In short
How high achievement becomes overachievement, and how grief and trauma reshaped Esther Marshall’s definition of courage, achievement, and “being enough.” She describes turning personal loss into purpose through Sophie Says, a children’s wellbeing brand focused on emotional resilience and “it’s okay not to be okay.”
Guest backgrounds
Esther Marshall is a former Unilever corporate leader (sustainability, innovation, diversity & inclusion; global gender diversity leader). After losing her sister Rebecca to suicide, she founded Sophie Says. She later faced additional family losses (grandparents with Alzheimer’s; mother’s pancreatic cancer) and fertility trauma (sepsis, IVF, miscarriage).
Key claims
High achievers often “fail quietly” and control what’s controllable; grief can coexist with numbness and guilt. Courage is getting up and fighting through pain to disrupt and make change. Achievement should include the journey, not just outcomes.
Notable examples
Writing Sophie Says books during maternity leave; Rebecca’s suicide note and a “rainbow” moment after an email alert; running a marathon to raise £38,000 for Pancreatic Cancer UK; a therapy breakthrough after a slower-than-target marathon time leading to “succeed loudly.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Esther Marshall and Her Story
0:45 to 2:31
Esther shares her journey from personal tragedy to purpose in children's mental health.
“I'm from somebody who's never run with mum with pancreatic cancer.”
The Roots of Achievement: Family Influence
2:31 to 4:48
Esther discusses how her upbringing shaped her drive for achievement and giving back.
“So I grew up with two doctors as parents.”
Career Journey: Achievements and Expectations
4:48 to 6:44
Esther reflects on her corporate career and the pressures of high expectations.
“So understanding all around supply chain, sustainability, fascinating.”
The Impact of High Achievement on Teams
6:44 to 11:29
Esther explores the effects of her high standards on her team dynamics and leadership approach.
“and had teams whereby I was older than a lot of the people that were kind of reporting into me which was also interesting to navigate.”
Navigating Life's Challenges and Personal Loss
11:29 to 14:00
Esther shares the traumatic experience of losing her sister and its impact on her life and work.
“I was so used to working so hard, late, always, always busy and my brain always working.”
The Impact of Loss: A Personal Story
14:00 to 18:00
Learn about the profound effects of grief and loss on personal and professional life.
“and in the January leading up to the March of lockdown, she was living with my parents at the time and mum came home to a very dark house and normally my sister would have been home.”
Transforming Pain into Purpose
18:00 to 22:40
Discover how the speaker channeled grief into motivation to achieve their goals.
Navigating Multiple Losses and Responsibilities
22:40 to 28:00
Explore the challenges of managing grief while juggling family responsibilities and career.
“And that was kind of one after the other, after the other.”
The Impact of Grief on Life and Achievement
28:00 to 29:00
Learn about the profound effects of losing a loved one and its influence on personal and professional life.
“That was horrifically traumatic watching someone deteriorate like that, especially an incredibly strong woman having everything taken away from her.”
The Decision to Run a Marathon
29:00 to 30:20
Explore the emotional journey behind the choice to run a marathon as a tribute to a loved one.
“And I just assumed that I was unwell and stressed.”
Show all 20 chapters
Training Through Grief
30:20 to 33:00
Discover how training for a marathon became a channel for processing grief and emotional release.
“I've known so many people now who've been through this horrendous disease.”
Reflections on Achievement and Expectations
33:00 to 34:40
Understand the complexities of achievement and the pressure of personal expectations post-marathon.
“but the grief would just come and it would help.”
A Breakthrough in Mindset
34:40 to 35:00
Learn about a transformative realization regarding achievement and self-worth.
Shifting Perspectives on Success
35:00 to 39:50
Explore how redefining success can create a more positive outlook on one’s journey and achievements.
“And it was the example of the marathon and also the position you came and the time you did.”
Building a Movement for Change
40:14 to 42:00
Learn about the plans to create generational change through a new initiative.
“And then I realized once I learned this flip of like, why am I getting angry at other people in my head?”
The Journey of Achieving and Asking for Help
42:00 to 45:20
Discover how sharing struggles and achievements leads to personal growth.
“It was, you have to achieve by yourself, only by yourself, because if you ask for help, you failed.”
Redefining Success and Personal Worth
45:20 to 49:40
Explore the shift in understanding personal worth beyond professional accolades.
Understanding Courage Through Pain
49:40 to 53:40
Learn how courage is defined as consistently pushing through personal pain.
“Because someone said to me something, because I kept saying life's so short, I need to do this.”
The Need for Help in Scaling a Vision
53:40 to 56:00
Hear about the challenges in scaling a cause and the importance of collaboration.
“And I think that's also courage of understanding when you need to step back.”
Opening Doors for Generational Change
56:01 to 56:40
Learn how to create emotional resilience in children and its impact on adults.
“Well, I hope this episode, we're going to get this out to as many people as possible.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Esther Marshall:When I first heard your story, I had goosebumps. I feel like I should walk around with a sign on my head that says trigger warning, trauma. For me, it was always just achieve, achieve, achieve, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. There's a photo of me cooking whilst breastfeeding my baby and on a call because I was trying to do everything because I thought if I didn't, I'm failing my mom, I'm failing my baby and I'm failing Rebecca.
0:23Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:After a successful corporate career, Esther Marshall turned personal tragedy into purpose following the loss of her sister. As the founder of Sophie Says, a children's wellbeing brand, she is now a leading voice on children's mental health and purpose-driven leadership.
0:38Esther Marshall:In the night that she passed away, everything changed in that instance.
0:42Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:You made a decision the day your mum died to run the marathon.
0:46Esther Marshall:I'm from somebody who's never run with mum with pancreatic cancer. And so I said, well, what is it that I could tell people that I'm doing that would be the biggest challenge? I know what I'll do. I'll run a marathon. What does courage mean to you? Every day I'm getting up and I'm fighting through the pain, disrupting to make a difference. That's courage in my eyes.
