What Change Really Demands From a CEO with Simon Cook

0:00If you're feeling the pace of change and wondering how to keep your team steady, you're not alone. That's exactly why I brought Simon Cook, CEO of CanLions, onto the podcast. We get into what it actually takes to lead with conviction when the ground keeps moving and how to keep your people coordinated without slipping into chaos or control. In the world we're in now, this is a conversation that genuinely helps you lead braver. Simon, welcome to the show. We've got a big theme today about change, but what I'd like to start with is to know where have you had the courage to change are you going in there with a big one I don't start soft don't mess around where have I had the courage to change um perhaps we can get into it but I'm I'm a leader who tries to lead with conviction and the things that I really believe in and I think sometimes what can come with conviction if it's a strength you know I believe that strengths are often your biggest weaknesses as well if you're willing to look at them in that way and I guess the flip side of having real conviction and belief in what you do is that you can drift into a tendency sometimes to walk into a room or a meeting or a brainstorm or whatever it may be almost knowing the answer or what you want the outcome to be and it becomes theatrical rather than meaningful and I've certainly had to learn the hard way that there is so much more value to leaning into conversations with others bringing other voices into the room having other perspectives and being open to the idea that your idea might not be the best and that although you had that conviction your mind can be changed and often for the better.

1:53Just curious. So what do you think there was in a touch of arrogance in terms of, was it, or you just were like, I just know that's the right answer. I haven't got the time to listen to everybody else. We just need to move. Yeah. What was it that you were going, like you just knew that you were right or thought you were right? That's a great question. I think because I'm a naturally very thoughtful person, I will have done a lot of deep thinking to get to the idea that I ultimately believe in. and so for that to be challenged or for there to be an alternative you know I'm going back a bit now I've involved since then so yesterday's meeting so yeah this morning was a little bit foreign to me but um yeah as I say it's it's being open to the idea that your mind can be changed and that someone else will and often do have the better idea or at least can add input and value to the conversation it'll take it in a completely different direction and that's okay do you think that links with that having needed to have control yes absolutely absolutely and how has that control helped you or not helped you in terms of navigate change because most people majority of leaders i work with myself included have control patterns it keeps us safe yeah so when we think about needing to change within ourselves and i know you've been to a lot of change within the company how have you had what's that relationship with control been like I think when I joined Lions and certainly when I started leading it it was a much smaller company with big implications attached to all of our actions it's also a very public company and so I've always been a leader that has been across the strategy but been quite deep in the detail because there are a lot of details a lot of moving parts that make up Can Lions the festival but also lines the business.

3:43And so I think relinquishing that control to the leadership team that I've built has definitely been a journey. And it's been a great one. We've landed up in a really good place where people are trusted and a lot of these people are far smarter and much better than I am. And that took an evolution to get there. And for me, that's a courageous place to get to as well, to actually openly say, do you know what, I've built a team and I'm okay that they're smarter than me or know things better than me. I'd say the best leaders I've worked with are the ones that can omit that and see that and have purposely put people in those positions because of that.

4:21Unfortunately, you still see a lot of people so fearful of doing that because then they're worried about them not being relevant or letting go. Yeah. So in terms of what did it feel like to let go of that control? Like, was it comfortable? Was it difficult? Did you make mistakes along the way? I think it's scary but necessary because it's unfamiliar to begin with. And I think where leaders run into problems is where they do it in a performative way, you know, where they give that control to someone else and relinquish something, but then still have a tendency to check in or to not really give up full control.

5:05And I think that's what you've got to do with your trusted parties and people that you've chosen to put in place. Is say, do you know what? This is yours. I trust you. It might not go the right way. And if it doesn't, that's okay as well. I love that because literally the words now flashing in my head is failure. Failure, exactly. Our complex relationship with failure. And I know you've got a view on failure. I'd love to hear it. Well, we talked about this before. I think it's been really interesting to see the narrative evolve with failure in our industry. It became very en vogue for a while.

