How Narcissistic Traits Show Up in Leaders (And Why It Matters) - Kathleen Saxton

33:10And I appreciate defamation and confidentiality and all of those things. But I think we're coming to a space in our world, certainly with the fact of Freedom Information Act and various things. This is why a lot of these things are coming to light with Epstein, for example, right now. The truth is starting to come out. And I think this is brilliant and wonderful. And I encourage it because it makes us also check ourselves. You know, if everything we were doing was being recorded, would we behave in that way? How do we behave behind closed doors? We talk a lot about in the book, I talk about personality and personality and business can win a lot of hearts and minds.

33:46But character is what I'm really interested in. What are your values? What do you really believe in? Where's your integrity? What are you not prepared to put up with in the way that I wasn't prepared to put up with it in my last role? And I went and sought them to say, let me go because this is not OK. I think the more that we can do that, the more that businesses, families, partners will begin to understand we do have a choice and we're willing to act on that choice. But a coup, I think, is the strongest way of doing it. I agree. My brain's going because I'm going back to when I experienced it, when I was on the exec team.

34:22And I think there was about seven of us. And there was definitely one, potentially two very strong narcissists on that exec. And unfortunately, it happened to be a woman. I haven't had much luck in my career when it comes to women. Shame. No, it's not worked out for us. It's a lovely female friends, but I've not had very good female bosses. And I'm trying to sit there and picture myself, even having the courage at that point to, as the individual, to even suggest a coup or even to go to another person to say, would you come in this with me? Because the psychological safety in that whole room didn't exist at all.

34:59and it was almost it would have been a big risk to even suggest a coup absolutely and I'm wondering if at that point sometimes I just had to make the choice to leave well I think this is let's take it in two forms in some way I'm sorry about your experience of women leaders I've had some great ones so maybe I can lend you some but um so psychological safety again I think got relegated delegated to HR and HR did a great job with it, but it should be the business of the chief executive of any organisation, male or female, because when we are psychologically safe, we're much braver about making big decisions, good decisions, entrepreneurial decisions, pushing a business forward.

35:41And when we're not safe, we don't. We retract, we retrench, and we go back to what's safe enough, which is often mediocrity in some form. As a leader, we have a duty of care to our people. And so it kind of galls me when psychological safety is regarded as a sort of a flim flam, kind of nice, loosey goosey, nice thing to have. For me, it's a fundamental, we have a duty of care to create it. Because when we do create that, then people are willing to come forward and say, I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, or this isn't okay for me. but of course in the workplace our salary is dependent on it so we can't just up and leave because we've got a mortgage to pay or school fees or whatever we've got to do in a relationship certainly in my experience I had to give up on being with someone I had to accept that I might be alone the rest of my life you know that I'd have to give up on this idea that I'd grow old with someone devastating and in a family if it's a parent to give up on your parents to potentially be ostracised by your family for speaking up.

36:42This is the price that we feel we have to pay, which is why the collective makes it a little bit easier. So back to your question, I think that we have to test for psychological safety. We have to test for others that might be feeling exactly as we do, but have been too scared to speak up. And can we ready the ground? Can we find enough people that will quietly say, if you do, then maybe I'll come with you too. This is why the preparation is really, really important. And there's obviously steps that we can do with that. And I talk about that a lot in the book. But if we really find that there are others saying, I really understand how you feel, but I just cannot come with you on that journey.

37:23Then at that point, we have a decision to make, which is what is the likelihood of me getting out of this unscathed by trying to stay? Or do I actually have to decide? I've got to quit. I've got to save myself rather than allow myself to be chipped away and diminished until there's nothing much left of me or my professional reputation is in ruins. We've got to really make a decision about that. I know for me professionally, my reputation would have come under scrutiny at some point. And so I cut the cord before that was allowed to happen. That was more important to me than a salary or the public persona.

37:57What was more important to me was my integrity and my reputation because it had taken me 30 years to build it and I wasn't going to have some old dude in America wreck that for me. Absolutely no way. And then I think I was the opposite to you. Mine was my health was going. I literally lost all the confidence, panic attacks. I'd have to have this song that I'd have to play in my ears just to be able to walk through that door. So I think it got to the point and I think I lasted eight months and I should have gone sooner. So anyone listening to this is like you don't i kept convincing myself i can fix it i can sort it i'll become friends with them i'll find a way they i've been liked by other people i'll find a way to get the but that energy i put into that i was slowly destroying myself and and i share this because i just know so many people are going through it it did take me a good 18 months to recover of course you said that ripple effect it really does have and to get that confidence about that self-esteem and all the things because you're the one initially feels like the failure why couldn't i make it work of course what was wrong with me else feels like they're over here in this gang and this group that are coping so well often they're not but they're masquerading but of course it affects our central nervous system as you've described it's not just what goes on in here it's in our heart it's in our somatic system we have lots of you know complex ptsd you know which sounds very major but these are when we've had lots of little incidents that we've coped with we've tried to find a way and work around.