1:04Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Hi, everyone. Just jumping in quickly to share with you that today is our 200th episode. So I want to do a huge thank you to all of you for your continued support. We love getting your feedback. We love seeing your comments and the suggestions that you send in as well, the guests that you want to see. We can't quite believe we've got to 200. And this is a huge thank you as we couldn't do it without you. And we want to keep bringing more courage to leadership. So your continued support means a lot. Thank you. Esther, welcome to the show. It's an absolute delight to have you here today because we're going to talk about a subject that is, I can resonate massively and I know people listening will be able to.
1:40And that is being a high achiever and how that tips over to being an overachiever.
1:47Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:And that feeling of sometimes that you never feel anything is enough. but most importantly when life throws you these really kind of painful curveballs and this expectation you have on yourself as a high achiever to be able to handle everything and keep everything together what that actually really takes from you as a person so I'm just hugely grateful that you're coming on to talk about a subject that means so much to people and I know your story I mean when I first heard your story I had goosebumps and what you've experienced and that you're willing to share that I just want to thank you from the start as well Thank you for having me on.
2:22Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:I'm so grateful. Thank you. So do you want to start just giving us a bit of an understanding of how achievements really kind of become part of who you are?
2:30Esther Marshall:Yeah, sure.
2:31Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Of course.
2:32Esther Marshall:So I grew up with two doctors as parents. They both had difficult upbringings as well. My mum's father passed away when she was three and her mum was a single mum trying to bring up three kids. Same with my dad. Mum wasn't working. Dad was trying to, etc. and they both pushed through so many boundaries because they wanted to give back and they both became doctors and they met at medical school and then they had me as their eldest and so for them from a kind of day dot they basically were the mantra in our family was we have been put on this earth to do one thing and that is to give back and to help others and so whatever you do you need to get to a place whereby you can do that so you have to achieve so you can get to that place and then when you get there you then have to always remember that you need to bring others with you and so that started from school with grades at school if we didn't get exceptionally high grades we were grounded until we practiced papers and kept going so I wanted to see my friends so I kept working and working and working and it kind of was that also my parents were friends with similar people so everybody else was getting those A's A stars they were going to these unbelievable universities even if they had older children I was always looking at that of I always need to achieve and so when I got the amazing GCSE grades it was like right now I need to get on to the next ones then when I got the and so it was a constant okay tick but never a celebration and that's kind of how it's embedded in my life now of I need to get there in order to have this kind of not necessarily social standing but to to get the kind of warmth and love that it was it was only kind of if we were doing well and achieving because that was how we were going to give back to the world and that's why we've been placed on this earth it's a high standard
4:35Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:yeah to move from yeah and how did that play out in your professional life um yes so I at university also was at uni but then I had kind of mum and dad in my ear and they kept saying to me well what
4:50Esther Marshall:else are you doing what sport are you playing what clubs are you doing are you working as well um and so I got a internship at Unilever while I was at uh university and I worked in the factory there was the deodorant factory. So understanding all around supply chain, sustainability, fascinating. But it kind of meant that while I was at university, I was doing that plus everything else. And I wasn't necessarily, had a great university experience, but when I look back on it, it was again, this constant achievement. I can't just be doing my degree. I need to be doing kind of 10 things out around it.
5:27Esther Marshall:And I then, I mean, I loved working for Unilever. They were just absolutely brilliant. I kind of fell in love with it. And I applied for the graduate program and got onto the graduate scheme and went in straight after university into Unilever head office, Blackfriars, you show up first aid, unbelievable office. And you think, my goodness, I've, I've made it, I've achieved. And then you walk through the door and you go, ah, there's so much more for me to do here. Um, and I wanted to climb the ladder. I wasn't happy kind of just sitting and getting the next promotion after two or three years, like others, I wanted to go to the point that I had so many line managers.
6:11Esther Marshall:Like I got incredible grades at Unilever because you get graded, but my feedback was always, we don't know how to manage you because you, we, you do what we say. And then you bring us proposals for three other things that you've done and I genuinely don't know what to say to you I don't know what to do and so it was kind of my always my biggest strength and weakness in that I was always running and I needed to learn sometimes how to walk it was just my life's just been a sprint and that was really good feedback sometimes say actually we need to walk but that is what I kind of worked my way up quite quickly and had teams whereby I was older than a lot of the people that were kind of reporting into me which was also interesting to navigate.
6:53Esther Marshall:But for me, it was always just achieve, achieve, achieve the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.
6:59Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:And at that point, what impact was, was it having any impact on you?
7:02Esther Marshall:At that point? No, I just thought this is normal. This is normal. I had the pressure from my parents of why are you going into business? I don't understand. That's not going to help anyone. You're not giving back. Why are you not going to be a doctor or a nurse or you know somewhere or a charity worker there was very much that sense of we don't understand and then uh quite a few of my parents friends who are in the business world said you know the graduate program at Unilever is quite highly prestigious there's only a certain amount of people that get on and you see when I got onto it I thought that was amazing but then it was well we we don't really understand so that automatically kind of put it down the peg of well I haven't achieved what I thought I'd achieved therefore within this place I need to achieve more um and so that's kind of how it started then they were they said okay fine we understand that this is prestigious and I kind of made my way into kind of sustainability uh innovation and diversity inclusion very much but helping and I was there in the Paul Polman era the unbelievable sustainability our brands must do good and so everything that I was working on was how do we give back?
8:13Esther Marshall:I got some of the most unbelievable trips like going to the Philippines to look at some of the work that we were doing and helping women in rural areas and work my way up so that I was global leader of gender diversity for the entire company and absolutely loved what I did and loved the company and loved the people.
8:30Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Congratulations on doing that because that is phenomenal and I can even see as you're talking about it the passion of that work. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call.
9:05Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. Well, I'm curious to know with you being such a high achieving leader, what impact did that have on the team? Did you find that you set very high standards for your team members as well? Or did you recognize by then actually maybe some people couldn't work like you do?
