Ask Us Anything: How do we prioritise sleep? + Is wearable fitness tech worth it? + Managing a staff member who doesn't gel with your staff

0:00I'm Adam Schwab. I'm Adir Shifman. And this is The Contrarians with Adam and Adir.

0:09And we're back. Episode 170. Ask us anything where you ask us the questions and we do our best to answer them. Over to Chief Question Asker, Mike. Question number one. Hey everyone. First question this week comes in from Paul. Paul asks, sleep is getting lots more attention lately how do you guys prioritize it given you're both super busy we've asked a variation of this question a few years ago but it's pretty important once i'm glad paul brought it up uh do you i'll tell you first actually as the uh md in the room i'll tell you some some science behind sleep but i'll say this when i was younger i was going through medical school i literally slept four hours a night almost every night on the weekend i would sleep longer I'd sleep in on the weekends.

0:54But during weekdays, I would sleep four hours a night. And crazily, like I felt fine. Like I felt totally good after four hours sleep, which just goes to show that when you're young, that youth disguises or covers up a lot of bad decision making. I think we've all worked that out when we look back at our youth. And really, that's a terrible plan because these are some facts about sleep. Number one, you're right. Generally, people do say you need seven to eight hours. I mean, the sophistication around sleep has really improved scientifically. It's not what I'd call good yet. We don't have a deep understanding medically, but it is much improved.

1:31So yes, seven to eight hours is important. And if you want me to say why seven to eight hours is important, it's just not just good for functioning the next day. It's because there is some repair of your brain that seems to go on in sleep. And it seems like there's correlation between an inadequate amount of sleep and the onset of things like Alzheimer's disease in susceptible people. So this is not a game. This is serious stuff to get enough sleep and people that are not getting enough sleep are mistreating their future self and their cognitive health in future. So that's one important point.

2:06Then the other really important point is this. If you said to me, does it make a difference to get eight or seven hours sleep? How should I think about that, I would actually ask you a different question, which is, tell me about your routine. Because a consistent routine, it's part of sleep hygiene, a consistent routine is more important than just how much sleep you get. And so if you're going to sleep sometimes at 10, and sometimes you're going to sleep at 1.30am, and you're getting the same number of hours, that's bad. That's not good quality sleep. So I think there was a period where I was just not sleeping enough, really pre-leg break last year.

2:40Actually, I was probably sleeping between 6 and 6.45 a night, which I think most experts say you want seven to eight is probably the range. And I was under that most nights. So it wasn't ideal. So I make a concerted effort now to try and get to seven hours a night. It doesn't always happen. Sometimes I'm a bit under. And if I'm a bit under, I'll try and be a bit over the next day. It might mean exercising a bit later. So I try and get up at five. But if I'm not asleep till 10.30, I'll push it back a bit. Obviously, one really important thing is consistency in sleep, trying to get to sleep at the same time or as close as possible at the same time every night.

3:10I wear an aura ring now. Obviously, my eight sleep does sleep tracking, but I also wear an aura if I'm not using the eight sleep. So I've got trackings every night, which tracks your REM, your light sleep, your deep sleep, obviously, and your no sleep, and your sleep debt versus sleep surplus. So obviously, there's some really obvious things. I don't drink coffee anyway, but obviously, a lot of people try not to drink coffee after 2 p.m. because that can keep you up or have caffeine in general. Sort of after that time, I think we talked about this last year, I didn't have a cold for a year. I finally got one, listeners may have noticed, sort of in December, when I was in late December.

3:40but for a year I didn't have a cold. I think probably the only thing I wasn't looking after, I think my diet's pretty good, obviously I don't drink, etc. But I think sleeping enough and sleeping about seven hours made a big difference to not getting sick for pretty much an entire year. So hopefully that continues this year. But I think it's a really important question. I think routine's super important. Not doing stupid things. Like, yeah, you're going to have the big night. You can't sort of help that. But getting into a routine is really critical. Getting the temperature right is really critical.

