What happens when imposter syndrome holds you back? - with Carly Aveneer

0:00To be a leader you do need to be vulnerable. Showing people the humanity behind the leader is a way to really build trust. As CEO of Leo UK, Carly Avenger is redefining leadership in the creative industry, building a culture where brilliant creative work and people thrive together. We live in a world now where we are surrounded by people opening up in all different sorts of ways. I think there's just much more acceptance that that is quite a healthy thing to do. How has anxiety been a friend or an enemy to you as you've grown? I definitely have lots of anxieties about lots of things and I work really, really hard to make sure that it doesn't take on a life of its own and overwhelm me.

0:47Has it ever got out of control? Hello and welcome back to the Courageous Leaders podcast. I am very, very excited. We have the amazing Carly on the show today. Welcome to the show, Carly. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. Oh, it's lovely. And I've already just done loads of your fashion of what you're wearing. So we're definitely going to shout out. Yes, yes. Shout out to Florea, brilliant brand that's been set up by two friends of mine, Stockton John Lewis, available online as well. I love it. We never go straight to an ad, but I love it. I've been literally, as soon as you walked in, I was just wearing everything you're wearing.

1:19But we'll do a shout out for your jeans a bit later because I'd love to know what has been that courageous moment for you? Yeah, I think probably when I became CEO at Leo, which is the agency that I work for, I'd actually been there for a few years already. I'd started as MD and I'd been sort of at the agency for a few years and part of the team that had been kind of turning the agency around and growing it and winning more clients. So I didn't feel like it was the right moment to sort of introduce myself and talk to everyone about how I was going to change the strategy for the agency because it was going well.

1:59And really, it was a continuation of that. But at the same time, I wanted to kind of mark the moment of becoming CEO and help people understand what that would mean for them because it wasn't going to be a change of strategy. but obviously it would be a different era of leadership because I was a different person in that position so I decided to get really vulnerable and be really honest with people and tell them a bit more about me as a person and my journey and my story and how I'd become CEO and I wanted them to understand the things about me that they wouldn't necessarily have known from just sort of working with me or looking at me.

2:40So things like my background, my family's background, I was the first person in my family to go to university. I am a single parent, those kind of things that I don't think people would necessarily have have known about me. And I wanted people to know that because we have we're making such great strides in making our industry and our workplace is so much more diverse people are coming into the industry from so many different backgrounds and they don't necessarily see people that share any of their life stories or experiences on the surface and I wanted people to know that whoever you are whatever your background whatever education you've had or haven't had it doesn't matter it's about you and how hard you work and your you know ambition and how smart you are so it but it was quite a vulnerable moment and I talked about things like having had real imposter syndrome along the way crippling imposter syndrome actually that definitely held me back in my career and I then went public with that more broadly outside of the agency and I think that was quite a brave moment because it is vulnerable to talk about having not a lot of confidence at certain points in your career but it really resonated with people and um yeah so I'm curious when you're first of all just very quickly how did you feel going up there knowing you were about to tell this story how did you feel inside I think I was you know I felt vulnerable but I was you know I'm proud of my story because it shaped who I am and it's helped me get to where I've got to so um and it's something that I haven't ever hidden from anyone and you know people that know me more kind of intimately know those things about me it's nothing I've ever hidden but um I felt excited because I knew that there were people in the agency that um needed to hear that in a way they needed to see you yeah not just not just like the finished article the kind of the ceo um you know turning up in her nice outfit and shiny hair but actually the the journey because i didn't start out like that of course i didn't but people don't always know that or think that and this is half the reason we do half the reason the reason why we do the podcast right is to help see the people's journey so people who think maybe they can't be a leader or can't get these like no you can we all have different journeys and ways of doing it yeah what did you see as the impact of everyone because obviously they knew you yeah they'd worked with you for a while and obviously they're now seeing more of you what was the impact in the audience hearing that hearing that from you because I'm guessing they weren't expecting that no I don't think they were and I think um I think there was just almost like a moment of it was quite a powerful moment actually and I think there was a real moment of like connection in a way obviously there were lots of people there but I think to be a leader you do need to be vulnerable to a degree and obviously everyone's vulnerabilities are different and everyone has different levels of comfort over how much they share um but I think showing people the humanity behind the leader um is a way to really build trust um and yeah I think that's that's what it felt like afterwards you can imagine you could feel that energy in the room yeah and it's so much like patrick liasoni's work is the whole goal is with that trust is to build a vulnerability-based trust yeah we can't have just transactional trust oh i know you can do your job i'll trust you but actually if i don't know who you are and i don't really understand your character yeah how can we have that really vulnerability-based trust yeah and that for any leader listening that's the goal to be aiming for and it's just so nice that for you to share this because i work with a lot of CEOs and that thing of I know but I can't be vulnerable that's weak and sometimes the age that people are CEOs they were brought up that vulnerability is a weakness yeah have you come across that in any of your leadership team or leaders you've worked with there like I can't can't believe you did that I don't know I think everyone um I think everyone was really supportive and I think it helped everyone else to open up as well um and not everyone is as comfortable with that um as i am and and obviously it's everyone's prerogative how much they want to share um but no i think i think we live in a world now where we are surrounded by people opening up in all different sorts of ways and um i think there's just much more acceptance that that is quite a healthy thing to do just a quick reminder if you haven't already to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel.

