How To Be Successful At Work & Be A Great Dad

18:43Dr. Anna Machin:Yeah, and come in. Because they recognize that. But nobody recognizes it in men. And I think the other thing that we have to be aware of is the huge guilt men carry, particularly if they only get the two weeks or, you know, if they're, you know, even less than that, if they're self-employed on a self-employed contract, they're a consultant. And they go back to work and maybe their partner's had a really difficult birth, maybe the partner's still ill, maybe the baby's still ill, and they literally have to hand the baby to their partner after two weeks, which is when we both know as parents, you are literally still in the trenches.

19:10Dr. Anna Machin:so in the trenches and just go back to work and that is huge huge the men I talk to have huge guilt and then the problem with that is this risk then of them suffering poor mental health you know we know that 10 % of men have perinatal depression I had no idea yeah so the rate in women is about 14 % so men can get perinatal depression too and one of the major major factors that is a risk factor is that work life balance I didn't even know that existed in men I feel quite worried that I didn't know that lots of people don't gosh and do do what are like how are you getting on with workplaces listening to this depends on the workplace I think I think

19:52Steve Cardwell:your point before Anna about modeling behavior I think it's really important like this podcast called courageous leaders you need courageous leaders right so like when I've been having conversations with people it's no mistake that people that engage with me or reply to emails or had calls are men that have kids or dads right have went through this experience or have the courage as a md or hr leader to bring me and anna in to talk about this and help coaching the dad so i think again like that awareness you know as you said about the perinatal depression i don't think necessarily it's purposeful like people aren't ignoring the fact that dads might struggle returning to work it's just they don't know right or it's not necessarily thought about in the 74 things that HR departments need to think about but actually you know when you look at senior leadership teams there's a lot of men in their 30s and 40s that have kids in there right a lot of the time um so yeah it's bringing that awareness and making sure that there is this like sponsor or advocate who is a senior male that is modeling that behavior that does go you know what like let's give this a shot to see what results we get, especially from a performance and retention perspective, like Anna mentioned.

21:15Dr. Anna Machin:Can I say, and I think really what you're saying is you need a senior person. Yeah, you absolutely do. Because when I've worked with organisations, the most important thing is the buy-in. Because unless you absolutely buy into this concept that this is important, that supporting fathers is important, and you see it as a culture, then you'll never get through the door in terms of supporting people who want fathers transitioning, because people are just like, well, why would we bother? and it has to be a through company thing. So you can't just have, some companies have like a father champion and that's great, but it doesn't mean that everybody in the company is bought in.

21:46Dr. Anna Machin:You do need the people right at the top buying in and saying, this is our culture. So it trickles down because you get your champion, the champion then leaves, oh, we haven't got another one. Oh, well, it doesn't matter. And then it's just like a fad. It's not something that's bought into. So it has to be bought into. And I think the other thing that's important about it is it has to be specific to men. So what some companies are doing, and I understand why they're doing it. They are taking the maternity transition back into work package and just putting it on men. Or they're saying, well, you can just come along to the women's groups.

22:17Yeah.

22:18Dr. Anna Machin:And the thing is, men don't want to do that because for a start, men don't want to be vulnerable in a room full of women. It's quite intimidating. And also a lot of those groups are run by women. And what we found working with men is the best way it works is for men to peer support men. So we need those groups to be led by men who are fathers and to be there with other men because we know that then men will open up and then they will have these discussions and then they will attend but if you just wholesale put the maternity program onto people it's just not going to work and I mean have you got companies that are doing this and are you seeing a good adoption rate from the men feeling safe to even go in the first place there are some companies do it it's small it's really small um and you know we're seeing lots and lots of companies now which is great enhancing their paternity leave package which is wonderful.

23:06Dr. Anna Machin:But some companies then think, well, we've done this now. That's what we've given men and that's fine. And I think they need to be, as you say, courageous and take just the next step and go, OK, we've given you this. Because what's the point of investing in all those men and saying you can have six months off if you then get them back into work and just abandon them? Because some of them will leave. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you.

23:39Dr. Anna Machin:I'd also love to hear from you so if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas pop them into the comments and if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much, now let's get back to the episode. Do you think companies though, because I'm sitting here playing devil's advocate, I'm CEO in the corporate experience I've got that I was never aware there was even a problem, that there was even a problem there. So do you think there's not even awareness of really the core of the problem? They might just go, yeah, some people leave.

