. and then it's possible that the creator doesn't even know that it was AI in the tool that they used. So we have to figure this out because clearly this is frustrating and not the ideal experience.

1:15:29And I'm not sure where we're going to land because this isn't just an Instagram or a data issue. It's an industry issue. And I think if we do our own thing and everyone does their own thing, then you don't have an industry standard. I think the whole internet is less well off. it's a rapidly approaching problem I would say with the election it has to be so trusted in the event that something gets posted without that made with AI but it is in some way altered and it just wasn't picked up then you're in a real situation where people are believing something but that's also going to happen like right now if you make an image with a number of different of these diffusion models and a lot of them don't mark it in the metadata we don't have a way to tell.

1:16:16We can build classifiers to try to detect it looking at the typical types of artifacts you might see but that is an arms race and we will never have full coverage. I want to be super clear. There will be content on all platforms that is made by AI and is not marked as AI because that platform wasn't able to detect it because the person who made it specifically tried to avoid that. And that just means that yes, I think we should do our part to detect what we can, to label what we can. But people also just have to be discerning readers or consumers because this isn't an Instagram thing. This is an internet thing.

1:16:50You're going to have to assume that it's possible that someone made something using these technologies. That was, by the way, possible before gender of AI. It's just way more possible now. Yeah, it's way easier now. I think what makes it harder on Instagram is that Instagram is this wide array of content where I can open Instagram and see that, you know, one of my friends from high school is having a baby and then I can immediately go into like geopolitical issues and then immediately go into watching a creator that I like. And I think the context switching in my brain of what's truth and not truth or real and not real is harder in a platform where I'm consuming such a wide variety of what's serious, what's entertainment, what's comedy.

1:17:30No, I agree with that. I mean, the cognitive load in a platform where the content has more variation and not just substance, but like topic and how you should approach it. You know, how I should approach a video of my brother posts of his two-year-old girl is very different than how I should approach like a news clip from a, you know, I don't know about the election or about a war. So yes, I totally agree. And those can happen in a matter of, you know, seconds. They can be adjacent. They can be less than a second. Yeah. With that in mind, do you have any thoughts around, you know, like, I guess the impact on mental health, the impact on, you know, a young generation and how much they should or shouldn't be using the platform?

1:18:20I think parents know best for each kid. I'm a dad. I have three boys, but they're two young needs Instagram. They're eight, six, and four. And I think that platforms like Instagram can bring an immense amount of value to anybody, including kids or teens, I should say. But they can also be problematic, just like anything can. I think that looking at too many unrealistic images in a magazine when I was a kid also can be problematic, but it can also be inspiring. It depends on who I am and also where I am in that moment. Maybe the same magazine or the same platform or Instagram in this case could be really great for me today and could be really problematic for me tonight based on where I am emotionally right now.

1:19:03So the thing that we try to do is, one, make sure that we focus as much as we can on addressing parents' concerns. We get a lot of scrutiny and a lot of incoming compliance requirements, and we engage a lot with policymakers, and we're going to do our best to comply with local laws and make sure we're taking feedback from policymakers. But I care more about what parents think and what child experts think. And so we primarily try to prioritize our work based on those interests and then to build tools to empower them. So one of the things that we have built and that we're actually doubling down on right now is tools to help parents shape the experience into what they think is best for their kid.

1:19:44So maybe they want to have blackout periods where I don't want my kid using Instagram and the weekday evenings because it's homework time or I want to give my kid an hour limit. You know, how can we help them shape that experience without giving the teen a really strong incentive just to lie to their parents and to us? Because you could always pretend you're older than you are or have a second account that you don't tell your parents about. So it's a kind of a really difficult balance because if what we build for parents is too restrictive, teens are savvy. They'll just work around it. So we have to figure out how to do it in a way that can address parents' needs without pushing teens so far that they're just going to lie.

1:20:31I'm curious, on that note, the law that Ron DeSantis passed in Florida, when he passed that, I remember watching the news and comedians and commentators and people saying, wow, I'm on the far left and I can't believe I agree with something Ron DeSantis said in Florida, which is that you have to be above the age of 14 before you can use social media. You need your parents' permission at age 14 and 15. I was wondering, is that even realistic? Is that something that can be done? I mean, we can build it. Teens can lie. We will build it. I mean, we're looking to comply. I do think the situation in the States is complicated because now the States are doing their own thing.

