How to Stay Courageous When Your Confidence Falls

0:00I was going for the job title. I was going for the pay. I was going for the ego. But I do remember looking around when I got promoted to leadership going, what have I done? It was the golden ticket. It was very good salary, lots of perks, getting flown over business class. And anyone listening to this, whenever you feel something might be too good to be true, dig deeper. I felt bullied, I felt isolated, I felt humiliated. Corridor whispers about you, rumours being spread about you, but it was a really, really, really tough place where I nearly lost myself. And I do use the term, I felt broken.

0:36At 18 I saw my dad sitting on the sofa, we had no idea. He'd walked me to my college that morning, we'd been to the theatre the night before, and then seeing him just look in my eyes, immediate heart attack and collapse. and I started complete full CPR on my dad and unfortunately I couldn't save him. I even look back today and go where did that courage come from? That night completely changed the course of my life and who I became and how I'm sitting here today. Hello and welcome back to the Courageous Leaders podcast brought to you by The Change Creators where we strengthen leadership teams creating environments where people and profits can grow together.

1:15As you may have noticed, I am not your host Joanna House. I'm actually her husband, Kevin, and the reason why I'm sat here instead of Jo is because on today's episode, Jo is sitting on the opposite side in the podcast guest seat, which we thought would be a good idea, but it's not going to be, is it? Yeah, how's it for you? It's really odd. Even sitting in this angle is really strange. Bizarre, isn't it? I really just wanted to giggle all the way through you doing that. Thanks for the support. Right, read your bio, I suppose. That's next, isn't it? Cool. Right, so Joanna Howells is apparently the founder of The Change Creators, an international award-winning coach, global speaker, best-selling author, and of course, is the host of this, The Courageous Leaders podcast.

2:00Jo has over 20 years of experience leading high-performing teams in top global advertising agencies. However, her most challenging role has been over the last 14 years where she's had to deal with me being her husband. How's that been for you? I had to be very courageous. That's where your leading stops. Let's get started. Okay. How was the bio? Have you lost your job yet or not? No, you're doing well. I can just chill out. It's lovely. Is it? Can I go home now? Yeah. For someone who hates their photos being taken. I know. And being on screen. This is courageous for me. It's very courageous. Very proud of you.

2:33Good, thanks. We'll crack on and ask you the first question, which you ask all your guests, which is what has been a courageous moment for you over your life or career? There's been many actually because I spent a bit of time reflecting on this and if I think about my career I think one was definitely and I think there's a real balance between naivety and courage. When I was at VCCP, Head of Project Management and we'd met and I'd always had a dream to go travelling, doing very, very well in my career, progressing, just done a huge transformation at VCCP and it's like I know what's a really good idea, let's quit our jobs and let's go traveling, backpacking in hostels.

3:11I think we're in our 30s for six months. And I think that belief we both had in us to go, no, we can do this. It's so important to live. And we had so much self-trust that whatever happened, we could get a job. Even if we came back and needed to do bar work, this was so important life experience to go and do. And so I think at the time, was it naive or courageous? But I look back and I'm so grateful for it because it completely shaped who I've become today. and then I say another one would be so obviously got some international patterns there's a travel pattern there's a travel pattern um but we'd only lived in our house for a year and then I get the opportunity to go to Melbourne and work in an agency in a c-suite position which was my with my whole ambition of life was to get to the top because I thought that was then meant I was worthy and I'd belong if I if I got to the top and then I remember coming down to you say um I've been given a job in Melbourne and I know we've just finished decorating the house and you were just like no chance I was like he just needs to sleep on it and he'll be fine it was 24 hours wasn't it 24 hours it's a bit like when I said would you jump out of a plane you're like let me just think okay well I've always been a kind of an element I'd never rule anything out but I kind of I don't necessarily if you go do I want to jump out of a plane I don't go yeah let's do it now I don't want to but I'll give it a go and I think it's similar to the Melbourne you go it's the other side of the world okay we've just moved into this house done the decorated building the house which we wanted to live in and now we're going to leave it for someone to rent and kids to wreck yeah i just needed 24 hours to wake up and go i suppose again you say naivety or courage it's the element of we applied to some of our lives and i think even working as well yourself with being courageous what's the worst that can happen and we thought about that and yeah so we just said we can come home we'd have a house to come home to but yeah so we just packed our bags and i think my mum wasn't overly pleased but then we went off to melbourne didn't know anyone in melbourne and yeah started in an exec position so i say they're probably the two courageous moments where i go it just took complete backing to go look we can do this we've had a lot of courageous moments especially yourself in your career of decisions and going with the flow and what's the worst that can happen and i know that personally though in your life you've mentioned a few times to your audience or your followers and stuff but not in complete detail um you've had a challenging and hard moment in your upbringing in your life as a younger self uh which you had to be very courageous with um your dad bless him do you want to share a bit more about that time yeah I'm happy to share because I think if I really go back is why is courage and why the courageous pocket why courage is so important because it it really has been the thing that's got me through my life because one of the most courageous things it's hard calling it courageous but on reflection I can see is courage thinking of an 18 year old walking through the house um you know and I was 18 I saw my dad sitting on the sofa we had no idea he'd walked me to my college that morning we'd been to the theatre the night before um and then seeing him just look in my eyes and immediate heart attack and collapse and I don't know what happened what sort of overdrive went into me but it was like I went into complete right mum called an ambulance Rick get downstairs picked him up got him on the floor and I started complete full CPR on my dad and I even look back today and go where did that courage come from what took over me to do that yeah it was just this like and also this thing like this is my role to do I'm going to put myself forward to do it and I did it and unfortunately I couldn't save him and it was one of the most traumatic nights of my life because I remember also getting to the hospital and we'd just been told my dad had died My nan and granddad had just arrived in A &E.

