How do you become one of 2025’s Best Places to Work? | Josh Harris

0:00Josh Harris:Nearly four years ago, I left my job with nowhere to go with a one-month-old in the middle of COVID. It was scary to leave a job with a mortgage, a newborn and a partner that was still recovering from childhood. Everybody in the leadership team at Neverland has never done the role they're doing now before. And I guess when you're not having to follow a set path, it's quite rewarding for people and it's motivating because it's then on you to get it right. What's been the unexpected for you now being CEO? There is a definite change. It's quite lonely. Self-awareness is probably really important.

0:37Josh Harris:And it's not just about doing what you think is right. Because as a company, you kind of have to have the company as a whole in the back of your mind when you make all these decisions. Hello and welcome back to the Courageous Leaders podcast. I'm your host, Joanna Howes, and today's guest is someone who leads with both heart and a creative edge. the CEO of Neverland London, Josh Harris. Josh has led teams across some of the best agencies in the UK, shaping iconic campaigns from British Airways to Amazon Prime. So let's dive in. Josh, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for giving us your time today.

1:11Josh Harris:And thanks for having me. It's good. As you know, we go straight into what's been a courageous moment for you. Probably nearly four years ago, I left my job with nowhere to go with a one month old in the middle of COVID. Well. It's probably the most courageous thing I've done, looking back on it. Possibly the most stupid thing I've done, but I don't regret it. So what came about needing to do that? When we were in a particular situation in the agency that I was working at, things weren't great, as they weren't for many people in COVID. There was just a relentless nature to the work ethic. And it just didn't feel like it was needed.