39:21They've all had an impact on us. And I have people in my clinic now who are very, very successful chief executives. I work with boards, I mediate with boards. And off the record, people will talk about what it's costing them in so many different ways, because it casts a long shadow. You know, when I interviewed people for the book, there was a lovely woman that was, you know, three or four years out of a situation. But even as she began to tell me the story of what had happened to her, the tears came because it was right here still and so this is the point we can leave a job a person a family but the the effect is still there we've got to process and work through what it's done to us and then right side ourself back to a different place and we can but there's something about admitting it's difficult and there's one other little bit in here joe which is important which is i think you and i have some similarities around we're quite hopeful people and we're quite resourceful people.

40:15And you believe you're resilient. Absolutely. And when you're dealing with someone, particularly narcissism, Machiavellianism, people that are difficult, our view is, well, I'll try harder. I'll find a different way. I'll come up with a different strategy because we're hopeful that most things are fixable, workable. And it's a lovely way to live our lives for sure. But when you're working with someone like this, there is not a way out. There are ways to cope for a while, but there's no way out. And so accepting and giving up, letting go, as we said at the start, is actually a fantastic strategy.

40:52But it was an anathema to me when I first hit that bump in the road because my view was, no, no, I'm going to find a way. And that nearly killed me. It's hard, isn't it? It is. Because I don't know about you. I felt a lot of shame. There was so much shame that I couldn't make this work. and then I was like oh my gosh am I am I not as good as I thought I was at my job is it me and telling people because I'd moved to the other side of the world had this big leaving party and all of this it's like yeah it hasn't worked out I'm coming home and all the shame where does shame sit around the people that are experiencing this I think shame sits at the very heart of it and in a therapeutic sense shame is very difficult for us to work with to sort of budget and nudge it it's quite difficult whereas anger and sadness and other things we can work with quite well particularly anger.

41:39Anger is very good actually in therapy. But shame is difficult because it's a very quiet or pervasive feeling. And its very nature means that we don't feel that we can or that we want to talk about how we're really feeling for fear of greater judgment. And often some of these disordered people are very good at doing this to us behind closed doors. So other people say they seem incredibly charming and charismatic and successful and wonderful. How lucky are you to work for them or be dating them or to have them as your mum or your dad. But we know when the front door shuts or their office door shuts, that actually what we're dealing with is someone of a whole different nature.

42:18But we know that other people haven't experienced it. And when we try and explain it to them, that kind of quizzical look comes across their face. And immediately we feel isolated and we feel ashamed because we're reading that they must think there must be something going on with us that means that this is happening. And of course, the individual, in this case, the narcissist, is telling us that it's us that's the problem. And so this whole narrative starts to set into our system. And that's why sometimes staying is the worst thing that we can do. Yeah. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel.

42:56It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. Because it's like a little thing that I always had growing up is I've got to prove myself. And I was like, do you know what?

43:28I've got nothing to prove anymore. Yeah, There's nothing to prove. And that inner self-trust to go, I don't, and you say time. I can't give my time anymore to this. No. It's time for me to take back my time, my empowerment, and just leave with my head held high, even though I was crushed inside, but knowing for me, I had to save myself. But Jo, think about all the energy that you put into trying to make it work and coping and staying, et cetera. and look at now the energy you've put into what you've done since. That's the beauty and the evidence of making the right decision is what happens when you let go of these dreadful situations and or people.

44:10Funnily enough, we flourish. And I would not be sitting here talking to you now if that situation hadn't happened. I'd probably still be in advertising. I wouldn't have my own business. It was because of that moment where everything changed in my life. So yeah, circling back, creating space to allow something new to come in. And even though it's, say, the pain, the cost, the shame, that courage to trust something else will arrive. It will arrive. Something always comes. Love that. Love that. So Sly Mighty is coming out. Can I just, I'm just curious though, why Sly Mighty? What was in that title?

