Toxic Positivity vs. Office Politics, Which Is Worse?

0:00Nishma Patel Robb:Do you think it's a connection that if you're really good at politics you're an arsehole and if you're not good at politics you're a good person? If no one is challenging decisions and making sure that you're learning from mistakes you just keep going down blind alleys where the same things are going wrong over and over again. I don't think great leaders are looking at job descriptions and I don't think it's good for our younger generation to always associate success and performance with pay. are you a traitor? That's a great team. That is so true. Maybe every boardroom, every leadership team should basically act like the traitors.

0:39Nishma Patel Robb:Yeah, do that game and see how you come out the other side. You've got to write someone's name down and you're like, Sarah, why did you do that? I'm going to try and create this as a workshop. It's coming, it's coming.

0:51Hello and welcome to the Courageous Leaders podcast brought to you by the Change Creators where we strengthen leadership teams creating environments where people and profits can grow together. I'm your host Joanna Howes and today we have a special Leadership Room 101 edition of the podcast. I've invited three incredible leaders to join me and discuss what leadership frustration they would like to see banished forever. They will each get their turn to share and pitch what their nominated frustration is and then I will then decide which one out of the three will go into Leadership Room 101. So let me share with you the wonderful leaders we've got in the studio today.

1:32So on today's show, I am so excited. We have got the amazing Nishma Patel-Rob, founder of Glitter Sphere and former head of brand at Google UK. Next up, we have Etta Davis, Dentsu's creative COO across EMEA. And then lastly, the wonderful Natalie Winford, chief solutions officer at Jellyfish. And Nishma, I am very excited to start with you. What would you like to banish in Leadership Room 101? one?

1:57Nishma Patel Robb:There's probably loads of things I'd like to but I have picked one particular one which is probably surprising because the way I often kind of promote huge positivity but actually it's toxic positivity which in quite simple terms I think is when the cult of good vibes has gone corporate which is basically that smiley faced silencing of reality where being relentlessly positive replaces being real, brave, or authentic. I think it's such a good one. And I actually recently saw someone in their values head always happy, always positive. And I'm like, you do know that could be quite dangerous that people, you're just telling people they've always got to be positive.

2:38Have you experienced it yourself and what impact did it have on you?

2:42Nishma Patel Robb:Yeah, both ways, both having been that person of being relentlessly positive, both at home and at work and being corrected at both levels. and actually probably for quite a while not seeing it but also being a victim of it so that sense of going oh but you should be really lucky you know our team's really lucky compared to other teams or you know celebrating grit of you know the hard work without actually recognizing there were problems and that sense of feeling like you can't speak up because if you do you feel that you're ungrateful or you're being awkward where you're just masking problems and it wasn't until after where I realized that kind of overt positivity was just a way of killing any feedback.