1:50Josh Harris:And I think when you're pushing people for no genuine reason other than to show that you're still working without it going anywhere just felt pointless genuinely like pointless um and I at the time had that obviously my son Vinny who was a year and my wife Kate was about to go back to work after mat leave and we just thought it was the the best time to let Kate fly straight back into work and I could do sort of I guess the parental leave that I really wanted to do through that first year and we could have you know a couple of months together being dad um which I loved it was like fantastic but it was it was scary to leave a job with a mortgage a newborn and a and a you know partner was still recovering from childbirth which is you know quite an experience yeah and yeah there's a good leap of faith that actually Kate was the biggest champion of because I think she could tell that I wasn't myself and wasn't the happy me that I'd always been at work because I love what I do and if you just stop feeling like that it makes a big difference and stops feeling like something that you love doing it stops feeling like work and at what point did you know it got to the point where you had to leave because I reckon there's a lot of people listening are kind of feeling this this doesn't feel right anymore this doesn't feel part of my values who I am but when do you think that point where you know it's gone too far this if actually if I stay this could become actually really unhealthy for me two moments the first was I mean we were all working at home as everybody was but even though I was working at home there was a 20 like a day where I didn't see my son he was in the house the whole time and I was just upstairs on calls I was a bit like this is awful and then it was a particularly stressful moment once and looking back on it now I know it was like a like a panic attack and I had a panic attack in my garden and you remember like like gorgeous summer where it was super hot and everyone was coming out of COVID and things were stabilizing a bit so the sort of like the zeitgeist was everybody was feeling positive and pumped and I was just in this really dark space and I think that was a yeah well I left within a week I think after that yeah and did the I'm just curious did you were you able to talk to the company to see if they could change things and give them feedback did you try and make those changes and it just went on deaf ears no there was there were two people in the company who I think went out of their way to help but I think by the time that I'd spoken to them it was it was too late and I was already sort of in my own head about stuff yeah um but without those two people you know I would of they gave me a way out basically and and sort of reassured me that it wasn't going to be difficult or I wasn't letting anybody down because you carry that with you as well as a yeah yeah they had a big team and I loved all of them we had a great time before COVID hit and it just it just got really difficult I think and you can't separate work and life especially when everyone's living at home working at home I mean it was a dark time for everybody wasn't it just curious because I'm similar but different situation I found myself in and I got to the point where I just had to leave it my health wasn't going to go and get any better I had to go I went through quite a bit of shame of why couldn't I handle this hang on other people seem to be handling this why couldn't I am I a failure and I started to do all that really negative sort of self self-talk did you go through any of that or did how did it affect you in your mindset a little bit I think my my wife obviously knows me better than I know myself and I think she was the one that said you're what's that what's going on and then you I don't know maybe as a growing up in the industry you're not necessarily encouraged to talk about your emotions um so you sort of just crack on and it was definitely helpful to talk to Kate and be really open and transparent with her um but yeah you you you you I doubt myself the whole time you know we've all got imposter syndrome you find yourself in these situations where everyone's looking for an answer or some direction or a thing you know a bit like god I don't know I don't know let's make a decision might not be right might be wrong but you you go with it but I think the more you're around the people who support you and are positive then it really helps so that environment getting yourself to the right environment so going through that change you know your dad at home which is obviously wonderful you and I'm guessing that was also really lovely healing process for you and after being in such a dark place to be with your son and that time to heal how did it feel then going I'm going to go back into the workplace where do I start how was that in terms of how you handled that those six months as I'm sure every parent can relate to when you when you send your kid to nursery it's like the bubonic plague hits every week and there's some disgusting virus that they bring home or spots and rashes and sickness and and you know explosive vomiting which I'm sure nobody wants to hear about but those that six months was take him into nursery on a Monday have to pick him up lunchtime on Wednesday and then because it was COVID you couldn't send them back in unless it had a negative PCA test so they'd then be off for 10 days and then the cycle started again so by the time I was ready to go back to work I was very ready to go back to work he was super settled in in nursery that sort of like all the illnesses had subsided we'd got through it together as a as a family because it meant that Kate didn't have to worry about it and I think as a mum sadly I think most mums feel the onus is on them to do a lot of the the child care um so it was great that we didn't have that concern and I could do a lot of it and then when I went when I went back yeah you're dipping your toe back in for the first time um but I wasn't torn I knew I had to get a job and I knew exactly what I wanted that job to be and the type of environment I wanted to be in because as awful as it was those last couple of months in that agency it crystallizes everything that you know you want going forward and I've worked at networks and I've worked at indies and I felt my best in the agencies that feel independent I mean the first one I worked at wasn't it was a network but it never felt like that and that was great and then you you sort of push yourself into into that world a little bit now i really like that and i think because i'm listening to you here remembering what i did in terms of then i interviewed so much better after that dark experience because as you say crystallizes and actually think you're not being interviewed so much you're interviewing the company as much to go is this the environment i want to be in and are you someone i want to work with versus sitting there going i've got to answer all my questions correctly you need to answer them back just as correctly for me the best people that I've had the pleasure of meeting on a hiring journey are the people who are just totally comfortable in themselves they're not trying to tick a box and answer a question they speak from the heart and they speak honesty and sometimes you don't necessarily like what you're hearing but that is also great because you need those people around you yeah completely so now you're sitting here as CEO.

9:09And I just think that's such a lovely story in terms of people listening now or watching that you needed to leave an environment, but that hasn't damaged or hurt your career. You were able to come back that you can have an episode in your career where it's not right. That doesn't mean you've lost everything. It's just you can rebuild and come back. And you've done that. And you'll see now CEO for nine months. What's been the unexpected for you now being CEO?

9:34Josh Harris:there is a definite change um it's quite lonely i've got a brilliant team that i work within and the two founders who own the business are still in the business and you know i kind of need them to be in the business because they're both doing critical things that the business needs but it is like a lonely sort of existence what's the lonely bit about it when does it get lonely I think it gets lonely when you're trying to push different elements. So that could be creative work. It could be people. It could be the business side of it, the commercial side of it. And sometimes you as a person who's running a business, you have to make decisions on the benefit of the business.