5:42I'm thinking sort of five years ago to say we should wear our failures with pride. And there is something in that. Like I'll be the first to give people a guided tour of the graveyard of ideas and innovations and things that haven't gone well or come to fruition at Lyons. I think that's important. It recognizes how we got to where we are. But I do think when people say, and I've heard people say this in talks, well, we put a line in our budgets for failure. And, you know, that makes me think, what a terrible idea. Why would you do that? Because we shouldn't be backing the things that we don't believe in or we don't believe can win.

6:22And I think putting a line for failure in a budget gives you a get out. Yeah. There's a lack of accountability if you're expecting something to fail. But I think if you lead with conviction and there's a level of coordination there and you have a system that you can rely on that's going to get you from A to B, if it is a new innovation, then hopefully it wins. But if not, then move on quickly. And if something doesn't go the way you want it to, redirect people's energies really quickly. And that's definitely been an evolution in my leadership as well. And don't beat yourself up for too long. Don't beat yourself up for too long.

7:04And don't flog a dead horse. Yeah. Like make sure you identify if something isn't working and move quickly if it's not. I see a lot of leaders have this need to be right. So they hang on, hang on because they just didn't want their idea to be wrong. And it's like, as you said, it's a freedom of letting go and moving on. You said something really lovely there in the relationship between conviction and coordination. and I remember when we were talking because it's this power of conviction and I remember you said coordination you're like is that right the word coordination and we both worked it through and went actually it is because if we don't have systems and structures and clarity of what we're doing no amount of conviction is going to move you forward how have those two things really played out in your leadership especially with all the change you've had it's such an important one and And it hasn't always been there, that partnership.

7:54You know, sometimes we're guilty of leading just with conviction. And, you know, it takes us back to the name of the podcast. You know, if we think about courage, it suggests that we are tackling something we're afraid of or the unknown. And I think that the wonderful thing about the unknown is that it's not yet defined. It's not yet shaped. And we sometimes forget as leaders, but humans as well, that we can play an active role in shaping that. which is very powerful. But I think if you run at it with conviction, that's a good first step. But I think just walking around with tons of conviction and no action means you are someone who is just talking the talk.

8:36In order to walk the walk, you have to marry that thing you believe in with a system, with coordination. And then if you want success over time, I'll give you another C. Go on. consistency yeah you know because otherwise you are flashing the pan and it's the difference between a one-off idea where you've believed in something and perhaps fumbled to get there but it's only when you're able to replicate that you're able to to achieve that level of consistency that leads to continued success so it's those three things working tightly in unison I would say I think it's just so powerful and it was just a I went to an AI summit yesterday and the big thing that came out of it, there's people got lots of conviction going, just go and play with the tools.

9:22We need AI. And everyone went, we've got no coordination. We don't know what problem we're trying to get this AI to solve in our business. So we're losing so much energy and time because we're just playing with tools that we have no idea what we're hoping they're going to do for us. So yeah. And do you know what? We really saw that play out in some of the winning work this year at the festival. You know, we were all expecting to see the presence of AI in the work in a meaningful way for the first time. But actually what we saw was AI for the sake of AI. And I think it'll only be from next year that we'll start to see it acting in service to the idea and the creative.

9:59So that'll be good to see. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode.

10:33Can you just talk us through briefly, just the people who might not know the change you've had with Essential and Proforma. And then what I'm really keen to have is from a CEO's perspective, how you navigated that? Because how many people were in, like you kind of reporting, not reporting into you, but how big was the company that you were needing to navigate this change with? So across lines, which includes Contagious and Walk and Acuity Pricing and Effie, the latest addition to our family, that's roughly about 500 people. That's a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people. And then what if you look back and reflect, what was kind of some significant moments when you were like, wow, that was a key learning of how you help people navigate change and a key learning where you go, oh, I wouldn't do that again.