6:54My nan then collapsed and had a heart attack the same night and subsequently had three heart attacks. And the only way my brother and I could go and visit my nan was to pretend that my dad was still alive. So she couldn't, hopefully that wouldn't trigger another heart attack. So that period of my life was where I had to access the most courage I've probably ever had to, which has probably given me that sense that, wow, if I could do that, although I still have normal human challenges, that evidence was there that I could step up in that moment. And I also remember in that same week, my dad had a very, he was a chef, not that you'd know I took any notice of how to cook.

7:33I was a very good waitress. I didn't take any notice of the kitchen, which is a real disappointment now. You're not even clearing up. You don't cook, you don't clear up. I know, I just serve. I'm very good at serving, taking orders. But he'd set up a whole night the week, and it was something he was so proud of. it was his own signature evening he designed the whole menu and so my brother and I used to work for him and I don't know again very courageous of my brother that so it's only like five days after losing him we wanted to honor his memory and we both showed up and ran the restaurant looked after all the guests and I look back going it was probably not healthy we did that but I do have so so much pride that we did were able to show up for him and honor that memory so there's a lot that that night completely changed the course of my life and who I became and how I'm sitting here today.

8:20Thanks for sharing it's interesting I think even with the you know doing the restaurant thing five days later there's no rules is there everyone reacts to grief in different ways so with that how do you feel that grief has affected you both personally and professionally in the latter years going on after that with years to come and you know with with the career your choices or your life choices do you feel that's had an effect in one way or the other or oh yeah huge effect I think it's the grief the trauma the 18 year old I remember someone at the funeral saying to me right you know you're the responsible one now you need to look after the family and I really took that on as a role was I was like that's then my duty to do so I went full pelt although I did have moments where I self-destructed I did go a bit crazy at moments I remember cutting all my hair off dyeing it black dyeing it red get my nose pierced went off to Ibiza to be a rep I did go a bit crazy was drinking too much um but somehow I still managed to hold down a job and and I was very very career focused and I set myself a goal and it was from losing dad because also I wasn't naturally academic my brother has got a PhD in dark matter I don't even have an A level so you can imagine growing up the comparison of Rick's the smart one Joe's the one with common sense so I had this real drive to prove myself and this real drive to I decided that I was going to once I'd got the crazy years out the way and the grief you know when I was experimenting and hurt I then decided to live my life as if my dad was still alive to make him proud which is healthy and unhealthy in some respects but what it did it gave me real focus grit drive and determination to I just said to myself I will be on the board before I'm 30 and that was a goal I set to go to do it I had this my mum was in recruitment so I'd been brought up you climb the ladder you work hard you get in before you boss you go home after your boss I was brought up I was making I remember I went in as a secretary so I didn't have any qualifications I was in a secretary at like 19 I was making 30 cups of tea a day everyone was working late I'd stay I'd just get one pizza there was such a work ethic drilled into me from my dad because I started working for him when I was 12.

10:33Where's your chef? Chef is not a lazy job. Chef working you know and I said I started working when I was 12 I was running the restaurant when I was 15 you know tilling up doing people's salaries that were a lot older than me so I wanted to honor what he gave me in doing that and just carry it on so I did work very very hard and long hours and was absolutely determined that I would get to the top. That's great. And then do you want to have a brief overview of the companies you worked for? Because obviously there was a complete drive to get to the top and there's the reason when you did get to the top that almost dictated a different career today.