3:22Nishma Patel Robb:So, yeah, you know, I think it's interesting when you realize your own style has been, you think you're doing the right thing by being really positive, but actually just silencing it. And then on the other side, being feeling like a victim of it is you feel really bad yourself because actually then internalize problems. I think, well, maybe it is me. Maybe I'm not being a team player in this way, or we should be grateful as a team. but um yeah it's it's a really difficult one it's time for it to go Natalie have you experienced this yourself I think I've seen it I've seen it in certain leaders and I think it is I think it's fake and I think it's hard to be able to distinguish that particularly if you're under pressure to deliver as you said do you call someone out do you just kind of get on with it do you feel like it's best that you just contribute to everyone else and you know ultimately it leads depression I think at a time where particularly again for leadership we've got to be as authentic and transparent as possible or we know that's what really delivers um it's really hard and and I think as well it I think probably as you did Nishma it makes you go okay what's being hid here you know why are we feeling so pressured to constantly be um to constantly hide from it I guess but I mean it takes a lot of hard work to either be on the other end of it or I guess to perform it I would question why you know why you find yourself in that situation to have to do it all the time it would be really hard work so yeah not not a fan of it either no are you a fan uh no I'm not a fan of it um either I think there's something really interesting you both said around um sort of squashing feedback or you know voices of dissent or sort of challenge which I think is really quite dangerous not just for people's like individual psychological and mental well-being but also for like the business performance because if no one is challenging decisions and making sure that you're learning from mistakes you just keep going down blind alleys where the same things are going wrong over and over again what's really interesting I got sort of the I have a question actually for you Nishma do you think that that toxic positivity particularly the pressure on leaders to have it sort of like escalated during and post the pandemic because I've had similar I've experienced being the sort of the victim of it and you know tends to be I find a lot you know we've got like founder-led businesses and they're sort of their identity to the business is so strong that they don't want to hear anything that might damage that sort of fragile ego but when I was a leader during the pandemic there was a lot of pressure to sort of present this face and not actually confront the problems that you know the challenges that the business was sort of uh having and it became quite you use the term mask really hard to sort of sustain that um and you was almost sort of like frowned upon if you weren't presenting that but yeah i'm just curious do you think it's yeah i i definitely think it exacerbated in the pandemic because there was that pressure to kind of you know switch on your vc and go hi you know it's okay even though probably people were facing burnout and other pressures and interesting actually when I in that period of time was probably doing an element of that because we're all finding our way as leaders but also when I showed that moment of vulnerability when I couldn't hold the mask any longer and I was like just showed exactly how I felt to the team it changed the dynamic on my team immeasurably like we came closer than we ever had been but I think broader than that is and this is the hard bit is when it's intentional not intentional and I feel that when I was um you know subjected to that kind of environment it was amazing that they would almost ignore some of the feedback scores which were concerns around psychological safety concerns around burnout and it was always pushed to being something as like well I don't know how this could happen you know because we're being so positive I'm so positive we give everyone such opportunity and the burnout was almost you know again it's like well we've probably got the resourcing wrong you know so it's interesting where I think that's when that positivity was used intentionally because I think in the pandemic it might have been you know there's a bit of leeway to go we're all figuring it out but I have definitely experienced it when it's quite intentional do you think we need to train leaders to sort of be better at confronting negativity then like do you think that's probably well I think it's two things I think showing when I was being really vulnerable with the team you know and just was honest about what I couldn't cope with or what I was struggling with and even on some of the big decisions or campaigns we were working or wherever the the challenge might have been it totally transformed the dynamic in the team you know it was almost giving permission to others to talk about how they felt i think the thing that we need to do better with training leaders is that seeking out the challenge and the negativity and paying more attention to those signals and i liken this to you know i think for me the big wake-up call was actually with my son who was it wasn't very well had uh got diagnosed with type 1 diabetes and i did the classic thing as a parent where i constantly can it's fine it's all going to be fine you know there's technology that will help us and we'll do it and it wasn't until a few months later where he stopped and he just said to me can you stop being so positive mom I just need to tell you how I feel and I think that was a real wake-up call to me was that my uh you know sense of trying to be positive and smooth it over and give that sense that things were going to be great even perhaps inside I wasn't feeling it was I had just shut out any other noise and I think as a leader and particularly if I think about where it's not worked well for me in terms of being subjected to it, it's they were simply not listening or they didn't want to listen.

8:54Nishma Patel Robb:I think that's the training of listening harder. Yeah, because I think that toxic positivity can keep you safe, like pretending that everything is okay. And it is quite interesting. There are more negative emotions that we experience as humans than there are positive ones. So they exist. And it's also to say that those emotions, anger and all things, they're not negative. It's just learning how to use them well. So I think that thing of, and also that whole thing of coming back to, we have a difficulty saying no. There's so many things we package them up as negative, but actually they can be really useful and really well versus going, we've got to be happy and smiley and all we're all going forward as a team together.