11:26um again i think it comes back to conviction and coordination yeah you might be able to stand up in front of a business and say this is what we're doing in terms of integration or acquisition because we've recently been bought by a much bigger company but you have to have a plan you have to have a winning formula to get there and sometimes it doesn't work and i think holding your hands up and being able to say we're doing great in this area here's an area just so you know we're aware of that needs shaping and that needs work and we're going to need your help to get there as well it's really important to offer that balance in order to uh to generate more confidence from the people who are looking up to you yeah when does your and i don't know if it does i'm making an assumption here but when would your confidence get knocked or you get quite nervous when you're like, do you know what I mean?

12:18I've got to give a message to all this company, give them lots of certainty. But actually, I'm just feeling quite uncertain and unsure within myself. Does that happen? Yes, but I think as part of being a leader, and this only comes through experience, being comfortable with ambiguity is really important. Not just for being able to juggle multiple truths or multiple scenarios simultaneously, but for your own sake you know there is a resilience that you have to build otherwise it's terrible for your mental health if you feel like you don't have certainty that getting comfortable with uncertainty is taking time.

13:01Any tips you can share because there's a lot of people listening to this in a very uncertain place right now what would you say has helped you build that in you? I think and it takes time and investment but really going quite deep into the different scenarios that could play out so that you have quite a clear understanding of where you're going given the things that are outside of your control and I think also accepting that some things are outside of your control there is no point worrying about the things that you have no influence over really yeah and that narrows the number of scenarios that you can then actively address and there will be some scenarios that you really like the sound of and some that you're feeling less confident in but again often those decisions are outside of your control as well so it's it's about building a confidence picture um rather than just sitting there in your discomfort thinking i've got no idea what's going on freaking out and catastrophizing and stuff yeah because you've got you know we've spoken a couple of times you've got a really lovely kind of calm grounded persona about yourself so i can imagine if i was working like for you and sitting with her, I'd be like, okay, cool.

14:15We're okay. Cause you just, your whole body language is very grounded and calm. Has that always been, or is that something you've learned to be able to do? Or are you even aware that you have it? I think I've always had that to a degree and it's definitely been sharpened in recent years because obviously leading a large business, you come up against some, some pretty meaty challenges and staying calm and presenting calm is important I think you know if you're running around like a headless chicken you might be feeling that way and sometimes it's good to show people that you are feeling that yeah but it's not very productive no it's a one thing as leaders which I've learned over the years is you've got to preserve your energy yes because so many people are looking at you and needing you and if you haven't looked after yourself how can you show up for them now i know because i i've seen like i've been worked with some of your team yes and you know anyone going through change and there's as we know we'll get to it the industry is changing a lot and also we had the big omnicom news this week of lots of mergers and things happening when your team went through it and you saw you know people having to work with people they'd never worked with before trying to work out what their identities are now how do they come together what do you think was critical in terms of how you showed up for them but what did you realize that if you could do it again i'm changing the question if you could do it again what would you do differently from what you learned about bringing about everyone coming all together and i know you had a high amount of workload at that time people were trying to work out how do i work with this person now where do we fit what did you learn that you go do you know if i went through this again this is what i would differently?

16:04I think you can't underestimate how much people care about their own businesses and brands that they work for. And, you know, even part of our acquisition criteria is really bringing in businesses where the brand is incredibly strong and distinctive. And that goes deep into the culture of each business and really respecting that and honoring that and giving space for that and the time for people to accept that they are not losing their culture but having to either evolve it or adapt it in order to fit in with a new bigger culture is really hard and just giving people the time and space to be able to talk through that and work with you on how that's going to work in practice is really important.

16:54Did you have some really tough decisions to make? Always. I think there are always difficult decisions to make when you're either acquiring a business or even being acquired. You have to be really conscious about what you're going to leave behind, what you're going to protect fiercely and take with you. But also to be really proactive. And I think you have to be proactive in order for it to work about how you're going to lean in and how you're going to compromise. Because there always has to be a compromise in order for it to be a success. Yeah. And how have you had to evolve your leadership in terms of, you know, with the change?

