Formula E CMO: How Do You Drive Change Without Causing Chaos?

0:00You refer to yourself as a safe rebel, which is kind of a contradiction. I really enjoy positive sort of contradictions and I'm just generally sort of dissatisfied with the status quo. And for me, safe rebel comes much more from a place of changing assumptions versus going in and wanting to break everything and being sort of a rebellious person. From Formula One to Manchester United and now CMO of Formula E, Ellie Norman has spent 25 years shaping how some of the world's biggest sport supporting brands connect with their audiences, build global communities and drive lasting growth. With this kind of pace you've got, how do your team keep up with you?

0:38I would say definitely a question to ask them. What's the key thing in helping your team to keep going? There are three things that we will talk about. First one is to reflect. We're moving at such a pace that we forget how far we've come. Number two, the importance of recharging. We have a battery, so what are we doing to recharge that? which then gives us that best opportunity to keep going. And the third thing is... You refer to yourself as a safe rebel, which is kind of a contradiction. So I would love to start by knowing. How do you define that? Yeah, I think first of all, I really enjoy positive sort of contradictions.

1:17And I think that most probably comes through having spent my career working in marketing And often those points of tension is where you get creative unlocks and sort of really interesting sort of points to unlock growth. So I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is I'm just generally sort of dissatisfied with the status quo. And I think that comes from a place of having a really low tolerance for assumptions and being in businesses or organizations where there is an acceptance of, well, this is how we've always done things. and so for me the safe rebel comes much more from a place of changing assumptions versus going in and wanting to break everything and being sort of rebellious person and so I think that's how I get to a space of thinking about this kind of safe rebel so yes as a framework.

2:28I'm not going in to break things for the sake of breaking things. It's not about the people, but it is fundamentally around understanding sort of organizations. And when I look back at some of those organizations I've worked in, like Honda or sort of Formula One, Manchester United, it's very much been these are incredible businesses, incredible organizations with quite often a lot of legacy and tradition. And it's not about breaking everything that's gone before, but it is about really sort of understanding what the essence is, but being willing to not accept the status quo with a view to how do you unlock growth and how do you actually drive sort of relevancy.

3:16And that for me is where there is this sort of rebellious streak that will want to come through of understanding if we're in a house, where are the load-bearing beams that you have to sort of protect, but what else can be changed to reimagine or to sort of bring to life a vision and to be able to help to chart the next chapter and a new path? It sounds brilliant to me because I've spent my whole life going, I'm just safe, I'm just safe. and I'm not a rebel. It's either like black and white, you're safe or you're a rebel. And you get these CEOs come in and they want to like change everything up or you get a safe, but it doesn't change quick enough.

3:58And I love how you've married the two, that you can do both, that you can keep the pillars strong, but that doesn't mean you can't move the furniture around. Has that been something that's been innate in you since you were young? I think a large part, yes. and I think if you were to ask my mum aside from most of being a really challenging child I think if I was to reframe that I would mostly say just an overly curious child and what I sort of now reflect on and really appreciate was growing up with just an awful lot of freedom around and the ability to be outside, to grow up sort of in a farm environment and just have an imagination and a lot of outdoor space.

5:03but this innate curiosity I think has always been there and I mean when I say we were challenging children I think we had social services visited us because we were perhaps experimenting too much with things that we shouldn't experiment with at sort of a very young age. So you think you're maybe more rebellious then versus the safety? Like did the safety come in afterwards? I think the older you get But fear certainly creeps in in terms of your own mortality, of not hurting yourself. And actually, if you hurt yourself, what are the implications of that? Or I don't know, you can't work or et cetera, et cetera.

5:50Whereas, you know, from that young age, I never really had a fear filter, love speed. and so would sort of often just throw myself into just trying things. So there's elements of that I think I've kind of kept. And I would say perhaps a level of sort of courage of I will always want to give things a go, but really sort of recognising that I'm not perfect, I'm not the best at it, or I'm not a finished article, but I really want to sort of give things a go and to see how can I get better. And I think for me personally, it comes from doing it rather than the theory of it. Did you ever notice, obviously you've led lots of teams, you know, this attitude you've got, give it a go, see what happens.