4:07Not just with an eight, so just generally, ambiently. yeah, you're the doctor. It's very important to get consistency. And then we might say, what about the things that happen around sleep? And so one of those might be the environment that you sleep in. Now, some of that's beyond your control. Like I find it very hard to sleep if there's noise. I'm actually okay with a bit of light, but noise drives me crazy to the point where I'll put in AirPods and run white noise. In fact, I'll run white noise and brown noise to drain out all noise. I think getting into a routine of sleep hygiene is good. Although unfortunately for me like it does make it hard for me to sleep if i'm traveling if there's noise you mentioned coffee so caffeine has a long half-life maybe the simplest way i could describe it is it delays the feeling of tiredness and so if you have coffee and you're a certain amount of tired you won't feel that for the next couple of hours but then it will all come back and hit you in a hurry and it has a long half-life which means it takes a long time to break down and it does keep you awake and make you not tired and so you're right like having that late in the day is not good but you know different people have very different susceptibility to like pharmacology not just caffeine to drugs right some my mom if my mom has like one panadol she basically falls asleep or no she doesn't have panel she has ibuprofen but like she basically falls asleep i can i could probably i mean i don't advocate this but i can probably have five of them and i'd be fine i also won't have i tend to not have dessert like if i ever can avoid it but if you sort of have to if there's like any sort of caffeine in dessert i tend to not have it after like a 7-year-old.

5:34Well, definitely eating right before you go to bed, like it's a weird experience because you're losing a lot of blood flow to digest food while you're lying in bed. That's not a good feeling either, right? I try and stop eating by 7, like three to three hours before I go to bed. Well, what are you eating with like 80-year-old people in a nursing home? How the hell can you finish dinner at 7? I think we have slightly different regimes. Oh, that's actually a great point. But like, maybe I'll try and finish by 8 or 9, but 7 is impressive. Also, just on that note it's not just dinner it's like i used to tend to snack after dinner and obviously with the intermittent fasting i think the best benefit of intermittent fasting isn't so much not eating in the morning it's actually not eating after seven or eight it just stops that completely unnecessary calories i totally agree with that well there's probably i would say i could easily eat three or four hundred calories which would be what let's say a quarter of my a quarter to a fifth of my daily intake with snacks you know but until yeah 10 p.m yeah i I totally agree with you.

6:31You're absolutely right about that. And then the question really was like, how do you get, how do you make all this happen? Like, how do you get, because my sleep hygiene is not perfect. Like I do have variability when I go to sleep. I am the person that I'll try to get to sleep by 1130, but realistically it's often 2am when I go to sleep and then I don't get enough sleep. But I think what I've tried to do in the last five years is say, this has got to be a priority and I've got to work backwards with my life to make sure like I do try to get to sleep at 11.30 at night and then sleep to 7.30 if possible.

7:00And so how do I work backwards in my life to structure it so it happens? Basically, whatever is a priority in your life is what happens. That's the truth. If you want to know what you really care about in life, you should just think about what you're spending time doing. And maybe that is what you should care about. And maybe it's not. And maybe, I mean, probably you're oblivious to some of what you're actually caring about that you shouldn't. You just have to make sleep something that you care about. And if you've got a job where you can't sleep more than five hours a night then what you need to understand is that you are sacrificing collecting gold coins for your future cognitive function that is how i would think about that and i think step one and i say what gets measured gets managed and we talk about that in our businesses it's critical it's so much sleep obviously eight sleeps are expensive so i'm not advocating everybody pay four grand for an eight sleep but you can get an aura ring and there's even cheaper versions of aura rings there's you get a ring or you can get it any kind wearable wear apple watch or samsung watch for a couple hundred bucks you can get and it's given the given how important sleep is it's probably worth paying a bit more but for a couple hundred bucks you can get a tracker which tracks the type of sleep you get tells you back and it gives you advice on how you should be sleeping and unless you know what you're doing right or wrong you can't fix it so step one is get yourself some sort of sleep tracking device doesn't have to be a five thousand dollar bed can be a two hundred dollar ring get something and then go from there but a really good question but you know the first bit of measurement you can start with which i think you could possibly get for free just about it's called the clock and so you can just write down how many hours of a night of sleep you're getting and that in itself if you do that for two weeks you can do you can write down i went to sleep at this time i woke up at this time this is how many hours of sleep i got and just that exercise for two weeks might shock one about just the level of variability of the number of hours and the lack of consistency in a sleep routine that is a good place to start i think it's helpful but i think you get so much more from an aura and an eight sleep will tell you or the other types of trackers is you're often waking up during the night often i think i've slept well i haven't like you actually don't really get a great understanding unless you've got one of the trackers it makes a massive difference what are you going to do about that like so putting aside my we've talked about this before putting aside a bit of cynicism i have about what's actually being measured and its correlation to stuff but let's even not argue about that what are you going to do about it like i wake up three times at night what are you going to do about that what you do about is maybe go to bed a bit earlier or change your routine before bed or stop drinking or stop having cafe there's stuff you could do well that is the myth alcohol is interesting i mean that's not one of the many things that you don't do but like alcohol feels like it gives people a good night's sleep but it's terrible for sleep quality terrible yeah exactly well that's exactly the point i've got friends who we share our sleep tracking and some people who have been drinking they sleep terribly so that is exactly that kind of info which is really really pertinent lots of people who listen to this podcast will either be fund managers or they'll be investing their own money and they'll be doing this deep level of research about companies and analyzing them and how should they invest and how much money should they make but they wouldn't have even googled or you know i don't know what you call it llm'd a single element of sleep which is so much more fundamental to how their life turns out than any particular investment i think that's what i mean by You know what's important when you think about what you spend your time on.