10:26Josh Harris:And sometimes that means that it doesn't work for everybody within the business. and I know that sounds counterintuitive but when you see the whole picture some decisions do sound or seem bizarre but you know there's always a real reason for making that decision like a great example was I mean there's no surprise if you read any industry article at the moment it's savage companies are making redundancies left right and center and when you're choosing not to do that because you're a people business and you are nothing without your people you have to make sacrifices on the commercial side to support the people who are in the business who give you everything to drive it forward I'm sure if there was a business owner looking at this thinking what this is a stupid thing to say how are you going to run a business like that it will pay back probably not this year but next year it will pay back in a big way because everybody knows that we're all in it together and that means a lot to people I think it does and it means a lot just hearing that because I remember I was an operations director for years and every at the end of every year I just sit there waiting knowing I was going to get that call to say you've got to clear anywhere between 250 and 400 ,000 of salaries and again it wasn't even even the word people was mentioned you just got to clear those salaries clear those costs and it happened every year and it was so so sad so to hear you say that you're doing it differently so I'm curious are you happy to share what sort of things are you doing differently to maybe inspire other people to go you don't the first thing doesn't need to be cutting people there might be other ways to look what are you doing that's different we we put a lot of focus on junior talent and i say talent because they they are some of the best people in our business are the are the the the youngest in terms of their career age they have an energy and a um like a they are pro activity they're doers they get up they move they listen they're inquisitive they want to know they want to learn and that is has always been the lifeblood of I think agencies is that is the young talent the the practitioners who are coming in to actually do the work um and they you know give the rest of us a lot of energy back can I challenge you a little bit yeah of course what do you say to the people that are saying that the younger generation coming through don't know what hard days work is they they're very nine to five it's all about their side hustles they can't get them to work as hard what do you so you're it sounds like you're not noticing that where do you why do you think it's different that you're not seeing that maybe the culture that we surround them with you know we're a small business so we're not you know a network agency we're 60 people so it's easy to know everybody on a personal level it's easy to understand what motivates everybody and it's easy to make sure that they've all got that motivation in front of them there is a shift i think definitely in i've been in advertising for 20 years the first five years of my career were very different to the first five years of people's careers now but i don't think that's a bad thing i think the learning curve that you go on when you start is important and surrounding yourself with as many people you can learn from is is critical you know the endless work from home debate is is probably quite a big obstacle everybody wants flexibility and we give everybody the flexibility they need but why wouldn't you want to be around those people who have done it for 10 15 20 years and you can learn from them like in in person do you think you've built that culture where people want to come in and they appreciate that learning being really honest yeah probably half the business think that they have to come in okay but the other half of the business i think genuinely choose to be in because it's a it's a good place it's a good culture you know talked about our company away day yesterday you see it in people they they genuinely enjoy hanging out with each other um probably later than they should have done but it's a nice familial experience that that people really really love i mean i might sound biased and a bit saccharine but i do i do feel that way yeah you know when you when you look out and you see the little conversations and the groups of people that you know and they see each other at the weekend you know you can see it on instagram and the stories that people have so it's must be doing something right just a quick reminder if you haven't already to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel it's a small action that makes a big difference you'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you i'd also love to hear from you So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments.

15:13And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call.