24:11Dr. Anna Machin:Of course they leave. They've got a better job. Other numbers, whereas I don't know for women the numbers were higher or we saw it was more visible that there was a problem. But I don't know if they're even seeing the problem.

24:23Steve Cardwell:It's more tracked. Like there definitely is, you know, stats and research and awareness around mothers leaving the workforce. in the first five or ten years. I don't have them to hand, but they're relatively high, whereas there is no data. There is no retention. It hasn't been measured. Like Anna was, you know, the lead pioneer in fatherhood research because she was like, no one's done anything. No one's asked the question. No one's done anything about this. Been banging the drum for the last 15, 20 years on that. And now, you know, into the workplace. Yeah, we need people to take the, you know, the leap to be courageous, to provide the coaching, provide the support, change their return to work policies and measure it, right?

25:05Steve Cardwell:And measure it and give them that confidence from a performance and retention perspective that it is actually have an impact.

25:11Dr. Anna Machin:My concern would be the motivation to do that amongst everything else. So just flipping it on its head a bit, would there be, and I'm guessing you've looked at this, the approach of installing the courageous leadership within the men who have become fathers, to how do as they as a collective start having the courage to speak up and start asking for this is what we need. Okay, we've never really spoken up before, but this needs to change. Like I don't know what mothers did, if it actually came from mothers coming to workforces or if it's the workforces woke up. The way it usually works is we get these sorts of changes when, so with women, it was when women started asking.

25:52Dr. Anna Machin:And that's always, you know, there's this always this big thing, cultural change isn't caused by policy change. Cultural change is caused by people and by people rising up and saying, so for example, there was 30 years of feminist protest before we got the discrimination laws. So it wasn't the discrimination laws that caused it to become outrageous that women were fired while they were pregnant. It was the women themselves. And now we wouldn't dream of having a law, of getting rid of that law. And we've got to get to the same point with men where we wouldn't dream of, for example, questioning whether men should have six weeks paternity leave.

26:25Dr. Anna Machin:It's just, it should be a no brainer. And so it has to be, yes, those men at the top starting to push it, rather than just putting policies in place, but actually starting to talk about it, starting to push it. So men below start to feel, okay, this is okay. This is something I can talk about. One of the most amazing bonding moments I have ever seen in a conference. I was at a conference, corporate conference, talking about this. And I was the only one there talking about fatherhood. And I asked the men in the room to raise their hands if they were fathers. And, you know, 75 % of the men in the room raised their fire.

26:58Dr. Anna Machin:And suddenly there was this bond between them all. And actually the CEO of the company came up afterwards and went, this is like the best conference I've ever been to because I've actually found this amazing bond and I've been able to acknowledge this such an important part of my life. I would never usually talk about my kids at a conference. I would never usually admit to being a father and admit how important it is to me to be a father. And that was a really powerful moment because you've got all these different people in this room and they've all got so many differences but actually that brings them together and they've all got that shared experience i think can i jump in on that yeah i was just

27:32Steve Cardwell:thinking as well you know we and i talked about the paternity leave like the way i i sort of see this stuff going is like yes there's always going to be campaigners there's always going to be policymakers and yes of course we want that to change but the whole point of being deliberate is having that independent agency right like taking responsibility for your own circumstances So like if you're feeling like you need it, if you feel like you're working in an environment and you've seen that dads that you manage are really struggling and there is no support to do that, you need to do something about it.

28:03Steve Cardwell:Right. And I think like men, especially in that period of time, this is a challenge to everyone that I work with. Right. Where they become quite passive. Like, I don't want to come above the paper. I've got so much on. Let someone else do it. Whereas it does take a bit of deliberate action, as I call it. right like aligned action towards a goal that you actually want to achieve to make the change so it does take the people standing up right it does take the protest it does take the knocking on the ceo's door to make it happen otherwise it won't it won't was it and i think and as a collective

28:37Dr. Anna Machin:how you do that and find those people got because i think at the moment if you see a man struggling like in my perspective you don't automatically think it's because they've become a father no because everyone expects that just to be really happy and everyone goes oh well done mate and it's really good let's have a photo let's have a look and then they leave it and they don't understand how you know it is possibly the biggest transition a man will go through in his entire life it's much much bigger than puberty much bigger in terms of the impact on his life and we just don't talk about it and we just don't acknowledge it and it is a really difficult time because there's so much going on in the head there's so many pulls in different directions and one of the major pulls is you know these men don't return to work like fully babied up you know they still have a really strong part of their identity that wants to be a provider.

