Why Sam Altman Spent $100M on 10,000 Viewers

14:23Colin Rosenblum:I don't think so.

14:24Samir Chaudry:You don't think so? No, I think, you know, YouTube specifically, their DNA is like, you, we incentivize you to make what is cool and we will have partnerships

14:34Colin Rosenblum:with you to keep you on this platform. I don't see why they would.

14:39Samir Chaudry:Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I don't think so. Number two, media industrial strategy. This is really interesting. This deal signifies technical superiority is no longer enough to win the AI race. Narrative control is now the core product requirement. I agree with this one. That's exactly what I just said. I think that is fully true. And the last thing it says here is a shift that we're going to see is media as a loss leader. I think this is what I was saying as well around like OpenAI has stated that TPBN is not intended to be a profit center. So that means the show itself has no intention of generating revenue.

15:16Samir Chaudry:This 11-person team is not responsible for generating revenue themselves. Yeah.

15:21Colin Rosenblum:I mean, entertainment as a marketing strategy look no further than Apple TV Plus. Yeah, exactly. Like reportedly losing over a billion dollars annually. Right. Look, it's entertainment as marketing. Yeah. And I think that TPPN signals a move in the creator economy where now that is a, as you were saying, it's a possible outcome.

15:47Samir Chaudry:And it's not like it's not happening inside our own industry, Mark Rober and Crunch Labs. I would assume, though, like his YouTube videos are profitable, but they don't really -

15:57Colin Rosenblum:Yeah, I think that's the difference is that a lot of YouTube creators have started media first. Yeah. There's a system for making media profitable. Right. It's allowed us to intimately get to know our audiences and build our communities. And then there's the possibility that you can launch a product. Whereas OpenAI and a lot of these companies are starting product first. And then they have a media marketing community building problem.

16:19Samir Chaudry:Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about what this means for creators. Because I think when we went there and spent time with them, I don't think this should be overlooked. The amount of influence these guys created in a short amount of time and with a very specific group of people. Now, before we go any further, I do think it's important to note these guys' backgrounds. So both of them are startup founders through and through. John started a company called Soylent. He's been in and around the startup world in the past. Important to note that he's actually been a part of Y Combinator, and Sam Altman invested in one of his companies.

16:52Samir Chaudry:And then John became a YouTuber. The first time that I came across John Coogan was as a technology YouTube creator who's making video essays. Jordy is also a startup guy. And one of his most recent projects was running a creator agency where he was pairing creators with brand deals. So important to note that these guys, A, come from a startup background. They know how to build a product. They also know the world of technology and business. John has a lot of experience with content and YouTube. And Jordy has a lot of experience with brands and how brands engage with media properties. This all gave this incredible mix of building a very successful media property.

17:31Samir Chaudry:First, let's just talk format. So John and Jordy started this project thinking they were launching a podcast. And that's what they did. They started a podcast. They started recording once a week. Then they started recording twice a week. Then they started recording three, four, and five days a week. And then realized they wanted to experiment with live. and i think that to me like that decision is monumental the decision to go this isn't a podcast this is a daily live show um podcasts are a dime a dozen right now everybody has a podcast it is impossible to get someone to listen to your podcast but when you change the positioning and the narrative of what a podcast is quote unquote what they did exceptionally they made it look like TV.

18:19Samir Chaudry:They made it look like SportsCenter or like news. They invested in the branding of it.

18:24Colin Rosenblum:It tells a story of authority immediately.

18:28Samir Chaudry:Immediately. They wore suits every day. Like they made a brand out of this daily live show that looked familiar to legacy television. That neo-trad media thing that you mentioned, I think is becoming more important as our worlds are combining, right? Like it's hard for me to understand. You know, a great example, like awesome podcast, Madeline RG, her show, I don't remember what it's called, but she sits in the front seat of her car with a mic and talks to the camera. That feels very new media. That feels like creator. That feels from an audience perspective, an intimacy that has been what YouTube has promised.

19:11Colin Rosenblum:Yeah.

19:12Samir Chaudry:But when you look broader at the world as these worlds are combining, when I can see something that looks familiar, but it's done in a new, fun way, I can understand it immediately. Like if I don't know Madeline, I don't know if I can immediately understand what the show is about of her sitting in the front seat of her car.