9:23Esther Marshall:Yeah. So one of my biggest also strength and weaknesses, I've done a lot, because my mum was American, I've done a lot of work and kind of therapy and who I am. And because I started on the HR program very much around what my personality is, et cetera, and my EQ is so high that it's a strength and a weakness and so I had to be I was so aware if there was someone in my team struggling that I would almost go above and beyond and I didn't necessarily need to go as above and beyond as I did but I cared and it was like if you're in my team it's it's a family so you know when there were redundancies I would negotiate and I would It didn't necessarily have to, but it was, it was, do I have this team and am I helping them?
10:07Esther Marshall:So that whole thread of, am I giving back? Am I helping? Kind of came into the team as well.
10:12Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Was it ever confusing in terms of, I need you all to achieve. And then I've got obviously this very high, I'm going to protect you and stuff like that. Did it ever conflict with each other?
10:22Esther Marshall:I think from what most people, I mean, speak to people reporting to me, but most of the time I got decent feedback was, we respect you we but we find you quite hard to manage but we love the work that we're doing and
10:41Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:we respect you so we're going to do it if that makes sense so the respect really yeah and I
10:46Esther Marshall:learned that very early from Paul and the c-suite around you're not really there to be liked and that's where I made the mistake in my first managerial position was I want all these people to really like me and I want to be their friend and I want to go out with them in the weekend and this and then I learned very quickly that wasn't about that it was about actually do they respect the fact that you're working hard and you're achieving and the values that you're bringing into the team and so that's where I found it aligned. Okay and then to go into then in terms of you've then had quite a run yeah of some very very challenging areas in your life that
11:22Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:if it's fair to say for me it's probably tested how you navigate using everything you've learned and how you deal with what life has thrown at you where would you like to start in your story
11:34Esther Marshall:of sharing some of those yeah I feel like I should walk around with a sign on my head that says trigger warning um trauma because everything was going quite nicely um and then I got married fell pregnant and was on maternity leave and felt very, very underwhelmed. I was so used to working so hard, late, always, always busy and my brain always working. And then I had my son and my body was working all day, every day, but my brain wasn't. And I, I really struggled and I need my brain to be working. And my sister said to me, look, you're getting frustrated at the fact that you don't have what you want to read to your son, the toys, the gifts, everything that bringing a boy into this world, especially from a gender diversity point of view, that was all I knew.
12:32Esther Marshall:That was my bread and butter. How do I bring up this boy man to be a good man in this world? And so my sister said to me, look, if you're up feeding him in the night, and I was like, he was not a good sleeper. Why don't you write the book that you want to read him? So that's what I did. And she was becoming a junior doctor and she loved to draw, really helped kind of calm her down from all the stress. And so I said, right, let's make this a maternity leave project. Let's do this so that I'm still using my brain and we can do it together. So I wrote the first kind of Sophie Says book. and Sophie was mine and my sister's imaginary friend that we grew up with when we were younger.
13:13Esther Marshall:Sophie says, I can, I will, which is really kind of love letter to my son of you will meet women from every background possible, listen to them, learn from them, and you will achieve what you want because regardless of who you are, where you're from, if you bring other people in and you listen to the wealth of experience that other people have, you essentially will grow. and that was Sophie Says I Can I Will. Now my sister became incredibly stressed and depressed from being a junior doctor in the kind of lead up to COVID as you can imagine. She was on A &E rotation and it was just horrendous and so she said she couldn't do the illustrations but I got somebody else to do the illustrations.
13:58Esther Marshall:She saw the first book and she read it to my son and in the January leading up to the March of lockdown, she was living with my parents at the time and mum came home to a very dark house and normally my sister would have been home. And so she went up to Rebecca's room and found that she had stripped the sheets. She tidied up her entire room, had taken everything out and left a note on the bed and said, I can't give all these patients what they want anymore. More people are dying left, right and center and I can't give back. I can't make it okay. And therefore I don't feel I can be here. I know you're going to want to, sorry, I know you're going to want to find where I am.
14:45Esther Marshall:So this is where I've gone. And my mom just phoned me and I remember on that day I went home early from work, which I've never, ever done. I just called my husband and said, I don't know why I keep bursting into tears for no apparent reason whatsoever.
15:02Esther Marshall:And I got home and my mum called and she's like screaming down the phone. I can still remember the scream. I went straight over. I started to get, it was like, there's no way this could be. There's absolutely no way in a million years that this could be happening. I started to log on to see if we could find kind of, you know, like an Oyster card or something that we could work out where she'd gone. The police said they were on their way. the police knocked on the door and I was right up in their face I've got everything I know where she is take me there we're going to go and they just said to me madam please sit down um and I remember where I still can't sit in this place when I go back to my parents house now and that particular part of the sofa they said we're so sorry we found your sister she is deceased and for me everything everything changed in that moment like everything it didn't matter what I'd thought or felt for 20 odd years of my life like everything changed in that instance um I took a week off and then went back into work um and I think for anyone that's gone through any form of grief we think we need to go back quicker than we do and as soon as I walked back into the door everyone just assumed okay she's back let's go um and I think that was partly on me because I felt I needed to achieve but I was so not ready to be back and I was so not ready to be okay um and in the night that she passed away I wrote the next book Sophie Says It's Okay Not to be okay basically a love letter to her of I wish you knew this I wish you knew that it was okay not to be okay and that we could have helped you through that and that you could still be here because there's so much more that you can do and that we can do together and that I want every child in the world to know that and for nobody else to experience what she went through and what we went through as a family and that's when I realized I need to be doing this and so I spoke to Unilever and I said I I just feel so connected to Sophie says and they were amazing they said you know why don't you stay for a bit because in all of these corporate organizations that the thing that you have that they need is a knowledge of ten years of being there you know so many people that we need you to kind of download your brain.