6:52When you work with people that are too afraid to even give it a go, how do you navigate that? I'd like to think that over the sort of last 25 years, I'd like to think that through lots of lived experiences and how I've been led and what's worked well and what hasn't worked well, as well as being curious to kind of learn and understand more about leadership, I'd like to think I've improved. but I think in terms of really sort of understanding who you are yourself and how do you get the best out of yourself it's really important to be trying to put myself into my team's shoes who are in different positions different lived experiences and it's almost now I think the role of being a leader isn't to have all of the answers but it is to create an environment where there are better people around you that can just come up with much better answers and solutions and actually if there are people who are perhaps fearful of just trying things it's trying to perhaps get to a place where we can create a framework where you could have 70 percent which is you know this is going to work wonderfully 20 percent which is well within a I don't know particular channel we're going to optimize it here and 10 percent could just be for pure experimentation and forms of innovation and does that make it feel safer versus again back to this kind of safe level I'm not asking everyone to change everything because that wouldn't be responsible of me.

8:44But what I am kind of calling out is just a really low sort of tolerance and threshold for just accepting things where they are and not questioning how we can continuously look to drive improvement. And by having that as the objective, which is we're not here to settle, we're here to drive progress the next step for that is well how can that translate into a series of things that you might do differently and then if you're really thinking about how does that move into I don't know your planning what's the 70 % that you're going to take from the previous year what's the 20 % within certain sort of frameworks or channels that you're going to optimize and what is that sort of 10 % which just could be absolute experimentation innovation and does that almost start to give some people the sense of permission that we're doing this in a in a more controlled or measured way it makes sense because you've literally just helped someone have a framework of being a safe rebel.

9:56It's like, that is that design. And you say, and I think so many people want structure, they want clarity, they want certainty. And all of those things actually is what helps somebody to find that rebellious nature in them. And as you said, that permission, that safety. And I'm guessing once you follow that framework a few times, it becomes easier and that 20 % can become more experimental and things like that. And it's always asking, I think, yourself sort of questions. So actually is the first question we start and we ask ourselves is, well, what problem are we solving? What's worked before?

10:32What hasn't worked before? What would we do differently? What outcome are we looking to achieve? And again, if you apply that across your 70-20-10 framework, does it at least start to give you perhaps some hypotheses or some things that you can then go and test against. And so if you are someone that really does like that structure, does that feel a more structured way to continuously drive an innate curiosity for how can we improve things and make things better? You can also work on the opposite. Someone who's maybe too rebellious and breaks stuff, it kind of gives them the structure to respect and look after what is working and what has created some success.

11:14Very smart. We're going to have that. We're going to take that. um in terms of coming back to your story I know with growing up when we spoke before there was some roles of being the people pleaser yeah the good girl um you know you had quite a big family you know the oldest of five um siblings how did that really shape your story yeah Yeah. So I love being part of a big family. So on the one side, you can lose yourself. On the other side, there's always an awful lot going on. So it's great just seeing sort of how everyone is and sort of different stages. But when I was growing up, there is 11 years between me and my youngest sister so there's sort of five girls and I have an older stepbrother and an older stepsister as well and I think now again I think how hard that must have been to bring up five girls and my mum was working my stepdad was working so like really really busy And so I think, you know, straight away being the eldest, you do take on perhaps additional responsibility.

12:38And when there is an age gap like that, whether it's babysitting as you become a little bit older, but even prior to that of just being helpful because there is a lot of chaos and that just being helpful is, are you up on time? um if you're asked to do something once are you doing it or do you need repeat asking whether that's getting dressed and making your bed laying the table clearing the table stacking the dishwasher all of those things can you go and help with bath time and um and now I look and I I genuinely think I have no idea how my mum did everything and so I think from that again that super young age it's a case of be helpful and by being sort of helpful you get your recognition and that praise and perhaps that's actually something that sort of just grows over time and I think you know inevitably perhaps that's often been a behavior that was rewarded in school and when I started work again I think that was actually really really helpful because I started sort of work spent sort of five years agency side and again certainly as a in account services or sort of account exec account manager roles the ability to service your clients to be managing sort of relationships whether that's inside the agency or with your kind of client and putting your hand up saying yes delivering you are that dependable one super super helpful and I would say that actually that behavior and the results that derive from that behavior certainly helped me progress and then have opportunities presented to me that perhaps I wouldn't have had presented to me and so you know often when people ask me for advice younger sort of people I will say say yes more than you say no because you genuinely don't know what comes from that But I think as I then got older and more developed in my career and I started to move into sort of leadership positions, there's a distinction between being liked and being respected.