17:32How have you noticed you've changed with it? I think the biggest shift is around your own time as a leader and where you spend it. Certainly in the last few months, even, you know, my time has been stretched in different ways and learning to adapt and move away from your winning formulas to create new ones is is a challenge but it's also it's a great learning exercise and you know sometimes as leaders you get to a point in your career where you ask am I still learning yes and that's so important to to people but especially to me yeah and it's it's good to be conscious of that and remember it because sometimes it feels a bit uncomfortable but to reframe it as learning is important you have to i'm seeing so many leaders just getting stuck especially with where we're going into the future for me i've got a really true belief it's going to be the leaders who are willing to have courage and are willing to step into the unknown are going to succeed anyone who's going to be too rigid in their thinking right now or want things to stay the same are going to be well they're going to have a really hard time i think really hard time and it is going to be uncomfortable but i think there's going to be very rewarding as well because you say the growth you have as a person will be huge now we've got a lot of change going on in the industry i'd really like to see what's your perspective of what you're seeing happening and i don't know where you can responsibility is and to be able to help yeah that's interesting i think um there's a lot going on as we're seeing play out in the the trade headlines at the moment and there's a bit of an unfreeze happening you know we've worked in a in a very structured rigid way for a very long time and there are lots of shifts taking place and I think it'll it'll probably be quite a while before things settle again and that creates a lot of uncertainty for people and as you say I think it's the people that really embrace the change that will that will thrive yeah those who want it to go backwards at this point it ain't gonna happen no are you surprised by some of the things you're seeing happen?

19:42No, I don't think so. I think if you take Holdco consolidation as an example, that's been happening for a number of years now. And we've had to adjust our own business in order to think about that. But at this scale, it's quite unprecedented. It's quite seismic, actually, for our industry. And to your question on Lions' role within that, I think that works on two levels. We definitely in the last few years tried to be an organization where we are providing our customers with the tools and the data and the evidence that they need to give them confidence in what they do every day, but also to connect marketing to the boardroom.

20:26You know, so they're able to make the case for creativity and get the investment they need to put behind marketing in the first place. But I think that there's a more philosophical, I should say, side to that, which is we've always been in an organization that prioritizes innovation. It's been a big part of our DNA. We know we have to evolve all the time because things are changing all the time. But we're also a heritage brand. so we've tried to honor our legacy and where we've come from over the last 70 years but also you know try and give a glimpse into the future when people come to Cannes it's to recognize the work that's been put into the world but hopefully also get a sense of where the industry might be going and I think we have an opportunity and perhaps to use your word a responsibility to to change the dial yeah and actually lean more into shaping and helping to define what comes next and where we're going, as well as something that is deeply rooted in legacy.

21:29And I remember when we spoke before, you said you're quite a gut instinct led leader. Yes. So if I was to say to you, your gut instinct of the future right now, what do you think that is? Of the industry? The industry, yeah. I think the industry, one thing is certain, it won't stop changing or evolving. No. And we've seen that in certainly in the tenure of Can Lions over the past 70 years. but I think it's going to be a challenging time over the next few years for people while things settle I do think we're going to see a rise in indies coming through I think there are a lot of there's going to be a lot of talent in the market yeah who will decide to do their own thing or move within other organizations whether that be tech or brands different types of organization And I hope when that happens, we'll see a really positive flurry of work coming through.