7:33It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. So you mentioned that one of the things you've openly spoken about, which, you know, is definitely a courageous moment going out there with your imposter syndrome story and how that has affected you.

8:08Because we know it affects so many. And we've got people that have lots of different views on how they see imposter syndrome. What did it mean to you? And what did it cost you and how did you get to where you are now? So I think ultimately I had been holding myself back from opportunities, from putting myself out there, from taking risks because I didn't have enough confidence in my ability and my capability because I worked in a very high performing culture and an agency that I absolutely loved and I had so much admiration and respect for the leaders of that business and I just thought I'll never be as smart as that I'd never be able to stand up in front of a company and talk to people I'd never have that idea I was comparing myself to them the whole time and you know unsurprisingly I'm not the same as anyone else none of us are we're all unique but rather than having real belief and even an understanding of what my strengths were I was just constantly comparing and falling short so I just kind of held myself back and I was doing okay but I definitely wasn't the person putting my hand up for every opportunity and putting myself um pushing myself outside of my comfort zone and in a way I was forced to kind of address it because my confidence just really plummeted for whatever reason you know I was in a very competitive environment and I just couldn't hack it anymore and you know it really started to affect me um not sleeping very well just really not functioning and not feeling happy and not feeling myself um and thankfully I can look back and say that now thankfully it got so bad that I had to kind of ask for help because I just thought this isn't right the way I'm feeling um and luckily you know I was really well supported and I was given you know more support in the job that I was doing but also a coach and that was the first time I'd ever had coaching and through that process um my coach helped me to unravel these beliefs about myself and make me see that actually they were completely self-imposed and I did have the support and the confidence of those brilliant leaders that I looked up to because they were promoting me and I'd been working there for 10 years or so and the evidence suggested that they had belief in myself and why didn't I have belief in myself and through that process I gradually was able to kind of take down the barriers that I built for myself yeah so as we start to change that story yeah of how you're talking to yourself yeah and it works we on our call that we met before it was interesting when you're saying that you were actually very confident at school yeah it was something that changed in the workplace yeah that led to this because a lot of people that they've been say low confidence from school and they take that into the workplace yeah so I think what's interesting in your story actually someone who was actually quite naturally confident can still lose their confidence when they in in a situation yes I mean the world of work is you know very very different to the school environment where you're essentially with people your own age and you know it's very supportive and nurturing work certainly when I first started working 20 years ago wasn't like that it was you know full of lots of what who's seemingly confident capable um people that knew exactly what they were doing whereas I had no clue um um just the etiquette of the office even you know it was all just a complete and utter mystery to me so I think just over time that I just you know I found everything everyone and everything very intimidating and for whatever reason started to lose confidence and I didn't you know I didn't necessarily realize it and you know I was still out there doing you know doing well but I guess inside um I didn't believe in myself as much as I should have done yeah and it's so sad because so many people are walking around like that so and holding themselves back and yeah and also a lot of people in leadership positions yeah you know and we wear this wonderful mask that everyone thinks you're okay but inside again that constant comparison oh I couldn't do this I better hold back oh yeah but I'm not that type of person yeah the chatter we can have oh it's exhausting exhausting it's really exhausting and when um I um talked about imposter syndrome more publicly I was so blown away by the responses that I got from lots of people that I'd never met before but just saying thank you so much for talking about this thank you so much for being a leader who talks about this because that isn't the conversation we often see and I needed to hear that because I really struggle with imposter syndrome yeah something with imposter syndrome that I know that's helped me in terms of sort of to reframe it a little bit is every time I think I feel like an imposter I know I'm going through growth so it's almost like well I'm going to feel like an imposter because I'm about to do something I've never done before so it's going to feel new it's going to be feel different I'm going to feel uncomfortable and I think anytime as human beings we step into uncertainty or the unknown that's when the chatter goes even louder going oh no you don't want to do this because it just wants to keep you safe and I think that's where this feeling like an imposter can come into so I think there is the opportunity to reframe it as a positive for growth versus always going oh an imposter syndrome so that means I can't yeah but I know that