11:11But then a brief summary of where you went to and working your way up there. Where and where were you? Well, yes, I was very lucky, very fortunate. My uncle had owned Grey, started Grey. not not great it was gray integrated it wasn't um the gray we know today uh gray integrated and i went in as a team secretary all i'd done is my mom because i i needed to leave for a level so there were some issues with the teacher and it wasn't comfortable for me to stay any longer so my mom was like i'm going to send you to a posh finishing school you're going to learn to type really fast do shorthand walk with a book on your head get in and out of a sports car i did all of that which i think is hilarious if anyone can see my nails now you can see i definitely didn't take the makeup or the nail class at all we haven't got a sports car so i don't know if you can still get in and out hope one day one day i think i don't want a sports car i'd love a beetle that's what i'd love but that and i didn't feel like i fitted into that secretarial college but i actually did do really well there um and actually i lost my dad halfway through being there and i remember being pulled into the head head's teacher and he said to me we want to honor you we honor one student a year a scholarship and i was awarded the scholarship and i just oh i feel emotional now i burst into tears because it's the first thing i'd ever been awarded the first time i'd ever got recognition for any form of academia or studying and i couldn't tell my dad so that was a really tough moment but again i was just like no i determined used it so i was very fortunate my uncle gave me a job he actually gave me a job before i went to the college but i was like i can't start being your niece with no skills i'll be hunted down you've got to walk into the office with a book on your head do you know what i mean yeah and it was i did have a few people say to me oh if i didn't realize you're the niece i wouldn't have treated you like that i'm like come on like it's not i treat treat anyone badly you've got to work harder i did have to work a lot harder and again that pattern of needing to prove myself so it's proven myself to dad proving myself that was good enough to get the job to work for my uncle and i loved it it was brilliant um and i remember there was a point where i was like i'm not an account person i'm not creative so i don't know where i fit within advertising and then i got very very drunk with lindsey mcmorrow um creative director who just said we need to organize creatives and this is when creatives you being one of them all sat in offices yeah and we need to organize them we need someone to just come and manage their workload I'm like I can do that and I remember walking into creatives offices with boxer celebrations just to bribe them to take on another brief easily bribed it's a bit and that's how I really began and then I went to head of project management launch project management at McCann it didn't exist I'm not McCann sorry Joshua at the time it didn't um Project management didn't exist at that point.

13:45Then I went over to VCCP, Head of Project Management. That was incredible working with the founders then. It was a tough environment, a tough environment that I'd been used to, but I learned so much. It really challenged me. And again, did a big transformation there for project management, integrated producers. And that's when we obviously went off traveling. Came back, I had found my home at McCann. I absolutely loved my time at McCann, especially working with robin lolly and alex luba i learned so much from them and then then from mccann and then then well i did get on the board before i'm 30 if anyone sitting there go did you wonder i got on the board at joshua before i left um as create services director um but i do remember looking around when i got promoted to leadership going what have i done like i was literally be very honest this is why i care so much about leadership now i was going for the job title i was going for the pay i was going for the ego i was going for the accolade accolade the recognition as you say you haven't got the o levels or a levels and you're saying how made up you were with the certificate of the um the school it is the the kudos of what i have achieved something and again it's approving yourself it seems there's a pattern of needing to prove to yourself or your dad or others there seems to be that pattern yeah i hadn't realized i was probably just constantly seeking validation yeah that i'm enough yeah i think that's what i was always looking for do you feel you don't have that internally then i didn't i didn't and it can creep back in I think I know for me as soon as I as soon as I go start going into uncertainty again or I start going into the unknown when I start to expand my comfort zone again because I feel like I do it every day at the moment running a business that's where the am I enough to do this next stage can come into what I've learned is that the minute you feel that you're not enough you need to act so when I first started doing this and very comfortable in the seat over there being the host to start with it was petrifying absolutely petrifying i didn't am i enough to be a podcast but then the more you do it the more you it's like going to the gym you build the muscle and you practice you're like oh i can do this and then you start getting the feedback you're like of course i can do this so for me now whenever i feel i'm not enough all that means to me is i need to take some more action or i need to upskill or i need to unlearn some behaviors maybe because we've got to move into a new territory or I need to ask for help whereas not feeling enough used to stop me hold me back meant I needed to hide or that I needed to quit yeah and that was a very unresourceful I'm not enough and I'm now using it as much as I possibly can to make it resourceful for me to keep moving forward yeah and it's interesting I mean as your husband I see the warts and all and she hasn't got any warts I remember you when we first met it was like you didn't even phone your friends i was phoning my friends all the time and you were scared to pick up the phone and i was like what which is fun i don't want to be a bother what if i they answer and they don't want to speak to me or they're busy he said well ask them have you got time to talk it's quite simple but then you develop so much to going from there to going on the live recording or just recording yourself and put it on on linkedin and stuff then kind of doing the webinars and stuff live and everything and then obviously developing to speaking on stage and then doing this to podcast the transformation is I was gonna say ridiculous but I mean that as a positive it's admirable and you know I've told you too many times how proud I am of you and I need to learn I have learned so much from you um from it but it is a prime example of for others as well because I know people can see people like yourself and doing their thing and go well they've got it made they're brilliant at what they do I'm not that good you can be because no disrespect you weren't you were a shadow of what you are today and you still have self-doubt yeah you know and you're human that's the you know i defy any human not to have self-doubt and question but i suppose it's learning the tools to realize right i'm feeling this way what can i do about it to try and get me out of it and your expansion of the comfort zone is ridiculous uh in a positive way um yeah and i've seen that that growth so you are an inspiration well to me but to others as well i I think that people can do it.