19:31Colin Rosenblum:I do think we are saying familiar to older audiences. Yeah, that's a good point. Because I think some of these formats that are more traditional are unfamiliar. They're less familiar to younger audiences. Yeah. You know, I think about it fully in the context of when I am explaining to my parents or even someone our age, Sam Altman's age, we grew up on TV and traditional media and it comes with authority.

19:57Samir Chaudry:So I think then what I'm saying is that's specific to business media too also because business media has not seen so much new. like new media and business media have not intersected yet really except for in this

20:13Colin Rosenblum:context and maybe a few others yeah so as a creator it it is important to think about what message are you sending visually within a split second of someone watching you and does it matter does it matter you know if you're madeline rg i don't think her audience wants her at a tv desk no no no talking about the things she's talking about there's a reason she's in that setting whereas tbpn i think the audience does want that experience of news and authority

20:47Samir Chaudry:the other thing that they did that i thought was so interesting the first 50 episodes had no guests it was just about them too and then they even when they went live and started having guests the first 90 minutes was always just john and geordie talking i think this is something i'm noticing and the world of podcasting, the world of content, is that it is no longer at all a competitive advantage to book guests on a show. Like almost any, like not anybody, but so many creators can book guests on a show. People will come on your show. People want to come on your show. There was a time where there was a low supply of podcasts.

21:24Samir Chaudry:So getting a guest was like a really special thing. But even if you look at someone like Mark Zuckerberg, who's been on our show, like he'll make the rounds and go on a bunch of shows. So it's just not a good long-term strategy. Yeah. And even something we've been thinking about is when we do interviews, it's like this very big ask for a collaboration. The most successful shows today are definitely collaboration based, but have a very small ask. So Subway takes, hey, come do a take for 15 minutes with me. Trackstar, which we've talked about before. Hey, come do this music trivia show for 30 minutes with me.

21:59Samir Chaudry:TPBN, I've been on it three, four times. Hey, do a hit from wherever you are. Join via Zoom from wherever you are for 25 minutes. Very simple ask for the guest. And the last thing is just that live is seemingly becoming more and more important in this era of the greater economy. I think both from a perspective of content is getting out faster. Clips are getting out faster. It's source material for people to clip. It's appointment viewing. It's every day. It's you are flooding feeds when you are live. Yeah.

22:35Colin Rosenblum:People are opening their phones every single day. They're opening their feeds. Yeah. And you're either there or you're not. And if you can make reels at a very consistent daily basis, great. But if you're only making an episode of your work once a week, you're essentially non-existent.

22:54Samir Chaudry:Yes, what we've been talking about is a weekly cadence even a cadence. I know we're a weekly show here with this podcast, but I've been noticing what can I latch onto from a weekly habit perspective. It's actually much harder than the shows that I think are extremely relevant right now that are showing up daily across my feeds or creators who are showing up daily across my feeds. And that's overwhelming as a creator.

23:19Colin Rosenblum:It's overwhelming, yeah. I mean, I will watch Jon Stewart on The Daily Show every week. I won't watch it necessarily when it airs. I won't watch it always the day after. Sometimes I miss it. But what I don't miss is Subway takes every single day. It's in my feed every day. I see TBPN when I open Twitter. Every single day, even when I'm not looking for it.

23:41Samir Chaudry:Yeah.

23:41Colin Rosenblum:So from a brand perspective, they're hyper present to me.

23:44Samir Chaudry:Now to open up the aperture and talk about more than just TBB ad, I think live from the audience's perspective is much more interesting. I am almost allergic to a like really well edited video right now. I like can't, I don't want it. I just want to see something real. and we're starting to see an uptick of live across everything. Mr. Beast, about a week and a half ago, did this 50 streamers trapped in a box, which first of all is rooted in all people who go live all the time, which is why it was such a big video for him. They have the biggest fandoms. They are so in touch with their audiences.

24:25Samir Chaudry:But he did the finale live on YouTube and a million people watched that concurrently live. Yeah.

