Is Ruthlessness the Price of Reaching the Top? | A Leaders' Panel Discussion

20:22Sergio Lopez Ferrero:It's too big, which is why I think you get such a big,

20:24Katy Wright:just a busy or a broad answer back, because there's no way, as you said, to give that life story. But that's definitely fantastic. Thank you. business first one for leadership room 101 Sergio what would you like to see banished

20:37Sachini Imbuldeniya:I would like to see banished something that I see now a lot which is leadership fear tell me more and it's a I mean we're in a very difficult time right now I don't think there's been such a change in 20 something years since digital came on board or ever since the industrial revolution you have the world is changing the companies are changing you have holding companies consolidating and buying, small companies coming in and out, and everybody's trying to figure it out. And at the end of the day, if you're a leader, if you run a company, your role is to provide for your people and the people that own your company, right?

21:11Sachini Imbuldeniya:Like that's what you have to do. And you do it by creating a product that is good and you price it well and make money and grow. That's really, really difficult because the world is moving. And sometimes when leaders face having to make big changes, right? Like sometimes, unfortunately, you have to fire people, hire people, tell people to do new things, tell people that they might not get a raise this year. It's very unpopular. And leadership had fear of our clients go away, especially internally within their teams. Are people going to leave? Are they going to like me? You know, I see a lot of the, are they going to like me?

21:44Sachini Imbuldeniya:Am I going to break a very good culture that we have? We used to be like a family. Saying like that, I think is one of the big mistakes of companies because it can be family-like, but we're not. It's a different thing than that. And they start like doing a number of things, such as if you work in a big company, you start creating this abstract entity, which makes all the decisions, right? Like, hey, we're having to do this because we've been told that we have to do it, which leads to a number of things. It leads to people that work in the team. One, having fear of their own home, right? Like having this fear of this abstract place that tells people to do things without context.

22:20Sachini Imbuldeniya:And it totally undermines the leader. because all of a sudden the person that is supposed to lead that team feels like that person is not under control, has no say, is he has a Muppet, and you can see those companies spiraling out of control where you have people that don't want to work in that company, therefore they don't have purpose, they don't have excitement, it creates a very bad culture, it creates anxiety in the people, you start seeing mental health issues, you have leaders that cannot drive the team. And I think that that is a time where a good leader right now has to be bold, which is a very difficult thing to do, and explain people, as a leader, this is the vision that that person has put in place.

23:00Sachini Imbuldeniya:In a time of change, this is where we think we need to go. These are the things that we might need to do to get there, and some things are going to be difficult, some things will be exciting, but together they would make it together. And for people to recognize, is this the place where you want to be or not? And if it's not, let's help people find an alternative to that, because sometimes it's not the culture that is going to please somebody. I don't think that all the companies are for everybody these days, which is, again, it's a very uncool conversation to have right now.

23:29Katy Wright:And it is difficult, but it is so true. There is fear-based leadership, fear-based decisions. And yeah, there's this thing over there that's directing everything.

23:38Sachini Imbuldeniya:Everything bad.

23:39Katy Wright:Everything bad comes from somewhere else, not you. Katie, I'll come to you first because I know you've been through a lot of change and I'm guessing in your career seeing this quite a bit. What's resonating with you and what's your view? I think I feel like a part of leadership is always making difficult decisions. And the best advice there, and again, we probably created many different podcasts on this Room 101, but you need to make decisions quickly and you need to, they need to be very clear where they come from. So I think this, the unknown dark force that is governing decisions, I agree. I think that can be really dangerous.

24:12Katy Wright:Equally, it goes back to transparency and leadership and vision. People need to know what they're a part of. you know they need to know what they're signing up for um one reflection on fear and leadership uh for the table um so i don't i don't i don't disagree i don't think you should if you're talking about you shouldn't back away from your responsibilities as a leader i absolutely agree um i think there's a little bit of fear that's positive like worry being a bit the self-awareness fear as a leader because information people think they deliver information in a way and it's not often the case because lots of people are programmed differently so i think then there's a natural fear i have a fear of letting the team down right as a leader i don't want to let my team down i if i was running a small bit like the decisions you make make a big impact that might decide on whether this month that month this change that change i think that's a kind of healthy fear fear to not have conversations or fear to make conversations about something else I agree with.