29:21Dr. Anna Machin:That's a real driver for men, is being a provider. We can't just tell them to ditch that bit. It's really, really powerful. And they are still ambitious, but they've got to find a way to do that where they don't feel like they're making their family suffer. And that's the really, really difficult bit for them. We're kind of in that 1980s bit with women where they were told they could have it all, which was obviously quite clearly rubbish. But men are now trying to juggle all that and find a way through. If you were then to say, if we go back to, you know, how can you be successful at work and successful at home?

29:54Dr. Anna Machin:What kind of three things, if a father's now listening, going, please tell me, how do you do it? What would you say they are?

30:01Steve Cardwell:I think like what Anna was saying, this like idea of having it all right. I think it is achievable, but not all at once. Right. So like when you become a dad, a lot of men ignore the context of that within work right so again this whole individual agency point so like understand that for this period of time yeah you might need to concentrate a little bit more in your family but that will change right like like anything i i talk to my clients all the time about doing reps on things right like using gym analogies you've got to use the do the reps to get better at it same with being a dad there's no like as we all know there's no like handbook for parenting like you've got to just do it to get better at it so like i i talk about seasons so like acknowledge the season that you're in and make deliberate choices based on it so you know i have a couple clients who are like marathon runners for example like probably don't book a marathon in the first couple of months of having a new kid right because you're gonna like feel constantly you're gonna feel like you're behind so again just readjust your expectations and standards for yourself within there that would be like a really good first point for me like be clear on the expectations for yourself.

31:12Dr. Anna Machin:Really nice. Thank you. Anna? Yeah, I think it is about handling those expectations and understanding that you will come to a place where you feel comfortable with this new identity. I think it's like that classic, just don't panic. Okay. As I said, the first three months feel really critical. They feel really difficult. And I think Steve's right. You've got to just release the pressure on yourself to be amazing at everything because you're not going to be amazing at everything. I think the particular thing to make men aware of is that, first of all, you are instinctively good at being a dad. All those biological changes actually are there to help you become a dad.

31:50Dr. Anna Machin:And secondly, don't look at your partner as the gold standard. Okay, she's probably at home. She's going to reach competency as a parent quicker than you are. And this is one of the reasons we need more paternity leave so that men can also achieve competence. So there will be a parenting confidence gap. It's the gap we don't talk about. so beware of that and yeah take the pressure off yourself you do not have to be perfect everything you will get there you know handling expectations one of the first things I say to men is there will be a delay in bonding with your baby because men have to build a bond through interaction that means it takes longer if you go back to work it's going to take longer because you're not spending that time with your child so just be gentle with yourself and it will come out in the wash and hopefully yeah try to be that little bit courageous try not to give into the culture of some workplaces where you simply don't talk about being a dad I think we have to start doing that if we can even if it's just your colleagues not maybe necessarily to your boss you know but to your colleagues just be doing it because I think you said something there which is quite interesting in terms of that interaction point because I think there's a lot of talk before is old babies aren't men aren't interested in their babies until they can connect with them or talk to them and I think you talk a lot about is it the rough and tumble yes part of that role is yeah yeah so rough and double play doesn't really start until six months because babies aren't first of all strong enough or in fact interactive enough it's absolutely true those first few months are tricky particularly sort of the first six to eight weeks three months that's hard because babies don't do a huge amount and they're usually very stuck to mum particularly if they're breastfeeding but it's not that men don't want to impact they find it hard to find a way in they tend to stand back a little bit and also they're a little bit intimidated a lot of them by that amazing gold standard mum who's breastfeeding and getting this amazing bond but she's had a head start if she's given birth to be honest.

33:32Dr. Anna Machin:So, you know, she's already down the line. But there's so much you can do at that point. And one thing that worries me when I hear it is when men say, I'm not important until the baby's like six months old. So I can step back. No, your baby needs you from day dot. You need to be doing skin to skin every day. You need to be interacting. You need to find something that's yours. So it might be bath time. It might be just skin to skin reading a story or singing a song. It might be baby massaging the baby before bed, something like that, that is yours because that will build a bond and that will close that parenting confidence gap and make you feel like you are a co-parent rather than a secondary parent.