17:39Esther Marshall:Um, we understand, we don't want you to go. Um, but we understand the pull and the purpose and everything we'd ever done in Unilever was around purpose and brands. So it was a, you know, um, so they, they said, go down to four days a week and try on this five fifth day to see whether you can make this work, to see whether it's okay with you because it also was hurting and then we went into lockdown and I was working from home with my son and trying to kind of keep up this senior job but also trying to do this and then and yeah but grief actually paused because well it was numbed I wouldn't say it was paused because Rebecca with the stress and the depression that she experienced wanted to speak face to face not on the phone because she always wanted to see your face because she would always get worried are you saying something on the phone but you're not actually meaning it so I just basically said to myself well once we're out of lockdown I'll open the door and she'll be there and so actually lockdown for me was calmer than I expected it to be because I was so numb and I had this complete unrealistic expectation that we'll all come out this hasn't happened this is just a really bad bad nightmare and I'll open the door and she'll be there and she wasn't and that post-Covid part for me when everybody else was getting back to their life when everybody else had kind of suffered during that part was worse for me and that was really difficult because everybody else was getting back to their life but for me life was never going to be the same again and I was
19:25Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:completely and utterly broken first of thank you for sharing and i'm sorry you so sorry you experienced that um and i just think it's wonderful that your sister lives within sophie says and i think it's beautiful that i think these were your words that you've poured so much pain into purpose and to allow her to still live and have a voice and i think that's incredible but what is remarkable of your story is that was just the start of what was happening to you what would you like to share
19:59Esther Marshall:next there's just one thing I'd like to say about Rebecca before that in that I've tried to bring in in that the day that she passed away we had to send out an email to her friends and family and a few friends and family were there with us because they already knew and we pressed send on the email and I kid you not, the sky went dark and then out of nowhere, this massive rainbow came out. And me and my dad pressed up against the window and said, she's safe. She's telling us she's safe. And so on the front of it's okay not to be okay, we've put this big rainbow and there's rainbows all throughout.
20:39Esther Marshall:And so anytime there's any rainbow anywhere in the world, my phone goes off because it's like she's here. And that for me is like the best therapy because it's people showing that they care. And I'm not very good at asking for help as a high achiever at all. I really struggle with it. So for me, that was a big piece that when someone sends me the rainbow and they're thinking of her and then all the children that are reading that. Can know that she's there, like silently, but she's there.
21:13Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Beautiful. Beautiful. But I will ask you then in terms of before we actually go to the next with losing Rebecca, what had that shifted in you already in terms of how you viewed achievement and giving back? Had it changed that lens at this point? Yes, it changed massively, but actually it was
Read the full transcript
21:32Esther Marshall:harder because I suddenly had this shift of not only do I need to achieve for myself, I need to achieve for Rebecca. And if I don't, I'm letting her down and I'm letting her legacy down. And I cannot do that. So even in the tough moments at Unilever, when I felt maybe I was a failure, I could deal with my emotions. But now I've got this big legacy to uphold. And if I don't do that, that's on me and I found that whilst trying to build Sophie says into what we'll talk about later even harder because there's even more pressure that I'm putting on myself I'm fully
22:14Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:aware but it's not just me anymore you're carrying I'm carrying something much bigger yeah I can only relate to that on a slightly smaller scale is when I lost my father it was like I have to live now to make him proud and be the person because he'll never see it but had I think I maybe because I was 18 had a thing that if I do really well and achieve and proud maybe he will see it maybe there is a way that they could see if I do really well and there is this it does come with quite a heavy suitcase to carry around with you oh yeah yeah a lot I believe they can see it I think
22:51Esther Marshall:that's also why I feel it I'm like they can see every move I'm making so I better make them good
22:58Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:moves make them worthwhile and make them worthwhile and that's the challenge in itself it's heavy
23:04Esther Marshall:what happened after that what happened after that um almost straight away was that both my grandparents got alzheimer's and deteriorated um and pretty much about seven months after rebecca passed away than grandma uh grandpa passed away and then a year literally a year to the date after grandma grandpa passed away and so they were up in Leeds so it was kind of going up and down as much as we could sitting with them for hours even though they'd kind of forgotten who we were taking photos talking to them and anyone who's been through Alzheimer's I had a family member that's been through it's incredibly challenging um and so it meant that I was trying to juggle I was still at Unilever at that point because I stayed for another 18 months after because again I didn't feel like I'd let them down and I needed to achieve and pass on everything that I needed to and then eventually got to a point where I said okay I feel like I can.
24:12Esther Marshall:And that was kind of one after the other, after the other. Meanwhile, we had been trying to have another baby at some point because I thought if I'm going to go high in my career, I kind of want to get them out, you know, not too much of an age gap, but you know, best laid plans. And we found out that I'd got very seriously ill with sepsis when my son was born, which meant a lot of different things happened, but it meant that there was no way that we could conceive and I had to go through IVF. So I was trying to do IVF whilst looking after grandparents. I had a miscarriage. And for anyone that's been through IVF, they test you so often.
24:58Esther Marshall:So they actually called me to say that they could see the levels were going down. And so they knew a miscarriage was coming and so at some point over the next five days I would miscarry because you do it so you know it's it's coming so you have the grief when they call you over the phone which I also didn't realize was coming um and then I was still going up to Leeds helping my grandpa and I I miscarried whilst I was traveling and with them and and And it was painful, really, really painful. And it just felt like this loss was, it just kept going. It's like Rebecca, then grandma, then grandpa, then this.
25:46Esther Marshall:And then we got our miracle. The next round worked and I got our miracle. And she was four weeks old when mum was then diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And she was given three months. And at this point, I then got shingles because I was just so run down. But she was on such a stringent chemo, hardcore chemo, and a stringent diet. And my dad's from that generation where he wouldn't know how to cook if he tried. So I'm a four-week-old, a four-year-old, trying to do Sophie Says at the same time. and bring Rebecca with me whilst also trying to cook everything we possibly could for mum. And you couldn't have anything more than 12 hours because of bacteria.