9:27Nishma Patel Robb:Yeah. So I think it's a really, really powerful one. And I think it's also that piece around actually, as a leader, how do you balance that piece between moaning and constructive feedback on when it is negative? and it's i think that sometimes is a easy trap to falling because as the leader you actually it's not just actually how you're projecting your positivity you're believing that you're trying to create that that kind of overwhelmed sense of like let's get into it let's be positive but actually it's really interesting because i think it is a fine balance as a leader because i've seen leaders who unfortunately their style encourages that moaning yeah and that's not helpful either it's really interesting because there's also the interpretation so like you know culturally there's even within the uk but some cultures people kind of moan but it's sort of in the culture you moan and you kind of you know you sort of get on with it whereas um others and you know particularly working with colleagues in the us to your point like moaning even if it's like done in a humorous british way it's seen as something really quite negative or you know just making a joke about the situation but so it's so so subjective and yeah yeah and it is hard when you've got business challenges as well you know when I think as a leader when when are you honest and say this is a really challenging time you know every everybody is going to get through this and you know there's a difference from that positivity than actually already recognizing that it's going to be difficult so giving everyone that safe space you know which perhaps you didn't have to be able to go actually if you're struggling with it so I think there's a there's that kind of supportive encouragement which isn't that smiley positivity there's two it's quite a fine line as you say you know supportive encouragement for getting through a difficult time versus saying everything's going to be okay it's going to be all right and maybe using you know a different tone of voice where perhaps you're just ignoring and not not really looking at it I think that that's the fine balance because in you know realistically leaders are going to have to keep doing that and you can't keep everyone happy all of the time I think when it is that kind of toxic positivity you know how how much are you trying to sort of shove down people's throats versus realizing that you know that positivity actually should come from a good place and it should be more authentic and real it's a really good point because you've made a point there and it's almost um you sort of you can empower and give agency to everybody to actually help solve the challenges or you know if you're too much on the toxic positivity you're almost sort of pulling the wool over people's eyes which actually doesn't help them to solve the realities that the business is facing yeah I think naming it as you say yeah they're getting up saying this is hard yeah this is difficult or this is you know we need to look for this but but with that sense of vision or progress or the willingness to kind of get involved and sort it out yeah which is different to just grit your teeth and smile yeah yeah the thing is you think everyone just wants to feel seen and heard that's all we want we walk around with this billboard going make me feel important yeah And if you can all feel you're having a hard time and we're trying to pretend that everything's okay, you don't feel seen, you don't feel heard.

12:30And then, as you said at the beginning, it makes you feel quite isolated. Well, is it just me that's finding this challenging? Because everyone else has got smiles on and I'm finding it really difficult to bring my smile. So then it's very conflicting inside of you. And I think you can feel quite isolated in that toxic, positive culture. Ete, what do you want to banish in leadership room 101? Similar to Nishma, I went through quite a lot of things. And I basically settled on something which I think sounds a bit existential and like amorphous, but it does have a very tangible impact on the day to day of leaders and the organization.

13:05And it is organizational politics. And I also have to caveat it that I'm not sure whether this is a cause or a symptom, you know, of something else in the business. I think it's probably a bit of both. and I'm not talking about I guess sort of like stakeholder management you know which is a natural part of any organization or naive enough to say well where there's people there isn't going to be some element of politics I'm sort of talking about where you've got almost like an industrialized level of Machiavellian politics in the business and everybody is very focused on internal perception and reputation, sort of territorial and sort of siloed behavior, not collaborating, but also not cooperating where they've got like different individual objectives and, you know, ultimately creates a really negative work environment for the team and the employees.

14:01Leadership role model behaviors, I think, are completely wrong in that sense, because you're sort of demonstrating the wrong values. And I think it really harms business performance because suddenly everybody stops pointing at the thing that we should be doing which is the work and the clients and actually focuses on how are they jockeying and managing stuff sort of internally and it's sort of earlier on in my career I did have a sort of I guess when you're sort of naive right and you get into this morbid fascination with people who seem to be quite good at navigating that and sort of escalating until you actually realize that they don't contribute that much to the actual success of the business or the well-being of the team or you know the sort of the real things we should place value at but they're very good at managing the perception of them doing that and it almost becomes 80 of their skill which is a skill in and of itself it's not one I think our industry should being encouraging I don't have any answers to how we solve it but like it's like it's a it's a real challenge because everyone becomes distracted on the internal jockeying rather than actually getting together collectively to to do better things and do you think people can spot these people who are doing it quite easy or is it that clever I think there are some characters that are definitely overt um and you know people can uh spot them I think you know within leaders we can probably more reckon obviously recognize those people I'm not sure people who are not in leadership positions or management can see that because they don't get exposure to half of it um potentially um but There are also people who are very good at it, that they're not overt as well.

15:38Very covert individuals, yeah. And have you got a time, has this had quite an impact on you personally? Without sort of making it sound like I've had a sort of horrible career experience for the last 25 years, it's existed, I think, at some element in every organisation that I've worked in to one level or the other. And I think how badly it has affected the business has really been down to how aware the leadership are of it and how much they will, A, want to role model the behaviour, but also be really clear around things like strategy and sort of communication. If you're not going back to the point around transparency and everything else, if everybody's not on the same page and they don't understand what matters in the business they're working towards, then people do start to just naturally go into, I would say, quite defensive positions, which breeds a bit of that in.