17:55That's what a nice to do is. Right, happiness like you're off. Yeah, but you still can't cook and you still don't tidy up after yourself. But it's fine, pick and choose. Right, okay. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call.

18:35Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. Obviously, with that career working your way up and you did get up to the top, obviously, VCP and McCann was great. And then we did the move to Melbourne. Do you want to touch upon, obviously, moving to Melbourne was, it was great. we had great times but it was challenging times both individually and together do you want to you've mentioned it a bit but tap into that a little bit because that kind of leads nicely on to why and how we came home and then eventually how to change creators yeah so it was very exciting going to melbourne um and if i'm really honest which i think is why we do this podcast and the courageous leaders it was the golden ticket that it was very good salary lots of perks getting flown over business class combination like it was a bit of a golden ticket and anyone listening to this whenever you feel something might be too good to be true dig deeper we were like little kids we're kind of like almost if we don't deserve it like we've won a willy wonka competition yeah and what i didn't do was my due diligence i only met three people in the senior team it all just sounded so good amazing i didn't really research the company or anything i was just like this is brilliant like this is a dream job let's go so definitely responsibility on my part that I got blind I was blinded with the golden ticket and it started off really well it started off good and then very quickly I just started to notice some very strange behaviors and then I realized that there was a situation where I'd been hired to help remove somebody else which I had no idea about but this person then decided to become very passive aggressive to me blame me spread rumors about me which wasn't very nice I then had some other senior members take a dislike to me didn't think I was capable of the job I'm not sure exactly why I became a target it was quite helpful later on to know I wasn't the only one so it was it would seem to be a bit of a pattern of behavior not that I wanted anyone else to experience this but you're trying to work out what have I done what have I done and it was just handled really really badly I felt bullied I felt isolated I felt humiliated as a term I felt front stabbed many times in front of people and it just hurt my gosh did it hurt and I did wasn't equipped to deal with it I say I'd come from VCCP McCann especially McCann incredibly supportive um everyone getting on with each other to this environment of backstabbing front stabbing competition corridor whispers about you rumors being spread about you and I became an absolute shell of myself I arrived very confident and feeling like I knew who I was and leaving in a complete shell to the point where I was having panic attacks I was needing to listen to this is me from the greatest showman flash dance and I got a feeling song like just so loud just to be able to walk in the door to kind of give me some sort of adrenaline to be able to face the day and the only kind of saving grace a little bit was um the cfo at the time um was just wonderful to me we shared an office and without him i think i would have lost my head completely he was incredibly supportive and looked out for me but it was a really really really tough place where i nearly lost myself um and i do use a term i felt broken yeah and it's and yeah it has led to why i do what i do today well i mean again we were the other side of the world it was great exciting there were lovely bits which we still fondly we've gone back and you know we're still in touch with certain people who are at the company as well so it's not everyone at the company as well and none of them are there now anyway none of them are at the company but yeah as a husband seeing you broken and you know being the other side of the world without family it was before covid so there was no default zoom every single time we needed wanted to video face time our parents and stuff like that they were asleep and um yeah it was i noticed a difference in in yourself and it was tough but then out of the darkness as such to coin a phrase you found light or your new path potentially with the coaching institute in melbourne which do you want to talk about that i remember you kind of dragging me there one weekend where you're still working this was because you've always wanted to be a coach well now and then you started i always wanted to be a counselor when i was younger and many times did I look to could I go and retrain and again being very honest at that time I'd got so used to earning a certain amount of money I also think I still had some beliefs of not being smart enough to really study because I had no evidence that I could study or do exams so I kept talking myself out of it so then when it was when I was at McCann and Zaid Al Zaidy got everyone on the board a coach and it's the best thing he one of the best things he ever did and I was working opposite this coach and I was like where did you train I didn't even know this existed and I went and did all the training but then obviously got the job to Melbourne so put it on pause and when I just knew that I needed to leave the company where I was at that it was you know we came to a mutual agreement because you know the CEO could see what was going on it was it was not it was not good at all and I was on Facebook of all things saw this ad for this training course ran down to you and said there's this weekend course and it was a case I needed you to come with me.