25:16Katy Wright:But I think there's a kind of balance. I think there's a healthy fear that you can have as a part of leadership and risk averseness around leadership. But it's not about being, I think leaders should be bold. I think they should be brave. But I also believe there's lots of different styles of leadership now. I think we've gone all the days of this sort of alpha, male or female, them or that leadership. I think leadership can be, what's exciting about leadership now and I think it's opened up more than ever is leadership can be seen in lots of different lots of different guises and that excites me and I think some leaders can be very vulnerable and that makes them really like that makes them a beacon of someone you want to work for so that's my only subject that would be my little kind of push I agree with you it's again it's going back to a bit like how you were breaking down there's different busies there's different fears and I think you know fear can drive some positive behaviors but it can also drive some negative and what I'm hearing here is like yes we've got different leadership styles we've got more vulnerable leadership styles but ultimately what we're saying is leaders need to take personal responsibility yeah for how they communicate what they share and to take some ownership that as a leader you may not agree with everything that you're needing to do but that is you're being paid what you're being paid and you're the position you're being positioned because you are the person that needs to communicate that and own what you're doing and such what's your been experience with this?

26:40Sergio Lopez Ferrero:I think it's it's a tough one because there are different types of leadership and I think CEOs have always been seen as the people that are most likely to have psychopathic tendencies because of the fact that they can be brutal they can be cold they can be cutthroat they can just like you know have no empathy or emotion attached to people and I think I'm the opposite of that so I'm I'm such a soft touch and that's probably not a great thing so I really struggle and I think when you do have a smaller team you have very personal relationships with everybody in that team because I don't like to use the word family but it kind of feels like that because you're just that you're small right and you're kind of together all the time um so it's hard when you have to make really hard decisions financially if you have to let people go you know you can't help but think oh god but they're a single mum and you know they're relying on me or oh god you know that person is amazing but they're struggling for cash but we can't afford to keep them how do you have a conversation so I think I am quite open about my vulnerabilities um not extremely so but like enough um and I think that so far Touchwood has has worked well but on the flip side I've also worked for very large organizations and for leaders that have run teams through cultures of fear and that just hasn't resonated with me like it hasn't I've always naturally been a workaholic but when someone runs a team through a culture of fear it makes me want to leave at 5 30 I don't want to stay that extra mile whereas if I've got nice leaders that are empathetic and they kind of they care and you know they really believe in you and they they're kind I guess it makes me want to stay longer it makes me want to put the extra mile in because I it makes me care more about the business and them um so I've always taken the we've always taken the approach at House of Audities where it's why can't you make amazing work and be nice people I am.

28:30Sergio Lopez Ferrero:It's kind of the way we see it. We're confused by that they're a bit mutually exclusive generally in the industry.

28:36Sachini Imbuldeniya:That's where culture matters. Yeah. And I think that that's something that I personally didn't believe it until later in my life. I always used to think like every company was the same. It was about the leader. And it took me 20 years to realize how important culture is. Yes. And how when somebody is looking for a job, they should really look at the culture of the place and the culture of the... Because with ES, I learned that there is no good or bad. It's just what it is, right? So if you work for a holding company, there is investors, and as investors, they want profit back. And the good thing about a holding company is there is a quarterly statement that tells you what the company wants to do, so it's really transparent.

29:17And that's the outcome of the company.

29:20Sachini Imbuldeniya:If you work in a smaller independent company, you have founders that are very passionate about something, which is I don't think there is anything more difficult to open your own company and run it and build it from the ground up is going to be a much more personal project and a place that has a different perspective on personal realization, growing, things like that. And those things drive the culture of the place. I think that when people are looking for a job, they should really be looking at, is this the culture aligned to me? Is this what I want to do? Is the style of leadership and the outcomes what we want to do?

29:49Sachini Imbuldeniya:What I find a lot of times is that you have people that are not looking into the culture and then demanding a culture. yeah right if is i want to go into a holding company but taking the same risk as an independent it's like that's very difficult it's a very difficult a very difficult thing to to do so if you value if you value working with smaller groups and be able to invest on some things and be able to take a level of risk you should definitely think about it twice before going into a big

30:18Sergio Lopez Ferrero:holding yeah holding company and also if you're happy to not have the big agency day rates too Totally.