1:21:07And the more variance there is, the harder it is for any platform to comply and actually execute well. and so you're going to have more and more mistakes and more and more things slip through the cracks. I think it would be good for there to be parental consent. I think, though, that has to be an industry-wide thing. It can't just apply to one platform or another. I think it would be good for it to be the same for all 50 states. I think we'll just make a lot less mistakes. I also think it would go way better if we get support from Apple and Google on the operating systems. It is much easier for me.

1:21:44I mean, I've got three kids. They've got three iPads. Each one has one. It's much easier for me to tell the iPad that this kid is born in 2016, this kid is born in 2017, this kid is born in 2020 when I first set it up than for every app to try and figure out how to do age collection, age verification, and age prediction on its own. And right now, I can ask my phone as an app developer, where is this person in the world right now to 10 feet? To listen to their microphone, to turn their camera on, but I can't ask for permission to know what their birthday is. And that's crazy. And so if we could do that, and if you could do not just age collection, but also parental control at the operating system or the app store level, you would have way less mistakes.

1:22:32I don't know if that's ever going to happen. So we have to do everything we can to predict age well, to build good parental controls, to balance these different equities that are in tension. And we will, and I think we do really well, but not as well as we can. We're going to have to get better and better and better. But right now, I'm worried that the industry as a whole is not headed in a direction where you're not going to have too much to slip through the cracks. Yeah. Bustwood, the boys is here to let you know that every college football Saturday, FanDuel is dropping profit boosts that can turn wins into bigger wins.

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1:23:27I want to talk to you about the future. I feel like you obviously have been on the ground here and involved with Facebook and Instagram. I think you'd have a good perspective on where things go in the future. Two questions for you about the future. The first has to do with TikTok. If in a year from now, TikTok is gone from the US, what does that mean for Instagram? I mean, I can't talk too much about this one. In general, I worry about a world where more and more platforms are banned in more and more countries. And countries and governments use that stick as a way to push their own agendas. The vast majority of our business is outside of the US.

1:24:11so it would I think drive more attention not only to Instagram but to YouTube and other platforms but it is a step in a more and more fragmented internet which I think is probably bad overall to be clear it could maybe get sold and there's other paths here I don't want to guess about what's going to happen and so without speaking to the specific ban and TikTok here in the US I do worry about a more and more fragmented internet I'm curious what you think and I don't even know how much you could say but like what is next for social media in general on this wave because there's been all of these markers right of like we have Vine, we have really short video we have long form video we have stories, we have all of these different Vine was a little too early way too early we have all these different markers of like oh here's a new instrument we can use even text right with Twitter and threads it's like here's a new instrument where we can communicate What are we on the precipice of?

1:25:11There's going to be a bunch of different things, and I don't pretend to have a crystal ball. I do think that the current paradigm shifts will continue for the foreseeable future, so for at least five more years. More and more sharing is going to shift from feed-based formats to messaging-based formats. You mentioned Snapchat before. Snapchat is not a Stories product. Yes, they have Stories. the vast majority of sharing on Snapchat is in messages. There are way more photos and messages shared on Instagram in a given day than posted to stories. And there are way more photos and videos posted to stories than posted to feed.

1:25:49Yet people think of us as a feed app. So you're going to see that continue to shift. And I think that's interesting for a number of different reasons. I do think video has not fully saturated yet. I think you're going to see mobile video continue to grow, probably primarily driven by short-form video. But what you're really seeing, I think, is mobile video eating into TV's market share. So we talk a lot about Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, but the truth is we all exist in a much broader ecosystem. In the US, the average family watches five hours of TV. In Western Europe, it's three. In India, I think it's three or four.

1:26:27So I think you're going to see video continue to grow. So that's kind of a tailwind for digital creators like yourself. I do think you're going to see I don't know how or I don't know exactly what it'll look like but if you think about every five years ago there seems to be some big shift in how people share that manifests as some combination of a new format or a new channel so moving away from SMS or Reels and TikTok or before that Stories which was pioneered by Snap, I think originally invented by Kakao. I think we'll probably see one of those in the next five years. It's probably facilitated by all of this generative AI.

1:27:13I think that a lot of this stuff that we're looking at now in that space will be a little bit cringeworthy in five years because it's so new, but that's kind of what happens and what's exciting about our new technologies, people are just trying things out. And I think we'll also see more and more, this is more further out, I don't know how the social networks are going to evolve in a world where you've got more and more sort of ambient not ambient awareness but more and more time is going to shift to this format right like right now we've got the Ray-Ban metas which obviously you know about which by the way have been doing really well and I think the sleeper feature on those is showing up like socially too like for me as I go out and I'm like we'll bring them out and I'm like oh that's cool you're enjoying this experience and sending me videos and photos after the sneaky feature about this, I think, is the speakers and the mic.