44:46So to me, obviously the famous term high and mighty, which is, you know, when someone's a bit high and mighty, We don't like this about them. And my view was when we're dealing with these disordered personalities, because they can present as something so wonderful, there is a slyness in that. There is something about this behind closed doors. And my lived experience with a narcissist was how they were at home versus how they were in the public domain was like two completely different people. And I would watch the switch. I'd watch them literally switch in front of my eyes. And I felt the slyness of that.

45:23I would notice how they would treat me so loved beautifully, you know, in front of other people, even at a dinner or something, they would hold my hand in front of friends and family. And at home, they would not even speak to me for three days, you know, and then click straight back into this gorgeous partner. And to me, there was a slyness. But in the business sense, my view is these people are CEOs, they are they are leaders, they are very mighty in the world that they operate within. So the sly and mighty just felt like they lived together you know I've got no issues with people that are in power I think might is a wonderful thing used well but the sly and the mighty was the issue that I had and therefore my view was in writing this book and giving lots of advice at the end of it and therapeutic insight into what's really going on how can we get mighty with the sly that is all about why I wrote this book is yes the first third a bit like peacock is all the devastation of what this is the middle third is how does it look in lots of different organisations and businesses?

46:21I've used lots of different industries, but the final third is okay then. So if we accept this is really true and it's happening, what are we going to do about it? Because we all have agency to do something about it, whether we are in governance, whether we are a bystander, whether it's happening to us. And even if we are the actual person who's toxic, you know, I'm doing a talk to someone in a couple of weeks and I'm going to call out the audience as an audience of leaders to say 20 % of you in that room will be narcissistic you know 4 % of you have got psychopathic tendencies what are you going to do about it because your legacy will be a legacy of harm unless you do something about it so well this is the question they might not and if they don't there's nothing we can do but if someone's got traits and maybe some personality but they're not disordered there is an opportunity for them to do something with it.

47:13If they're disordered, much, much harder to reach. We would say at the moment we have no medical or therapeutic evidence that a narcissist can be cured. But if someone's got a personality or they've got traits, we can do something with that. Have you come across a narcissist who's asked if they can be cured? Has that even happened? Interestingly, Professor Sam Vaknin, who I mentioned before, who's one of the greatest academics in this space, is a diagnosed narcissist. So it's very unusual to have someone who's that conscious of their condition and he's very accepting of what it is and how it operates even within him.

47:46So I think people can be aware if their ego is strong enough to hold the truth. But most narcissists or psychopaths or Machiavellianism, their ego is so shattered that they can't hold, that truth would be far too wounding and devastating for them because they already think so little really of themselves behind this mask. But if they've managed to just about recover some level of ego they can hold the truth that they have a condition just about but that's quite rare. I think that's what's a fascinating thing is they think so little of themselves because you wouldn't think that would you? No and this is why our misunderstanding about narcissism needs to be challenged because in the DSM-5 which is the book we use to diagnose people of all sorts of different disorders at the moment narcissism the number one trait says grandiosity.

48:33I think we completely missed the picture and the point here because actually grandiose narcissists are really easy to spot and almost funny because they're so ridiculous in many ways. They suck all the oxygen out the room and bombastic and show off. The coverts are the ones that do it via sympathy, via victimhood. Often they're quite intellectual, they're quite contained. We feel ourselves drawn towards them because of this and that's how they get their narcissistic supply. They don't need a big audience, but they need someone who's worrying about them, caring about them, giving them accolades for everything they've sacrificed.

49:08They're the tricky ones. Wow. I had someone say to me that we wouldn't have the successful businesses in the world if we didn't have people leading who were narcissists, because they're the only ones that can be ruthless, do business, do the deals we need, and our economy would be a mess without them. What do you say to that? There's truth in that, Jo, I'm afraid to say. So if we think about some of the behaviours, you know, some level of confidence, some level of drive, some level of self-belief, some level of risk-taking. We often look when we're headhunting for or hiring for these leaders to have some of those traits.

49:43We need them often to lead a business. And when we've looked at even female narcissists, they are much more likely to be good leaders as well. So there's some data in here that's uncomfortable, but it's true. The difficulty is when it becomes completely self-serving rather than at service to the business and the people that they're leading. And so this is the difference. This comes back to object. Do we see people as objects or do we see them as people? So yeah, a lot of the traits we would actively put in a job description. But we've really got to do our research on the longitude sort of study on how has this person performed in business and what is it people would say about working for them and with them.