24:01I'd lost my confidence that much that I couldn't even walk into a room on a training course on my own, which had never been a problem for me. That's how much I'd lost who I was. And you were amazing. You came and you took part in the exercises as well. And I would say that weekend for me, I think grew our relationship even more as well in terms of we learned how to communicate more. We learned about each other's rules, why you get annoyed with how I stack the dishwasher and we just learned i think so much insight and just human beings that i actually go has actually helped us as a couple as well yeah i think yeah i think it has that first weekend i mean again i was a bit so naive or skeptical uh i thought it was a bit of um with everyone saying right in your hand at the same time it felt no disrespect but very american yeah you're high five and yeah you're great and all this again yeah great and but um the yeah as i gradually went more and more the lessons you say it's life lessons really which you can apply to everyday life and communication to yourself or to others i learned things you know even just changing the language of nightmare i always used to say things were a nightmare traffic's a nightmare clients a nightmare change that word nightmare to inconvenience you just you know devalue the kind of the stress in your body or your brain is you reduce the intensity and i mean you end up giggling yeah yeah joe that client was a well did they yeah yeah i was at leo burnett's when i in melbourne and had a client meeting presentation and they were a nightmare but i could just came out they just didn't get the idea and they were just going on their own way which is fine client's prerogative but why get us in um but then i went back to my desk and i was literally about to go through my work down on my desk and i said about to go to clients a nightmare but i stopped myself i said clients an inconvenience and because i stopped myself i made myself giggle and because of that i giggled and went all right that's quite funny i've changed it and i wasn't so stressed it was almost all right well if they want to do this let them do their clients does it really matter is it a great campaign it's not groundbreaking let it go to coin your song but having that moment to defuse that situation and my feelings really helped whereas if i'd have gone the client was a nightmare i'd have been vent up i'd have walked out tripped over something else would have happened which would have stacked yeah and it's just things like that just simple tools which i remember when you spoke to your mum bless her who's been really supportive of everything um we'll just say over the years um when you told her about the coaching she did turn around and go yeah it's just common sense isn't it really which technically it is but it's just not as easy to apply to understanding the human mind yeah and considering i think we still don't fully understand it you know a lot further than we were but to understand that and I think the most powerful thing for me was when someone said to me your mind is not you it's a tool for you to use so although I'm terrible with directions I do see my mind as a bit of sat nav I am responsible for what I program into my mind and what I feed it and then that will take me the direction of where I want to go in my life and I would say from that coaching weekend recognizing the the power of taking personal responsibility knowing that whatever is happening to you is your choice and you have a choice to change it you have a choice to stay you have a choice to remove yourself you have a choice to accept the situation and again if you accept it then that can diffuse all the anger and the angst as well and that that what coaching has really helped me do is just to really take embody who I am internally what's really important to me but have know that I am not my mind it's a tool that I use to take me where I want to go um and that has enabled everything that came after with starting my own business yeah I was going to say leads us nicely on the term choices leads us on to see I'm quite good at this you are quite good I'm gonna lose my job it leads us on to the choice to do the coaching and it was thorough coaching which you did it wasn't just a six-week course hey I'm a coach here's my badge I can coach everyone you have done i know there are courses like that which is fine if people want to do that but you've done intense coaching over the years but it led you to go right i'm going to create the change creators um do you want to tap into your why you wanted to do that i know it's based from going up to reaching to the top and going shit is this it yeah and but then also it's helping people not to have that journey or to feel the things which you went through do you want to go into a bit more detail of the why there's a few things like to start off it was just the sheer sadness anger and disbelief that people could get to such senior positions and lead in such appalling ways and it'd be so egocentric so self-centric and not really embracing that leadership is about bringing people with you and I was like this can't be leadership this can't be what we want the world to have um and it was sad actually because I was just having coffee with someone the other day just literally they've just got to a top position they were like how how did these people get these jobs and it's like i know but and then that frustration that people are put into these positions and not given the support not given the help a lot of people just get job titles because the company want to stop their moaning and go i will just give you this job yeah or they are good but they're great because that's why you've promoted them great but then there's no support or training or coaching to go this is a new role yeah it's that whole thing of what got you there is not going to get you here.

29:27And then people don't know how to elevate or step into that new identity. And leadership is very different. And you're dealing with teams. You're not just dealing with projects. You're dealing with teams and people. It's human beings. Dealing with human beings is the hardest thing and recognising that people don't see the world like you see it. And the empathy and the time and the patience and being able to let go of the day-to-day yourself. And there's so much change happens. And this is where the change creators came about. is number one it was the way to create the change in leadership that I believe the world needed to see and to not tolerate bad leadership anymore and then recognizing that the way to do that change and especially because I needed to do it to myself like all my coaching it's all I had to do it to myself first and was the internal change you need to make like that change you get externally in your life comes from the change you make internally of understanding your internal world understanding how to use your mind, understanding your responsibility, your choices, understanding your behaviors, why you do what you do, and then understanding how you connect to others, your impact you have on others.