15:01And it's definitely sort of something that I spend quite a bit of time thinking about. so I'm really happy to sit here and say I absolutely care what people think about me but that doesn't stop me from doing what I think is the right thing and that sort of distinction of whenever it comes for me to have a difficult conversation what I'm thinking about is am I being kind to this person if I'm being kind to this person that is about being clear and providing clarity and is a conversation we're going to have now about me being liked or is this a conversation we're going to have now because I care about this person's future and how can I do that with as much respect as possible for that person because I do care about people but how can I provide that clarity because that's going to be the kindest thing for everyone all around and I find that with that lens it helps you move forward and take the action doesn't mean it makes it any more comfortable to do it's it and I actually had to sit with someone last week to go please take away the expectation that by becoming good at difficult conversations means it won't cause you any discomfort that's not the expectation to have to set for it's just that you do it regardless of how uncomfortable it still feels you know i've been doing it for years i'm trained on how to do it it still feels uncomfortable but you say it's doing the right thing and letting go of these like because i had it the good girl good girl role the people pleasing role like me role which can keep you say it can help because everyone sees you you're so helpful and i was known as go to joe But actually it comes with quite a cost in terms of then looking after your own needs and your own boundaries.

16:57As soon as I meet anyone that says there are people pleased, I'm like, oh, we need to work on some boundaries then and do that work. And I know another pattern that has shown up for you in your life and I would like to get curious about is that feeling of not feeling good enough. How does that manifest in you? I think it comes back to constantly being curious and not ever feeling that I've reached an end goal. And part of it, I think, has stemmed from having chosen sort of a different path. So not going through a traditional university path. and therefore in everything I do I'm always wanting to ensure that I'm learning enough what else should I be doing to develop myself to be able to add value in a sort of situation or a new challenge can I just ask quickly when you say that how much of that was strategically I need to add value versus I need to prove myself because I haven't got the university degree etc so I think again right at the sort of very beginning of my career it's about proving myself now I think if I'm being kind to myself and I'm looking at an evidence pot and I list out all of the proof points over the last 25 years, you could rationally say, I am enough and that I'm good at what I do.

18:44As human beings, we're not often that rational. And so now for me, it's again, I think I reframe quite a lot, but it's this reframing of of always wanting to be in a growth mindset point of view. So the fact that I'm never going to be the finished article when I go into a room, instead of feeling like I need to prove that I'm enough, it's what can I learn whilst I'm here with these people through kind of curiosity and asking questions to actually make myself a more rounded person and to understand sort of different perspectives. But again, it takes time to get to a point of when do you reframe that and what are those points of evidence that you've sort of collected over the course of years and years and years in work that I can now look at it as a positive.

19:44And again, that reframing of being curious, not settling or thinking that I'm a finished article is very much how do I continue to drive that progress? And when the landscape shifts, and quite frankly, it's constantly sort of changing, there is no certainty in our landscape. for me I find that really sort of quite energizing and motivating because it's a case of well how do I understand this a little bit better or what skills should I be learning so that I remain relevant and I can add value to a business or an organization or a team that I'm in someone listening or watching now we go again rationally that all sounds brilliant and it all makes sense but an emotional level and behavioral level that shift can be quite hard to make and listening to you is quite interesting when you say you know stacking that evidence and I've used that stacking the evidence but sometimes there's a part of me going isn't it sad as a human being we need to stack evidence to feel like we're enough versus just going actually I am enough and I'm just going to give it a shot what was can you remember it doesn't have to be the exact moment or a moment where the because I know for me I had such a prove myself energy for years and I think to be honest I think that fueled my drive was the need to prove myself until it became quite exhausting and starting to cost me do you remember that point where you were like this energy needs to change I've got to stop doing this to myself there's most of a couple of points I think opportunities that I've been given through kind of working.