10:14And I think spending some time on caring about sleep is important. It's going to be great more. Question number two, Michael. Yeah, well, this second question today is kind of an interesting flow on from what we were just talking about. It's from Marcus who asks, I've noticed so many of my friends and colleagues wearing fitness-related peripherals these days, whether it be smart watches, aura rings or similar. As someone who has always worn an analog old watch, I'm curious if you think these devices are actually useful or if they're just easy ways for tech companies to make more money. What do you wear, Mike?

10:50I have an Apple Watch. And what do you use it for beyond telling the time and getting messages? I don't really even use it for messages. I turn off all the notifications on it. So it's basically just a glorified watch at this point. Do you take phone calls on it? sometimes if my phone is in the other room I'll answer it on my watch and then sometimes I'll speak reminders into it if I'm if I don't have my phone I'll just ask Apple to remind me of something and do you use the health data do you check the health data no I don't check it actively so basically you've got a very expensive analog watch plus dictaphone you're telling me that's interesting hopefully it was a gift so I have nothing I just want to put that out there like I have no watch no ring no measurement no this note so I'm the opposite extreme to what Adam is about to talk about I and I do the only thing I want to do in modifying this question is to say whatever tech companies are doing they are not making easy money out of this because this is a very hard way to make money wearables because it's hardware it has cost of goods it's got some challenges and so i suspect like even businesses like whoop which i got to know very well before covid so i've got maybe not such positive views on these things but i think even whoop is struggling to make money i mean i don't know for a fact but like i'm in and around that space remember they started in sports and so i don't think this is easy money just to put that out there but what are all of your things adam it's going to be a long list of stuff that you measure it's not that obviously we're an apple watch as you know i've talked about a lot with all but you look at that You look at all the health data, right?

12:26Yeah, and I wear an aura ring, which is the next level up, and I've got an eight to sleep. I was actually on a panel with Paul Bassett probably 10 years ago, and he was talking about a Fitbit at the time, and how just the motivation to get the steps up was really important to him. I think that's probably what gets measured gets managed. Then what did people discover about steps? What did science discover about steps? The more steps you take, the better, as in the more exercise you do, the better. Well, you can say the more whatever is better, but the truth is this. Like there's no evidence for 10 ,000.

12:57Well, you can say 10 ,000 or whatever. You can say the number might not be, but there's certainly, whether it's 10 ,000 or 5 ,000 or 20 ,000, having some sort of goal is better than just not measuring and not doing anything, which you want people otherwise. That's true, but my issue is not. Look, I agree with you entirely on that, but I think these things create a false sense of confidence. So, for example, it seems like there's not that much benefit of 10 ,000 over 5 ,000. I hate round numbers to begin with, but also what's more important is how briskly you walk and where you're walking. So 5 ,000 steps walked briskly is going to open up much more collateral circulation in the heart and be protective against like a negative cardiac event, a heart attack, whatever, than walking 10 ,000 steps more slowly.

13:39That is a fact, okay? Yeah, I don't actually track my – I look at calories, which is kind of what you're talking about. So Apple has a calorie – so my watch constantly is how many hours exercise I've done, how many hours standing, because that's just what I choose, and how many calories. and I'm always trying to get to 4 ,000. Sorry, kill Jules. I'm always trying to get to 4 ,000 a day. People survive heart attacks. I just want to say this because maybe this will help one person somewhere down the line, but people survive heart attacks because they walk briskly every day. That is one of the greatest ways to survive a heart attack.