30:23Sachini Imbuldeniya:Like big day rates, which also means skill, which also means investment. And that's where you see different kinds of people. What people are talking like psychopathy on some leadership styles. I can tell you that in my personal journey, when you start running big operations, some of the things you do, you have to do a little bit of soul search between who you are as an individual and who do you need to be as a leader when you win a large account, where you're hiring a lot of people doing things, and all of a sudden that account goes away, you have to disrupt a lot of people's lives. And those people, some of them understand it, some of them don't.

31:00Sachini Imbuldeniya:Some of those people are very critical about you as a person on the internet. Some people threaten your life on the internet. And all those things, it's very difficult as an individual to not react to that. And when you've done that for a number of years, it just changes you in a different way or makes you look at things as slightly different, and think the culture of who you are and have to get into terms with it.

31:23Katy Wright:I think that's interesting you say, the culture of who you are and then the culture that you join. And I do think there's a lot of people I've seen that they've sometimes joined a place as one person, had to do some really tough, horrible things and then actually harden up and become not a particularly nice leader. And I think a lot of this is, yeah, especially I think if you choose to be a leader, you've got to recognize you're going to need to be uncomfortable, but also have human beings best interests at heart when you're doing things it's any final words from you before we go to the next one it's just isn't it I feel like sometimes we completely overcomplicate things oh yeah and um you I think culture is the key I mean how do we win we still pitch right I mean god I have a whole room 101 on pitching we still pitch but it's chemistry you feel it you know I feel like can I be can I do this the best work you make the excuse when you meet people you like they mean it that you feel it I I by the way I mean the whole podcast on it but kindness to me is the key having creating an environment where people feel safe will mean you stand a chance of them doing their best possible work yeah irrespective of the size of that environment i've gone into a much bigger environment i we were probably i don't know what we would have been medium not small small um but creating a place it's really simple all of the things that you needed creating a place where people can show up feel psychologically safe not terrified when they come into work creating a place where they feel like they're part of something they're part of the momentum so they might not earn they might be not being kind of like danger money territory yeah but they feel like i'm making a difference yeah that's what we

33:06Sergio Lopez Ferrero:get so we get so many people that want to work with us and it's amazing the type of talent that we attract but i always have to explain like we can offer amazing culture we can offer kindness we can offer autonomy over projects where you don't have 20 other cds working on the same thing you know we can do what we can't do is match the big agency we just can't but a lot of people will accept that because i think they would rather have and i'm also very transparent in that when we can afford the big rates we can do that but at this moment we can't so we if you're happy to grow with us then come on that journey with us um but a lot of people seem to want to do that because i think they'd rather do great work and work in a nice place than kind of work somewhere that they

33:43Katy Wright:feel is toxic or anything like that and that goes back to the thing is being honest yeah i mean that's what we can't do rather than trying to blame some outside forces to why you can't yeah you can't do

33:52Sergio Lopez Ferrero:i also think we're in an industry where people generally do want to be in that industry and love their jobs that we're very fortunate to be in the creative industry I have so many friends who work in other industries like finance or lots of places where they just live for the weekend and I think at least as creatives like in that space you kind of creativity doesn't really stop you kind of you're you're excited most of the time to come into work because you want to work on that

34:14Katy Wright:thing so then they deserve to have good leaders that can tell them what's going on exactly yes

34:19Sachini Imbuldeniya:it's really funny you say about kindness because I would have agreed with you and I truly believe in that until a few years ago I took over a team that somebody had built so I was inheriting I had to restructure and I came with a very human and I mean I truly believe in humanity on teams and and create a safe environment and the team had been built around when you do like typology of people people who were obsessed with winning and making money and kindness didn't apply to them they couldn't care less they wanted to be they wanted to feel like they were the best team in the world and it was like Taipei and it and it really caught me off totally caught me off guard because that's the only thing they care about compensation and feeling like they were winning and doing the best work maybe that's the only thing they knew is that the way that that must be that must be true but it was a very that made me open my eyes like and really look about what is the culture of the team like going back into culture is yeah and accepting that that there is

35:14Katy Wright:a broad range of cultures I think there's a response there's a definite responsibility as as being a leader because people can want for progression but what comes with that is responsibility and there's let's be honest about it there are things that you'll know you'll know that not everyone needs to know so it's this balance of transparency but also responsibility as a leader I certainly don't I truly believe you don't need to lead with fear and I truly believe that leading with kindness creating a culture that people believe is a winning culture um it is proven proven that kindness is still saying what needs to be said yeah and i think that's it is and i think i think you're not you're it's really hard because people can be naturally people pleasers in this business as well right or not wanting to let people down and there there are people in this industry we know there are but i mean you don't care how you feel right and they do a very good job of pretending like they do i mean let's just not let's not ignore that either so i think there's this balance of being fearful of making decisions is wrong because that will not help the entire organization.