22:24I think it'll be really interesting to see the diversity of work that bubbles up and gets celebrated on the global stage. And hopefully that will be very inspiring for the next wave of creatives coming through to be able to see what's possible because different creative infrastructure is being used to support it. So it could reignite creativity. I think so. yeah it has the possibility to yes i'm just thinking because a lot of the bigger agencies we can get quite trapped in working a certain way doing a certain level of ideas but i say these some of these indies come through and we start challenging what creativity could be and we're using the new tech that could be quite exciting i think it's it's always exciting for good or for bad when there is some kind of constraint you know sometimes people refer to it as a beautiful constraint yeah um it forces us as humans to be even more inventive and innovative and creative so it will be really interesting to see how this new breed of agencies that will start to come through in the next few months uh what approaches they'll take how they'll harness technology to your point um how they will redefine models and ways of working so i think it's incredibly exciting time and it and i just hope we jump on it because i was speaking to someone yesterday about going you know i think i last time i was in an agency is anywhere between eight to ten years ago and i could open my files from that time and it would be exactly the same problems in agencies today they're working in exactly the same way not much has evolved we haven't really changed or improved the pitching system we're still complaining about the same things what do you think what if you were sitting listening to this as a ceo of an agency what is one or two bits advice you would give to go you've got to start doing this differently you've got to you've got to break the rules and start again what would you give them i think there is i'll go the other way i think sometimes there is a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water you know in moments like this and the pandemic was quite similar in that respect great moments of disruption there are companies that decide to rip it all up and start again um there are some that freeze and through paralysis and fear do nothing and i think the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle it's about knowing what to protect and take with you and certainly you should make sure you are protecting your brand and your values, making sure that they stand true no matter what the infrastructure around it looks like.

25:04But I think if you do not jump on the opportunity to change and evolve at times like this, you will unfortunately get left behind. Yeah. So you've just been willing to look at it differently. Protect the things that matter, embrace the future and experiment. experiment yeah you mentioned their values how important values are and i really think that where they used to be something on a wall for companies they are actually really becoming the anchor now that's like uniting people has there been a time and i'm putting you on the spot with this one where you've needed to make a business decision but it's gone against and you had to do it you had no choice but it's actually gone against one of your personal values have you ever had that rub yeah i definitely i think because one of my personal values is around uh fairness okay and that gets challenged when i have a level of a cognitive dissonance going on where the thing that you feel you have to do is at odds with perhaps your own values or how you feel about it And that's very difficult to navigate.

26:13How do you process it? I try not to do it very often. Yeah, can't avoid it. I'll try to avoid it at all costs, actually, Jo. Yeah, I'll push back. But sometimes it's out of your control. And so I think it's how you lean upon your other values to make the best of that situation. But ideally, you would push back to an extent where you're not having to challenge your values in the first place. And that's where sometimes you just either, and that's when you come into choice. You either have to choose then not to be part of what's going on or accept that this is one of those situations that you don't have the influence in.

26:47Yeah, you can continue agonizing about it. Yeah. Or you can accept that it's out of your control. Yeah. That you are the person who perhaps has to deliver the bad news or carry out the process. But lean on your humanity. So do it nicely. And own it as a privilege in a way. Do it in a way that perhaps others wouldn't. That's nice. That's fair. What would be people listening or watching? What would surprise them to know about you that they maybe aren't aware of? I don't know if they find it surprising, but I think because the business, the brand, the role is quite public at times, especially something like Cannes Lions, where I'm on stage a lot, giving lots of speeches.

27:34It is, yeah, it's a very active week for me, but it takes a lot of energy from me. As someone who is a bit of an ambivert or perhaps leaning more towards introvert, I'm certainly not the guy that is staying up till two o 'clock in the morning socializing. You know, I need to be in a dark room to recover and recharge for the next day. I love it. I absolutely love it. but I'm someone that needs to recharge in order to be at my best the next day. That's exactly the same. Are you? Yeah, and I see my friends and they all carry on partying. I'm like, I don't know how you do it. I just don't know how you do it.

28:15What do you do? So before you go on stage, do you have any little mantras or little talks with yourself or power poses? Do you have anything that just helps you go on stage and be your best? I think breathing is really important. you know sometimes in those very high octane environments you can forget to just be conscious of your breath yeah and to breathe yeah um but also um every night at the the can lines award shows because we have Ron because the judging is live and takes place at the festival so there's an award show every night um I give the opening speech and I make the time on my own just to make sure I'm completely familiar with that and actually I tend to I give a lot of speeches anyway so it's it's not actually about rehearsing the words it's about taking the time to just be silent and present and focusing on a singular thing rather than the chaos that's going on around me yeah and it's usually in the car when I'm going back to my hotel to get changed that's good advice though isn't it just having that moment of time out it's like even like before we recorded this, I said to my husband, I just need to go somewhere calm, have breakfast in a really calm place, a nice calm coffee.

