Tesla Going Down...Down, Immutable’s Massive Fall and Australia’s Unicorn Bubble

0:00I'm Adam Schwab. I'm Adir Shifflin. And this is The Contrarians with Adam and Adir.

0:07And we're back, episode 226. We're back with our super popular business-only Saturday edition, super Saturday edition, Adir. People love talking about, we talk about business so much. So we've got a couple of ripping stories today. We'll go crack straight into it. Then people get back to our Saturdays. But it was the best of times, the worst of times for the world's most overpriced car business. Who do you think I'm talking about? Well, there's only one world's most overpriced car business. That's Tesla. Of course, Tesla announced last week that it sold more cars than ever before during the June quarter, but operating income collapsed by 57 % to$398 million.

0:42Revenue for the quarter rose 26 % to US$28 billion. This is actually ahead of forecasts. However, that was largely due to reducing the price of the cars sold. GP was only up 23%. So you've seen that which is a reducing margin at the same time they also had high much higher opex and worrying this was selling an admin cost rocketed 45 percent 1.9 billion that means the income from operations which is kind of that key number there's a lot of other weird stuff happening with tesla income from ops slumped from 923 million to 398 million for the quarter not great earnings came in at 33 cents a share analysts thought it was going to be at 51 cents and net profit slipped uh so this is the overall net profit there's a bunch of interest in there they sell they sell credits all that kind of stuff that slipped to 1.1 billion u.s interestingly tesla's revenue what do you reckon tesla's revenue between 2023 and 2025 did meanwhile share price is rocketing over this period i think it fell yeah it fell from 96 billion in 23 to 93 billion in 25 i would i'd i 100 assumed it would have increased a lot over that period but it didn't at all uh the only bright spot for tesla and we talked about our last episode self-driving but The only bright spot Tesla was subs to its full self-driving.

1:55You'd pay$99 US a month to get access to the full self-driving. It was fantastic. That actually was up 56 % year on year. And that hit, I think, 1.48 million people doing that. More than 55 % of new North American deliveries include the full self-driving package. And that led to gross profit of$648 million US. Takeout self-driving revenue in the business is actually loss-making on an operational basis. Obviously, taking it out is a bit unfair because obviously a lot of R &D went into that. But to remind listeners that even though Tesla's share price has been smashed, it's down 30 % in the last two months.

2:28This is still a trillion dollars. Yeah, it's ridiculous. This is crazy. Even on the most generous analysis, it makes maybe a few billion dollars annually on operating bases. That's been pretty generous, to be honest. And that's around a billion dollars a year. To add more salt in the wound, one of Tesla's main growth drivers, of course, RoboTaxis. This is not self-driving. This is the specific RoboTaxis. is not merely not growing as promised, it actually appears to be shrinking. Before launching Tesla's first robotaxi in Austin last summer, Elon Musk estimated that a thousand of the self-driving cabs would be roaming the streets within a few months.

3:00One year later, and Tesla doesn't even have 100 robotaxis in operation, according to a new chart released by the company on Wednesday, the robotaxi network racked up fewer miles from paying customers in the second quarter that did it in the first. Well, how can that be? If Waymo is so popular and growing so fast, why people don't want to take the Tesla one? I don't know, but... It's a bit astonishing. According to TechCrunch, Tesla's driverless cabs carried around 1.1 million miles last quarter and then dropped to 700 ,000 miles in the most recent quarter. There must be some weird explanation for that.

3:31Like the demand hasn't dropped. Well, you think demand should be increasing? Yeah. Actually, there's got to be massive execution issues. I agree. They had people in the car a heap and all that sort of stuff. So we talk about how Tesla uses the radar stuff versus LiDAR. obviously costs virtually nothing to have a tesla with with robo taxi versus i think it's 250k or something for a waymo so it's clearly very different builds there but tesla just seems we talked about we talked about spacex uh about a week and a half ago and we said spacex is overvalued we picked it 2.5 trillion we dropped down to 1.7 now but tesla seems far more overvalued than waymo not even this tesla seems far more more overvalued than spacex could tesla's making virtually no money it's worth a trillion dollars at least SpaceX has Starlink so we have to think about what are you buying I mean one lesson of this is Elon whatever he focuses on at any point in time tends to do well like he's a very smart guy and so if Tesla was going to succeed against all these Chinese competition today it would need 100 % of Elon's focus to do it I think because he's a very innovative guy and like I think Tesla's the business he cares about at least right now probably so that's one problem what sort of business do you think tesla is today like what do they do today well they do what they want to do what they do what they're car manufacturer i agree so today they're electric cars what they're promising the market is tomorrow or even now we're going to be self-driving electric cars okay i think there's a decent claim that they're going to do that you love their self-driving question is what's that worth but yes yeah okay that's what they're going to be.