26:38Esther Marshall:There were so many rules. And then we started to live our life on chemo days, non-chemo days, having to be incredibly strict with any germ control. I couldn't go on the tube to meetings. So a lot of the time if people needed it, I had to try and find other ways. But then if she needed me, I couldn't. So a lot of things were paused and it really felt like I wasn't achieving at all.
27:04Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:And how was that affecting you as a person?
27:06Esther Marshall:A lot. I was really struggling. Because what were you making it mean? I was complete failure. Right, okay. I was an absolute complete failure during that time. I'm trying to be, there's a photo of me cooking whilst breastfeeding my baby and on a court because I was trying to do everything because I thought if I didn't, I'm failing my mum, I'm failing my baby, I'm failing Rebecca and I'm failing myself. And I found that too difficult to live with. So I just thought, well, you just have to keep going and doing it all. And a mum considering reacted incredibly well because that three months turned into two years and that two years was unbelievable that we got that with her.
27:51Esther Marshall:She was a doctor, So she kind of diagnosed herself early, which was unbelievable.
27:58Esther Marshall:But then the deterioration came. I won't go into details. That was horrifically traumatic watching someone deteriorate like that, especially an incredibly strong woman having everything taken away from her. And the final two weeks was me literally just stood by her bedside, catching anything that would come up the bile because she wasn't eating. That was it. She couldn't talk, nothing. She could just hold your hand.
28:31Esther Marshall:And then she passed away just under a year ago. And I lost this kind of, even though it was a very strict voice from her, I lost that. And I lost my childcare because she would come and help. And I then, actually, if we just rewind, fell pregnant without knowing because they told us that we would never be able to. And I just assumed that I was unwell and stressed. And the doctors did my bloods and said, actually, we think you might have liver cancer. Actually, no, I was just 10 weeks pregnant. Wow. and so we say he was our miracle because mum walked into her consultant's office and said you better keep me alive to see my next grandchild and she passed away kind of five months after he was born so that's what he did but it it meant that I had a 16 month age gap looking after mum mum deteriorating I still hadn't necessarily even though I'd done grief counseling I hadn't necessarily dealt with all of that and all along I'm just trying to achieve I'm trying to lead a family I'm trying to lead a business I'm trying to lead myself I'm trying to help my family who's seriously grieving because we've never got up from any grief it's just been an absolute
29:57Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:constant and and it was a struggle it still is yeah I can see yeah and you made a decision the day your mum died to run the marathon yes which is quite unusual like and it's so interesting because that again that sense of achievement from you and needing to give back like how did
30:23Esther Marshall:that decision even cross your mind I ask myself that daily why have I done this I'm from somebody who's never run um I'm sat down at the moment but I am four foot ten and a half I am I'm not a runner I'm not built for that um and I I sat there for that kind of three months watching her deteriorate and the night that she passed away I went and sat with her and as I was sat with her which I probably shouldn't have done I think because my parents were doctors it just became so normal that we talked about all of this stuff but sitting next to your mother after she died for a good like five six hours is not what I would suggest anyone does because I then had recurring nightmares constantly for four months afterwards um but I just said I have to do something to help and with Rebecca it was I can give this back and make her legacy but with mum with pancreatic cancer.
31:23Esther Marshall:I wasn't a doctor. I'm not a doctor. I've known so many people now who've been through this horrendous disease. And what do they need? They need money for research. I said, well, what is it that I could tell people that I'm doing that would be the biggest challenge that I could try and raise as much as we humanly possibly could. I know what I'll do. I'll run a marathon. Really not understanding what that is. You just see people, yeah. What an undertaking that is on your body, on your mental health, on your physical health, on everything, on your family life because of the training. But I got a place and I said, this is a sign.
32:13Esther Marshall:And I got a place, so I now have to do it. And for six months in the freezing cold winter, I went out three times a week and ran and trained and grieved a lot. I would actually take videos as a grief journey of me kind of halfway into a run, just bawling my eyes out. because it was the first time since I'd had kids or since Rebecca passed away that I'd had any time to myself. And it just came out in floods. And it was healthy, definitely healthy. I mean, I consumed a huge amount of content like this podcast and many others while I was running, but the grief would just come and it would help. It would help me be a better person because I can go back instead of my level being up here, it's it just let a little bit of air out and I okay I could come back to here so it wasn't fast it hurt but it it was quite nice because for so long I'd been so numb I finally felt some pain and I also let out some pain and that played out in different ways of oh but I'm doing this and therefore I'm feeling good about myself but this is supposed to be about mum so there was a guilt there but for the majority of it it was I'm doing something that's really going to help and mum would have definitely told me don't do it as a doctor don't do that on your body that's not a good idea but it did help my grief and I think both her and Rebecca would be and my grandparents would be proud of that and it galvanized so many people we managed to raise 38 000 pounds incredible when you're like the top 10 top 10 the 10th top fundraiser so your achievement still came into raising the money yes and which you know everyone was saying that's so amazing and what did i say straight away well i'm not number one it's not enough it's not enough that's the trap isn't it but the gap was so big the person who was number one was 150 ,000 I was like there's just no way I can get there and so I need to I need to try and be happy with that and know pancreatic cancer UK were unbelievable and they explained what the money is going to get and it's it's game-changing so I'm really proud of it but there's that high achieving niggle that I think so many people listening will probably have of but I want to do more because what was that you had a breakthrough
34:53Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:with your therapist in recognizing how you were seeing things were actually keeping you stuck. And it was the example of the marathon and also the position you came and the time you did. Can you take us through? Because I've actually tried to relay this to a few people because it resonated with me so much because even I was like, oh my God, I've done that. And I know my husband's done it and I just see it in so many people's behaviors. Can you talk us through what that breakthrough was yeah it's been game-changing for me in that the day of the marathon you train for
35:26Esther Marshall:anyone that's done it you train in the freezing cold and then of course the one day of summer that you get is on marathon day and so you've trained for something you've said I'm going to fuel at this time I'm going to eat this at this time and then it's completely different and I've I've never done anything like that in my life. Any exam, any promotion, I have worked my way there. I have studied as much as I possibly can. And then I've gone in for what I know I'm going in for. This was, I went in on that day. I mean, yes, I'm pleased I trained, but I might as well not have done because it was completely different.