15:21Josh Harris:Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. So I want to try and unpack what some of that right bits is. So going back to in terms of a lot of companies, obviously, will let their people go first. They see the big cost. Let's go. where are you look what are the edges where are you looking differently in terms of saving money and the companies the company getting behind look we appreciate we can all sacrifice there if we can all stay together and stay in work what are your some of your strategies different um I'm going to use the word processes I'm sure one of my process some people in my business will roll their eyes but I think when you when you are independent and there's no you're unencumbered by red tape processes reporting to a higher body you can basically do what you want if something doesn't feel right you change it might not be perfect but you've got the freedom to be able to do that so all the all the leaders in the business if something doesn't feel right they just they change it and they optimize it and they change it until it until it works it's hard work you know it is hard work if it was easy anybody could do it but it it is rewarding for the people who are making things assets plans adverts creative you know we've got there's a young lady in our office who she does have a side hustle but she uses it she does our catering for us sometimes if we have big clients coming in for big meetings she'll do the catering in the morning because she absolutely loves it it's like a great like idea led yeah initiative that she just brings to the company yeah and there are pockets of that within business that we massively champion sounds like it's a lot of looking at that kind of one percent strategy i can't remember the psychologist who joined it was a cycling team and just looked at all those one percent improvements it's even something like that using your team and how you can work differently it doesn't need to be a big drastic thing but lots of little one percent tweaks and changes and giving some autonomy you can drive and keep up with pace and i like you use the word motivation a lot and it sounds like am i correct in saying that as a leadership team you are motivated to protect your people first versus seeing that as an easy way out so i'm guessing all the leaders are in on this to be like right where can we help where can we cut where can be more savvy where can we be more efficient so the last place we need to look is letting anyone go we're all new into our role everybody in the leadership team at neverland has never done the role they're doing now before and that is a blessing and a curse because then there's no preconceived way of doing things every leader in the business makes the role their own and I guess when you're not having to follow a set path it's quite rewarding for people and it's motivating because it's then on you to get it right and I think the motivation that runs through all of it we want to be a fantastic business where the people are as happy as the clients are and the work we're making is fantastic and that is there's nothing more complicated we work in a creative business we get to be creative all day long and we get to partner with clients that want to share that vision and help their businesses grow it's good to see that creativity is being perceived as a growth engine again because it wasn't for so long and I just like the way it doesn't need to be complicated but it is incredible so you've done networks I've done networks to how complicated a network can make it yeah and you know over is it bureaucratize and process everything that it becomes exhausting I've had I've had if I'm honest I've had the best of both so when I started in advertising I was at TBWA and I was on this team that was like it blew my mind I walked into work every day looking at all of these you know leaders of the of the business and they're all still in the industry now and they've all got phenomenal jobs and it was just like this is incredible I get to I mean I got to play playstation all day and I got to do stuff with adidas football and go on shoots and it was exciting and it was you know I met my wife there you know we were like a family and we still are you still speak to all of them pretty much and then I went to another network equally as brilliant as well and rainy kelly which is no longer it's merged into something else but that was incredible so I can see the networks that can get it right but they all have that sort of touch of independence about them they're not never I never felt like there was a something above where I worked dictating or yeah these gods giving decisions that you can't see you and Tim Lindsay and he was a brilliant CEO but I knew he made decisions on our behalf and he he sorted that for us and he had a great leadership team around him and it all and it all worked sounds like it's a lot of trust a lot of trust and and they but they put a lot of effort into the culture and yeah everyone worked hard and it was I mean we joked about it the other week you you sort of got in at seven and you didn't leave till 10 and then maybe you didn't go home and you went you know out out out um people don't necessarily want that these days they want different benefits and different um i guess perks is a good word for it and you just have to find and listen to what people want so we there's a lot of energy that goes into um we're quite a competitive business i would say so everybody in the business has this sort of ruthless competitive street within them so we do a lot of um like sports we have a sports day once a year and we'll we'll do every month ash who's our um operations manager she organizes i don't know we'll go and do a crossfit class and we'll do a um cycling class or boxing or rock climbing so it's quite it's quite good yeah not always to be let's all go to the pub and get really drunk because quite a lot of people don't want that anymore no it's not like I'm even trying to lick of alcohol myself it's much harder than I thought I'm trying um something that you shared with me in terms of what you believe has really helped you and become a CEO in your career as well is your emotional intelligence can you talk to me a bit more about that and how you lean into that yeah I don't have anything else I wasn't the smartest at school I think I scraped through GCSE and A-levels and even at my degree I got a fairly average I was lucky enough to go to university don't get me wrong but I don't think I um maximized my potential let's say but you you kind of know when you start in an agency and you're you know your work experience you kind of realize that knowing everybody is really important because at some point you're going to need a favor from I don't know Kieran in the edit suite you're going to need him to cut you a reel at nine o 'clock at night and if you don't know that person he's not going to help or you know one of the fab going back to TWA days that this this team of like phenomenal PAs that basically ran the business if you didn't know them and you didn't you weren't courteous and polite and kind and respectful they weren't going to help you so I just learned really early on that the only thing that I've really got is I kind of I can get on with people and I don't really think there's been much more to what I do than that embarrassingly everyone has this huge dose of imposter syndrome mine's the same I'm not going to sit here and quote Mark Ritz in a Byron Sharpe to you because I'm just not book smart like that yeah but I can feel when things aren't right and I can feel when things are right and you sort of go go with that probably painting myself to be a ridiculous human being that has no knowledge of anything but other than 20 years in the industry of of doing what we do no it's actually a joy to listen to you and it's interesting that you immediately went into if I flipped back into kind of then self-sabotage or that can't be enough and I think you know part of the reason I really invite I invited you on the show is you know you're in the campaign you know top places to work two years in a row and being a new CEO it really demonstrates how important having emotionally intelligent leaders are and this may sound a bit strange to say but is the new breed of leadership.