5:10And so I think that's almost certainly what they're going to be. And then they have – We'll quickly pause on that for a second. So I agree. I think self-driving tells us the best opportunity. Yeah. But Waymo, which we talked about last episode, we think is way ahead of Tesla in this. It's years ahead. It's self-driving. It's self-driving. It's worth$126 billion. Yeah. So if Waymo is number one and Tesla's miles behind – I guess it's got lots of data from us. But Waymo is not selling cars. That's not their business. No, but it's way ahead in the actual product itself. Yeah, so they're way ahead in price.

5:44So even if you take that, your point is right, maybe the Tesla self-driving upside's worth$75 billion, if I'm being generous. I don't think it's worth$1.1.1, and it's worth a trillion. Yeah, we'll keep going though. And so what does Elon tell you this business is going to be? A robot business. Correct, a robot business. Optimus Prime. And so I think that the bet on this is, as I keep saying, it's the Elon religion, which is this is the Messiah and he always delivers. And nobody believed he was going to deliver an electric car. Nobody believed he was going to deliver a rocket that lands on its end.

6:25Nobody conceived of Starlink. I don't think there was a lack of belief. The low orbital. The low orbital. I mean, there are a few things he hasn't delivered, like this boring company. What's raising at$20 billion valuation? I know. Where are they? There's one in Las Vegas. I think it's operating. Okay, yeah. And so, you know, that may be – and there's a few others. And he's got this Neuralink thing, so I don't know how that's going, but that might be – and so I think this bet on Tesla is just a bet on the Messiah will deliver. And if he says he's going to deliver robots and he explains robots are going to be the thing of the future, I think that$800 million of this valuation at least is on the Elon religion.

7:08And that is the case. I think we agree. It's always been the case. We absolutely agree on this. I think everybody agrees on that. And so there's no point talking about the valuation because you're talking about maths and it's irrelevant. No, but what you can talk about is eventually, Elon's the ultimate weighing machine, voting machine. And maybe we talked about WiseTech. You might live to 100. We talked about WiseTech two years ago. What's been weighed that Elon's been a part of? Ever. What's ever been weighed? You're assuming that simply because something hasn't happened or won't happen. No, I'm not.

7:37I'm just trying to think about timeframes. So you agree nothing's been weighed? Well, SpaceX is being weighed now. SpaceX is down 40%. So there's some – it's not rational, but at least it's become somewhat more rational. I totally disagree that SpaceX is being weighed. SpaceX is down 40%. So something has happened there. Yeah, I tell you what's happened. It's momentum movements. like people thought I can just jump on the Elon religion and the only way is up because it's AI and this and everything's flying and there's been a lot of change in sentiment. I mean, all these AI, Neo Clouds. But that's my point.

8:10The point is you're saying, I agree with you, Tesla's a sentiment stock. But it's still not being weighed. You're saying the sentiment can never change. I'm saying the sentiment's just changed on SpaceX. I'm saying there's weighing and there's voting. I'm not saying, maybe you're not weighing on a scale. Maybe I'm looking at someone's weight and say he weighs 60 kilos. But there's some sort of weighing going, on maybe not to the 100th decimal place i think it's still all voting that's maybe where we disagree on this like i think there's never been any weighing on anything that elon's done in the last 20 years it's just all variations of voting and right now what people are voting on is we still believe in elon but the momentum is kind of being sucked out so we're going to vote less on it i think it's down as well it might be 20 years till someone weighs i think it's a lot less than that i think that we talked about richard white like two years ago and wise tech was flying it was 44 million but 44 billion dollars no one thinks richard white is a messiah but they did at the time they didn't we hunt people thought he was no no people thought he was like this magical businessman yes but not the messiah not elon levels but i could start a church to elon and i would get congregants but relatively speaking richard white was considered this god of a shame he's worth 16 billion remember i remember literally saying on the podcast at the time saying Richard White's alleged success like this is when he had the scandal started to this actually before the scandal I think so and as it came what worse during the scandal but I said the reason why people love Richard White is because he's rich he's rich because people love Richard White was this circular I agree with that and it had this huge PA when we the reason why we were bearish on Weiss at the time wasn't because Richard White's scandals they came out later like there was always some question marks over him and I'd had insiders telling me all this stuff I couldn't talk about on the air but that wasn't what i was basing my valuation on my valuation based on the fact that i made a couple hundred million dollars and it was valued at 44 billion that was that was pretty simple metric eventually the weighing machine came in and richard white's stuff happened and now it's a 10 billion dollar business and richard white's worth two billion and suddenly the guy isn't a 16 billion anyway he's now a guy worth two still a heap of money but he's not the messiah anymore and people go this white thing is overpriced crap now But I just want to disagree on this.