36:04Esther Marshall:And so it meant my time was completely different to what I had set myself a target. And crossing that finishing line felt great at the time, but almost instantly the day after, I felt like I'd completely failed myself and my family and mum and everybody because it was a slower time than I wanted it to be. And this kind of breakthrough was, I actually need to be proud of the fact of the journey. So the fact that I took myself out to go training, the fact that my kids saw me every time putting on these big yellow running shoes, saw that they understood that if you commit to something and you put the work in, you can get something out.
37:01Esther Marshall:both physically and mentally. And I had people back to the house after the marathon and I said, look, so many people say to me, you've been through so much, it's so hard. But actually this, this training and building, Sophie says, are two of the hardest things I've ever done because it's for one reason only. And if I didn't show up, none of this would happen. Rebecca, grandma, grandpa, mom, the miscarriage, they were all going to happen. They were all completely out of my control, but this is in my control. And if I'm not controlling it, I'm then going to spiral because I'm actually hurting myself in thinking this way.
37:48Esther Marshall:And so we have to flip it. That time was what it was. What did I do on that day? I helped my sister, my uncles from California came over my dad I helped them grieve so much they said that was the biggest relief they have ever had on that day the atmosphere of the marathon pancreatic cancer UK put on something afterwards where all the people got together and everyone could speak to different family members so help people with their grief I helped my children see that you can do hard things and more I was proud of myself you know one percent of the population achieve it and I achieved it and I ran that whole way and I did it and that actually if we can flip things completely 180 the way you see life it's been game-changing the past month because this is only recent this I only finished it literally a month ago.
38:53Wow. If I look at all of those times in my life that I hadn't flipped it and how horribly I'd spoken to myself and how much that affected me, friendships, family,
39:09Esther Marshall:everything, because I completely almost locked myself away. If I felt like I was failing, I didn't want to see anyone because I didn't want it to come up in conversation because I I didn't want to have to talk about how I was feeling. Instead of, I'm so proud that I did this and I'm so proud that I did that, that actually I wrote something down. It was that I'm failing quietly, but actually what I want to do is succeed loudly. Wow. And that's what's changed for me and it's game changing.
39:40Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call.
40:09Esther Marshall:Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode.
40:13Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:so in this last month in terms of what is that allowed so i know going into like sophie says is now your purpose what you're driving behind and it's a movement you're building i know we've got the books here but it's bigger than the book isn't it you've got animation you've got cards interactive things with children it's a real movement um and i think you shared with me that you want to create generational change and this is your and i think this breakthrough has really unlocked that actually now you can do that because actually before you flipped it it was keeping you stuck where this flip is now going well if I want to create generational change I need to be able to you know was it succeed loudly succeed loudly you succeed loudly so how has that now changed your mindset with what you're doing with Sophie Says it's so interesting because people
40:58Esther Marshall:would say to me how's it going with the book like we saw people on the weekend and I sit there in my head it's not a book I'm building a massive brand that's going to be game-changing is going to make generational change. And then I realized once I learned this flip of like, why am I getting angry at other people in my head? Not to them. I have never said what I want to achieve because I'm too scared of failing. I'm too scared of what people are going to think. And I have to throw that rule book out and shout it from the rooftops. This is what I want to do. This is what I'm going to do. It's not even a want.
41:35Esther Marshall:I will succeed in this because that is who I am. And I've got so many legacies now not just Rebecca's but we started up a foundation for Sophie Says to give back our school program so that we can just give it to schools rather than having to pay. I've got a lot resting on this and I know that it could be something but what changed for me is I now have to succeed loudly. I have to tell people what I'm doing whereas before I wasn't telling anyone. It was, you have to achieve by yourself, only by yourself, because if you ask for help, you failed. Whereas now I'm succeeding loudly because I'm out there telling people about what I'm doing, asking people for help because you can't go on a journey alone.
42:23Esther Marshall:I was stifling myself by doing that. And now it's been unbelievable because now I'm telling people what I'm doing. that I'm also starting to believe it myself. Whereas when you're sat in a room by yourself, working on it all day, every day, which technically I have done over the past three, four years, because I've been inside of a hospital for one or the other for about four years. So I've lost friends and colleagues and everything. I haven't been able to keep up with people because life has just been lifing for want of a better term. Now I need to go out there and tell people what I'm trying to do rather than how's the book no no this is generational change kids don't need perfect parents they need emotionally safe parents we as a population because we didn't have that growing up emotional resilience is is the most unkept need in this entire generation how do we give that back and how to create a next generation that's got resilience because they're going to need that with everything they've got with confidence in order to able in order to be able to achieve and with that this emotional well-being that they can take with them that that is what sophie says it's going to do which is so exciting and i've now got loads of curious
43:39Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:questions about it because when i hear you say now achievement and then i say you hear you say well-being has your view of achievement shifted over the years now of everything you've been through and this breakthrough you've had has what achievement means to you change in terms of do you feel enough now can you look at yourself and say I'm enough yeah and I and I think what
44:02Esther Marshall:changed that was this mindset but also having the children of if I teach them the mindset that I've had I don't want that for them I really really don't want that for them I get that being a high achieving person means that you will achieve stuff and it you know you need some of those people but I don't want that pressure that I've had my entire life and that voice that I've had inside my head my entire life that has made me feel like I don't belong anywhere. I don't want that for them. I really don't. I want them to do something that they're passionate about and you can bring out certain elements of that, but it doesn't need to be as stringent and as harsh.