14:09Yeah, because I think that the beauty of tracking your calories every day just makes me do more and my life's always going off at me. Every time I'm walking, even if it's like 500 metres, I'm turning on my tracker because it tracks it better and she's always critical of me for overtracking stuff. Why can't it do it automatically? Why can't it just turn itself on by itself? It does, but it doesn't fully capture it. It does it better if you turn it on. So how's your life different with all of this tech than it would have been otherwise in like 1950? It's hard to AV. I'd like to think I'd be healthier, but I've got no AV test there.

14:40So it's like, who knows? I'm kind of just hoping it's beneficial. Maybe there's a mental placebo effect. Where you would have, I mean, this is going to be a no for you. Like where you would have otherwise driven, do you walk or ride because of these tracking things? I pretty much ride. I've got an e-bike, so it's not. The e-bike is still burning because you're still pedaling. I ride my e-bike almost everywhere, wherever I can. Obviously, we're not with kids and stuff. But if it's just me and my leg's not broken, I'll be riding an e-bike. It's quicker. It's more fun. But is that because of your tracking stuff?

15:10No. No, but I know subliminally. We did that September thing where you have a big competition on how many steps you can do. And one of our product managers does like 50 ,000 a day and smashes everyone because he's an ultra-powered runner. But taking him aside, he basically can be a number for two and definitely incrementally adds 20 % to 30 % steps, I reckon, for me and for most of the team who are trying to effectively – so not only are you managing, you're competing for a month a year and I'm walking to work for 40 minutes or otherwise, maybe I'd ride. It gives me those extra steps. So it 100 % impacts how – I don't know what the net impact over the long term will be.

15:45Hopefully, it's positive. But it might be anything that gets you exercising more, which I think these trackers do, is genuinely a positive. So basically your entire sales pitch for this category of technology is gamification works. That's the sales pitch. I love gamification. And this is classic gamification. Yeah. So that's the sales pitch on this stuff. Yeah, my issue is I don't have an ideological opposition to wearing these things. I just don't find it compelling. That's why I don't do it. But by the way, I do have one of those smart scales that I use, although I don't trust the data that comes out of those beyond.

16:20I think directionally they're good. They're not perfectly accurate. They definitely will take you getting fatter or not or thinner. Yeah, because ultimately it doesn't work consistently at home. So you can – I actually bought, I think, a pretty good fat testing one that's pretty similar to the professional ones. Which one? Withings. That's the one everyone buys. That's the one I bought by Withings. I think Nokia might own it actually. I could be. I can't remember the brand. but you hold on to the straps and a measure like so it's probably not perfect i think it's decent my main issue with all of this is i don't know what to do with the data and so yes i agree with you that when i use my fitness pal you know i use that all the time because like i it's every time i'm going to eat if i know i'm entering it in that's like i just as much easier for me not to eat empty calories so i tell you what i have i have like an automatic blood pressure like it's called a sphygmomanometer that's reliable as long as you use it the right way so i do that because Like blood pressure is like there are many things you can and must do about high blood pressure.

17:16Thankfully, I don't have it. But so that I have. But I just don't know what to do with all of this data that comes out of an Apple Watch and an Oura Ring and stuff. Like it's interesting data. And even if I get past my cynicism, I just I don't know what I'm meant to do with it. That's my issue with it. I think you'll find it motivates you day to day to do more, which I think is the way. I'm not saying you take the data and make it analysis post day. post day i'm saying just during the day it absolutely makes me do more mike are you going to wish it with mike can be our litmus test after this conversation so after this discussion mike you got to tell us if this motivates you to to use get more value out of your apple watch from a health and fitness perspective i suspect it won't yeah i'll let you know so far it hasn't but i will let you know hasn't worked mike's eating a block of chocolate in the time that we've taken to have this conversation.

18:09A big Cadbury family size. We'll go to a super quick break. Michael finishes chocolate and we're back with that third question really soon.

18:23And we're back. Question number three, Mark. All right, guys. Final question comes in from Gary on LinkedIn. I run a small business with 10 staff and recently hired a staff member who, as time went on became difficult to work with because of personality clashes with my other staff. What do you guys think is the best way to manage these kinds of issues in business? I'd want to ask about whether that personality clash, I'm going to make some assumptions to answer this question that might be right or wrong because it'll make it easier for us to answer, Adam, I think. One is the personality clash is happening with the majority of other staff and that there's some fundamental issue that it's like not a one-off thing.