21:29And the first one would have been 2012. And with the Marketing Society, I did the Marketing Leadership Program. And I think that that first point is being recognized by your boss or a leader that what is significant investment has been seen as worthwhile for you as an individual. So I'd say that's the first one. The second one was in 2020, I was selected to do the Marketing Academy Fellowship. And that was the first time that I was exposed to and actually had coaching. and I'd never understood the difference between mentoring and coaching um and that was that sort of first time and I started to really sort of understand one the difference and two the sort of value of that and since 2020 I've worked with Sil Sala as my coach who is absolutely sort of brilliant and I think um like the work is never done and one of the things that I'm sort of certainly always trying to remember is you're never in a fixed state and it's much more of perhaps a confidence journey and there'll be high points and low points and kind of maybe you're in your flow state and it's amazing but what triggers you being in perhaps each of those points or areas and what can be controlled or what is uncontrollable but you can influence but I think really sort of the starting to build up much more self-awareness and perhaps even just taking the pause and starting to kind of recognize well how is this showing up in you so where am I sitting in the seat I don't know is my breath change do I feel something in my sort of tummy or on my feet on the ground or like as soon I think you can run through life so so quickly that you actually become quite numb or unaware and I think just being able to kind of tune back in and then and then almost like in my head I'm like why has it made me feel like that and trying to then be very specific to say what has caused that why did that make me feel uncomfortable or what do I want to do as a result of that and I think really sort of taking a pause not sort of brushing it away being able to sit with it and then really recognizing i think when you take that pause and you sit with it we have a choice and you are in control of that choice now some might be easier than other choices but fundamentally that choice sits with you and that's when sort of inside my mind i can then sort of ask myself the questions and choose how to respond to this you just made me think it's been happening to me all week um I'm doing I'm in my last week of my master's essay and I'm writing and I'm sitting there and that the voice is in my head and that awareness to go you can't do this why are you doing this quit now you said you didn't mind what people would think if you quit and I can hear them and I'm just like oh there you are hello you've showed up again yeah and it is that moment where you just go okay you're there now I've got a choice here I can either choose to listen to you walk away slam my books down go and eat some chocolate because i feel bad about myself or i can choose to sit there and go okay i've noticed you to show up why are you here okay we've just hit a really hard point yeah you can't figure this out okay so what can you do to help so i message my brother what does this mean blah blah blah and i think that self-awareness and brenny brown's recognized it it's the number one thing now self awareness for the future fit if you're going to survive as a leader it has to be the number one thing you focus on is to be able to recognize why is that thought shown up why have you got those butterflies why have you got sweaty palms what's going on versus as you said just moving on to the next thing and ignoring it you just don't learn yeah anything yeah well what if you if we've got someone listening now and watching now going but my thoughts are just going crazy I don't know how to control them I am so busy and I'm full of fear and I'm full of worry and I think I don't know what's going to happen in my job and AI and my team.

26:32What is the process you do to reframe? So I am my own worst enemy a lot of the time. And I derive a lot of energy from being busy. And that comes back to never settling and just wanting to do more and more and go faster and faster. and um I will sometimes look at my diary and I'll be like WTF how am I actually going to ever do any work and it's back to back to back to back to back and I can do that for a while but it's not sustainable and it's not good so normally the first thing I'll do is sit with my PA I'll be like oh my god we've got to change this police me on not saying yes as much and let's block some time and the reason I say that is sometimes for me just having protected time is the best thing just for me to start to slow my own mind down and sometimes even to do that in an environment which I love and um one of the things I really love is travel and sort of holidays um and I think I have a really blessed fortunate life in that I travel heaps and that gives me so much energy but when it comes to holidays if you could take me anywhere where I can feel significantly insignificant in huge landscapes, so safaris, mountains, like just big, big space, the ability that that has to really slow my mind down and then to almost start to sort of recognize how does this make me a better person, a better leader and as a result of that how do I show up am I a better active listener am I asking more of the right questions versus here's a solution and it's more instructional and it's it is not easy to do when you're on that treadmill and it's just run run run run run but sometimes it's those counterintuitive things of do you know what slow down to then go sort of fast again.

29:12And it's something that Sophie Devonshire, the CEO of the Marketing Society, she's got a book. And yeah, and that is just, again, superb of how do you really slow down to go fast? And that will be one of the things that I'll do straight away. And that is about just remove myself, take that time, Like what's the worst that can happen? Yeah. And go back to who do I want to be? How do I want to show up? What problems am I solving? What do I need to do? And do you think that method is what's helped you in terms of this feeling of not feeling good enough? With the contradiction that we spoke about that you have taken some big leaps in your career.

30:05You've done some really courageous moments. and that real contradiction of not feeling enough, but hell yeah, I'm going to go for it. Has this sort of self-awareness and being able to step back been part of that or is there something else? Maybe an underlying something else, but I would also say sort of a part of that. When we were talking, it did make me think. I think when people have met me, they would be surprised perhaps at some of the things we're talking about. And maybe they say, oh, Ellie always seems kind of very confident or kind of sure. And I do wonder whether there is perhaps an underlying kind of courage.

30:53And maybe that does go back to being very, very young and perhaps having a fearlessness growing up as a kid and just sort of doing things that I most really shouldn't have been doing.