24:33Colin Rosenblum:And he was also asking the live viewers to chime in and vote in polls that dictated what happened in the video. I voted for one of them. It was at the time half a million people voted for what would happen next in the video. And a million people, like you said, were watching. I thought that was unbelievable. And I actually thought a big moment for YouTube and YouTube streaming and YouTube UI that he was able to do this in this way that felt very native to the platform. It felt very comfortable. I'm not a traditional live viewer on YouTube, but I was able to take part in it seamlessly.

25:11Samir Chaudry:So what you just said is really important. Take part in it. There's a couple of reasons live makes sense and some of them may feel more obvious than others. The first one I think is the messiness of live. I actually think the messiness and the real-time nature of live is so much more exciting to watch as an audience right now. I actually kind of want to see you stumble a little bit. I want to see you think. I want to see some of the pauses. I want the realness because we're in a world of hyper-produced, of really slick AI-generated content, of great graphics. Like this is the antithesis is live.

25:50Samir Chaudry:I just want to see something real. I want to connect in real time. I want to feel like I'm doing something with other people. I want to experience something at the same time as other people that creates community inside jokes. TBBN has done a great job with that. They wrote down every inside joke that came up and made sure that it was a part of their community during the build of the show. And then the interactivity. The fact that there's a relationship with even the term chat. the fact that I can say something and it will impact what's on the screen, I think my expectation as an audience member moving forward is almost always to interact with my media, to play with it.

26:28Colin Rosenblum:I think there's another reason, though, that live is taking off.

26:30Samir Chaudry:What is it?

26:31Colin Rosenblum:It's that we don't want to give you our full attention. We don't want to have to give you our full attention. Wow. And live content does not ask for that. You can chime in. It plays in the background. You can still be on your phone if you're watching on your TV or your computer. I don't have to watch everything that happens for me to understand it. And I think like, we don't have time for full focus anymore. At least in these internet settings, it's harder.

27:01Samir Chaudry:Yeah, that's a good point. That's a really good point. I remember living in my college house and SportsCenter was always on. And you'd kind of plug in and out of it. Drop in whatever. Drop in. Oh, top 10's on. We'll look at that for a second. What are they talking about? Oh, cool highlights. Cool. And then just move on.

27:16Colin Rosenblum:Even a live sporting event, which is the ultimate tune in moment, is formatted in a way that if you miss a few minutes, generally the broadcaster will catch you back up with some hype. They're like, yeah, here's what happened.

27:28Samir Chaudry:You know, I remember when we used to work in sports, you would always talk to athletes about their off the field life. And what were the what was the equivalent of the highlights? like if on the field you have the live broadcast and then you have clipped highlights and that's how people know who you are if you're on youtube and you don't have the backing of espn or someone to produce that what is your source material and what are the highlights which is actually pretty ahead of its time yeah we're talking about that in like 2012 that's what's happening here right is like there's live source material that's essentially the game and less probably less people into the super bowl or something like that we'll watch the game then we'll watch the highlight that ends up on, you know, Twitter or Instagram.

28:14Samir Chaudry:And I think this, this world of clipping is what is, is playing with what you just said. I don't need your full attention on the live. Look back at TPBN, seven to 10 ,000 people watching a live. That's not what it's about. It's about the clips and the highlights that are generating upwards of 200 ,000 each clip. So I don't even need your full attention there. Just could you watch a clip or two? Yeah. You know, then I'm good. And again, I think we talked about him in our last episode.

28:42Colin Rosenblum:It's not even could you watch a clip or two. It's my clips will find you. You don't have to do anything.

28:47Samir Chaudry:That's true, yeah. You can't avoid my clips. There's no asking. Yeah, if I'm posting 30 a day, you cannot avoid my clips. Yeah. And from a quantity perspective, the number one streamer right now on Kik is highly controversial streamer, Clavicular, who we talked about. He put out this report from Kik, Clipping. that shows that in the last 30 days, 1 ,600 clippers have clipped 69 ,550 videos out of his live stream to generate 2.2 billion views. Wow. That's overwhelming. So he's going live and providing source material and then people are clipping. And of course, the clipping economy is rooted in like, if I generate viewership, I make money.