10:14So Taylor Swift, Buddha. But Taylor Swift's a talented artist. One of them has a religion. Taylor Swift's a talented artist. I know, but Taylor Swift is hugely popular and loved, but no one thinks she's Buddha. Richard White was like a crappier version of Taylor Swift with less talent, okay? Taylor Swift wouldn't be happy with that comparison. But Elon is like getting into Buddha territory, I think. I think a lot less than he used to be. There's still a lot of Elon acolytes. Listen to All In, you hear it. But to me, Elon Musk is the Kardashians. He's the Kardashians of business. He's famous for being famous.

10:48He's rich for being rich. I think as soon as that gloss comes off this Elon train, and we've seen, like, there's still a long way to go. There's more to Elon than just famous for being famous and rich for being rich. If we go back six weeks. He is a bit of a Thomas Edison of our era. Six weeks ago. Not a bit, it's a lot. We go back six weeks ago when we're talking about, even less, when I wrote the article on SpaceX five weeks ago, SpaceX was worth, got hit 2.4 trillion, and Tesla was one. so this is 3.8 trillion of market value for a business we thought was worth a couple hundred billion max that's now dropped to about 2.7 so it's dropped a trillion dollars of valuation both a trillion dollars no no i don't think anyone's lost maybe microsoft recently no i don't think many businesses ever lost that much valuation i'm combining them because everybody's talking about merch this is a huge market correction for no real yeah this tesla news but it's not this isn't huge news.

11:37SpaceX had zero news. This is a bit of a gloss coming off this Elon. Maybe, but it did stretch beyond what was reasonable even for that religion. We're 98 % overvalued here. We're so far off any kind of, to your point, rational weighing that we're not, but we're getting closer. We are getting closer. Taking a trillion off the 3.8 trillion is a big drop. Who do you think is considered to be more of a messiah? Elon or Warren Buffett? Oh, Buffett for sure. More of a messiah? He's much more loved. Does his business get weighed? Yes, it does. That means he's not a messiah. No one is weighing and saying, hang on, let's look at this rationally.

12:17Did Moses really tap the stick and part the sea? Let's do the physics. No one's doing that. You're talking about the marginal morons. Eventually the marginal morons go bankrupt. That always happens. The guys who invested in AMC and in pets.com, they have their moment. and they look like geniuses for a time. The guys who invest in Bitcoin at 128 ,000, eventually the morons get exposed. People get seen swimming naked. If your game is, I'm going to profit on the market weighing Elon, you know, you should buy 20-year put options and just wait. I'm not saying run out and short it tomorrow. I haven't even done that.

12:54So I'm not saying, I mean, obviously we're not giving investment advice, but you said, oh, look at Elon. Like if you look at Elon's actual successes, I love my Tesla and I love Starlink. Two of the most amazing products. But financially speaking, he said no – PayPal was basically bankrupt before he – and about for Peter Thiel raising cash just before the crash would have gone under. So he sold his previous business and got a decent sum for that. But Tesla almost went bankrupt a bunch of times. Still makes – basically, as we talked about, basically makes no money. It's probably realistically a$30 billion business.

13:27It's better product and salesmanship than making money. I know, but businesses are valued on making money eventually. Well, you're so old-fashioned. You know we're in a boom when you're saying that. So you've got Tesla, no real value there. You've got SpaceX still loses a bunch of money. Starlink's an incredible product. If you isolated Starlink and had none of the other shit, then yeah, great. And I guess SpaceX, Starlink, because they're kind of one and the same. But XAI is a disaster. Like maybe it makes a bit of money renting out GPUs, but let's forget that. So he hasn't, he's famous for being, he's the Kardashian, he's famous for being famous, he's rich for being rich, but he hasn't actually created, Warren Buffett's created True Dollars of Wealth for people.