31:12And typically that was always, I would say, much more kind of physical things. And, you know, when you're on a farm, I mean, there's loads of machinery, a lot of open space. you can just go and try things that you know most probably wouldn't be available and so I think I've always had this kind of courage of well I'm going to try it and I think it's maybe the underlying courage that has overridden needing to have all of the confidence because that underlying courage of if I don't try how do I know I can't do and actually the more that you try something inevitably I'm not going to be perfect the best um but what what's the worst that can really sort of happen just a quick reminder if you haven't already to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel it's a small action that makes a big difference you'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you.

32:28I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. I like that. So yeah, the courage to go, even if you don't feel good enough inside, You're not sure, but it's that courage to act anyway, which is everything I stand for and has absolutely changed my life. But I know the incident you had when you chose to go to Formula E. Yeah. And there was this moment of, well, what will people think?

33:04You've come from Formula One and now you're going to Formula E. What was that worry in your mind? Yeah. I'm going to answer that. The other thing I was just going to say is once you take the courage to act, I then think it's about having loads of discipline.

33:31And I think I'm a really disciplined person in the sense of you try something once, it doesn't mean it's therefore going to be sort of easy. and it can still be quite sort of challenging and perhaps uncomfortable but it's a discipline to keep repeating and with time you then find that things will become easier or you're then able to kind of stretch into something else and so I think it's this kind of constant as soon as you feel comfortable in some respects that's the the most dangerous place to be yeah and so it's how do you keep perhaps pushing yourself or then saying I'd like to take on something else or actually I've thought about this um but it is this sort of constant discipline and coming back to what am I here to do how do I get better at that what questions I need to ask and that sort of level of curiosity just to build on that because you just took someone yesterday said to me oh Jo you're so disciplined um and what you've made me think about something else you spoke about is two traits that i think we don't talk about enough in leadership that makes such a difference is discipline and accountability yeah but just not accountability to others it's that self-discipline and that self-accountability that i know those two things have been part of why i know i will get this master's done or why i was able to set up a business it's because those two things were key yeah but I say I think they're very rarely spoken about where do you think accountability sort of comes from I think a lot of it was listening to you when you're growing up like in your household you needed to make the bed you needed to make sure things were done you needed to get the clothes out I think your environment of how you were brought up where you're brought up in an accountable environment can make a difference where you were accountable to others and you saw the impact if you were and you're not i think if you've got loads of free reign and no one cares or no one's holds you to account you don't learn it i do think there's a lot of it's quite a learned yeah skill probably based on what your human values are as well like in terms of how much you care yeah i do think accountability comes also when you care about something yeah you care about the people around you you want to do a good work you've got passion yeah because i think what they called it isn't it the quiet quiet quitters and things like that i think when you've lost interest yeah you're not that accountability is going to go down and i think self-accountability needs to be married with courage because the minute your courage starts to wane as i say the other day when that voice came in my head i could so easily have just gone and ate a cake outside and just be like i'm a victim i'm poor me poor me whereas it's that self-accountability to go no i've committed to this and i'll wrap it up by saying something that i heard my mentor say to me is are you interested or are you committed because if I'm just interested in doing a master's it ain't going to happen yeah if I'm committed to doing the master's and I can see I've already visualized yeah doing it really well and getting through it and doing it and loving it I can see I can see all the things I'm committed to that future version of me but if I'm only interested in it it'd be really easy for me to quit does that answer yeah it does because I would say with that discipline I take accountability for sort of everything and I think that comes back for me as well is recognizing that however difficult you think a situation might be I have a choice and I have absolute accountability for the choice I'm making and yes they have consequences but it's then for me to see that through and that that does really sort of tie into those choices I make and what am I really sort of passionate about and I think to your question around when Formula E presented itself as an opportunity I absolutely had that sort of voice in my head which is I'd done my Honda chapter I had my Virgin Media chapter, then sort of Formula One.

37:51And for me, that was like, OK, yeah, done motorsport. Then it was like Manchester United. OK, yeah, football, club level versus league level. And then sort of as I was looking at what comes after sort of Manchester United and the sort of Formula E opportunity was there, the voice in my head absolutely was, well, what will other people think? Well, they think I've gone backwards. And then that was a case of, again, you know, working through with my coach, like, no, just check yourself here. Does it matter what other people think? Or does it really matter that I am hugely passionate about motorsport?