really good point that never that conversation wasn't around when imposter syndrome first sort of came out you were just it was almost just like I can't I don't belong yes exactly the confidence goes exactly and I think um firstly I think there's a healthy amount of imposter syndrome to have which is you know to your point I haven't done this before will yeah no one knows if you can achieve what you set out to of course there's there's opportunity for failure which obviously is not a bad thing all the time so I think a healthy amount of not necessarily imposter syndrome but you know can I do this you know how's it going to work out uncertainty feeling nervous anticipation is healthy and normal but it's it's recognizing when it starts to take up too much space in your head and your thoughts and is literally stopping you from doing things and it's just being aware of that I think and the other point which has only ever just occurred to me actually through this conversation is there's something inherent in the in the phrase of imposter syndrome which is about comparing yourself to other people because to be an imposter you have to kind of not fit in I suppose and I don't know I think there's more to unpack around how much we compare ourselves to others and I can't remember that phrase comparison being the thief of thief of joy joy something like that and i think that's so true and trying to um filter out that comparison and the noise and just focus on you and what you can do i think might be interesting and a sense of freedom yeah as you mentioned the guests we had earlier this came up a little bit we were saying it's so important to help you get that inner freedom is to know what your values are what your standards are to manage your mindset like the minute I learned how to manage my mind my whole life changed and it was when someone said to me your mind is not you it's a tool that you use to help you go where you want to go and I could sort of give a bit of space to it yeah so all that noise I was like that's not me talking that's not my voice that's just a voice trying to look after me it's not who I am yeah um so with a lot of the work I do and I show people what their inner world are people are like I didn't even know any of that existed because there's so much to the inner world yeah um we're so reliant on that external world and we judge ourselves on how we think other people see us how we show up how we dress what we've got what we own and that's our judgment of ourselves yeah and no wonder then if that's how if that's how we're judging ourselves we can only judge on what we see and what we see is then what we're going to compare yeah versus that inner knowing of well this is who I am I know this is important to me that's important to that person to have an amazing house flash card that's not important to me this is so why am I comparing yes with someone who has very different values to values yeah absolutely how do you navigate this being a ceo in terms of you've got a lot of people you're responsible for and you're gonna have a big percentage of them who have got low confidence or feeling like an imposter syndrome with what you've experienced yourself how has that helped you connect with them and guide them and help them grow in their confidence well I think it's you know obviously that openness that vulnerability um sharing um my story and my experience and you know within the organization that I work in there are I have some direct reports and they will then have you know so trying to kind of work with them on a one-to-one basis and you know spot things like lack of confidence holding people back as I was saying earlier when I was going through this kind of process with my coach of trying to understand why did I have this sort of these beliefs about myself where did they come there was no evidence for them actually the evidence is really positive so I say to people find those emails that you've been sent telling you that you've done a great job find your appraisal where people have said really positive things about you that is your evidence for your performance not these abstract voices in your head or that person that stranger over there on the internet is doing a thing that i'm not doing that's not that's got nothing to do with your performance and put it in a folder and when you're lacking confidence go and read those things and remind yourself that people do believe in you and if you really need it write them out put them on a post-it note and stick it in front of your computer so it's there all the time yeah really nice um so I think that's quite a practical tangible thing that people can do to start to kind of just reframe where those beliefs are coming from I'm gonna get I'd love to get your view on something because I was recently talking to a leader where they felt that everything had to be positive and they really struggled with anything that felt negative or pulling the energy down is everything possible which made me a bit nervous because we need to have difficult conversations with people we need to give people feedback to say look you're not performing quite there and hearing that how was your view on balancing that positive you know you're doing well you're doing praise how have you built i don't know if you have a work like a feedback culture where actually people can receive things without it completely knocking their confidence they see it as like i can now grow i can learn from this because I know a lot of companies are struggling with this yeah yeah no it's really hard sometimes to give difficult negative feedback and it's hard to get people to do that across the board and create a feedback culture it's definitely something that we talk