29:25And yeah, it's just taking that moment for yourself. I see so many leaders, they'll go and do that off the back of a meter that they've just run out of and they're running here and it's just like, you're not going to be able to give your best. No, no, no. And then you go home and you beat yourself up and then that's taking more energy out of you and it's just like, put some steps in to just make life a bit easier. It doesn't have to be hours. It can be a micro moment, but just where you're only focusing on just a singular task or laser focus exactly laser focus i like and breaking things down into small things yes just a quick reminder if you haven't already to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel it's a small action that makes a big difference you'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you i'd also love to hear from you so if you have any thoughts questions or ideas pop them into the comments and if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team just drop me a dm and we'll set up a call thanks so much now let's get back to the episode going forward where do you want to be more courageous in your leadership big question uh i think the first part is more linked to the role and we've touched upon it i think we can be much more courageous in helping to lead the way.

30:44And that's really exciting and energising. And then I think because there is so much happening in the industry, there's so much happening within our organisation at the moment, being more courageous in how I spend my time and more courageous in how we advise our leaders to spend their time. The wonderful thing about lions and can lions especially is the number of opportunities that come our way there's temptation to want to engage with and get involved with everything because it's terribly exciting yeah the discipline comes from helping our leaders and our people be incredibly focused on a few things and doing them exceptionally well you know one of our values is around excellence you can only achieve that if you're not being spread too thinly so i think we need to be much more courageous going forward just because things are in flux at the moment about being much more disciplined with our time and i would say it's one of the hardest things to do being a business owner myself and the teams that i work with the one thing that always comes up we don't have time yeah i'd love to do that but we don't have time and unfortunately this time barrier and this time perception is costing business and leaders so much because we don't know how to say no yeah we're not very good at focusing not very good at prioritizing and what's that lovely saying is we overestimate what we can do in a year and underestimate what we can do in 10 so we've we have this such short-term vision of we've got to get all this done in a year and then before we know we're going oh my god it's christmas again how we've done that but we're not really thinking actually where we're trying to be in for 10 years is probably in this world now crazy probably like three or five and having a bit more of a longer term ambition view to go what could you if we really focus think about where we'd be in three years versus again i was working with a company recently it's so quarterly by this quarter but and they've got such a quarterly approach that they're just on a hamster wheel of a quarterly approach versus thinking actually where are we trying to really be?

32:55So what decisions would we make today if that's what we're really aiming for and having that slightly longer term vision? So what do you think, if you know this is something, because I hear all leaders talk about it, I want to be better with my time. What are you actually going to do to make that possible? I think you have to give your leaders permission to say no. Okay. Perhaps not a hard no. Not everything. No, perhaps not that. But to start introducing a language around trade-offs. That's nice. So I can do that for you, but here's what I'm going to have to deprioritise.

33:34And, you know, I think sometimes organisations get into a habit of incremental creep, where you'll say, can I just grab half an hour on that with you? Can we have a brainstorm about this? And ideas just come in, let's have a workshop, because it's, you know, it's really exciting. it's dynamic and it's fun but i think being much more realistic about the compounding effect of that yeah you know so it's it's taking the time as leaders to zoom out and say yes that is fun and exciting and and and great and it's something we should think about at some point but if we zoom out what is the compounding effect of spending time on this versus the things that are going to help us achieve our mission and i'm super curious you must get invited to oh can i just have a coffee with you can we just say this it'd be great because i'm sure lots of people want to get on your radar how do you navigate saying no to that oh could we just have a quick coffee and people just want to never catch up how do you navigate that because that right that is one i'm asking because i have trouble myself i think it's about being um and this word sounds a bit harsh but ruthless with your priorities um but also having the emotional intelligence to read between the lines so it's balancing well how does this fit with the things that I am committed to achieving this day this week this year yeah but also I can sense that this person might need my help I can see they might be struggling I can see that there are things being unsaid here that I need to address and I think it's a combination of those two factors because you know someone might be bringing you something that isn't on your priority list, but you have to trust your gut and elevate it.