14:06Yeah, I don't think he's famous. He hasn't done that. I think he's not famous for being famous. He's famous for building great products and then doing incredible salesmanship and that's what made him rich, right? But underlying it, there is still deep substance to what he's brought to the world. It just hasn't been - But not financially. Yeah, it hasn't. Yeah, I love financially. He hasn't added a lot of financial value to the world. He's added fake financial value because he's still got$2.6 trillion in market cap. But if these businesses were valued rationally, eventually they will be. It could be 50.

14:40We could be dead by then. I agree. But I think we won't. I think it'll happen in the next five years. Have you tried the Chinese electric cars? I've driven a BYD. Have you? What about the Zika's and stuff? I much prefer driving Tesla at BYD. But I think BYD's getting better and better. And they're a far bigger company. What about the better Chinese car? I haven't driven the Zika I haven't driven it Zika's what's BYD's new good brand they've got a I know Danza I think you see BYD's sports car that they just put on it's unbelievable yeah it looks really cool but so I think and they're going to get they'll be unbelievable you should go drive a proper more luxurious yeah not luxurious but better Chinese brand and then you tell me if you think that's better or worse than I drove a cheap BYD like the really cheap one I didn't love it it was 20 grand so like for what you pay for that's pretty good so ridiculous

15:31ridiculous that was great check we move on um i want to talk about a business called immutable which i've found fascinating i've found this is fascinating for years a business whose name is totally disconnected from the reality absolutely because no one's paid any attention to them for the last two years they were completely muted right like it's a complete lie right so Actually, after years of being lauded, it's one of Australia's greatest business success stories. We also feel like they're coming off this overhyped business. And this business has literally never made any sense to me at all, even during the crypto boom, and it makes even less sense now.

16:04So if you go back, Mineral was founded in 2018, and business was purported to launch games on the blockchain. So computer games, you obviously probably know more about this stuff than me. I've not played any of their games. It feels like a bit of like a Roblox mixed with Kalshi, essentially. So you've got the betting on one of Kalshi with the Bitcoin, and then you've got Roblox as a platform. I guess you could argue people love gambling, people love games. That kind of makes sense. What gamers hate is monetisation of in-game assets and turning them into tradable things. Why do they hate that though?

16:35So people don't mind if you get – They're having to pay for Fortnite stuff. They are because they use it themselves. But what they don't like is you're taking my video game that I play for fun and turning it into a capitalist marketplace where that becomes the dominant mechanism. Mike, do you hate that? You're a big gamer here. Yeah, I don't like it either. The way that the dream sounded for video games, which I thought might be a possibility, is that you would create these in-game assets or get them through loot boxes. And then there would be a secondary marketplace where that would form kind of a material part of the game and it would be traded with crypto.

17:14And I think what ended up happening is people said, I'm here to play a game not to run a, like the town square market. Yeah. And so leave us alone and don't try and get more money out of us. Yeah. So essentially, I'm not a bit of Age of Empires, but I'm not a gamer like you guys. There's nothing you can trade in Age of Empires. And I've never done any crypto stuff. But essentially, you sort of earn this crypto and the crypto would trade in the background. Obviously, the more valuable the crypto, and I think it was called, the token was called Immutable. Yeah. The more valuable the Immutable token became.

17:39It got really valuable at one point, the more valuable the business was. And then we had like a rising boat. So you have more people participating. The whole point of crypto is the more people use it. i.e. Bitcoin or F, the more valuable they come because it comes effectively. And there's only one business that's really turned that into a great operating model and that is Circle. Well, Quantus loyalty, but Circle. Yep, the Tether business. Yeah, and so they go and the reason that they've turned it into a great business is because they go and print stable coins in US dollar denominations and people leave it in their accounts and then they don't have to – in fact, it's illegal for them to pay interest.

18:17Well, they do give rewards. Yeah, but it's so minimal. I thought it's approaching interest right now. I haven't checked it for a while. You might be right. They're starting to adjust. But that was a business. That was the only – I always say that's the only business in the world that Warren Buffett would be jealous of because they get a float for having to pay out nothing. Absolutely, yeah. Free money. Totally. So, yeah, my understanding was the more people use these immutable tokens, the more valuable tokens. And the more games you have, the more valuable tokens. It becomes this – what they're trying to build is a virtual cycle.