50:28You know, would you invite them to a dinner party? Who would you sit them next to? There's other questions. Would you trust them with your secrets? Would you trust them with your kids, with your secrets, with your salary? You know, what would they do under harsh conditions? What do they do behind closed doors? What do they do under pressure? What is the character of this person? So they might have performance traits. That's fine. But where does their character sit in this? That's the question. Especially under pressure. Always under pressure. Because I likey stuff comes out under pressure. And that's kind of harder to hide, isn't it?

50:55Of course. Do you notice any difference in narcissism within women and men? Yes, we do. So for narcissistic women, they will often utilise the sort of classic feminine traits. So they will use their softness. They will use their sort of humanistic skills, if you like, to connect with someone in some form and then find that someone softens towards them and then somehow they can strike. Oh, it's like a snake. I know. with male narcissists can be a lot more direct can be a lot more sharp can be a lot more attacking in the way that they will insist on you doing something so the female narcissist might try and persuade you the male narcissist may insist that you do something so there's a different way of oscillating and how a female narcissist works with a male versus a female will be different and how a male narcissist likewise so the genders here are quite interesting to study And again, there have been some studies done specifically on female narcissistic leaders to understand how that operates.

51:57And so given we're working in a world of gender equality, we're rightly so pushing for women to have equal rights in leadership. We're beginning to see female leaders actually come to the fore that have narcissistic traits. And in the past, all the research said that narcissism was about 75 percent men, 25 percent women. Absolute nonsense. It is 50-50. it's just that we were misdiagnosing female narcissists as having borderline personality disorder when actually there were narcissists all along this is so fascinating we have a lot to learn so much to learn but i think this is so important that we are educated here to understand it more it's the best form of defense and progress that we can make is to study certainly personally for my personal experience my education saved me because it helped me understand what the hell was going on and I think in business now I'm here to try and help people understand what is it and what isn't it as well and if we're educated and we're conscious as we'd say in therapy once we're conscious of anything we've got a chance to change it when we're unconscious of it we are literally left to the wild of it and that's quite dangerous.

53:06We go into survival mode and then that's not something's just flipped in my head I get all these crazy things in my head sometimes just thinking so if I'm a leader and I notice someone in my team is starting to show narcissistic traits they're not a leader yet they're working their way up what can I and maybe I can start to see they're causing a little bit of disruption in the team and there's some disconnect what can I do as a leader to either help guide that person or manage that what's in my control so if you genuinely think you're seeing narcissistic traits you have to understand that feedback to a narcissist will only ever be heard as criticism and as attack.

53:42So you've got to think really carefully about how you give that. So if you give them what we call direct on feedback, it's going to go horribly wrong. You'll be put on their list of people that they're going to come after potentially. Sit alongside them. If we sit alongside someone that's a narcissist and offer them some level of, I wonder if you would do better, find it easier, get along more find a promotion better if you were to think about adopting a slightly different way of behaving someone's got traits they might be able to assimilate that into the way that they work there's an assimilation that will be allowed but if you directly say if you carry on doing this is going to be a problem they're going to already put you on their on their foe list which you don't want so sitting alongside is your best opportunity and it's selling them the positivity of what it might allow them to do if they were to consider adopting these traits.

54:33So it's a carrot, not a stick. Absolutely. But of course, we risk within that them becoming performative in that space rather than actually believing it. So we've got to keep a real watchful brief on that individual if we think that's what we're seeing. Of course, we can offer them coaching. But I would suggest you found a coach that's also a psychotherapist. There's quite a few of us now that are qualified in both. And I think that span is very good for someone like this, because the chances are if they've got some personality disordered behaviours, something's gone on in the past. Most disorders, some are genetic, but some are really coming out of a very traumatic, difficult early childhood.

55:09And therefore, someone who's therapeutically trained might be able to help see if there's something here that can be healed, that might help them moving forward. Got it, because actually it can take quite a lot of courage from a leader to have someone who's narcissistic in the team to lean in to dealing with it because it can be easy to just let it ride because they are incredibly clever yeah they're clever they're performing they're bringing the money in there and they don't care you're the big client they don't care who the boss is they know that they're powerful in that organization that's how they've shored up their existence in it but this is where the challenge comes in sly and mighty is how much of that behavior are you going to tolerate as the leader where is your duty of care to all the other people in the organization and do you think it's a big enough thing at the moment where this needs to be some sort of standardized leadership training or education to have that awareness because of the disruption it can cause?