36:21Katy Wright:But also understanding as a leader, you have responsibility, you have accountability, you should provide clarity and you should try to provide transparency where you can, I guess.

36:31Sachini Imbuldeniya:Yeah, I think it's exactly that. If you're going to carry a team of people along until they're coming to the journey, you have to be honest and transparent so they understand if that's where they want to be or not.

36:40Katy Wright:yeah and I love I mean I love it I love it I'm gonna finish on that most so we've got our third one Sash what is the thing you would like to banish into room 101 so the thing that I would

36:52Sergio Lopez Ferrero:like to banish is the pay-to-play ecosystem that we seem to have somehow normalized um and what I mean by that is I mean that there's so many barriers to entry in this industry and everything seems to cost money and as a result it feels more and more like it's not about how great the work is it's more about how big your wallet is and that kind of applies to so many things from like the many many publication subscriptions that you have to sign up to in terms of getting your work written about and seen and heard in terms of entering awards and the fees getting shortlisted and then the expense of the tables that you have to pay for in terms of intermediaries and you know the fees that you have to pay to get access to briefs in the first place in terms of sort of events and festivals and all the kind of industry things that happen and the ticket prices that exist just to be in the right rooms in the spaces with people and I mean I'm not saying that people shouldn't have to pay for anything obviously their businesses too and they have to make money but I think at the moment there's no equal playing field So what happens is small indies are paying the same price as huge holding companies and that's killing small indies.

38:06Sergio Lopez Ferrero:So I think if we can bin the unequal playing field and make it more equal, that's what I'd like to do.

38:12Katy Wright:Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. I know you look at Katie's face.

38:47Katy Wright:I know you've got a view on this. I just think that's brilliant. Yeah. are i can we just let's just use this as a therapeutic session from having run having gone into i'm guess sergey's told me i'm now working at a large agency i was working at a smaller agency we all sit there having conversations about how expensive award entries are let's not pretend there are intermediaries out there where it is a pay to play yeah they're like they shamelessly pretend it isn't we all know you know who you are they it's true like why sorry why Why would we not? We shortlist the best list of agencies for these clients.

39:23Katy Wright:No, you don't, because you don't include everyone.

39:26Sergio Lopez Ferrero:And I'm sure I'm going to get banned from all the awards now, but I'm saying what I'm about to say. But I also find it frustrating because some of the awards bodies, not naming any of them, charge quite high entry fees. But at the same time, like I've judged many of them, but they don't pay their judges for that. And that's quite it's quite weird because they seem to make a lot of money from award entries and tables and everything that goes with awards. but judges will commit hours and hours weeks weeks of time to go through 350 entries in a category and all the case study reels that come with it and they they're told that you know you you're you're getting the kudos but you know the for for judging the award is kind of like the payment i'm sort of like the kudos doesn't pay the bills um so it's quite hard and frustrating

40:09Katy Wright:i think some of those some of the some of the intermediaries some of the industry bodies they do do a dependent on your scale dependent on your turnover that feels that feels fair right and i think some make a real they are real experts in the area yeah and we're not saying we don't need them i was shocked um because i i had a turnaround project in terms of when i went into a leadership role a few years ago we just i was going to choose training budget over a subscription to x or y yes And as much as we needed to win new business, it was going to come down to Roy's sleeves up. Yeah. You know, start grafting.

40:48Katy Wright:But I was shocked to discover, let's say, some of the things that I read when I was coming into the industry that would be my, that you just can't access. So we have to sort that out.

41:00Sergio Lopez Ferrero:Yeah.

41:00Katy Wright:There has to almost be a fund which everyone pays into to make sure that we're making it accessible from people from lots of different backgrounds. Yeah. Also young people.