18:45And this is, if you go back to 2022, that was what they were claiming. The business was valued at, do you remember what this business was worth? It was, I think it got into the billions. $3.5 billion. It's actually insane. This was when NFTs, people were paying$16 million for the ape, remember? Yeah, yeah. I mean, what's happened to that? This was worth$3.5 billion. It basically had no revenue at the time. So it's, and this has managed to convince some of the world's most respected investors. And they said like Tencent, obviously. Tencent don't get all their bets right, but Tencent's one of the world's best.

19:14Certainly games investors. Tamasek, the Singaporean sovereign wealth fund, also a really good investor. This mob called King River Capital, get back to them in a second, and Airtree, great Australian investor. So they invested US$277 million in this 3.5. This is real money. This is a huge raise. Amazingly, the business managed to raise another US$500 million from King River Capital again. And I've never heard of these King, have you heard of these King River guys? I've never heard of them. I thought I did until you said they raised$500 million from them and then maybe I don't know who they are.

19:45Well, that was for a JV investment fund called Immutable Games Fund. So, like, I don't know if it was an SPV or whatnot, but that's bizarre. Like, I think they're American guys who are based in Australia now. One's the next Goldman Sachs guy and there's another guy who I'll talk about in a second. The 2022 raise made Immutable Australia's fourth most valuable unicorn. Do you know who was only three companies bigger? Do you know what they are? Well, Canva. Obviously. Airwallex. And? and safety culture no they were close they were 2.5 i think uh who was bigger i don't know our good friend bruce buchanan uh rocked okay uh which is well about emily mcguire who was a great recruit uh to joe asson's rampart finally broke the inevitable news that for the 12 months ending june 2025 this is going back a year it's frustrating when companies lodge so late they should be getting fine for this but anyway revenue actually fell this is a 3.5 billion dollar two billion business fell from US 51 million to US 50 million dollars it lost US 37 million dollars which actually was an improvement on the previous year which when it losses basically it got its revenue the business told the AFR had told the AFR it would break even by 2025 of course it did not so this is a business with basically no revenue called US 50 million which is nothing it's losing a bunch of money and it's worth 3.5 billion it was worth immutable generated this is where its money comes from so eight million dollars from blockchain fees four million dollars from its game studio that was down from 18 27 million from its ecosystem i don't know what that is exactly um and one million from ai marketing gets more than a second apparently all the 40 games and 40 games is nothing i can't remember robox must do like thousands of games a year but 40 games on boarded in the past month are regular games not even crypto games uh so this sounds like the worst world's worst imitation of steam has ever existed uh incidentally it seems immutable is also giving up on this blockchain clusterfuck and pivoting being some sort of AI marketing tool, which I'm sure will go real well.

21:41Incredibly, the AFR's young, richly spallied the immutable founders, brothers Robbie and James Ferguson, at$1.7 billion only nine months ago. So I don't know what they're doing down at the AFR. Friend of the pod, John Stensholt, wasn't quite as easily duped. He took them off the list last year, which is big news. That said, as I pointed out to John, he did have them worth$2.2 billion the year before. So even the great John Stensholt gets it wrong sometimes. If they're raising rounds. I presume they had John on the private jet, which probably softened them up a bit. If they're raising rounds, that 500 mil sounds like it was to put into, to support, you know, closing the loop.

22:17So we'll raise 500 mil. We'll invest that in businesses that build games for our platform, that buy crypto. Like a worse version of Nvidia. Yeah. Basically. It'd be turning his grave if you heard you say that. I mean, I know people. I don't think Jensen's dead. What are you doing, Jensen? Yeah, Kenny is in the jacket. I think I know people involved with this business. Oh, do you? Yeah. As investors. Yeah. And also as people in and around the business. I spoke to an executive once who actually is a really impressive executive I've known from previous jobs. One person made me feel like maybe the hubris in that place was quite high at the peak of it.

