YouTube, Meta and the case of the Infinite Scroll

0:00Samir Chaudry:One of the most significant conversations in the last decade about the creator economy just happened in a courtroom in California.

0:08Colin Rosenblum:All right, we have breaking news for you. A jury in California has just found tech giants Meta and YouTube liable in a landmark social media addiction trial. The jury found both companies liable for negligence and failure to warn, saying that these companies did design their apps to be addictive for young kids.

0:26Samir Chaudry:This is a real bellwether case, which was brought by a now 20-year-old woman. She's 20 years old now. She's only identified as KGM. And she had accused the social media companies of creating products as addictive as cigarettes or digital casinos.

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1:02Samir Chaudry:What this says is that social media sites or apps can cause personal injuries. So look out for similar cases in the future. This is enormous news. So for all of us who have built a career in the creator economy or uploading to these platforms, this can have significant impacts on what happens next. So we're going to talk about what happened in this case. We're also going to talk about what this could mean for the future of the creator economy. Welcome to this episode of The Colin and Samir Show.

1:35Samir Chaudry:All right, so let's just bring everyone up to speed. If you missed this in the news this week, let's bring you up to speed with exactly what happened and what we know. So there was a plaintiff, it goes by the name KGM, we don't know her name, but began using social media at age six and basically came forward with some alleged harms of anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia, and self-harm ideation based on the platforms Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, and Snap. Basically suggesting she had been caused harm by these platforms. In the trial, the platform features that were called out were infinite scroll, algorithmic recommendations, beauty filters, and engagement loops.

2:24Samir Chaudry:And the jury findings were that the platforms were negligent in their design and operation. They had a failure to warn users and the platforms were a direct causation of harm. Importantly to note that TikTok and Snap actually settled before the trial. They settled this before it actually went to trial. So it was just YouTube and Meta. And I think avoided a lot of the press. I think they did. Yeah, we're talking about them, but not a lot of people are talking about them. The headlines are YouTube and Meta, which the settlement shows that they knew this would be a headline that they were a part of, and they didn't want to be a part of it.

3:00Samir Chaudry:So the damages that are paid are$3 million to the plaintiff. 70 % of that is paid from Meta, and 30 % of it is paid through YouTube. The plaintiff's lawyer said after the jury decided this is that they failed to operate their platform in a reasonably prudent fashion, and that was a direct cause of harm. So this is a really big deal. This is a big deal because for the first time ever, the platforms are actually being held accountable for their product design, not just the content that's on the platform. And the suggestion here is that they're inherently addictive.

3:45Colin Rosenblum:And that they are responsible by way of their design for personal injury. That's pretty intense. That's, you know, akin to, I know we'll get into this, but, you know, cigarette companies being taken to trial and having it come out that, oh, they knew that they were harmful and addictive and that they were causing personal harm.

4:10Samir Chaudry:So, yeah, and to be clear, where we are right now is that this is what the jury found, but it still needs to be upheld. If this is upheld, that will come with a whole other series of consequences, meaning like what the ripple effects will be if this is upheld. The platforms will likely appeal this right now and to have a lot of back and forth.

4:28Colin Rosenblum:But this is very significant because, and I learned a new term, this was a bellwether case. Yeah, what does that mean? Everyone's saying bellwether. Everyone's saying bellwether. So this means that this is basically a test case. There are thousands of cases like this that are essentially pending. And this one now sets the stage potentially for how the rest of these cases will go and how they can potentially also win over the platforms.

4:59Samir Chaudry:Yeah. I mean, basically in law, you're just looking for precedent, right? You just want to be able to refer to a case and this is a pretty big referral and a bit of a like potential like three million dollars is everyone listening this is probably like okay meta and youtube have to split a three million dollar payment they're fine but it sets a precedent that basically everyone can can say hey look your platform caused me harm right yeah there was a slightly similar case

5:28Colin Rosenblum:the day before in New Mexico against Meta, and the payout there was$375 million. And the reality is, too, that this could result in major product changes, major changes in the way that these tech companies have to regulate what's uploaded to their platforms, which could largely affect their bottom line. Like, sure, three million for them, whatever. But it could be the beginning of a major, major, major shift.