30:31When you can understand that change that needs to be made, then we can really make the change that needs to be created in leadership. So it comes from very much what personally I've been through and experienced on the other hand. And by any way, these were my peers like god knows what happened to their teams um just just a real passion that creating environments where people can go to work and feel safe because when you feel safe and you feel like you belong and you feel seen and you feel heard your performance will go through the roof yeah that's what they change it's all about relationships isn't it i've always felt that in industries that creative companies that i've worked with if you treat everyone well and you build a relationship with a team people will bend over backwards for you but if you treat them like shit or ignore them then you're kind of if i care about you you're going to care about me is that is that reciprocity i can never say that word is it reciprocity i don't know you don't know i thought you're about to go i was about to smell something really good then kind of put things away and start cooking i'll be back to that what um you mentioned um self-leadership yes what does that actually look like in your daily life it'll be interesting for people to know because obviously they see you on stage and doing everything um but we know that kind of you you're not a robot you're human um so how do you find self-leadership and applying it to everyday life and remember as a husband i can call bullshit on this i know so this is gonna be completely honest because if you say something which i don't agree no you don't okay here we go i wouldn't i wouldn't say anything i don't do anyway self-leadership for me was number one is hugely increasing my awareness and i remember like when we first used to get together um I couldn't say sorry I was so stubborn you'd be the one that always had to say sorry all the time because you just needed to move on and I couldn't say sorry so it was just getting that awareness of hang on a minute why can I not say sorry and I realized a lot of it was a fear of rejection if I came and said sorry to you you'd go yeah just go away is that it was the fear of rejection that was stopping me coming down to be able to say sorry so once I got that awareness and I could reflect on it I could then go actually let me just really regulate my behavior if I do just start saying sorry because I don't know if that's I was just mind reading or painting the worst that that's what you would do let me try it and then if you do push me away or reject me I then again I've got the self-leadership to go okay well I can choose how to manage this I can choose to get angry with you I can just choose to walk away so it's having that awareness being able to reflect on why you do something but then being able to regulate your behavior for me is self-leadership and it's also a big part of it is managing emotions and defense so if you and i are having a bit of a tit for tat um it's recognizing when you're trying to express something to me really having that leadership self-management to diffuse the defense calm my chimp down not go to just react and just stop and although it's all bubbling up inside me give you the space to talk without jumping in and then also and i think you do this as well being way more conscious of the choices of words we use.

33:34I think both of us are so aware of the power of the words we choose and the impact they can have. And we correct ourselves a lot as well because we don't always get it right. It's not about that. It's about just the effort. So that self-leadership is, again, it goes back to that personal responsibility I said. It's recognizing that you are running your own show. And don't blame other people for the way you think. Don't blame other people for the way you're acting or your mood. It's all within you. and you can you're you're driving your own bus and everyone's different you know whether you're in relationships or in a work environment you know you mentioned about the mind reading that's huge because someone could be thinking oh they're thinking this and that person is not thinking that at all they are completely on the other stratosphere of what they're thinking but your mind is kind of thinking that and so you're just kind of getting involved and big thing with us which helped i think relationship wise not this relationship counseling and we haven't got it all made at all but you know it's the communication yeah you know we've learned to instead of mind read each other or think oh kept thinking that or joe's thinking that because they've done xyz or not done it we opened up the communication more just to say look i need to just let you know that when you did xyz i felt this and there's no right or wrong but it's an element of just informing them of that if you said that to me about something oh wow i didn't realize that made you feel like that and I don't want you to feel crap so I'll stop doing that I still think it's not a matter of right or wrong you know I still might think all right doing this is still fine but if it makes you feel crap then I'll try and stop doing it I think communication and feedback really helped and acknowledging that although something might not be my experience it's yours yeah so for me that might not affect me or make me angry or bother me but your experience is there and that's how you make it makes you feel so so important to acknowledge and respect that that was somebody else's experience even if it's not your own and he just reminded me like i was in the gym last night and just thinking how crazy your mind can be is there's somebody in my life at the moment that hasn't done something i was hoping they would do i had a no it's not you we'd have a chat now you're like the perfect i can call bullshit on you as well i mean i mean i know you're in the host seat but i had this whole conversation with this person in my head while i was getting ready for the gym and i'd literally just had to stop myself and this is self-leadership to go why am I talking to you in my head like playing this whole conversation I was like wow that's nuts but what's quite nice is now I can catch that's the self-leadership I can catch it I stopped that conversation to go like I'm putting words into this other person's mouth I'm having an argument with him in my head that may not even be why this thing hasn't happened there's probably a really good reason why this thing hasn't happened and I just sat there for a moment going how powerful our mind is but and how easy like that conversation was creating emotions in me it was making me like agitated and it wasn't even a real conversation and this is what that self-leadership is just catching yourself and getting aware of what is going on within you just a quick reminder if you haven't already to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel it's a small action that makes a big difference you'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you i'd also love to hear from you so if you have any thoughts questions or ideas pop them into the comments and if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team just drop me a dm and we'll set up a call thanks so much now let's get back to the episode and also let's give another people permission but i can't know where you got it from could one of the thousand books which you read every single day and stuff it was the latest thing you've got with uh let them oh so when people are kind of annoying you or there's say they're just stopping in front of you or they're running in front of you you get annoyed go why have you just done that but you almost go there might be a good reason why they've done that because they're rushing to they need to go to hospital or something like that or whatever the old let them do you want to explain that a bit because it's a nice little talk yeah i love it it's so so important and i know we experience it a lot when we're queuing for in airports like waiting to check in a bit we're waiting for the check-ins open and it's that whole thing of getting frustrated that the queue's going slow and stuff and it's just that hang on just let them take their time let them do but the let them bit is the bit most people have got tattooed on their arm but the most powerful bit that Mel Robbins talks about that a lot of us forget to do is let me and that's the bit I'm really working on at the moment okay okay I'll let them calm down or let them do be at the shopping till and be counting like pennies for like 10 pounds it's like yeah it's like just let them but the whole thing is let me then decide how I'm going to respond to this am I going to calm my emotion down am I going to stop the chat of having with them in my head because everything is taking energy out of you and i've got a um a beautiful friend uh kerry who recently and i thought it's so wonderful just said actually that's just not in my energy bucket at the moment and i was like oh gosh yeah we really do need to look after our energy and just think of all these little micro moments during the day where we let other people have got no relation to us wind us up it's just taking your energy away so this wonderful concepts so just let them if they take longer to do this or they want to have a chat for longer and then just let me then manage this to not take the energy away from it it's also similar to changing the things that are within your control and if things are out of your control we can't make the airline queue go quicker yeah so what we're going to do moan or just stand your own way it's kind of what's going to be more you did a brilliant thing for me i remember i made is that is that gonna be the title of the podcast kev did a brilliant thing for joe well i remember that might be the podcast title now just change you said it's a courageous leader podcast kev did a brilliant thing for joe podcast we need to move on you've said this a few times now um is when i sent um an email to the wrong person the wrong attachment to the wrong person and i was horrified that i did this i was working too fast which i'm telling don't do that again And I came down to you and I can't believe what I've done.