16:30it's also not all people i think there's a certain amount within the corporations themselves and i think you know sort of a consequence of how the sort of you know organizations work the incentivization sometimes i think doesn't is not conducive and you know it creates that um uh challenge and then also structures you know whereby remits are not entirely clear then that sort of creates that that sort of uh situation i think little loopholes people can jump through yeah totally yeah nishma so you've been a leader for many years have you come across these characters gosh yeah yeah i think you're right i think it exists in every business um

17:13Nishma Patel Robb:i think it's it's interesting there's a number of things i think it's you can tell when that kind of organizational politics sits as a parallel culture to a business culture because it is its own thing and you can arrive in a new business and you're a bit like, I don't really understand how things get done. And then you start to realise there's this parallel culture that exists. You know, it's the kind of corridor decisions and corridor meetings. And I think in a matrixed organisation, it's easier to hide. It's easier to mask it. And actually there's kind of, you know, layers upon layers of different types of organisational politics.

17:48Nishma Patel Robb:And I think you're right. I think some people are real careerists out of it and have done very well from it. And I don't know if they should be applauded or, you know, derives for it. You could probably look at it two different ways. But I actually think the performance management systems are one of the most significant parts to play in it. So of course leadership needs to take better responsibility for thinking about organizational politics. And I think too often, you know, it's actually senior leaders right at the top of the tree that set the tone and permission for those politics to exist because they play them themselves.

18:20Nishma Patel Robb:so they're you know almost demonstrating the way forward but then i found that it's actually uh performance management systems as you say pit people against each other so just weakness in ways that you're incentivizing and encouraging people to behave and act and it's always that thing of saying you know used to frustrate me because actually the behavior that you want to have should be the thing that incentivize people a lot you know what's how do you want me to behave but yet too often the language would say you want them to behave that way but all of the mechanisms were very individually focused and as soon as anything's individually focused you are going it's hunger games yeah you know and everyone's out for themselves they're going to figure out their own way to do it and i think that's where it becomes quite hard for leadership even with the best will because you're then fighting an established system yeah and that's i think it's really dangerous you know and i think some people will say oh you know well politics exists in every business and that's just how you get things done but i think it's when you don't point it and point to it and acknowledge it you don't point to the fact that there is this parallel culture that exists not i remember a time where we it was so prevalent that the corridor meetings were where decisions were made you know and it became a point of what's the point of being in a room and doing all the work if actually it's just out there that's going to happen and there became a point of you know everyone banning those corridor meetings and they'd worked for a while and actually things were really good and a lot of the effort was around how do you collaborate how do you cooperate you know how do you move from that kind of competitive box over but it's then how quickly it seeps out and that's what i mean about you know the senior leadership gotta hold the line on this they cannot doesn't matter what happens ever break because as soon as there's that one break yeah flood straight through again yeah absolutely and that's the problem because i work with senior leadership teams a lot they're normally the main culprits or someone on the leadership that's how they've got onto the leadership by playing those politics and i like um i can never say his last name properly patrick liassoni and they say his work the book the advantage you know talking about you either a working group or you're a team and that collective mindset and the fundamental thing that i see that doesn't exist when you start seeing these politics come in is trust yeah the minute there's not trust or you think you could get front stabbed or back stabbed by one of your colleagues yeah and i I think there's a lovely analogy as you think as people go up to a leadership team, you run your departments.

20:41So you've been encouraged to be quite individual going up, like head of this, head of that, head of that, protect your department, look after your department. Then you join a leadership team and suddenly you're told you've actually now got to work together and align together and make decisions for the whole, not just your department anymore. And I think that shift is actually quite difficult for people to suddenly go actually, can I trust these people around the room to have my best interests at heart as well as the companies? Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel.

21:13It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. Have you ever found yourself in that position where you've needed to play the politics a bit yourself? Well, it's one of the, I guess, leadership advices.

21:48If somebody says, give me some advice on leadership, probably one of the first things I say is learn how to get along with people you disagree with. I think that's like fundamentally one of the things that you've got to be able to do. I'm not saying it's right. And I don't think that any of us should be in roles or agencies where it feels like we're having to play a chess game. And also, I can't remember his name, but I watched a podcast, this brilliant guy, and said, you know, you really can't have within your organization high performing arseholes. Like they will end up ruining the high performers that aren't arseholes.