6:03Samir Chaudry:So for years, because this has been a conversation for a long time, if everybody's read any of the author Jonathan Haidt's books or his most recent book, he talks about this. A lot of people have been anti-social media platforms. What was that movie during the pandemic? The Social Dilemma. Social Dilemma, right? So that was a movie that basically talked about this exact same thing. It's like, hey, look, all these platforms are built for addiction. These are not good for kids. But the platforms have protected themselves from the liability of that whole conversation with something called Section 230.

6:35Samir Chaudry:And this case shifts the whole legal dynamic away from being able to use Section 230 as a protection. So I think you should explain what Section 230 is so we can talk about that.

6:47Colin Rosenblum:Okay. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 basically said that platforms are not responsible for what users post. So if the videos are harmful, it's not on the platform. Traditionally, publishers are responsible for everything on their site. The New York Times looks at every article before it is published, and so they are responsible for what they post. And tech platforms were sort of granted immunity through Section 230. There was a part of it as well. There is a part of it called the Good Samaritan Provision, which gives these platforms flexibility to remove content that they feel doesn't fit their guidelines.

7:36Colin Rosenblum:But also in doing so, it doesn't mean that just because they are filtering some content, they are now responsible for whatever they don't catch. It says like, you go do what you think is best, but we're not really going to monitor that. Now, if this case goes through and this becomes precedent that now all these platforms are responsible for all of the UGC that's uploaded, and we've said it on some of our past episodes, the numbers of content, the numbers of video and the hours that are uploaded every day are truly absurd. if they are responsible for that they could end up having to make some major changes mainly heavily censor some of the ugc content which would totally change what they do or move to a place where they don't even allow ugc at all like they become let's paint a picture where youtube essentially they say they're a streamer that was part of their response here yeah youtube said we

8:40Samir Chaudry:We are just TV.

8:41Colin Rosenblum:They said, yeah, we are not a social media site, they called it. We are a responsible streaming service. And we can get into whether we agree with that or not, but they could move to a place where they get really, really strict about the creators that are allowed to upload to their service, to their platform.

9:03Samir Chaudry:Yeah, so that's insanely significant because we are UGC. You and I are UGC. We're not like a legacy media publisher. We're just users like any other user on the app and uploading content. So when we talk about 20 million people are uploading videos every day, like the majority of those are just like us, just independent creators uploading videos to the platform. The minority is the like Fox Studios and Disney's and Warner Brothers and all those, or the NBA, like the corporate media publishers uploading to the platform. That's the minority of it. So YouTube, I would argue back here that YouTube is not, I mean, obviously they didn't win this argument.

9:44Samir Chaudry:YouTube is not really TV, right? Like television never had 20 million people from anywhere in the world uploading videos every single day. Like that's just not what it is. Netflix is more like TV. It's a curated. It's editorial. It's a curated editorial look at what Netflix thinks should be on their platform. YouTube, we've always said this, YouTube has no idea what's on the platform tomorrow. So it's not TV.

10:09Colin Rosenblum:It looks and feels like TV. Yeah, but it's not TV. You can watch some of what's on TV on YouTube, but it is, for the better, I believe, not TV. It is a place that is democratic, where all of the independent creators like us and the people that listen to this show and watch this show have made careers for themselves.

10:32Samir Chaudry:I don't think YouTube is like the others. I don't think YouTube is like Instagram. I don't think YouTube is like TikTok. I don't think it's like Facebook or I don't know. It's not, it's not, it doesn't feel the same as like when we think of, we put this in our chatting about this with the published press team and the Slack channel. And one of our writers said, when I open Instagram, it feels like I'm hitting a vape. And I was like, whoa, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Like, I know what the feeling is. And like, maybe TikTok is more like, like drinking a Four Loko or something. but there's a feeling to it.

11:08Samir Chaudry:And we're older, like we existed without it. So we are aware of it. But if you only existed within this, it is pretty crazy. Yeah.

11:17Colin Rosenblum:Part of the reason why YouTube is not like the others is because it is a click and watch platform.