19:05It's like this overall thing because that will enable me to say something like the first thing I would do is try to figure out like if this individual is otherwise performing well and committed to the business, they actually might not be aware that the way they're coming across to other people is like this because there is lots of passive-aggressive stuff that goes on in life and these people might actually have a negative attitude towards the individual and have maybe not communicated it clearly. And that individual might be oblivious to the fact that they've got these issues. So my first stage would be to engage and have a conversation and try to alert that individual to the way that they're being perceived by others.

19:43Often that's an issue, right? Often I know people that are tremendous people, really committed to a business, but the way they come off, maybe if they send text messages or maybe like if they're just abrupt with people one-on-one, that that's not actually what they're trying to be or who they're trying to be and it's just a matter of trying to correct you know that behavior because they're mortified at the way people are perceiving it so that would be my first step in all of this oh that's a really good point i think i'm going to broaden the question and i'm going to assume a couple i guess you a this person is kind of caught low value like low cultural contributor to the business but be a high performer that's where you get the really like this remember that there's obviously got the quadrant you've got great performer great culture great values obviously star you've got terrible form terrible values dad no question you should don't keep them it's it's the where you've got one of each is where it's really problematic so great culture bad performance you can sort of manage through but ultimately if they're just no good they're no good the really the hardest one and this could be this person is high performer low culture and that's that's the challenge because you've got this high performer who's really good from that perspective but it's bad cultural fit for the business.

20:52And my view in that case, almost always, you obviously do your best to try and get the culture of values piece right, but ultimately, if it's a long-term problem, I think the business has to win, in a sense, and you've got to take the hit, lose that good person because if it's not a fit, it's not a fit, it's going to cause more damage to the business generally through other good people leaving, to other people being emotionally impacted, that I think you've got to make the hard call and move that person on if they're not the right fit for the business. What if they're like a salesperson responsible for 50 % of your new revenue coming in?

21:23I think you still got to make the call. It's super hard. It also depends on how much interaction they have. If there is a salesperson sharing heaps of revenue but doesn't have that much to do with other people, maybe you can live with it potentially. But if they're a role which has a lot of interaction and other people are quitting, you're losing other good people, I don't think you can continue with it. But it is super hard. For that reason, it's a super hard call. Yeah. So in a business with 10 people in particular, it's a very small business, right? What I think is that business has got to be on a mission together in order to succeed.

21:53And if a person is not on the same mission, like if the reason they're having these negative interactions is because there's just something about them that is inconsistent with the culture and the organization that is on that particular mission, then I agree with you. like one of the things that people think about, maybe I'll say it like this, one of the errors that I made when I was in business at the beginning, when I had issues like this, is I always thought about the impact on the person who was at the center of this and tried to remediate that. And it might be cultural problems. It might also be performance problems.

22:29So they weren't, they were really good culturally, but they just weren't performing. And the problem in not addressing these issues is that there are other good people in the company that are watching the way that you deal with this matter and if the way you deal with this matter is to say this person's an absolute douchebag to use an american term like they're nasty to people they really don't fit in the culture they're negative they make like snide remarks but because they're driving 50 of the revenue like we're just going to have to live with it you're sending a very clear message to everybody else in the organization about what's important to that organization if you deliver and And so I have a feeling, and so people would love to say, because, you know, there's all these cultural warriors, right, that say culture, you know, is like if you create an environment where people are not kind and the business is guaranteed to fail.

23:18Well, that is an absolute lie. For a start, I have a feeling that inside Elon's businesses, performance is much more important than how you treat other people. That's my gut feel from reading stuff and from seeing things from the outside. I don't know. I think if you look at his best business, SpaceX, he hasn't run that. Gwen Shopper runs that. So I'm not sure that's the case for his best business. All right, but you know what happens at Tesla. Like there's enough stories that come out. And Tesla's not performing particularly well. So case in point. You think Tesla, you would put Tesla in the basket of businesses that didn't work out.

23:50You have to put it in the basket of the businesses that shot the lights out. Now maybe today it's - From a share price perspective, yeah. No, but don't worry. No, no. But like Tesla has like, it started off as nothing and it's totally like come to define electric vehicles in the world and now it's falling behind but businesses as a company making its mark in the world you can't get much bigger than Tesla that business worked and it worked despite what looks from the outside like tolerating bad behavior based on performance and if you go into finance businesses I mean heavy duty finance businesses that are managing tens of billions of dollars or hundreds of billions I can tell you that they are heavy performance cultures and the mistreatment even belittling of people i mean now they have to being forced to clean it up a bit but i don't think they really want to clean it up right and like you know there was this whole newspaper articles about um what was the jones lang la sale was that the one that had all the cultural issues the property business yeah and so like i mean i don't know what happened in there i just know what i read in the financial review but it seems to me that that business performs very well it was only after the negative culture got out into the market that their clients started dumping them for their own reasons.