44:42Esther Marshall:And so I keep saying to myself, would I say that to my kid? No, I wouldn't. So why am I saying that to myself? because they look at me. They're learning from you. They're learning from me. Yeah. And so I've had to completely switch that and it's made me a completely, completely much more freer person because of it. More relaxed.
45:04Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Yeah. Because I know with your story doing Sophie Says, it meant that you did need to leave the security of a nice big salary and benefits and stuff. And I know you've got a wonderful husband. how has that managed your mindset now in terms of giving back I know contribution is very important to you in terms of the contribution you can give to the family while you do so if he says how are
45:24Esther Marshall:you now navigating that and that that was a point that really got to me on the high achieving because I don't know whether other people think this I think for many people they do but for me my worth was attached to my salary which was wonderful and I had this team and I had this big salary and it was oh when I'd see friends oh Esther's going to be late of course she's going to be late because she's working here or she's flying to this place with this c-suite member or this or whatever and I loved it I loved I was you know getting awards doing speaking I absolutely loved that and then I was in my front room by myself not being able to collaborate and I'm much more of a collaborator just bouncing ideas I will then want to go and achieve it but having that conversation and understanding that diversity of thought for me was so important and I didn't have that and so for me it just it really sent me down this kind of rabbit hole of you're failing you're not going to be able to do this but now that we're kind of talking about it loudly and it's getting out there there's a confidence again that I didn't have yeah I really didn't and I think I had to brush past that if I might not fit in I might not be liked by everybody but that's okay and what I'm trying to do is something bigger than fitting in I'm actually trying to disrupt so if I'm going to disrupt I'm not going to fit in and so that's why I haven't fit in my entire life because I'm a disruptor and embrace the fact that you're a disruptor is is basically where I've got to but it's taken me 36 years to get there some people never get
47:24Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:there so the fact and what is so beautiful listening to you the way you articulate and express and I can see the thoughts processing as you're talking it's so clear and it's so lovely to sit and listen to your story and where you are now sitting because I can just see that everything you're learning is going to pour into Sophie says into this like amazing movement that you're doing and the fact that do you feel, can you ask for help now? Yes.
47:53Esther Marshall:The past three weeks I have asked for more help than I have in my entire life, professionally. I still don't feel I can pull on friends or I still feel like that has to be me. So I still am doing a lot more in terms of family life myself. Haven't got there yet. But professionally, yes. I've I've gone out and just asked who do you know who can I meet how can I go because for the first time in five years I'm able to go out and go into town and meet people whereas before I'd ask for a meeting and you'd get a yes from someone senior and say can you make this time I couldn't I was sat next to mum or I was in up in Leeds you know I couldn't make that and so I didn't want to ask because some of these people, if you get a yes and you say no, you're never going to get a yes again.
48:48So I'm now finally at a stage, fingers crossed, everything stays as it is,
48:54Esther Marshall:that I can now fly, I can now run again. I have been walking for a long time. To tie it back in, I guess, from where we started, I'm ready to run again.
49:05Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Pun, not intended for the marathon, but with Sophie Says. You feel you can go a bit faster, but you think it will be healthier this time. Measured. Measured, healthier, balanced. And I think it's normal. I've said in my own life, I'm going to do this now. I'm going to have breaks. And then very quickly, the old habits come back in. And then before you know it, and my husband catches it probably before I do, and he's like, I can just see that looks happening or is that. And I'm like, oh, yeah. And then I just have to bring myself back. So I think when you've got this sort of overachiever, achiever, improve myself pattern, it doesn't, I think necessarily just disappear.
49:40Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:It just now takes management.
49:42Esther Marshall:Yes.
49:43Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:I think. And if people listening, you know, we've got people sitting in corporate at the moment who've got a dream to do a movement like you all do, but maybe there's fear or there's people that have left and they're founders and they're sitting there and, you know, you've got three children, things, things, you know, maybe they've got things going on with their family and stuff. What message would you like to pass on to them that they, you know, something that you needed to hear when you were really in
50:07Esther Marshall:the thick of it yeah I think just stick with it don't quit especially if you're that high achiever it's it's gonna be a lonely lonely journey it's painfully lonely but if you don't quit you'll get there I can't tell you how quickly or how long that's gonna be but don't quit and enjoy the journey because that's what I'm doing now and I'm enjoying it finally. Is it taking pressure off you? Yeah.
50:38Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Yeah.
50:39Esther Marshall:Because someone said to me something, because I kept saying life's so short, I need to do this. No, Esther, life is supposed to be long. It's just that I've only experienced life being short because of what I've been through. Life is supposed to be long. So enjoy the journey and make something of that journey because people will remember the journey. Even if it died tomorrow, people still remember, as Sophie says, whether it's the new, what I'd like it to be, the new Peppa Pig or whether it is as it is now. Get people on you with the journey, enjoy it and achievement will come because of that.
51:22Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Yeah. So don't focus on what the thing is you have to achieve. Maybe know what you'd like to do. But I was always so focused on there that I couldn't enjoy the journey.
51:31Esther Marshall:Yeah. And if anything, you were keeping yourself stuck. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just really curious to know, what does courage mean to you? Courage to me is to get up and fight through that pain. Because I don't talk about it viscerally as much. I don't say to friends, oh, while we're out and we're sat there, actually what I'm thinking about is this and it's so painful. all every day I'm I'm getting up and I'm fighting through the pain disrupting to make a difference that's courage in my eyes to keep showing up to keep showing up yeah because there were there have been plenty of days where I said that I'm not showing up today and I did and I pushed that every single day and some of those days are harder like I give myself Rebecca's anniversary and next week's actually would be Rebecca's birthday.
52:28Those two days in the year, I don't make any plans.
52:33Esther Marshall:And I see how the day goes and I just play it by ear, especially her, the day that she passed away because with a suicide, you get a police report because they have to make sure that nothing untoward is going on and they detail everything that happened in the day.
52:49Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Oh God, I didn't know that.