41:09Sachini Imbuldeniya:I just think it's myopic on their point of view, meaning understanding that it's a business. A lot of the award shows, not all of them, but a lot of them, they do all of the awards in other industries and they make money with that. I get that. But if you're saying that you want an award show that is relevant, meaningful, keeping half the business out and actually the part of the industry that is doing some of the most amazing work is a little bit myopic. right like you wouldn't want to make sure that you have a show that really signifies if you're talking about work shows the best work work that talks about like what is that culture in that moment in time so i think that they should do it not just for money but just to make sure that they're still relevant and interesting otherwise if if it's a scale game you're only going to reward three four agencies in the world so you're only going to get a small portion of what's going on and you're missing out on some amazing work there's so many talented small agencies out there

42:00Sergio Lopez Ferrero:that just won't even enter. They won't enter because their like is just not in our remake, but they're still producing excellent work and nobody's getting to see that work. And that just feels like a real shame for creativity. Like, how are we going to move forward creatively if we're only rewarding the same people that have the deepest pockets, I guess?

42:15Sachini Imbuldeniya:But it happens in other industries, right? Yeah. When you look at feature films and you have the big studios doing all the massive press things and they're missing on a lot of the independent films, a lot of the films that actually people are liking. And it's the same problem. They stop being relevant most of the time.

42:30Katy Wright:I feel like we've got good work. This is the most important thing. This is the thing that will keep the business, the industry we're in alive, right? The creativity and the value that we drive with that and the impact it can have on our partners. You know, client business, so important. And so we're all, I think, in vehement agreement of the importance of creativity and also it being on the stage. when it veers into this isn't this isn't having an impact on the business I have a problem with that because when it's just creativity for creative sake I think that when it swung that way I think that's wrong when the cash is out and we're entering this and it's not really you kind of go okay that's not right either so I do feel you've got I mean because there's so many layers to your room one oh i mean this is like the most this is many like so there's the being able to be put forward for business new business opportunities there's the celebrating the work that we've created opportunity because there is a cost to enter xyz awards and let's be also clear some awards there isn't i i think sergio was talking about this the other day there are some award shows that are saying of course you don't need to cost and and what you're seeing is this cleft for across the world of brilliant work and work that's then judged by people going wow that's that's something incredible and not people kind of kind of go oh is it full funnel is it this then they're going no look at what that's done shifted the desire had the had the distinctiveness meant that that person can go and walk into the boardroom and say i spent x it's done y we need to do more of this and that's we need to remember we're working in a business and i know they're working in a business and I know especially in print which is now digital online it's hard it's hard for a lot of those journalists but they also need to they just take a moment and just think about that because the IPA is tiered isn't it I think some of the intermediaries are tiered in terms of and it's net to net of revenue why there are definitely could be award shows I personally think there should also be a cap on award show they'll probably get hung drawn and quartered for this but it's gone a bit crazy yes yeah having judged many you know like some agencies are

44:45Sergio Lopez Ferrero:entering hundreds and hundreds of categories and you're sort of like it's really hard to compete if you're entering hundreds you're kind of you're probably bound to win i love the simplicity of a

44:53Sachini Imbuldeniya:word just like the mortals at lbb right because one one thing that it does is you do still have to pay for rewards i mean you pay for membership yeah but it's another thing you have to pay for But it's marginal. It's a quite pallet. I mean, like individuals could pay for all that. And then you get like all the information through the year. But what I like about it is, one, you recognise creativity by creativity. I think that we can all point out what is good, what is bad, independently if it's full fan or not fan or films. And the second one is you can submit work for free. And you see the winners and you see what is going on that year, what is really relevant in the world of advertising.

45:31Sergio Lopez Ferrero:It would be nice to cross-reference, actually, to look at the winners from that. Oh, you should take a look at it.

45:35Sachini Imbuldeniya:We do that.

45:36Sergio Lopez Ferrero:Yeah, just to see if some of the work doesn't even exist in the other awards shows, I guess.