35:19The way it needs to go. How much do you think emotional intelligence has helped you get where you are today? 90%. Absolutely. Yeah. How often you coming across leaders who don't have a strong emotional intelligence? I mean, I'm coming across increasingly fewer. Good. Because I don't think you can be an effective successful leader today and tomorrow if you're not able to balance the two yeah because because of the great deal of uncertainty that we're all experiencing and what comes with that is is a need or an ability to galvanize people and that doesn't come from purely being directive or a hundred percent business focused you've got to be able to connect yeah you've got to be and feel human yeah yeah and be okay to be vulnerable to say actually i'm finding this hard too yeah and i don't have all the answers which isn't easy to do no it's not it comes back to failure again you don't always want to put up your hands and say this isn't going well is there an instance or a story where you did need to put up your hands that you can share and it was a tough one we probably don't have time but i would give you that tour of the graveyard of failures there's lots is there so many examples on a you know big and small level but I think the um the common behavior has to be the same in the way you address it which is to to act quickly to lean into it to be honest about what isn't working you know we have a tendency sometimes to take our failures and put them in a drawer when no one can see them so you know don't plan for failure but don't be ashamed of it learn from it learn from it yeah and make that a collective learning not just something in your head so keeping the learning theme here if we were to think about your future self give me a minute to picture that where you are a bit grayer bit grayer still in some trendy outfits still rocking it um what advice what learning would they like to share with you right now hopefully it's aligned with with what you what you asked about being more courageous in the present today which would be be bolder about what you can achieve within the role and the responsibility that you have especially when you're serving in an industry yeah and to protect your time and I think that goes for the professional and the personal you know make sure that you're you're fighting fit up here to to be great at what you do every day in a professional setting

37:56and we acknowledge that a lot but I don't think we always act on it No, it's true I think the awareness is a lot higher I'm not seeing as much implementation I was in a room with 50 women yesterday and doing a talk on the courage to be you and I asked actually can I just see a show of hands of who here has got a really good self-care routine one person put their hand up I was like this is so sad and you could just see all of them are just working to the grind and not looking after themselves at all. And when you said being mentally fit, we're not going to navigate uncertainty if we're not mentally fit.

38:32And I think sometimes we'll prioritize going to the gym and keeping our body fit, but we're not doing enough to keep ourselves mentally fit. And the word that I'm really taking away from here as well is responsibility. There is, I had a leader recently say to me, well, I just didn't have time. I didn't think to do that. And I'm like, well, it's your personal responsibility. You didn't have to be a leader. It is a choice to be a leader and it comes with a level of duty of care. Duty of care to yourself to show up, but a duty of care within how you look after your time to show up for your people.

39:03Because your people are a reflection of you. And if they're running around like crazy, you've got to put the mirror up to yourself first. So I think that's such a lovely message from you. It's going to like mentally fit, manage your time and have responsibility with that. I think that's beautifully summarized. Boom. there we go can't drop the mic because it's on a boom it's on a boom is there anything we've missed that you'd like to or anything message you'd like to reinforce no I think we've done a lovely job of covering it all there thank you Jo brilliant thank you so much for giving us your precious time because this is you know time is I think the thing we do all need to treasure while going into 2026 but to give you your time to help the people listening and watching this and to just to help the courage and leadership that we need going into 2026 and all the work you're doing with Lions just a big thank you and for everyone listening and watching we will see you soon if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact we fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you thank you for being part of the journey