56:04Do you think, you know, leaders go and have sales training, they have marketing training, they have negotiation training. Do you think this needs to be, there needs to be some standard behavioral training and understanding different personality types to be a leader? Yes, but I might go at it the other way up and I'm biased because I'm a psychotherapist, But my view is that anybody that's in a leadership position that has a duty of care to look after others. To me, the company should be offering rather than just away days and training courses and workshops, they should be considering some level of individual psychotherapeutic running mate, wing woman, whatever you want to call it.

56:39I think it's important that you've got someone running alongside you when you are in a leadership role that can sit with you in your difficult behaviours because we all we all have them in our own way. certain things will trigger us up under pressure. So to me, that would be a much smarter move. And a really good example of that would be I work a lot with private equity that are buying businesses, and I often work with boards psychologically. When a private equity firm buys a business for millions of pounds, they don't spend any money in the main on working with the founders of the business that they're buying and the private equity people that are going to run it.

57:12That relationship and those individuals are critical to whether that business and that acquisition succeeds or fails. Why are we not doing any work on the psychology of what's going on for all people in the expectations of the buyer, the lifestyle of the seller is their baby after all, this is their investment. There's all sorts of places where psychotherapy would be incredibly powerful and no more so than when we're thinking about if we're leading even two people, we have a duty of care. What's going on in us? What's going on in them to help us make sure it works? Especially where the workplace is now, we've got five different generations, all with very different outbringings.

57:55There's such a new level of understanding human behavior that I think we've ever come across. Yeah. And expectation. Expectation is completely different. Yeah. Stuff that I get expected to know now, I never expected from my leader before. So it's being willing that the world has changed and we need to catch up with that change and how we look after people. Of course and I think the piece in there that's most critical is what I always say is know thyself. How well do you know yourself really in the great days and the really difficult days? What's the span of your behaviour? Because when you really know that, that's the real foundation of how can I begin to grow and improve and stretch and better the way that I am around other people.

58:38And so if we don't really know who we are, we're kind of operating in the shadows to some degree. We're operating in the dark. So know thyself is the number one thing I would say to anyone that's in a leadership position. And why wouldn't you want to know? Well, some people don't because they're a bit scared of what they might find. But my view is some of those little bits that we find that aren't quite so attractive are the places that we can heal the most. I have shadows. I have a shadow. And it is actually interesting. It is when you look into that shadow. It's not too scary to look, but I do really need to get to know why you're there and who you are and how you show up.

59:14Definitely. Before we close, I'd really like to know you have for someone actually is going through this at the moment and it's got a toxic boss, narcissistic boss. What are your five tips that you can help them with? So there's three and two I'm going to give you. So when we're thinking about what we're going to do in the book, I've talked about there's three different strategies. is to stay, to play or to slay. Now, if you're going to stay, how do you stay on your conditions? Can you take stock of where you really are, what's really happening with your blinkers off? And if I choose to stay for the money, for the role, for the accolade, for the security, for my workmates, for my ego, whatever it may be, can I come to terms with a deal that I'm doing with myself, which is I'm going to stay, but I'm only going to stay for a set period of time, to the next earnings call, to the next stock cliff, to the next pay rise.

1:00:12And I'm going to start looking right now. I'm going to start building my tunnel out. So I'm staying under very fixed conditions for me. Once we've come to terms with those conditions, we already feel different. Sometimes people I work with, either in coaching or whether in psychotherapy, they might agree they're going to leave in a year's time. Now they've got to travel that year, but they know that they're coming out. They already feel differently the next day at work. Playing is different. Playing is I'm going to play this system. I see what I'm dealing with. I'm not sure I'm going to change what I'm dealing with, but I'm going to do everything I can to play this to the best of my abilities.

1:00:51I'm going to start building other factions for myself. I'm going to start utilising what I understand about this toxic leader to get what I want from them rather than them making me suffer them. I'm going to go and study what I think is going on with them. So I actually get a grip of it and their behavior is therefore predictable rather than surprising. And I'm going to basically play them at their own game. Now, again, you might not stay forever, but you might decide to play this game for a period of time that really suits you. You also might decide I'm going to try and get myself cross transferred within the company.