34:08Dr. Anna Machin:So I think men need to understand how absolutely critical they are from the moment that baby appears to helping that baby have good development, even though you're not going to get anything back, but it is absolutely critically important. And what I love listening to both of you is really establishing what is the role of fatherhood versus I think we so the mother role we talk about a lot but I don't think we've I've never really talked about what does it mean to be a father apart from the fact that you provided some DNA to have a kid and for you did you feel that shift of becoming feeling I think were you in your business and you decided you wanted to be different focus and deliberate that shift to feeling more like a co-parent did you feel that yeah definitely I think there's probably both it's

34:54Steve Cardwell:like the taking the action does one and then the innate biological changes I think like for me personally um I was a lot in my own head about like you know reaching my potential and what is my purpose in life and I tried to find out a lot through work and you know I did lots of coaching and stuff beforehand on me to be able to get it and then once we had Pearl a few years ago like as I started becoming I'm like all right I care less about me now which sounds like a bad thing for work but actually it's a good thing right because you know a lot of the time I'm sure you have this in coaching conversations I have like someone who's um leaving a job and they're like oh yeah I'm just working through this um notice period and I'm not very stressed anymore I'm like well what's the difference what's the difference in work well nothing that works the same I'm like well you're different then right like as in your perspective on it is very different when it wasn't the big thing for me work then I was actually better at it I was able to make more you know decisive choices like Anna said do things quicker because I knew that I had less time so I think actually you know becoming a parent becoming a dad for me anyway like maybe care less about myself which actually upped my performance as in the workplace

36:15Dr. Anna Machin:I can see that yeah become less self-focused yeah it sounds paradoxical but actually like

36:21Steve Cardwell:being less self-focused actually helps you care less about yeah you know not not care less about the actions you're going to take but like be more decisive and be able to take more of the aligned actions which usually get to where do you want to go that's brilliant and then in terms of

36:36Dr. Anna Machin:I'm always curious what's the role because we have a lot of women listen to this and a lot of them are mothers what if they're listening to this first time going I had no idea that my partner because I know a lot of this work came from your personal experience, Anna. Yes, it did. I had no idea that this could be going on for my partner. And even as a female, I'm not even thinking of the questions to ask them or to check in with them because, unfortunately, they've probably become a bit self-focused with the baby. What advice can you give for the mothers listening to this in terms of how they can support?

37:06Dr. Anna Machin:I think it's about allowing a father to be who he is because fathers do have a very specific role. They're not a male mother. So they are not supposed to do things in the same way. They're not they will achieve the same end point, but they will definitely do it in a different way. So what we say with fathers is fathers have a very specific role in what in building resilience in their children and underpinning social skills and cognitions. And actually, their influence on those two things in children is much more powerful than mums. And they do it in a very specific way. So the attachment they build with their children.

37:41Dr. Anna Machin:Yeah, it's based on nurture because all attachments are, but it's got an added element to what we call stimulation. So all the interactions you see between fathers and children are actually quite physical. They're quite stimulatory. It's where rough and tumble play comes in. And sometimes, not all mums, but sometimes mums are very specific that things need to be done their way. I mean, I did, before I studied fathers with my first daughter, I was the mum who left a list saying, And at 902, you puree the carrot. And at 904, you put this particular bib on. And then, you know, and actually that's the worst thing you could do.

38:14Dr. Anna Machin:You just need to leave. Just leave. OK, because fathers will do it their way. And that interaction with their baby in that very specific male way is absolutely critical to their development. So I would always say to moms, yes, let your partner do it their way because it's really important. Yeah. And, you know, check in every now and then. Now, what I will say to a lot of women out there is your partner won't necessarily tell you the truth because a lot of men have that. She's been through a lot. I'm going to protect her from any of this. So particularly men who are suffering from poor mental health, really the last person they will tell is their partner because they feel that she's the one who's done the lion's share of obviously the pregnancy, giving birth, all that kind of thing.

38:53Dr. Anna Machin:But try to encourage him to talk. Try to encourage him also just to have space away from the home to go back to something, even if it's for half an hour a week that he did before he was a father. So it's all about understanding that he is changing too. He has his very specific role. Let him be who he is because then he will be more comfortable and he will become more competent. And so it's about women. We have a thing called maternal gatekeeping. And maternal gatekeeping can either be shutting the gate and saying, unless you do it my way, you don't get to touch the baby, which unfortunately some, some, it's rare, but some women do it.