52:50Esther Marshall:Yeah. So, I mean, we got that through from the police because it was COVID, it was supposed to be face-to-face. We got it through on email. I got it through an email, just threw up everywhere. So every year from, you know, everybody else says happy new year when it comes to December, Rebecca passed away in January the 27th. So from January the 1st to January 27th, I am a wreck because every day I'm thinking, oh, we're one day closer to 27th. I'm going to have to relive 10 o 'clock, 11 o 'clock, 12. Because you know the whole day. I know the whole thing. I know exactly what happened when and how and what.
53:25Esther Marshall:and that's horrendous for me and and I can't sit there with people and explain that to them because you you just become this person that no one wants to spend time with if I talk through all of that so I I can't necessarily do that but for me courage is fighting through that pain and being the disruptor to make the change so that nobody else has to go through this again
53:52Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:beautifully said thank you thank you I can't tell you how many goosebumps I had throughout that whole episode of just listening to you because it is so inspiring and for you also to have the courage to come on and share very openly really what you truly experienced um I know people listening this is going to help massively and what I want to make sure while you're here and you've learned how to ask for help what help are you needing right now to really get this generational
54:20Esther Marshall:change happening i need doors opened um because that's what i'm finding i'm kind of bashing down doors i need we have a product it's got a market fit everybody who's bought it has said they absolutely love it and they want more but i can't scale because i've only ever been in unilever where i've worked on scaled brands i am not the person to scale this i'm the person to create and the person to come and bring the purpose and the founder led story and everything and build in public but what i i need are people to come on board and and help i don't i won't be able to pay salaries or whatever but people that can open doors from get behind this cause get behind it yeah and say we can see that this is going to be something yeah we want to get on board kind of a few people have said to me got senior leaders who have either been made redundant or aren't working anymore, but have that know how to do this, that can come on board, that understand the message, could be a co-founder, COO, all of that stuff.
55:22Esther Marshall:I am not the person to scale this. And I think that's also courage of understanding when you need to step back. I can be the face, but at some point I want this to run without there being my face on it. And we need to get it to a point where we can do that, which I believe it can go to. you know, with toys potential. I mean, there's so many brand partnerships I can think of and places that we could go with it. I just need doors. Opened. Even a jar. Once I'm through the door, I'm happy to take over and talk about it. But it's the doors being opened is really what I need. Okay.
56:06Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:Well, I hope this episode, we're going to get this out to as many people as possible. And I hope this episode helps with that. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming. It's just a pleasure now that you're in my world and seeing how we can get behind this for you. And I'm going to do thank you for everyone listening. And if you are listening, sitting here going, you want to get behind a cause. You want to help Esther do generational change. You want to bring emotional resilience to children. I actually think the knock on effect is going to help adults as well and connect.
56:32Esther Marshall:That's part of it because we never grew up with this. Yeah. So how can we give something to parents, teachers and children? Yeah. have a kind of triangle model that helps everybody because we won't talk this no so this is starting the conversation and then all the things that come after help embed the conversation that's
56:52Courageous Leaders Podcast Host:brilliant thank you everyone to listening and watching and we'll see you next week if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact. We fund this podcast ourselves, so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you. Thank you for being part of the journey.
From the publisher
Some people don’t just achieve, they achieve as though their life depends on it. In this deeply honest episode of The Courageous Leaders Podcast, I sit down with Esther Marshall, former global gender diversity leader at Unilever and founder of Sophie Says, to ask a question so many of us avoid: who are you when achievement isn’t enough?
This is a conversation about grief, high achievement, emotional resilience, and the pressure of holding everything together when life refuses to cooperate. Esther shares her story with extraordinary openness: losing her sister Rebecca to suicide, caring for grandparents through Alzheimer’s, a miscarriage during IVF, and losing her mother to pancreatic cancer, all while building a business and refusing to stop proving herself. It is also the story of the breakthrough that finally let her stop failing quietly and start succeeding loudly. If you have ever tied your worth to what you achieve, this one will stay with you.
If you or someone you know is affected by anything discussed in this episode, you can contact Samaritans free, 24/7, on 116 123 or at samaritans.org.
What We Cover:
00:00 Intro
01:30 Why "High Achiever" Can Tip Into "Never Enough"
04:41 Climbing the Ladder at Unilever, and Being "Hard to Manage"
10:14 Leading a Team When Your Standards Are Sky High
11:37 The Maternity Leave Project That Became Sophie Says
14:29 Losing Rebecca to Suicide
16:34 The Book Written the Night She Passed Away
20:21 The Rainbow, and Learning to Let People In
21:29 Carrying a Legacy, and the Weight That Comes With It
23:08 Alzheimer's, and Grief That Wouldn't Stop
24:18 IVF, Miscarriage, and Learning to Keep Going
25:48 The "Miracle" Baby, and a Mother's Pancreatic Cancer Diagnosis
30:13 Why She Chose to Run a Marathon the Day Her Mum Died
34:52 The Therapy Breakthrough That Changed Everything
38:46 "I'm Failing Quietly, but I Want to Succeed Loudly"
41:00 Building Sophie Says Into a Movement for Generational Change
48:53 Learning to Walk Before Running Again
50:13 A Message for Anyone Sitting in Fear, Ready to Begin
51:40 What Courage Really Means to Esther
Key Reflections:
• Why high achievement can quietly become a form of self-harm
• Why grief isn't something you "get over," and why returning to normal too quickly often makes healing harder
• How to separate your self-worth from your achievements and results
• Why asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness
• How changing the way you frame a failure can completely reshape your life
• Why children need emotionally safe parents, not perfect ones
Esther’s honesty is a reminder that courage isn’t the absence of pain, it’s getting up and showing up through it. If this episode moves you, I’d love to hear your biggest takeaway in the comments.
Find out more about Sophie Says: https://www.sophiesaysofficial.com/
Follow Esther Masrshall:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sophiesaysofficial/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thegrievingfounder
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