22:23And I think it is a leadership thing. And I think within within that team, I think there's a perception that if you're at a boardroom table, that it's like family and everyone should get on. And in reality, it's not that. And I think it's each individual that that that decides how much they want to give of themselves to succeed. I think with regards to ineffective people, which I think as well forms that kind of, you know, you talked about it. You know, are they playing the game in order to get, you know, into a certain position? I think you've just got to call it out. And it depends whether, you know, you have a CEO or somebody that's going to listen to you and respect that or you have the ability to change it.

23:05And I guess sometimes you just don't, unfortunately. So it's hard. And I think you've got to decide the environment that you want to be in. I wish it wasn't there either and I think sometimes businesses get really lucky and you end up with individuals and if you can find those like-minded people that's where the success comes from and you know the organizational side of it I think you know it strength in numbers I guess is what I

23:30Nishma Patel Robb:would say yeah but it is also that you get that which is a bit like the toxic positivity just as you said it was like it's the amount of times when you've been there and they go we're just like a family oh god you know and the family thing is the thing that masks it that's the worst thing in the world actually families are probably more political than anything else yeah and the only place you know trying to offer us a bit of a solution or a thought in it where i've seen active work to try and break some of those politics and i think it's hard because there's always multiple systems working but you know that point at the top is being part of a team where we were to your point when you come in and it's like you know leave your job task your department at door and you do that and that's quite a hard shift to make because inevitably everyone reverts back immediately to it's all great when you're you know you're talking about office space and stuff like that as soon as it gets into any like real like salaries and bonuses everyone's like straight in protect my team is we were forced to we weren't allowed to look at the resourcing and the performance reviews of our own team we had to assume a different role around the table you literally walked in and going right you're given this you're given this and you had to spend time really understanding well it was a great way to learn about different parts of the business and the drivers behind the decision making it was a great way to kind of cross-check leadership but it was done genuinely in a collaborative way because you wanted to make somebody else understand your world so they could make great decisions and you had a genuine interest and more empathy for someone else yeah so that's probably one of the best places i've seen to break that but it requires i think it's also reckon it's almost like particular people coming in to a business actually as well I was like what's the tone you set for new joiners to go this is how decisions get made or this is how things get done or this is how you progress rather than leaving it to people to figure out yeah I it's such an interesting point because I've worked in an environment where um you know you use the term parallel culture which I think is spot on I wish I'd actually thought about that when I was thinking of how to frame it um but I've worked in an environment where there was a bit of that, but it wasn't seeping through, as you said.

25:34And then we made one senior hire who came in from an environment that was quite political. And literally within months, the dynamic and the leadership structure changes. And it just showed you how quickly that sort of barrier can break through if the leadership don't hold the line. I think there's some really good points that you sort of both made around family and stakeout. I'm always a little bit wary as well as a thing family because families are like dysfunctional. And actually, I think a community is a better way to look at a business because people then are, there's a shared set of values that people have opted in to be a part of and sort of like work towards it.

26:17I think when we talk about performance management, which you've made and sort of incentives and getting along with people, naturally that you might have a different opinion of. You don't sort of, you know, one wouldn't necessarily work with based on personality types or this, you know, some sort of social tension there. One thing I don't think we're very good at with leaders in not just our industry, but I think across the corporate spectrum is developing behaviours and incentives that are both focused on building cooperation and collaboration and obviously collaborating towards a shared business goal.

26:54but by nature of some complexity people are individually focused on particular areas or incentives or teams and the dots need to be connected by the senior leaders as to how two different individual objectives work in benefit of each other and I don't think that that happens enough which then means everybody goes into a zero-sum game of like oh it's all or nothing for me rather than realizing yeah you have your individual objective but you also can benefit from helping someone else with their individual objective as well.