1:01:22So I'm going to get myself away from them. So I'm going to play the system of global mobility or whatever it may be in the organisation, but it's a conscious decision and you are planning it. And the final is to slay. I'm not condoning anybody harming anyone, but to slay is where the coup comes in. Maybe this boss needs to go. How are we going to find a way as a collective to begin to start the engines for figuring out how do we bring this to the attention of people that do matter, that do care, that have got some power, that can either amend this behaviour or decide this individual needs to go and that's where we start thinking about investors boards non-execs etc who else has got a duty of care has got a governance eye on this that says we knew you know in the research of the book i think of the leaders like um some of the famous people that have gone to to prison for various things 84 of the time there were early warning signs for years the system knew they knew and they didn't do anything about it they colluded with it so we can utilise all of that and the idea of slay so if this boss has got to go in some form start planning how are you going to do it and who is going to be in that collective do not go alone this is not heroic or indeed a courageous act for an individual in this it's a courageous act for the collective so start thinking about the slay so they'll be the first three things you've got to do the fourth thing is to say you are not your job and you are not your relationship and you are not your family, whatever's going on for you, you are you.

1:02:57Try and tune back into what is it you think you were meant to do? What did you really want to be when you were little? How's your path strayed off that in some form? You've got to really think about to thine own self be true, because often we find that we may be doing something that actually we've fallen out of love with anyway. And this is all part of the story. But we can't yet imagine what that new path looks like? Well, can we give ourselves the time and space to begin to imagine? Go and talk to people that do the thing you've always wanted to do. Go and find out whether you could retrain to be something else altogether.

1:03:32We're going to live to 90, 100 maybe. So we might retire from our day job at 50, 55. What are you going to do? Loads of time. What are you going to do? You know, I always say the same thing. We can't all be non-execs and we can't all open a bed and breakfast in Cornwall. what are you going to do instead? And the fifth thing I always talk about is really thinking about what's your legacy going to be at this point? What is it you truly want to leave in your sort of fingerprints on the world? Because although that sounds very romantic, there is something about our belief set of knowing that when we do get old and tired, did we get to do the thing that we've always promised ourselves we wanted to do in some form.

1:04:16And a little personal vignette of that will be, some of you will know, I've started doing a little bit of live television recently and it came as a surprise and all of those things. But a couple of my very close friends said to me, you've been preparing to do this your entire life. When you're in your late teens, your early 20s, you always said, I would like to do something medical or clinical and I'd like to do it to many people and here it is. So in the space that I left something emerged that I couldn't have made happen on my own it came on its own right but there's something about this fourth point of what is it I always wanted to do and then allowing the space for an opportunity to come and you better be ready for it when it comes because it will come.

1:05:02It's been waiting isn't it just waiting and can you grab that opportunity you can't if you're holding on too tightly to something that's hurting you. You have to let go. So your hands are free and they're open to take opportunity that's coming. That's beautiful. And that just summed up courage for me. That courage to open your hands and then allow something new to come in. That's beautiful. Thank you. I really don't want this interview to end. There's so many, we'll have to get you back for part two. It's Lion Mighty's release and we'd love to get you back on. But I'd love to know right now, for you personally, what would um your future self now all that you know you've had so much change already but the future self what advice would they give you today believe it's going to happen and give it everything you've got I sense within myself at the moment that a huge number of things are about to happen many things have in the last year more than I could ever have imagined my whole visceral system is telling me that something huge is about to happen.

1:06:02And so my future self says, be ready and go with it and give it all the welly in the world. That's so lovely. And I really hope it does because I just want to play back to you. It's like, I just came to your book launch. You didn't know who I was from Adam, but you have this wonderful gift of allowing people to feel seen. You know, you gave me your time to have a coffee when I know your world is exploding with opportunities right now. So there is, I just want to thank you for your generosity. and the work you're doing and the help you're giving because the ripple effect you're having is fantastic and that's off the bat well your work anyway one book let alone two and then I know you've got a third coming out as well so anything we can do to keep supporting your journey and championing you and if there's anyone listening now that does want to get in touch or seek some help with what they're going through what's the best way for them to do that best way is psychedventures.com which is my website you can contact me directly on there my assistant also can come back to you so whether it's clinical whether it's corporate work whether it's head hunting whether it's speaking any of those things therapeutic work even just a coffee to say can you direct me can you guide me of course always I will always help as many people as I can I just want to thank you so much um everything you coming today and thank you to everyone listening and for those that watching and we'll see you next week if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact.

1:07:30We fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you. Thank you for being part of the journey.