38:37um this aligns absolutely in terms of my values um i'll be working for an incredible leader will allow me to be at my best and it's in this wonderful kind of scale of growth where that safe rebel can come out with a view to how do we just not accept the status quo and really sort of through my sort of area of specialism like marketing how do I set that up to be the engine for growth that can see this sport go to its next chapter through a sort of transformation that I can have a vision for um and working through then with Zill it was like like just shut that voice up I mean it's just absolutely ludicrous this is the only choice that I should be considering and what am I waiting for brilliant so just you're able to just calm that voice down take action did anyone question you no and it was interesting because when I started um talking to sort of people I respect I was like okay here are my options this is what I'm thinking and they're like but why are you even thinking that like this is the future it's evolution this is sort of everything that you sort of really represent which is just you're you're not one to kind of manage and maintain and to sort of settle for how things are why would you just not want to be in an environment where you as a person is perfectly aligned in terms of what the business and the organization is is there and wants to do glad you did take the decision because it's very cool yeah and i love it it's so good and it just shows you how important it is to do something that's right for you yeah not right for other people and just want to know with your team with this this kind of pace you've got the speed yeah hustle let's not take things as they are let's challenge how do your team keep up with you like right now i think it's fair to say that as we come to our last race of the season everyone is definitely feeling our battery charge is running low and we absolutely need that kind of recharge.

41:26And we need to really sort of protect and take that holiday and do that sort of recharge. and I think you know we will often talk about as a leadership team the importance of reflecting and of recharging so that we're ready to almost be in the ring again and to then be on that sort of front foot and sort of match fit I like that reflect, recharge get back in the ring yeah and so right now I mean you can tell coming back from Tokyo you know I got a chest infection and so for me this past week has just been knowing my body's now telling me okay just calm down um last race everyone definitely have a couple of weeks because it's going to be so important that when we come back together, we are almost doing that sort of reset, reminding ourselves this is where we're going, this is why we're doing it, and this is what we're going to kind of run after.

42:43And the importance, I think, in, I call ourselves the challenger brand, but I think the importance of being a challenger brand is about how we're constantly sort of reframing and questioning how to do things differently because inevitably your resources will be at a different level to perhaps someone or something that is way more established and again for me that positive reframe is well this is super exciting because that creative thinking the critical thinking the ability to move at speed and to be perhaps far more sort of agile and to take more calculated risks and perhaps others are I absolutely love but I think sometimes if you're just running on empty it's really hard to get into this is an exciting opportunity place versus oh gosh this is so hard because we've got these constraints and my fundamental belief is is that from constraint comes innovation and new ways of doing things um and so I have to check myself quite often because I think I'm a really resilient person and generally run with high optimism high energy and high accountability and I imagine that that can often be quite draining and exhausting for sort of others and we've all got lives and sort of different stories and things happening in our life and I need to constantly sort of remind myself that I've got things to manage in my life but my husband and I don't have children so actually a lot of my colleagues and my team members will have far more to sort of manage and to juggle than the things that I do as well it's a real self-check of energy respecting energy levels of team but also respecting what's going on in their world that might be different to yours totally as well 100 % and you know I will work you know you might work with new people and I will be the first to say this is who I am so I am a always on always contactable doesn't mean I expect the same from you my working rhythm I love working the mornings I'm pretty hopeless in the evenings so what you'll tend to see is um that I might work some unusual hours so it might be that I'm you know on my emails because I get up at 5 a.m and that's when I've just got my energy and my focus whereas you know when I get home in the evening I normally get home about eight o 'clock in the evening from the office and actually then all I want to do is to cook supper uh catch up with Will if we're both around at the same time um and go to bed like really relatively early like 10 o 'clock whereas I've got team members who are far more kind of nighthouse and that's cool I'm not expecting them to reply to me early in the morning and likewise I'm really happy for people to be working when it suits them but don't expect me to be replying at I don't know midnight 1am in the morning I'll be fast asleep but I'll pick it up in the morning it's just clarifying expectations which again is a huge gap I see it's just if people know what to expect and they have clarity they can they can work to their best now that went so quick but there's so many more questions I want to ask you is there anything before we wrap that you would like to share with the listeners and the watchers right now that we haven't covered.

46:53Jo, I think you've done a pretty amazing job. Thank you so much. That was a really lovely, just calm reflection of what it takes to be a safe rebel and how that safe rebel is fuelled with absolute courage. But that moment of taking that time to look after self, but also have a real appreciation of those around you as well yeah so thank you so much and thank you for everyone listening and watching and we'll see you soon if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact we fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you thank you for being part of the journey