about a lot and we work on and we try and role model that as leaders I think it's about trying to position that feedback as something that is going to help you get to where you want to get to because you know most of the people I work with are super ambitious and they want to do well and they want to progress and it's really demoralizing for people and really disorientating where they're not making progress and they don't know why because they haven't been told I know people don't tell people do they know it's really hard but and I think you have to really take the time to think really carefully about how you're going to deliver that feedback like I don't think difficult conversations are ones that you can go into unprepared because under pressure you need to make sure that the things that come out of your mouth are precise and fair and accurate and clear so I think preparation is really important and trying to think about what that person needs to know and how they're going to receive it and how you're going to make them feel like there's chance for them to overcome any of that and leave yeah there's there's a plan there's a solution and I think that's the thing you said something clear there when I go and do team audits the number one thing across the board that comes back is everyone wants more clarity number one and it's so interesting I think what can happen is so much communication is happening in the leadership team it's just not trickling down yeah to everybody else and this clarity so I love the fact that you use the word clear because I think that's just what it just where we have so much uncertainty at the moment yeah the one thing that can give you certainty even if a leader doesn't know the answers just to be clear yeah we don't know right now yes exactly so people stop stop guessing yes really important how are you navigating you know it is a challenging marketplace at the moment and there is a lot of uncertainty what's your leadership style in navigating that and trying to create some calm but being honest that it is hard right now yeah I think you know people can see what's going on around them and it it's a very challenging environment but it has been for the last forever really but certainly for the last five years and we talk about the perma crisis and this is kind of the new normal but we do always acknowledge the macro environment that we're operating in that any that any organization is operating in any individual is operating in the economy the political um scenario in this country and in the world climate it's all very very um stressful and most of those things we have zero control over they're happening around us and they impact us but we can't control them however there are so many things that we have control of our own performance our own relationships how we work with each other how we partner with our clients there's so much that's in our control so let's focus on that um and I think that gives people a sense of um agency and okay yeah it's crazy out there but let's believe in ourselves and let's focus on doing a brilliant job in the things that we can control yeah really nice I think that that focus isn't it just let's focus in the right place yeah they're really nice yeah um for you because CEO is a big job yeah big responsibility did you I know obviously when you were growing up you're looking at the people going oh I could never do never do that yeah when did you have that bit of a fire going no I kind of want to be CEO definitely not a thing that I ever started out you know when I first started out it was like how do I even keep this job you know I just couldn't think any further ahead than probably getting to account director um and then I think again it was that turning point of like unlocking my imposter syndrome I'm going okay well I'm looking around me and there are successful people but on paper I've got as much chances as they have of doing a good job but I have got ideas and I have got a point of view on stuff so let's just keep going and see I'm just going to keep going until someone tells me you're just not good enough for this I think I got to a point where I sort of accepted and acknowledged that I actually did want an agency leadership role I'd been sort of skirting around it for a while and I just took the leap and decided that that's what I was going to go for and I was incredibly fortunate to cross paths again with Charlie Rudd who is now my boss and has been my boss for the last six years but he was looking for an MD and I just thought I'm gonna he believed in me because we'd worked together previously and I just thought I really respect him and if he believes in me I'm just gonna go for it and I trust that he will be a really brilliant supportive boss which he is anyone who knows him will attest to that and I think it's just been that sort of um it's organically the ambition has kind of grown as we've collectively with the rest of the leadership team and the agency just kind of our success has kind of grown and manifested and I think I was like okay I think I'm really am do believe that I can do this and here's the opportunity and I can't not do it were you nervous yes and no I think again because I'd gradually grown into it so it was nice and I'd you know had a brilliant role model and teacher and guide who is still around so I think I just felt really well supported um and yes I was obviously had the healthy amount of um you know anxiety over okay I was able to do the MD job will I will I really make it as a CEO um but I just didn't give that too much oxygen and just thought why don't just focus on doing the job and see what happens see what happens that's brilliant I think that's that whole thing, isn't it?