1:28:01Yeah. I do think people are sleeping on this. I wore them for a full day the first time I tried them. Yeah. And by the end of the day, my honest thought, because I was skeptical. I was like, I was around for Google Glass. Oh, yeah. Snapchat Spectacles, like all the above. But after wearing these for a day, my first thought was these could potentially replace my iPhone down the line. A long time from now. In a long time. But it was the first glimpse of like, oh, this product, I got really used to just communicating out loud, which felt a little funny because I was just walking around talking. But the video quality is incredible.

1:28:38The audio quality is incredible. And the perspective is very unique. So I think these are, yeah. The mic is also sneaky good because it's in the nose bridge. So it's closer to your mouth. so it ends up being better with maybe less expensive hardware than like a fancy ear ear pod because it's physically closer to your mouth so I mean I liked I mean I don't think Marquez was the first one to talk about it this way but I kind of liked his framing when he did that video about how all of these virtual reality headsets are trying to come at the future from this one direction with this you know large piece of hardware on your face but it does everything and then these are trying to come at it from the other end which is like alright they don't there's no screen right So we can't show you an image.

1:29:24You can't see a notification. But there's going to be more reliance on voice. Obviously, LLMs are really making more audio and voice-driven interfaces much more practical and much more human. It's coming at it from the other side. And so where is it going to meet in the middle? But it's like a lot of physics challenges, right? Batteries are hard to make small. So how do you have a screen that you can see through? These are like wild interesting network challenges. People are taking swings in this sector, obviously. We saw it with Humane. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like taking swings of like, maybe this is how a wearable works.

1:30:03Because like the concept of a screen, like this plus something like that may be kind of interesting. Yeah. So that I could then engage with a screen. But who knows where this goes in the next couple of years. But I do find this to be one of the most compelling pieces of technology I've engaged with. The thing that's going to be really interesting to me is I think in three to seven years, you're going to see things that are, for lack of a better analogy, halfway between that and a Quest or a Vision Pro. They're not going to be as slick and you're not going to be as comfortable wearing them, but they're going to do more of the things.

1:30:35And that'll be interesting because the early adopters will kind of dictate that period. But then in another three to five years, when you can get to something that feels as natural to wear as that, and even that's still too heavy, that does more of what a quest does. Then things that get really interesting. And what is Instagram in that moment? Because if our core jobs are to connect people around creativity, so it's to connect with friends and connect with your interests, but we come from a visual heritage and the primary interface is actually voice, what do we, how do we evolve? We talked a lot about cultural relevancy of Instagram.

1:31:17If Instagram in five years loses its relevance, what do you think went wrong? We probably just moved too slow. When people ask me what my biggest concerns are, they almost always ladder up to this idea of the world evolving faster than we can keep up. So as you hire more and more people, there's more overhead. You move more slowly. As there's more and more scrutiny, there's more and more risk mitigation functions and processes. You move more slowly. As you get more heavily regulated, you move more slowly. If you become too short-term focused on short-term revenue, you move more slowly. You hold on to the past.

1:32:08So it's almost always the reason why I'm worried about the thing is I think the world is going to change faster and faster. We've seen that for all of human history, particularly in technology. The rate of innovation has just been increasing. And I think the most likely thing for any platform of our scale is that eventually we will just move slower than the world and the world will move away and we'll be left in the dust. And so what that looks like is harder to predict, but I think if it happens, I put a lot of money on that's why it happens. Well, Adam, I know we have to get you out of here.

1:32:46I don't know. I got to do my H review. You got to go. Yeah. You got to get to a meeting. Thanks so much for hanging out. This was such a blast. It was really fun. I like, I like, I'd seen some of your content before, but I went real deep over the last two days and I'm now like a genuine fan. Oh, great. So you have now, you've got one more fan you can talk to your advertisers about. Well, thank you for coming on the show. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And if you guys have more questions, just DM Adam, I guess. You might as well. I get it at Masseri. On Monday, I go into those DMs. I go in the request folder and I try to answer a couple.

1:33:16But I do like that you do AMAs every Friday. Every Friday. I don't know when I'm going to do it today. Actually, if you do have a question, you can ask me a question. For sure. For sure. Actually, now that I follow you on Instagram, if you ask a question, it'll bubble up to the top of my AMA so you're more likely to get answered. Hey, well, we'll ask a question now. Although we did just ask a lot. Yeah, we just asked. Do I need to pay for meta-verified? All right. realizing we didn't touch that but that's all right i'll ask you an ama for the next time for the next time all right thanks guys thanks adam