45:40Katy Wright:If we were being a bit cynical, I think also your point on, let's just take a moment. When we've entered awards that you vote on, how many times has the all-agency email gone round and said, can you all make sure you vote on this? Where if you have an all-agency of 15 people, 15 votes. and also hopefully other people going god that work is amazing but there's an also an unfair advantage yeah yeah right and then move that up to a whole can you all make sure you vote i mean i i'm not going to go anywhere near vote fixing not that that would ever happen um but i think it's really important i think this is a really this this was important to me when i was a part of the network running a smaller agency going thinking about every pound we spend yes and going i definitely need to make sure i'm investing my people because that's critical to our future success but i also need no from a new business perspective great work being out there and awarded and it having an impact on my clients business is also going to help the begin you know the spot like yeah the sick that circle i can't speak but i put my teeth in this morning

46:50Sergio Lopez Ferrero:the cycle kind of yeah yeah yeah and that's the thing like we have an 86 strike rate of winning a business that we pitch for but it's getting access to the briefs in the first place and for me like it's a weird no-brainer because it's like you're excluding an agency that could do amazing work for your client as an intermediary but just because they can't they don't have the funds to pay you seven grand a year or whatever it costs right um so i just think you're you're minimizing the creativity and and what the work could be because you're putting a cost on everything and again that's not to say that i don't think everybody should be paid because they're all businesses and they all should be paid I just think the scale needs to be different and it should be attributed to your revenue or your size or something like that so we're not paying the same amount as a massive holding company because that doesn't seem fair I think it's a brilliant

47:36Katy Wright:one to enter and the thing that's because I've now got to sit and pick which one's going to go into leadership room 101 and I've danced because between all of them going I see that is it that but I've actually there's something you just said Katie on that is what you've shared there in this pay to play. I actually think if the intermediaries and the award show people came together and supported the industry more, and I said, it could save the industry. We're all a bit nervous of what's happening in the industry at the moment. It really could change the way we work. And it can also go, I'm thinking, actually, if we really looked at this system to make sure everyone's work's got seen, everyone feels more motivated because it feels fair.

48:16Katy Wright:They feel there's a possibility to get their work in the world. I don't know, maybe that could reduce some of this busy behavior because actually we don't need to feel so protective or fearful our jobs because actually it's exciting because we can get the world out there and then you can play without costing a fortune and then maybe there's a chance it could just start reducing some fear because we brought creativity back which we all love and the passions back there and maybe it could actually culturally start solving some of the problems that we're seeing in agencies at the moment because it's so much fear right now that actually if we can solve this bigger problem at the top it could filter down.

48:50Sergio Lopez Ferrero:Yeah.

48:51Katy Wright:So on that, because I have danced around, I do think, actually, I am going to pick yours, Satch, because I think if we can make it a fairer playing ground, it will culturally change agencies. So I would like, can we all give Satch a round of applause going into Leadership Room 101.

49:07Sergio Lopez Ferrero:I think they were all amazing. They were all amazing. It was so hard. It would make such a difference to this industry. Just making it more accessible for everybody will make the work better. It would just unlock so much.

49:16Katy Wright:I mean, I think it's also just, just to take a moment i think it's brave i think it's brave to bring up topics that people never bought up that we may have discussed in the pub probably why i don't get invited to many things anymore no you should invite to lots of things and i think i think it's and also because it come i know i can tell i've like sat around the table with you but i know it comes from a place of wanting the industry to be better right and wanting the industry to show up i bring up a topic which I'm like I know we can make marginal gains and improvements on I'm probably still going to say I'm busy later and we are very busy people and fear fear is such a dangerous thing but I do I agree I thought you were going major cop out there Jo would they I'm just going to connect all three of them but it was actually genius and I and I agree I think if we can make some movements in this and they don't seem to be too difficult I think it could have a huge impact because also you're bringing teams in that may not have qualified for the 65 hoops, jump in, go and work for X agency, but they make great work.

50:24Sergio Lopez Ferrero:Yeah, yeah. And it's not about stopping businesses from making money. It's just about fairness. It's just about equal playing field, fairness, that's all.

50:31Sachini Imbuldeniya:But also it's about diversity and variety. Yes. I think that's what makes something interesting and is the competition and tension is what usually drives to better staff. So in great work.

50:40Katy Wright:We need to get the excitement back. it's been the joy back exactly bring the joy back so I just want to thank you all that was absolutely brilliant I'm walking away with loads of notes and ideas and I'm going to massively catch myself definitely if I'm saying busy um but thank you all and thank you all for watching and listening and I would love to know in the comments what would you love to banish into Leadership Room 101 we'll see you next week if you've been enjoying the Courageous Leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our YouTube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact.

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