27:25Nishma Patel Robb:Do you think it's a connection that if you're really good at the politics, you're an arsehole, and if you're not good at politics, you're a good person? So I have met and worked with a few people who I think are good people in the sense of integrity and work with good intentions that have been able to navigate the politics. In my experience, and it's just a survey of one, they've always tended to be quite reluctant politicians if you know i mean again with your point around power of your culture a bit of this is just how it works and i will navigate this in the best interest of of uh everybody i think the the arsehole to your point there's people who actually relish that situation you know and that is quite a unique individual that i think is is generally quite dangerous to have uh in in your business so yeah i think it is possible um to sort of um be a nice person so to speak and know you have to kind of navigate it but i'm not sure those people particularly enjoy it before we move on to the next one i just it just made me think i was brought up by my mum telling me you need to learn to play the game and i was um i think i'm a generally nice person but that is what i heard all the way great you've got to learn to play the game and i don't know if that was a baby boomer as you know i don't know if that's still filtering through to the other generations but that's what i was told i had to do and it's like i've just got to play the game then and it was accepted that that was the norm so i think it is quite interesting like how generations of influence other generations of how you think you have to enter the workplace in the first place and maybe it's just a reality yeah actually maybe it is that it's just what you have to do you do have to play the game yeah it's just how you choose to play it to your point you know play with integrity and kindness and all this of it but you have to play it or you're a traitor yeah that's a great maybe every boardroom every leadership team should basically act like the traitors yeah do that game and see how you come out the other side you've got to write someone's name down and you're like sarah why did you do that i'm gonna try and create this as a workshop it's coming it's coming thank you so much natalie i'd love to know what would you like to banish okay so i would like to banish evasion and one phrase in particular from a leadership point of view is i don't like the phrase it's above my pay grade i think it drives the wrong culture and you You know, just to be clear, again, I'm not talking about the CEO, but I think within leadership, if you have had, you know, if you have responsibility and you have a team and, you know, I like to see the leaders feel like they can affect that.

29:59And I don't think they should avoid it. And I think, you know, we're in a difficult time, right, in our industry. Has everybody had a pay rise? Have, you know, people been giving huge bonuses? No. So just to be clear, if you feel like you are delivering above and beyond the level of your current job role, then absolutely go and talk to your line manager. Say, look, I think I, you know, I should we should look at this. I think that's different from being in a team environment and saying, actually, I'm not going to do that. That's above my pay grade. And I think it just drives a culture of avoidance.

30:34and I think again if you're a leader I do think you should be able to have the ability to lean in and I don't think great leaders are looking at job descriptions and I don't think it's good for our younger generation to always associate success and performance with pay I think you know we've got to work so hard because that's not necessarily coming easy at a time where our industry you know clients have got less budgets we know things are changing you know how do we make sure that the younger generation feel like they can be rewarded in ways which isn't actually can I check my job description I'm not paid to do that so I'm not going to do it so it's just it's it's a personal pet hate I mean I had a few things as well because if somebody says that to me and I haven't I actually haven't heard it for a long time but I really want to go why would you say that yeah why would you say that you know do you not like this job do you only want to do this job to a certain level you know because at the moment we're trying to encourage a growth mindset and ask everybody to go above and beyond um not in a toxic positivity way you know in a way where we can actually try and enable that to have growth so we can have a successful business and so people can have pay rises and we can release bonuses so it's just a pet hate and i think i've just i've just heard it more and more and more and I think it is a post-pandemic thing and I think it comes from you know perhaps again hybrid working people clock off at certain time you know is that where it's being revisited as this is my job this is what I get paid this is what I'm going to give oh no sorry that's above my pay grade I'm not going to do it um so I'm also curious if it's always related to pay because it is quite a passive aggressive term so it's above my pay grade especially depending on the tone or it's just above like you can't expect me to do this or I'm not willing to do this or I don't want to do this or I'm actually quite scared to do that so I'm just going to give you a passive aggressive response so I can get myself out of this because I don't know how to do it but I think if somebody said oh I'm not sure about that or should I be doing that or should somebody else be doing that great so that's a result let's have a conversation yeah great but a response of I'm not doing that that's above my pay grade it's got a tone to it which feels like it's what's interesting and i wonder also if this is some of the context is if someone's being asked to do something then it's probably because it's in their capability of experience to do so the interesting thing about that phrase is you can help but you're actively choosing not to because there is maybe some other like there's either a disconnection or some other sort of bargaining chip that you have you know you sort of mentioned it earlier on a sort of like a thing that seems to be happening more or more prevalent post-pandemic and it does feel that like there was a change in the sort of invisible contract not the one that you sign but like you know between the organization and the individual um which I don't think anyone really stopped to sort of address properly and go okay what do we need to modify or what do we need to sort of reset back to and there is just like a drift that's happening with people's attitudes and I think on both sides as well you know between the business and employees and employees in the business and their team um which is resulting probably in some of that i think interesting you say that we literally just revisited job descriptions at the beginning of this year just to realign because you know having honest conversations like when people say i'm doing this i'm doing this i'm doing this i'm doing this great you're doing your job brilliant there's your job description that's great let's have a conversation about something else and I think when was the last time anybody necessarily looked at that and you know perhaps if you recently had a new job that was part of your recruitment process but what if you've been in the business for five years it's changed within that time your role has changed your client set has changed you know has anyone actually sat down with you and made sure that there's clarity on that um so yeah I think revisiting some of those things and just making sure and you know I guess it's just nice isn't it I think if if you do want to grow and evolve and you get given some things that somebody sees you have the potential to be able to deliver on that you could do it would be great if you took it and I think if you don't feel comfortable you've got to have the environment just don't make it about your pay and don't make it about grade I think there's a bit of an attitude there isn't it's the attitude of the person