23:34That's what we need in the world today. And I think for you to then to be able to embrace that, to go, actually, that's a really confident thing that's needed. I think it'd be very empowering for you and the people, because I think any future leaders coming up to be led by you, led by someone who's emotionally intelligent, I think their career is going to fly. And hopefully we can start minimizing this imposter syndrome and really champion people who can feel, who can read a room, can connect with people, can empathize, can listen because ultimately we walk around as human beings with a billboard on our head saying please make me feel seen heard and that I matter and someone who's got a natural emotional intelligence will be doing that every day naturally I remember when we did we did our prequel you said how important it is that you know people and I challenged you saying okay well when you scale when do you think that would stop do you remember your answer I said it shouldn't I think

24:23Josh Harris:yeah yeah I don't think it should we're only 60 people it's very easy to know everybody like first name terms I probably know most people I'm not sure whether they'd want me to but I know most people's partners names and their kids names and their family status and whether they're about to get married or you know how far in their um pregnancy journey they are you can take that it's not hard it's not doesn't take a lot of work it's just being around people and listening I think that's a big thing for me is just listening so many so many people don't know how how to you know or don't care enough to yeah they wait it's not natural when you go to a meeting they're waiting to talk as opposed to listening to what's being said and that's going back to the ceo and being nine months in there's so many um opinions and points of view because you're not in the weeds of everything because you can't be and the team around you are so you have to very quickly listen to the most rounded point of view as you can and then together with the group make a decision to go forward but you have to really listen to what's being said and not listen to a particular departmental view or a individual's view on something you have to look at it in the round from a company perspective with your client hat on often to understand what the best thing for the creative work is and for the client that is basically paying you to tell their story.

25:54There'll be a lot of people listening to this where emotional intelligence doesn't come naturally to them. So I coach a lot of leaders who are like, Joe, help me out here. I think I'm listening, but I've been told I'm not. My team are saying I'm intimidating, but I don't see it. I do actually really care about my team, but they don't. And I know you say we're only 60 people. There's a lot of companies out there that are 40, 50 people. And maybe the person at the top doesn't know all their names or doesn't know as much as you do. anyone listening that finds it difficult to lean into that emotional intelligence what advice would you give how do you prioritize the time to do this how because i know it's natural for you so it's sometimes hard to share what's come so naturally to you but what do you think you're doing in that moment that that can help them realize that they could be doing during