22:57Yeah. But yeah, 3.5 Bill Val, that's understandable. Yeah, but I think if you got a 3.5 bill, Val, based on this kind of stuff, I think your overwhelming emotion would probably be panic. I would never ask for a 3.5. Let's say you got it, okay? It's inconceivable. But you're overwhelmed. We can even – don't say that big number. If you got a valuation that was based on we promise we're going to build this tomorrow, you would have no hubris. You would just have stress and panic about how am I going to build this tomorrow? I think that's the difference, right? I think that when you get a valuation that's really high and you don't deserve it, like hubris is the wrong emotion.

23:37Panic is the right emotion. Yeah, totally. While the business has been a cash furnace for basically his entire life and its core business appears pretty much dead, it hasn't lost all its supporters, King River Capital co-founder and Immutables, of course, main funder, a guy called Zebediah Rice. Do you know Zebediah? No. It's a good name though. Great name. That it's unlikely to be updating the$3.5 billion valuation. I think Zebedire needs to do some work on his valuing. He said the comp still makes sense. I'm not sure he's comping to maybe like SpaceX or something, but it doesn't make much sense.

24:07Immutable's token, which is where, to me, which is where the 2022 valuation came from, that's down a lazy 99%. So the reason why I was so skeptical in this business is I could see the token dropping like every day. Yet the AFR Rich List was valuing these guys a billion. It made absolutely, this whole business is valued on this token. It was FTX. It was valued on the token. As soon as the token dropped, this business had no inherent, the whole fake network effect fell apart. But do you think this is worth zero? Yeah, absolutely. It's losing$37 million a year. It's got some cash in fairness because I'm not sure what happened to the Games Fund business.

24:40And it raised that$277 million US. So that's$400 million Aussie. Even if it's losing$60 a year, we still have a couple hundred million bucks of that left. So you think it's worth a bit less than cash? Yeah, the closed down cost of the cash. The closed down cost of the cash, yeah. am I wrong? I don't know I haven't looked at this closely for a long I mean I looked at it a bit closely a long time ago in the NFT craze era do you ever what were your thoughts because what was before we did the show the NFT craze I was obviously a skeptic of it but did you ever I was I would say I was an extreme skeptic of it I just could never understand where people saw the inherent value in it as I felt about Bitcoin for a long time but again I've been wrong about that I think Bitcoin's much less bad than NFTs.

25:28All right, but I felt like there's no inherent value in Bitcoin. And then people make the gold argument, which I understand that argument. Yeah, digital gold, yeah. But I just felt like – Well, the problem we have with the digital gold argument is with the volatility of it. And gold was nothing like that volatility. Although, that said, it's kind of a reverse in its years. And I think there are other challenges. Like, everyone understands what gold is. That's one thing. 5 ,000 years of history, maybe 10. That's another handy thing. If you touch it. Yeah, because, look, you've had 5 ,000 years – It's the most stable element.

25:57To build a myth. Yeah. Basically, gold is a myth. Yeah. And Bitcoin is a myth. Yeah. And you just have to have had much longer to build the gold myth. And so, look, I don't want to predict what's going to happen to Bitcoin, but I never understood – what I certainly understood is this is no currency. This is an asset. The Bitcoin myth is a much better myth than the immutable myth. Well, I didn't really understand the immutable myth. Like, what I don't understand is this. largely what happens with these, you know, shit coins, let's call them, which is what this is really is it seems like someone puts out a coin and they say if it's a good version of this, they say this is what it's used for.

26:38If it's a bad version, it's used for nothing. And then they hold a lot of them and then they jack the price up and then they go and dump the ones that they hold in the market before it crashes. And so Immutable is not that. Like they actually did try to build a business around this stuff. So it wasn't the worst version of an NFT. It was a dumb idea, but it was a – Well, it wasn't the worst version of crypto, which is that. It was an NFT linked to an actual business. It just wasn't a very good idea in retrospect. Yeah. Nothing about it ever made sense, which is fine. A lot of business don't make sense.

27:06If they raised$5 million at a$50 million value, you go, whatever, this happens. The$3.5 billion, from the likes of Tencent and Airtree and Temase, these aren't like fools. These are smart people. Like this is just – I'm not sure about these King River guys. maybe not so much but certainly the other three they're like these are some of the best investors in the world how does this business get a 3.5 billion dollar valuation yeah well because there's you know how does that whole AI industry have their valuations you know how this works basically and how has no one criticized this thing till this week well because no one cares about it 3.5 billion the fourth most highly valued startup no one cares no one cares about it that's why so people don't pay attention to it because this is a this is an artifact from the last hype cycle.