35:05Nishma Patel Robb:what's your thoughts on this I think I mean it's such an interesting the way you phrased it actually because when you first said it I thought about it as I've seen it very often at leadership just to evade responsibility you know it's like oh well I can't deal with that problem it's above my pay grade yeah yeah you know it's it's not wanting to take responsibility or accountability for something that maybe they don't have in their gift to solve but to push it back in that way is complete evasion. And I do think that's a problem. I think inevitably there are things that individual leaders can't solve.

35:39Nishma Patel Robb:But I think to bat it away in that way, it always felt really poor. I think it's way more important to say, look, I can't solve this individually, but I'm going to go and find out who can or this is the process, whatever. I think it's a very poor statement and does, that's again, it's that silencing thing. I think as an individual, it's interesting because I think there has been such a broken contract that you know and that's both sides so from pandemic it definitely set a new kind of setting of the way that we work and how we work but also to your point we haven't shifted back you know it's five years so long and we have transferred so much of that working style you know so people still complain about way too many meetings like they used to have when you're in the pandemic or what the purpose of it those blurred lines when people were stepping in and helping each other so I do I suppose I see it from both sides I see regularly people frustrated with saying hold on I did all this and I've had no reward whether that's pay promotion progression whatever it might be and so that's frustrating to think hold on I did all this and I got nothing at the end of it so there becomes a bit of a well I'm going to set my barriers and my boundaries so I'm not going to overstep that and I think from an expectation point of your businesses and leaders there's also been a challenge where it's the case of saying but you know hold on you were doing that for now you're not willing to yeah i and i hear you particularly when resources are tight and you're going well i can't reward you with more money so what else can i do i feel for me that that it's two ways i think there is definitely it's an easy way to get out but i think it sends a bigger message if someone says i'm not doing it because you know it's above my pay grade is they've probably got an issue with the way that things are grading and often it's more than that than the pay um and i think this sense of progression more than anything else has really frustrated people you know i know personally and i've talked to lots of other people as part of the glitter sphere and otherwise is how many people feel so stuck and when you feel so stuck i think that sense of going well this is i'm not going to do any more than that now and and that becomes really frustrating so i always think that if people are saying that it's digging into like why yeah red flag as well yeah and then as a business what more can be done to outside of pay what are the other rewards and i think that progression and learning and i actually your point about job descriptions is so true because businesses don't and and they do change you know it's so rare you go in and you do one thing and like one of the things we did lastly when i was at google i know it's a system they now have now is we evolved to a process of performance management which was all around expectations yeah so you know we always had these okrs but to make those okrs more personal knowing that job descriptions were shifting.

38:19Nishma Patel Robb:That's just a reality. I think in an AI world, they are shifting more and more. So now anyway, it was almost decoupling it to say, okay, this is broadly the family of jobs that you sit in. And there's some kind of overarching sense of this is what you do and this is what's on your broad job description. But then more specifically, you had a set of expectations and you'd write those with your manager. And those expectations very much like, you know, what am I going to do and deliver in this period of time? You know, what does good look like, et cetera? So there's a real sense of how to do it. I think that was great.