26:36Josh Harris:their day yeah self-awareness is probably really important like if you don't know what your own strengths are you don't know what your own abilities are it's very easy to not be able to transfer those across to somebody else there was a there was a i know i joked about not reading books there was a fantastic book that i read there's a book on emotion intelligence by daniel goldman and it's a it's fantastic but it's like quite a self-reflective book i remember reading it and thinking god i don't do that maybe i should do that but it helps point out what your strengths are and then how you can use those to help influence other people positively um genuinely though listening is so important i've said it a couple of times but if you're not listening how are you ever going to hear what people are asking and it's not just about doing what you think is right because as a company you kind of have to have the company as a whole in in the back of your mind when you make all these decisions something that's coming to my word that just came to my head was control so myself included at times how ceos you get to lead there's a sense of you need to have control and to also stop yourself being exposed and stuff like got control everything how have you because to sit back and listen because a lot of people can't listen because they're needing to have control and you just said like it doesn't need to be your decision all the time or your thought you can listen to other people say do you think you've ever had a control thing how much how important is control to you people who have worked with me would probably say I'm a control freak okay because I think you I was all growing up I was just always wanted to be on top of my stuff i wanted to didn't want to disappoint anybody or let anybody down because i was have i had a particular you know chink in the in the chain that i was in that if i did it really well then i knew everybody else would be able to do theirs really well so as an account person your your job is basically supporting the the creatives with all the ammunition they could possibly need to make the the best decision they can so you kind of like you want to be all over the detail and you want to be across everything and then you'll encourage people to work with you so you're slightly more involved in their specialisms but that's no good if you're running a business with you know 20 plus clients and you haven't got the time to be in that detail so you have to trust the other people around you that they are doing their job to the very best of their ability which you know i'm lucky that it's definitely a incredibly strong contingent of very effective brilliant leaders in in the business that that know exactly how to get things done so they either push me back which is also fine um or they'll bring me in when when they need to bounce stuff around you know amy in particular we're like you kind of need like a partner in crime and i think we have this great relationship where if i ever say something that doesn't sound right she'll she'll pull me up on it and she'll be like josh that isn't that's not the right thing or you've misinterpreted this and you kind of need that it's like my my wife kate at home if ever i say something out of line she'll do the same and you you need those people around you otherwise you go crazy and make silly mistakes yeah it sounds like what is quite interesting listening to you is you don't have this need to be right which I think if you've got control and the need to be right it kind of equals quite a bit of disaster but it sounds like you're quite happy again like I like to have control it feels good but I can give it away and it sounds like the talent around you is really important that you've got trusted talent around you sounds like you've built psychological safety in your culture that you can be challenged as well but it doesn't feel like you need to be right all the time which I think maybe helps manage that like I said half the time I'm not really sure why I'm in the position that I'm in so you learn more from being wrong often than you do from being right you know all the brilliant lessons I've had through the career you often learn the most from the bad experiences you've had as much as that's awful to say it helps define what sort of leader and person you want to be but I think well I definitely don't want to do that or I don't want to be that sort of leader or I don't want to have that attitude and that sort of thing it forms who you are just as much as you know knowing what you want.

30:55I think it just sounds sounds brilliant and the thing that I'm curious about is you said you've got two founders still in the business. Yes. How does how's that dynamic? I'm asking from a place of speaking to lots of MDs or CEOs who are still working in a founder led business they're still quite hands-on and most of the time I hear it's actually very challenging because the founders won't let go or really give that autonomy and trust. How have you managed to

31:18Josh Harris:get a dynamic that's working for you it's difficult because it's their business it's their name above the door you know it's like peggy mitchell is like it's my pub so i think there's just this incredible level of trust that they put in me to put me in the position um and i couldn't do the job that i do without them you know at the moment john is the one of the founders john forsyth is playing a phenomenal role in the business as our as our creative lead and simon's got this this brilliant brand strategy pedigree and as a business they are two services that we we sell and they are the the best practitioners of that so getting them working within the business is is critical for the the business you know when clients when we pitch and they meet john and simon they those clients want john and simon part of their business because they're they're incredibly experienced really successful and very good at what they do so we found a way that you know they're kind of like siblings that bicker and argue but we're with there's no animosity it's sometimes you have a different opinion to somebody else and that's okay and you work it through and sometimes you'll go one way and it won't be right so you have to come back and go again there's lots of talking lots of talking um and and i get from them as lots of listening they're really good at it and i'm lucky i am lucky to have them in the business it's not traditional ceo role probably you know i'm not a ceo of a network agency that reports into a group ceo that reports into a global ceo it's not i mean i'm not that which i'm grateful for but i learn i learn a lot from them i like to think they learn from me as well um but it's it's it works and I'm under no illusion that it might not have worked and I think we all work really hard at the relationship to make it effective and I think that's the key thing the relationship takes work you can't just think it's just going to be there it takes effort like a marriage or anything it's that work's got to go in it just sounds also like egos are managed yeah and it's like you're on your own page you can manage your own egos and help manage each other's I think I think we all and with Amy and Lola and Theo and Tom and the rest of these everybody wants the same thing for the business so when everybody is motivated in the same direction the only things you're going to argue really about how you get there not the direction you're going in and that helps a lot and that was quite fun as when we spoke as well we were saying what with your leadership team obviously being quite new you know like how you've got the culture where you are you said oh yeah we're all aligned all on I said okay test yeah yeah go and ask all of them like what they think the direction of the company is what happened when you did that everyone everyone's motivation is the same yeah when you're in a leadership position it is difficult sometimes to forget the lane that you arrived in that position within so when I was head of client service I was I was in the leadership team but my discipline was you know account management and client service so You always have that hat on.