39:29And I went into complete catastrophizing mode. And you just sat with me and said, right, have you done everything in your control to make this okay? And I said, yes, I've emailed them. I've emailed them. I've done this. I've apologized. He said, so you've done everything in your control. I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, now let it go. Is there anything more you can do? No. Let it go. Is it going to help you to now keep spinning in your head, panicking, sitting here all tense? Or can you let it go? And I just stood there and went, oh, yeah. how is it going to help me to keep winding myself up worrying about what anyone's thinking I've done everything I can to make it right and it did, it just helped me just go oh yeah, detached from that now, I've done what I can now let's focus on our evening together and I used that a lot because it's a very powerful thing, it's just that stop for a minute, have you done everything you need and then let it go I can give that advice to you and other people who can't apply it to myself that's another podcast episode speaking of podcast, then obviously you set this podcast up as well and we're going for three years now a year on youtube fucking hard work but it's great and so what mom and dad don't watch this um but it's so rewarding as well because of the amount of people that you meet and then you know the great feedback i know we have to rely on algorithm and likes and please subscribe i know we say subscribe it bloody helps it's ridiculous play the game but but beyond that the messages of support that you've helped people it's been great but can you tap into what you feel about the podcast but also the why of why you do it as well because this is self-funded we're not sponsored so there's a lot of time and commitment but you do it because of you love helping people love helping people but the big why behind it and the reason why again courageous why this word and this the thing of being courageous is so important to me is the courageous leaders podcast is to give a platform for vulnerability.

41:16I really wanted people to see what it's truly like to lead. Because I think some people, they see leaders and they put them on a pedal stool, or you've got to be that way to lead, or you've got to be super confident to lead. And I have loads of people go, I feel like an imposter, or I can't do this, or I can't do that, or I can't do this. I say any leader, that's a big statement. Most leaders, I coach leaders every single week, all feel that. All feel, the three universal feels we all have is not feeling like we're enough, not feeling worthy, not feeling good enough. I work with CEOs, global CEOs that still feel that.

41:52So I wanted to create a place where people can talk and normalize this, normalize the human experience of what it's like to be a leader, to help people have the self-belief that they can do it and they can grow because there's so many people that can be amazing people leaders. Some of the quieter ones, more introverted ones, you know, I'm 100 % introverted. This is learned extroversion for me. But I go home very tired, but it doesn't mean I can't do it. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. But there's a lot of people getting missed or overlooked because they're not your typical what you say is a confident, outspoken leader.