29:43Samir Chaudry:It's the gig economy of our world. But this is the model right now for creators. I think for a lot of creators, especially who make talk content or who have a craft they can do, or we're seeing an uptick of this. I mean, there's countless TPBN copies right now because of this model of I got to get out of post-production. I can't be shooting something, editing it for two weeks. It's got to be incredible if you're doing that. It has to be incredible if you are taking the time to edit something. So instead, let me forget about editing. Let me go live, have other people clip it, have my team clip it.

30:21Samir Chaudry:And then once my live stream is done, I'm done. But I exist on the internet. Yeah. That's the model we're seeing right now. And I think that will only increase for creators. Yeah.

30:33Colin Rosenblum:I don't know if I see it turning the other direction ever, potentially. I think I can still see there are still people who are capable of making the great thing, who are going to make the great thing.

30:46Samir Chaudry:Right. The live thing is very specific. And there was an article that I came across on Twitter that I think we should talk about, which was about the fact that views are dead. and virality is dead. That there is no deep connection to large viewership or we may or may not see increase. We may or may not see massive influencers, massive creators come about again because the notion of virality is dead. And the alternative to virality is what he calls niche maxing, which is essentially what TPBN did. They went, here is a very small audience that we're going to own. They said it on our show. They said our cap is 200 ,000 tech employees and people interested in technology and business.

31:32Samir Chaudry:If we ever have 10 million subscribers, we did something wrong. Yeah,

31:37Colin Rosenblum:I mean, virality used to be a monocultural moment. If you think back to when something would go viral, primarily on YouTube, and that person would end up on the Ellen show the next day, like the damn Daniel kid or something. Right. Like it was just so clear. Here is something with an enormous amount of viewership, unlike anything else that came out yesterday. Nothing got the viewership that this specific video did. Okay. This person is viral. And that's just not the case anymore because everything is viral. Well, right. Like we've gotten to the point where on any given day in any given community, there are so many videos that are surging in viewership or just historically have reached a point where they have mass viewership.

32:27Colin Rosenblum:Less things stand out.

32:30Samir Chaudry:I agree with you that nothing is viral because everything is viral or everything like everybody lives on a different internet basically now. I will say sitting here on the Wednesday in between two Coachella weekends, Justin Bieber's performance was viral right i if you missed it leads to what we're saying like it was live yes it was not only live it was like youtube live like he was live on youtube and on youtube while he was live and there was so much there to to why this was culturally relevant even the fact that he was sitting on a stool. So, okay, if you didn't watch this, we should explain it.

33:15Samir Chaudry:But he headlined, it was highly anticipated. People haven't seen him perform in a long time. He's got new albums. He's also out of his record deal. There was a lot there. He started out in like a pretty minimal, cool set, just performing by himself. And then in the middle of the set, pulled up a stool to a laptop, went on YouTube and started pulling up his old YouTube videos and singing along to them. And then after he was singing along to them, he also just started pulling up cool YouTube videos. Like he watched -

33:44Colin Rosenblum:Well, just old memes. Like he pulled up Deez Nuts. Yeah, double rainbow. Pulled up double rainbow.

33:49Samir Chaudry:He pulled up videos of him falling like into the stage. He just browsed YouTube. And there was a really raw realness to it. There was like buffering. There was him collaborating with chat, like being like, chat, what do you think we should watch? What should I sing?

34:05Colin Rosenblum:It was - incredibly intimate and in front of 150 ,000 people. And the camera that they had was a super wide camera sitting basically on his laptop. So you are essentially in between him and his screen. I feel like new world intimacy is getting between someone and their screen.

34:25Samir Chaudry:Yes.

34:26Colin Rosenblum:Like even just starting a relationship with someone, if you can break them away from their screen and have them spend time with you, you are intimate with that person. And that's what it felt like. It was like we are there looking at him in between his screen, just watching him pull up old videos.

34:40Samir Chaudry:Now, there was a lot of people. So I wrote an article about this and posted it on X and on LinkedIn. And a lot of people have responded to my article about like why he did that. Like for me, I talked about the art of it and the nostalgia of it and the feeling that like we're all we were all born into this world of like going down Internet rabbit holes. And it felt like this recognition that he was this young internet kid and he's born from the internet and born from YouTube, which I thought was really cool. But a lot of people were also commenting that like he sold his catalog so he doesn't own his music.