34:27So everyone's answer was the same ultimately,

34:31Josh Harris:but it came from the lanes that they're in. But we are all doing that thing. I mean, as the football unfolds on the TV, we're doing the thing where we're all playing for country, not club. And I think a leadership team really comes together when they've made that decision to do that, when the name on the front of the shirt is more important than the name on the back. and I think I see it all the time and people will fall back into you know I still do it occasionally and I'll need somebody to clip me around the ear and push me back in the right direction but it is an exciting time where everyone's we're going in the same direction together and you know you're a phone call away from somebody just to chat it through and talk into the evening if you need to just to make sure you've got something right.

35:17Were you nervous at all when you did the test that it might not be on the same page?

35:20Josh Harris:after I said what I said to you as well I was like oh god what if nobody says the same thing what if we're totally different everyone's doing but I think it's a good test to do it's like anyone listening watching it's like actually just go around the table and just check when you say actually what's our vision what's our mission what are our core values how are we living in just test that actually there is alignment because so many of the times people have made it mean something different or it's got a bit lost or unfortunately it's like Patrick Leosone works you become too much of a working group and everyone's too much in their lane and they they forget that there's other lanes in the business that they're only focused on theirs.

35:51So I love your thing of playing for country, not just for your club. I think it's so important. I really want people with that to land for people because I think it is interesting that you've got people in the leadership team doing new roles. And what's so exciting with that is you can shape it to be what you want it to be.

36:07Josh Harris:Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know where new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. I'm just curious before I go into the last question, you said that it was a blessing and a curse.

36:43What are the challenges though, that you're all new leaders?