39:27Dr. Anna Machin:Or you can open the gate and you can say, come in, come and join me. I you know please come and help me and be empathetic and compassionate and say you know you did that brilliantly I want you to do this I'm going out I'm not leaning you're going to be fine I'm just going to leave you to it because you're his or her dad of course you're going to be okay and so it's about giving that permission to actually be involved and the word that's coming up for me is trust absolute trust you trust each other because you're together yeah trust him because also he's been through you know you have this is myth that women are instinctive parents they're not There's a lot to learn as a woman when you become a parent.

40:02Dr. Anna Machin:Men and women are as instinctive as each other. So he is instinctively good at parenting because he's got all these biological changes, just as you have. So trust to that. Trust to his instinct. You know, he loves this baby as deeply as you do. So leave him to do it his way and it will be fine. I think that's absolutely brilliant advice. Yeah.

40:22Steve Cardwell:You just be more wrapped, right? Yeah. That's the thing.

40:26Dr. Anna Machin:The brain changes. There's a direct relationship between how involved you are and the extent of the brain changes. So the more involved you are, the more your brain will help you. Yeah.

40:34Steve Cardwell:I use Anna as an excuse now for when I wrestle my kids. Yeah. I was like, stop throwing out. He's just eating. Stop throwing out. I was like, I don't know. It's fine. It's bonding. It's like, why are you rock bottoming the kids? I'm like, it's okay.

40:47Dr. Anna Machin:And I think another myth we need to bust is, and I've been party to this as well, and I think I've said it, when the man's in the workplace, there's a father going, oh yes, well I've come back to work to get some respite and this is now my happy place at work. And I have a funny feeling men, it's almost become a thing that you say to fit in. Yeah. And I actually am sitting here listening, this is actually quite an unhealthy view, isn't it? It is. It is an unhealthy view. And I think you're right. I think a lot of men, it's what they're expected to say. And for a lot of men, it's not expected that you will say, do you know what, I love being a dad and I love changing the nappies and I love...

41:25Dr. Anna Machin:bath time and I actually want to be there because that's not a very masculine thing to say is it and it's not a very ambitious thing to say so I think a lot of men play up to that image of oh thank god I'm back at work and actually most of them from my experience it's been a really really traumatic thing I mean I remember one dad saying to me you know I've been in this glorious baby bubble for two weeks and I get back to work and it's just just such a stark contrast and I spend my whole day worrying, is my wife okay? Is my baby okay? I'm missing my baby. You must feel like you're abandoning. Well, yeah, they do.

41:58Dr. Anna Machin:They feel like, and that's where the guilt comes from. And they're like, you know, I actually today got, you know, to have a sandwich for half an hour and read the paper. I know my partner's not doing that. I know that, you know, I get to talk to grownups all day and my partner doesn't get to do that. And also my partner had a horrendous birth and I've left her with a massive cesarean scar two weeks. She can't even lift the baby. and I'm back at work and you haven't got family around you which so many people don't anymore and so you are really, the guilt is horrendous

42:26Steve Cardwell:I think like the we were talking about advice earlier and you know what you would encourage women to do the thing that I was thinking about as well is like this idea of encouraging men to connect with other men and talk about the experience as well and it doesn't need to be like right well let's sit down and talk about her experience of birth and go for a beer right and just say it will come naturally up if you've got the courage to actually have that conversation because it's hard like it's really hard like whether you're a mom or a dad it's both hard right like empathy is unlimited this isn't a men have really bad problems and women don't it's like we both it's hard yeah so I think like actually having the courage like we talked about right leadership whether it's at work or with friends just actually saying and acknowledging in the fact that this is not easy it's a really like intense period of life yes there's amazing joy that comes out of it and like I wouldn't change it for the world but you know there's a few nights recently I'm like jeez like this is like insane like how am I actually going to get through the next few days and you know that's what I like to put out in my content and speak to men about it is like an acknowledgement of the fact that like this is not easy it's so interesting

43:41Dr. Anna Machin:because it's the most normal thing in the world. And I think your stat is 80 % of men will become fathers. So it's happening to quite a majority. Yeah. Yet we still haven't quite got that vulnerability or those environments for men to feel that they can really go, I'm having, I'm struggling. I'm having this difficult. Or how are you finding it? You know, can I just get, I thought it'd be really interesting just to help people listening. What are some questions that if you're, I don't know, a question maybe a woman can ask their partner or if I'm the person at work I could ask the man what just to tool up some people to go well actually what are some questions I can ask to find out if they're how they're doing with their identity or how they feel being back I think the first question which never ever gets asked is just say how you doing how you doing how you feeling and acknowledging you know this work life you know work life home life balance is really hard how are you doing with that I said that's what I'm saying would you be quite I'd be Very specific.