35:15Samir Chaudry:And so his only way of performing those songs was through playing them on YouTube in like short snippets. I also saw something that said that wasn't true. Yeah. So I don't know. We talk about this and bring this up because it's in the same vein as TPBN. It is like what we crave now is this live, messy, bring me into the world. Like that was what was exciting about it. And people called it lazy, which I think is crazy. I think that's nuts. That's nuts. I thought it was like totally like one of the sharpest things to do in that context. And one of the most contextually aware of where we are on the internet right now.

35:54Colin Rosenblum:Yeah, I think it was the most interesting thing he could have done. Yeah. I was at our local coffee shop the day after and we were just talking about it and a woman said to me, I was disappointed. I wish he brought out dancers.

36:05Samir Chaudry:Yeah. It's like, no.

36:06Colin Rosenblum:Why? No. He's always done that. Everyone had dancers.

36:09Samir Chaudry:But that's the equivalent of what we're talking about of this moment on the internet. There's no risk in that anymore. It's more interesting if there's that dead air. We have to watch something slightly risky. I think we do because it's so, everybody can do everything. Everybody can make those slick graphics. Everybody can, but there's a couple of ingredients here.

36:30Colin Rosenblum:It's like, everyone can't go to the moon and back, Samir, which is why that was also interesting.

36:36Samir Chaudry:That was also viral. And it was also - Was that viral? Do you think everybody knew about that?

36:40Colin Rosenblum:The Artemis launch? I would assume everyone on the planet knew about that.

36:46Samir Chaudry:Yeah. Yeah. So virality is not dead. It's just in very specific instances. I think virality from like net new creators, I understand the premise that I don't know if we'll see another mega creator break out in any time soon, but I think that's kind of liberating. I think there's a liberation to the intention is not to play for the biggest audiences, play for a very specific audience right now and to be more real and show a bit more messiness. I also think on the note of not seeing another mega influencer, part of what I wrote about Bieber and my understanding of this performance was there was an acknowledgement here, or I felt it, that there was an acknowledgement that he is the last honest internet sensation.

37:37Samir Chaudry:and I explained this to you a bit just that like when he came about 19 years ago and he uploaded a YouTube video 19 years ago no one knew what was possible when you upload a YouTube video at all like no one knew what that meant and what I wrote here is we all know too much now everybody knows what the upload button can do you can become a millionaire even a billionaire you can become famous and your life can change overnight the heaviness of that knowledge has changed what people create. When you're aware of the outcome, you optimize it. You don't share your craft. You share your well-thought-out product.

38:12Samir Chaudry:The thing you make becomes strategic, not honest. And that's why so much of what we see online feels the same. It's not that people aren't talented. It's just the awareness of what's possible has smothered the instinct to just share something real. I think live is creating this setting where you have no choice but to share something real. And I think Justin Bieber was the first true, like truly we learned, you upload a YouTube video and you can have all your dreams come true. Ever since that moment, we've all known way too much about what it means to upload something. And it has limited the authenticity of what gets uploaded.

38:53Colin Rosenblum:I mean, I think some of our best work because of this reason happened in the first few years.

39:02Samir Chaudry:Yeah, of course. We talked about that whole time.

39:03Colin Rosenblum:We just didn't know what we were doing. We weren't playing to any strategy. We weren't playing to any expectations. We had no idea. Yeah.

39:12Samir Chaudry:Okay, we've covered a lot of ground here.

39:14Colin Rosenblum:So we're not going to talk about Bieber for the next 40? Because I could.

39:17Samir Chaudry:I mean, we basically, we covered a lot on him. So let's close the loop here. The TBBN deal is a massive one for our industry. and I think it actually sets like a new precedent in our world again on both ends of the spectrum one that if you're a creator a storyteller you authentically know how to grab attention online right now how to tell a great story how to narratively compel an audience you have become exceptionally valuable and I think as creators you need to look at yourself and go hmm am I in the media business or am I just a really good storyteller or am I both meaning am I looking for partners to jump on my show and help me make my show?