38:50Nishma Patel Robb:I think the failing is, is that when you do that and then there isn't something at the end of it, that's when it all falls apart. And I think obviously they're still correcting some of those systems, but I think it's that. And sometimes when you have these really broad categories of saying, well, if you do this, you're going to fall into this, literally performance grade, not your levelling. It's people go, well, hold on, I could do that amount of work and get there, or I could bust a gut and I'm still hitting the top of that band. and it means no different why aren't I going to coast yeah and I think it's those kind of in you know that motivation that's a real challenge because it is frustrating you know I think we probably all have generations where you just lent in and you did as much as you possibly did and I used to say to people you know rightly or wrongly you got promoted by doing the job you were going into for ages before you did it and I used to find it amazing that people go well I'm not doing that until I get promoted and I feel like what yeah yeah which is then kind of sometimes go hold on who had this wrong yeah was it i don't know if honest i don't know if i had it wrong or they had it wrong because i think it's probably a bit of both you know there's a willingness to do and show and demonstrate but there is also kind of like don't take the piss yeah i think some businesses have taken the piss and younger generations are so much better at setting those boundaries we know that so you know you want to be able to celebrate that but you want to get the tone right and the professionalism right in a being able to express um i guess when those boundaries have been broken or again like I said if you can clearly identify and also how you build those relationships with people from a leadership point of view perhaps when you do spend the majority of your time online with them versus being in office and having that you know in real life culture all of that stuff leads to perception doesn't it of individuals and how you kind of nurture them through that journey we have found the job description you know the relaunch of them really helpful i think it's really helped a load of people and also just given people a platform to go okay fine you know yeah i am really clear this is what i do for the business and actually here are some goals that i'm going to move to you know it's less you know performance process more about you know job evolution and i think that's better it's a way to sort of re-engage the employees because like too often employee engagement i think just falls into the survey tell us how you're feeling when actually where people want to be engaged is where they feel they're contributing value in their day-to-day and their sort of experience and a lot of that will come through asking people how they want to do their job differently or where they think they should be doing it as opposed to just evaluating their performance against the job description which they haven't really been involved in consulting or sort of crafting so I think there's a there's a really sort of interesting point there on how you can use that to most like re-motivate actually people who are sort of a bit disengaged.

41:39I think it's really interesting you said around the wording as well and like what it means to sort of dig into it because on the face of it you can think okay right let's have a conversation then about like recognition and sort of celebration and progression outside of salary or is that code for it's very hard to execute positive change in this business or this sort of complexity in it as you said it's like if you hear that as a leader the next question should be like what do you mean do you know what i mean yeah get clarity yeah and i think from listening to all of you the two things that are coming up for me is people seek clarity and then this is also a coaching opportunity as soon as someone says that you're like yeah there's something wrong here yeah let's not let's actually coach this and find out what do you mean what's going on let's look at what's set to give more clarity and also that sense of value

42:30Nishma Patel Robb:I always found that one of the key things is that if people weren't clear about what their contribution or their value was in a business, it's that human need to feel valued and have some degree of contribution or purpose around what you're doing. I think when that erodes or is unclear to your point around the clarity, I think that also causes an issue. You start feeling that frustration. What do I do? What am I valued for? On that note, we are going to need to now go to closing statements. so you're ready you've literally got top line closing statements for me to make my decision which one is going to go into leadership room 101 and i will start with yourself nishma so i would love to see those masking statements to go into room 101 the leadership room 101 and i'd love to see real leadership kind of step up the ones as we said you know this is hard let's acknowledge it and recognize that things might not be okay and that's the kind of positivity we need nice thank you it's over to you yeah so i'd love to see the organizational politics or the parallel culture as uh nishima put it going into room 101 because it actually detracts from the core focus of the business creates a horrible environment for employees um and just breeds the wrong type of leaders yeah really nice and natalie i would like to banish evasion in leadership room 101 and change the terminology used of it's above my pay grade and recognize that that could be a red flag to have to dig into individuals work out what they're giving do we need to look at the culture and I think it should never be said ever again nice this is actually a challenging one because I'm a bit torn because like my brain's going if I eliminate that could it help remove the other two so I'm trying to think what's the bigger picture and I'm going to go with my instinct although I keep batting back i am going to go with toxic positivity the reason why i'm going is i'm thinking if we could get rid of toxic positivity we could actually maybe remove some of the office politics because people would feel more comfortable saying that's not on we need to talk about it let's stop pretending everything's okay or this behavior is okay and i actually think those would eliminate the pay grade issue because the culture would be more better when we could deal with these negative situations better because people could say you know i'm not feeling okay being asked to do that versus needing to say that's above my pay grade very nice you've connected them all together i was trying to think if i solved that would it go there so nishma thank you toxic positivity is going in today's leadership room 101 let's give a round of applause thank you all so much that was such an interesting conversation and my brain's now ticking ticking with ideas especially how to do a traitor's workshop with leadership thank you so much for your time and thank you to everyone from watching take care and i'll see you next week If you've been enjoying the Courageous Leaders podcast, we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our YouTube channel.

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