36:46Josh Harris:That's a really good question. I think when you, there isn't a path to follow. I mean, I particularly found that I was promoted to be the CEO in a business that didn't have a CEO. And therefore, there was no prerequisite of what the CEO should do. So you spend a good chunk of your time working at the very beginning, working out where you need to spend your time and for me I was fortunate in that I arrived at that answer quite quick it was the work like the creative that's what we that's what we are in the business for is the creative so a lot of my time needs to go there our clients are really important to me personally very lucky to have a phenomenal group of clients who I hang out with as much socially as I do professionally i spend as much time with all of them as i do with my my wife um and then the the people within the business and then they're your three cornerstones and they've all got other bits around them that are attached and critical but when when you've got that clarity that's where you're going to spend your time it's easy but that's not the same for everybody because the new roles that we're we are making for people they have a they have a a new era feel about them so you know Amy is our chief creative production officer she is you know trailblazing new ways to do things tackling AI and bringing in new disciplines and bringing the the whole I say the team but I mean the agency's skill sets up to be able to be competent in those areas so the curse of it is is everything is new as much as that's a blessing I know that's a backward answer to your question but i hope it made sense so you just you're figuring out as you go along so you as well just lightly because you might make more mistakes but as we said earlier you're just going to keep learning and growing for those mistakes versus the fear of those mistakes holding you back yeah and there is a chance because it's all so new you won't know the mistakes you're about to make until you make them so you've actually got a bit more freedom to experiment i just read ann law's book tiny experiments and it sounds like your team have got that permission to experiment and have a go because as you said there's no previous history where people are trying to keep the status quo or saying well I've done this before or this is how it works but actually I think the world we're in now we need to be more experimental because I think the past isn't necessarily what is going to work for the future I couldn't agree more and I thought I would hope that everybody in the business yeah understands and feels that it's all about asking for forgiveness not permission and if you've got an idea that you want to do go and do it you know obviously everyone's got the jobs to do within the company as long as you do those you get all the freedom that you want to try new things if you think there's a better way of doing it go for it and i loved when we were talking before the interview you said that's pretty much your mantra and it has been from school in university yeah and it's quite interesting that if that comes through in your leadership that that is so embedded in you that it actually just naturally becomes part of your culture where people feel they can do it so i think a lot of people say that but they don't put it into practice but you've lived your life by that quite a lot haven't you i mean perhaps while i was at school i i probably should have asked for permission more than i more more than i did it's the worst somebody's going to say is is you were wrong to do that and you shouldn't do it again but at least you know and you've understood if there's a benefit in doing it yeah versus the slightly risk averse nature of people who are who are having to grant you permission for stuff more often than not if it's something new they'll say no because there's no money for it or there's no time for it or they don't know how it's to be done it's very easy to say no everyone always jokes about account people being like yes people it's very easy to say it's not it's actually it's really easy to say no to stuff yeah the difficult thing is when as a leader is saying yes to the things that are going to massively help people and then that for me is courageous leadership especially saying yes when it's never been done before yeah let's give it a go um so I'd love to know if you imagined your future self what would your future self what advice would they give you today they'd probably say slow down I think I was always I see it in a lot of the guys at the at the office the team everyone's hungry for what's next and what's coming and they want to be promoted and they want this level they want that level looking back now I've been doing what I do for I mean I think it's 18 years most of the stuff that I learned in year one I still do now you never let go of that like it you're always going to be the account executive like even as a CEO of a 60 person business on pitch day I'll still be the one doing the tech to make the tech work because you yeah and Hoover I like Hoover on pitch day yeah I cleaned a clean house says a lot I think I think it says a lot but to slow down and with that advice do you think that's something you could actually implement I think we do a really good job of helping people understand what their jobs are so I think everybody in the business has a has a job description and everybody knows that when they are already doing the job description of the one that's next in line that's the right time for them to be stepping into that role not when they've mastered the role that they're in I think there's been two occasions really nice two occasions on my career where I pushed to get promoted there's nothing worse than than getting promoted because you feel like you've asked for it as opposed to deserving it but I was in one in particular I was caught I was caught out and it was you know knocked me back I'd say six months confidence gets knocked you question everything you are slower when you should have been faster and you just you looking back going slower in those moments probably would have been better for me I think and I just like that just to let you know when I speak to teams and one thing they all ask for is more clarity especially clarity in roles and job descriptions so the fact that you've got that in place and people are very very clear what they need to do to get to the next role um I think anyone listening please take that on board because so many people just don't have the clarity they need for how they can progress yeah and the other the other thing I don't think I really understood when I was um more more junior was that those titles that everybody covets whilst they are an incredible pride badge to wear you know on your on your email or on your you know linkedin or whatever that is also the agency's way of protecting you from certain things it's not oh you're you're junior and therefore you're only an account manager it's like as an account manager there are things that you shouldn't be exposed to or behaviors that you haven't necessarily built up enough thick skin for want of a better word to have to deal with and I think as you go through a business the more senior you are you also you get a lot of shit really and I think it's the experience that builds you up over the years that allows you to handle those those moments better yeah that's a really lovely reframe to look at it is a to protect you to help you grow that's lovely is there anything we've missed anything you'd like to reinforce or share before we close no I'm grateful for being invited on um because it's nice that alongside all the phenomenal leaders that you've had on this business you're you're happy to speak to somebody who's sort of finding their feet in their in their role as they go um but no I've really enjoyed it thank you no thank you for coming on I said I reached out the minute I saw you had the the award because I think leading with emotional intelligence is the future so the more leaders that can grasp that, embrace that, not feel it's a, oh, that's all I've got.

44:26Because it really is, I really hope from this that you see how valuable it is, that natural ability or natural superpower of emotional intelligence, because it is the future. So thank you for coming on. And thank you to everyone listening. And thank you for watching. And we'll see you next week.

44:41Josh Harris:If you've been enjoying the Courageous Leaders podcast, we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our YouTube channel. Your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and and make a real impact. We fund this podcast ourselves, so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you. Thank you for being part of the journey.