44:38Dr. Anna Machin:Name it because then that gives them permission to say, actually, it is a little bit difficult. Yeah. You know, and, you know, how just asking that, you know, how's your baby? How are you finding it? How are you finding it heading home at night? You know, you know, how's the baby sleeping? That kind of thing. And, you know, if you are the kind, if you are things you can offer, you know, is there anything we can do to help you with this? You know, is there anything you'd like to explore? So I think it's really up about just really naming because then that gives permission. Yeah. So building in, if you're sitting as a leader, building in these times, you know, your one-to-one meetings, check in.

45:12Dr. Anna Machin:Think about your one-to-one with someone returning. Go through anything. Particularly if you're a leader who himself found it difficult, even as a woman found it difficult. Share. If you're happy, share that and say, wow, this period for me was tough. Yeah.

45:25Steve Cardwell:I was literally about to say that. It's like if you can share your own personal experience, right? You know, like I find that with the whole reason why I got into coaching to begin with was you know I was really struggling with you know like I talked about earlier this idea of purpose like what am I doing with my life is this pointless when I spoke to my friends about that after I went through a coaching experience they go oh yeah like I feel like that as well but that was the first time we'd had a conversation like that in 15 years of friendship wow because someone should shown the vulnerability give the permission to actually have the conversation so like Anna said instead of like oh how you doing like I remember when I came back to work it was so hard like the kids were this my wife had just had the cesarean like I was racked with this guilt like I know it's a difficult period like how are you feeling at the moment makes it completely different right like it opens it up massively and that's why I think also like for for companies I was having a couple of conversations with people having those conversations with someone who is a parent is really important.

46:32Steve Cardwell:So like, and especially if you can make a senior meal for a dad is really important. So it might not be their manager, but like just having a 30 minute slot within the first few weeks of them coming back.

46:45Dr. Anna Machin:Yeah. They get to talk. They get to talk. Make it part of that return to work thing is that actually we're going to have a one-to-one, but this one-to-one isn't going to be about work performance. It's not a going to, we're just going to talk about you being a parent. How you doing? How you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Making me think, and this is why I so wanted you both to come on the show, and I know you're doing everything you can at the moment to get this out there, is I remember years ago, I never had a conversation about the menopause, or the menopause wasn't spoken about so much. And I suppose it is.

47:11Dr. Anna Machin:It's just having these people that are willing to go first, talk about it, write about it, normalize it, that it's okay to talk about. It's the most normal thing in the world that we're all going to go through. So let's make it safe to actually talk about. before we close i'd love to know i'll come to both of you for you now if you think going forward what really is that definition now of courageous leadership with the work of what you're trying to

47:35Steve Cardwell:see change who'd like to start i can give it a go yeah yeah um i think we've touched on it loads of times today right but like modeling the behavior that you want to see in your workplace so having the courage to stand up and go we are going to put budget behind this we are going to spend some time thinking about what that return to work looks like for dads because women 100 % go through a lot of challenges but there is those guardrails in there already because women fought for it for 20 or 30 years before right so I think like having the courage to stand up as a leader and go this is what we're focused on and fight for the fight for father fight for it right yeah

48:16Dr. Anna Machin:really nice thank you and I just think it's just if you are a father talk about it at work to have the courage to talk about it yeah bring it to work and as you say model what you what you want your your employees to do and i think that you know i think a lot of people don't do that and i think just succumb to it talk about being a father make it part of your conversations every day and then you're going to start normalizing that that's something in our culture that is acceptable brilliant thank you is there anything i've missed any question i haven't asked you or anything you'd want to share before we we stop i just think um maybe as an organization just realize you've got this guy back he literally does now have this supercharged dad brain so it can be such a benefit to you as long as you support him so you know take that benefit yeah yeah because it's it's got nothing to do with commitment it's like look at what this person could then do yeah thank you both so much for your time and for the work you're doing i am leaving this conversation much more educated and i hope everyone listening and watching is doing doing the same and i just hope it gets the attention that this show deserves.

49:19Dr. Anna Machin:So thank you both so much. Thanks a lot. And thank you for everyone for listening or watching and we'll see you soon. If you've been enjoying the Courageous Leaders podcast, we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our YouTube channel. Your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact. We fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you. Thank you for being part of the journey.