25:04And so I would say life is not so simple, unfortunately. We don't live in a fairy tale where treating people unkindly means you can't succeed in business. Actually, ruthlessness is heavily correlated with strong business success. That is true. I'm not sure long-term business success, like at least a long-term business success. I think you might get some short-term juice out of that. I disagree, unfortunately. I don't want it to be. I don't want it to be the case. You think I'm News Corp. You think the organization inside News Corp does not value ruthlessness of execution above all else? I know a lot of News Corp people.

25:44And I think the News Corp, forget what's written in editorial, whether you agree or disagree. The culture I've seen, and we have a lot to do with News Corp. I think it's an excellent culture. People stay at News Corp for decades. They're treated extremely well there's a lot of internal empathy i'd actually i think you've got to separate from potentially what you read in some editorials to what you actually see in the business and it's i think it's a highly empathetic business i don't know you like newscop as well but yes i like them but i'm not talking about running the australian businesses that's not what i'm talking about i'm talking about when you go to new york and you get to the top of this business are you talking about roger ailes in fox news maybe well no not just not not just that like i think basically these businesses of ultra high performance when they get to there they are often run by a very ruthless individual and that ruthlessness filters through to the top levels of management in that organization like and i think that's not unique to that but i think but how you define i think you can be ruthless in some commercial dealings with counter parties whether that's good or bad thing i'm not sure but you can still be very generous with your team and have the right values internally So I'm not sure I'd say the two are correlated.

26:51I think there's degrees. You've got to be ruthless on costs. We want to try and be ruthless on costs, not wasting money. We're not ruthless. We want to try and negotiate the best possible deal for our customers in that sense. We can still be very generous with team and customers in other respects. I'm not sure it's homogenous across a business as to – I think you have pockets of ruthlessness and pockets of generosity in the business. So I think the likelihood of succeeding as a business with a strong culture is higher. It's a better likelihood of succeeding. One of the challenges as organizations get bigger, and again, I talk about mostly founder-led businesses here, and founders get more distant from the day-to-day operations of the company, is that this idea of culture turns into let's just be nice to everyone, and that can very quickly erode the culture of performance in the organization.

27:40because underperformance, consistent underperformance needs to be dealt with definitively. It can't be accepted. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about being nice to people and having feathers and rainbows. I'm talking about there's times where you need to be stern with the team, but there's high value. What I'm talking about is honesty, integrity, treating people properly. It doesn't mean being soft and nice and tolerating underperformance. I think that's a different sort of culture. That's a terrible culture. I'm talking about how do you – I think you run a business ethically and morally with high values and that's what you're looking for in your team and when you veer from that is where there's a problem.

28:18So a lot of what people don't like in coworkers often, especially founders don't like this in people, is negativity. And so negativity has a fine balance. Like I hate negative people in an organisation. On the flip side, I don't want people drinking the Kool-Aid. And so like everything, there is a balance. You want scepticism. That's right. But overall, but I want them to pull in on the rope as hard as everyone in the same direction. Once we've agreed that that's what we have to do. My answer to this is, if this person is just consistently eroding the motivation of other people in the organization to do something special, then this person is going to have to go no matter what the cost.

29:00We're in agreement about that. The thing, the flip side that I'm saying is I hear people all the time make these public pronouncements, which is a negative culture in an organization that is not supportive of people and creating a good environment means a company is destined to fail. And unfortunately, that's not true. I wish that was true, but it's not true. You can still succeed with a culture that is nasty to people in your organization. It's just not a nice way to succeed. I don't think it's fun. I wouldn't want to do that. It's a bad way to make money, but it does happen. It does happen. I think my point is I think you've definitely seen in the short term.

29:40I think in the long term that doesn't work. Well, I might have to somewhat agree to disagree on that one, but a couple of three great questions today. Thank you for our amazing listeners, the best listeners in the world. Thank you, Mike and Adia, of course. We'll see everybody on Tuesday for our big episode. Thank you.