11:23Samir Chaudry:Yeah.

11:24Colin Rosenblum:For the most part. Sure, there is a shorts feed, but it does not open directly to the shorts feed. And historically, YouTube has been horizontal videos with thumbnails that you have to intentionally click on. Now they do have autoplay, which was a part of this case. But I do agree that it is not like the others.

11:47Samir Chaudry:Yeah, it is not like, I think YouTube is something fundamentally different than the others, but I don't know how to explain it to like a judge why it's so different. But I think -

11:56Colin Rosenblum:Could I argue that like there's no way someone could result in personal harm or injury? from watching it? No, I couldn't argue.

12:04Samir Chaudry:I think the issue is the conversation is about how the platforms engineer attention, not, not like just the content, but how good they are at going, I bet you, you'll like this. I bet you, you'll like this. And when that happens, you can just go down rabbit holes. And then based on what the content is, you can end up in a bad place because YouTube is not, you know, they do a good job of, I think, curating or not curating, but having guidelines of what you can and can't upload. But you're going to end up in some weird rabbit holes if that's the direction you're going.

12:40Colin Rosenblum:And I think the problem is clearly the delivery device because a TV in a public setting where you have to click and watch something is very different than how encapsulating a phone is and how it's always in our pocket. It's always at our disposal. We were also talking in Slack. Our writer, Sid, was saying that it's really hard for if she wakes up in the middle of the night to not open up Instagram immediately.

13:03Samir Chaudry:Wow. So interesting that Apple is not part of this.

13:05Colin Rosenblum:Yeah. I mean, look what Tim Cook said. Did you see what he said on Good Morning America? No, what did he say? Very recently. I think it was last week. He was asked about the impact of the iPhone on society. And Tim Cook said, well, I don't want people using them too much. I don't want people looking at the smartphone more than they're looking in someone's eyes as if they're just scrolling endlessly. This is not the way you want to spend your day. Go out and spend it in nature. And that's the guy who sells the device.

13:34Samir Chaudry:Yeah. I mean, it feels like the world of technology adopted a word for addiction or an addictive thing, which is sticky, like to make a sticky technology, right? And it's a softer word for like it's really addictive and and it feels like the goal has been a relative addiction right that that has been the marker of a good product in technology is do people come back every day and and addiction is used as a very negative word there but meaning like the gym can be addictive you go every day you get it's habitual habitual addictive like there can be

14:18Colin Rosenblum:there's a bit of yeah a bit of thing is the blurry lines only does so many technologies and of course the gym is good for you but yeah the gym only does so many things the phone now does everything

14:30Samir Chaudry:yeah and is constantly available like i so here's the question like should the platforms i think the biggest question is like should the platforms be responsible for how you how long you stay on the platforms and how long you're allowed to stay on the platforms or like because i know youtube has this new like time limit thing. Have you noticed that? Well, here's like, Hey, you've been on for a long time. You should, you should get, maybe you haven't been on for as long as I haven't been on

14:52Colin Rosenblum:it for as long.

14:52Samir Chaudry:It gets me to like, Hey dude, you've been on for too long.

14:55Colin Rosenblum:My phone just tells me when it's bedtime and I listen to that. So here's what is happening though. There are warning labels similar to cigarettes that have been instituted in four states, uh california being one of them where if a minor spends over three hours on the app for 30 seconds a label comes on screen that covers 75 of the screen and talks about the mental health effects really yeah where's which i didn't realize i didn't know that where's that that's in california new york uh i believe in two other states wow so

15:37Samir Chaudry:So there's an obvious parallel there to the tobacco industry, right? And if we look back at the 1998 tobacco settlement, there was a$206 billion payout from tobacco companies. And they then were hit with marketing restrictions, especially to minors, which is what you're talking about, and like an industry-wide shift in how they operated. I remember this because we were like just about 10 years old. Do you remember this? Like this whole thing around like smoking in 1998. Like I remember when this happened, when smoking had to get less cool. And all of a sudden we were hit with these ads that were paid for by like the tobacco industry of like people having holes in their throat and yeah, truth and smoking out of their necks.