40:01Samir Chaudry:Or am I actually looking for ways to express my storytelling to help someone else in their problem? And both opportunities exist now at the same time. And that's a really interesting moment. I think we will see more acquisitions of both media properties and creator groups, but I think we'll see a lot more that are angled towards you're a creative agency, not a media property. Yep. Those are the outcomes I think we're about to see. And I think this deal sets precedent for some very high valuations for creators to join bigger companies if they want to. And then from a creator's perspective, I think it's all about understanding right now that everything is good.

40:42Samir Chaudry:We've talked about this before. It's all like, we live in an era of abundance. Everyone's good at making videos. Everything's good. What is a story that only you can tell? Back to Bieber, only he can tell that story of showing himself singing at 12 years old on YouTube. That's only his story to tell. If he brought out dancers, you're like, cool, another pop star can bring out dancers. But he did the thing that only he could do. Go on YouTube and be a YouTube kid.

41:07Colin Rosenblum:Yeah, and create a real moment.

41:09Samir Chaudry:And create a real moment. So I think as creators, we have to think about what format puts us in a situation where we're creating real, honest moments.

41:17Colin Rosenblum:Yeah. And what's your source material? What are your highlights? It's hard.

41:23Samir Chaudry:It's a new world. There is so much out there right now. The last thing I'll say is, who are you talking to? Who is the specific group? Are you niche maxing? Are you actually really clear on who you talk to? Because I think that's getting increasingly more important.

41:46Colin Rosenblum:Can we talk about something that's actually kind of exciting that's relevant? Yeah, sure. It's a headline that I... Have we not been talking about things that are exciting? No, no. We're kind of at the end here, but... Okay.

41:53Samir Chaudry:Tell me.

41:54Colin Rosenblum:There's a headline that I think people may have missed, which is that YouTube's rolling out something initially internally called Stations, which is its version of fast channels. So these are 24-7 linear streams that are made from existing YouTube videos on your channel. So essentially creators will be able to program their own linear tv channels and turn into 24 7 television so if you have a big back catalog this is actually great for you because you can do compilations best of you can do bts behind the scenes and it just it goes along with this trend of a rise in people wanting to sort of lean back again and not necessarily lean in it goes fully

42:43Samir Chaudry:with what you said of being background TV. Yeah, I don't want to give you my full focus. Yeah, yeah. Like I just want to have it on.

42:52Colin Rosenblum:I just want to put Mr. Beast's videos on in the background and let him go.

42:57Samir Chaudry:It's super interesting. Yeah, I think - I mean, I would sign up for this for sure. I would do a fast channel. Oh, 100%, I think this is interesting. I was thinking about it. Like our catalog of interviews are really interesting, but I don't think you could play the full three hour interviews on a fast channel. I think you'd have to do, like we'd have to cut them to 15 to 20 minute bits like a compilation that's running don't

43:17Colin Rosenblum:you think yeah well what a what a cool future if on that fast channel we could also decide to go

43:23Samir Chaudry:live yeah totally i and eventize that live i totally agree i i think it's you know youtube

43:31Colin Rosenblum:people say YouTube replaced TV, but this would actually be, I think YouTube replaced some time that people spent watching TV. But if fast channels were to take off on YouTube, that's a scenario where between YouTube TV and fast channels, they really are replacing television. Yeah, you're right. In a real way.

43:54Samir Chaudry:Yeah, it's definitely cool. Those are our thoughts on the mega deal that we saw between OpenAI and tppn as well as this increasing importance of live streaming across the internet would love to hear your thoughts we are also considering experimenting with some live ourselves but we will also just be live in person on may 28th at press publish la seats are filling up if you want to come press publish dot la and you can actually see us live like like there's no screen we're just there well there will be a screen but it'll be behind us but we are there you're making this

44:27Colin Rosenblum:confusing.

44:28Samir Chaudry:Just if you want to come hang out, we got Press Publish LA, Hollywood Creator Summit May 28th, www.presspublish.la. Does anyone say www.? You made it sound like we were like holograms. I am fully rambling at this point. So just thank you if you're still here. Comment if you're listening on Spotify. And we'll see you next week.