42:24So I just wanted to normalize the different types of leaders there are. You know, we had Alex Grieve come on from BBH. He was wonderful, and he is a quiet leader. But wow, we were so in awe of what he shared and his presence and his inspiration as a leader. and then you've got the opposite from someone like karen martin who's amazing who is that more confident direct spoken leader it's not there's not one size fits all and the courage for the guests to come on and say actually it's tough this is what i've been through and to normalize it and so people could see the human behind the job title just to keep encouraging great leaders to come come forward and as you say there's no one size fits all and every leader can be completely different because we are different human beings but you learn certain tools but it's how you lead and react to your team and you know even just meeting the leaders you know we did the breakfast yesterday with some of the podcast guests and they just love bouncing off each other as well and going oh wow you're going through that as well i think as you say it's not lonely at the top that's another thing you say no i don't believe it shouldn't have to be because we're all going through the same struggles or we can help each other yes we've got clients which might clash or you kind of want their work or etc but at the same time if we can learn of each other and you know human interactions especially in person now so important yeah um great um time is cracking on you're right it does goes quick didn't it well we must be having fun hey i think we had fun for five minutes um so last question which you normally ask people is what would you tell your younger self other than you're going to meet and marry someone who might be potentially better uh being a podcast host than you you've got very comfortable this haven't you it's nice i like this you're gonna be we're gonna have a whole spin-off series we came out yeah good i might just stay in what would i tell my younger self having to not dye your hair red i know you didn't like that did you my younger self i would say two things stop waiting for someone to make you feel like you belong just choose to belong and just you know stop waiting for this magical thing oh i belong now I fit in like you do belong and the other one is you are smart enough and that was a limiting belief for me for so many years it held me back for so long of just not speaking not raising my voice not asking questions because I didn't believe I was smart enough and just because you don't have a piece of paper or university degree and all of that it doesn't mean you are not smart enough so with that the belonging you're not smart enough is then just back yourself keep going and the thing I always want to remind myself is embrace the playfulness keep playing keep so if you said what you tell your older self now is to keep remembering that child within you as well that that playfulness is when you because otherwise I think life can get so serious yeah and life is short and life is short yeah and so yeah I think it's wonderful and also another build on that as well I think it's an element of when people kind of it's hard doing work no matter what you got with its own business or accompanying stuff everyone kind of have done so many amazing things but everyone looks at that one negative thing yeah and focus on that and i think you've fallen victim to that i have as well it's kind of just when that happens catching it and almost going look at all the amazing things which you've done and which are working the kind of yeah stacking up and focus on that and and with that you know you have done i'm so proud of what you've done as i said not going to cry um but then again with the feedback which you get from people you know that's why we do this or you continue to do this because it does help people and so firstly thank you as a husband um but also you know for what you're giving to people it's um it's great so i'm proud of you um anything else you want to say you normally give people uh an out if they want to talk about me if you want well first of all just a thank you i know this took a lot of courage for you to sit in that again i said no first of all didn't i get 24 hours i must stop going to sleep when you ask me a question i should just stay a week awake because i think when i go see i wake up i normally get my own way when you're asleep so thank you for the courage thank you for the support and i would just on the note it's just like anything is possible it really is believe believe in yourself back yourself and i think as you said life is so short um and if you don't feel like you can do it on your own at the moment there's plenty of people that want to help and support books become my best friend um if anyone wants to know the books i've read i've got a whole pdf of them you know just message i'll send you the pdf and every time i pick up my book of mine my mindset is sorted i've got another insight and another way of helping myself navigate this life but if i look back to go sitting here now with you know the trauma the grief the change the bullying um you know there's there's a lot of other stuff we haven't covered as well there's a lot we've been we've been through So it is possible you can keep going with the right help, the right tools, the right mindset.

47:17There's help out there. And communication. And communication. Be okay. It took me a long time to say how I could never even label an emotion. I didn't know how to. From losing my dad, I became numb. I learned how to shut down. So I didn't feel for so many years. So just to learn how to label emotions and to be able to talk about emotion, again, was a game changer. so learning how to express yourself and do it one step at a time it doesn't have to be a big overnight change just these little steps and before you know it this internal world gets stronger and stronger and stronger and you go i could be a podcast host i could run my own company why not yeah what's the worst what's the worst that can happen yeah yeah that's great thank you very insightful and encouraging for other people so thank you so much it's been fun i think you gotta say thank you and goodbye to the audience all right don't tell me what to do i was about to do it unbelievable so controlling I'll need to get a coach on that anyway now I will say thank you to our listeners and viewers to tuning in to the podcast as I said please like subscribe and all that bollocks because it does help it's ridiculous sorry please like and subscribe lovely people because it really helps and join us next week where I won't be here we have to deal with Jo again so thank you thank you bye bye if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact we fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you thank you for being part of the journey