25:52Just like backing yourself. Yeah. Walking through the door when an opportunity comes. Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. and if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team just drop me a dm and we'll set up a call thanks so much now let's get back to the episode you mentioned anxiety there yeah how has anxiety been a friend or an enemy to you as as you've grown yeah i would definitely consider myself um you're not supposed to say anxious person person who has anxiety um in various ways my whole life I suppose um and I think it's again a bit like the imposter syndrome it's healthy it's not as part of being a human being I think I don't believe there's anyone that doesn't have a sense of anxiety over certain whether it's over certain scenarios or things and again it's it's there as a protection mechanism and it's you know it's how we've survived as a species but it's making sure that it is proportionate to the threat that you face and it's identifying when it gets out of control and then learning how to kind of understand it and manage it so I definitely have you feel it lots of anxieties about lots of things and I work really really hard to make sure that it doesn't take on a life of its own and overwhelm me um has it ever got out of control um well probably again back to my imposter syndrome like I'm not really functioning I think it's that definitely expressed itself as anxiety So, yeah, definitely I've had moments in my life where it has got out of control.

28:03And I've now built loads of kind of layers of coping mechanism that have just become my daily life. You know, exercise, sleep, eating well, connecting with friends, investing in my relationships. All of those things are, you know, there to help me just cope with life. Really? You mentioned sleep there. yeah I know that hasn't always been easy for you are you happy to share yeah sure um yes insomnia that's an absolute never experienced it I hate people like you sorry you're very lucky it's awful me understand it it's awful and again I think it's something that I've um has been a bit of an Achilles heel for me for a long time but before having a child it was kind of manageable because I'd just sleep in for an extra hour in the morning or, you know, have an early night.

29:02But when suddenly you have a kid and that's when it really spiraled out of control, because you just can't, you can't lie in, you can't catch up. It is relentless. And then the insomnia itself and the fear and the anxiety around it becomes a thing that stops you from sleeping um so yeah when I um had my daughter it really got completely out of control and I would go nights without a wink of sleep lying in bed heart racing worrying about how I was going to cope the next day getting into bed the next night having not sat the night before thinking I'm never going to sleep again it was awful um but I have done a lot of work on it and a lot of reading and a lot of um i just work on it to um try and manage it and i have to say it's so much better now and at the heart of that has been i found this amazing book i can't remember the name of it now i think it's called the sleep book um and it's by a guy called i think his name's guy meadows at the heart of his philosophy is acceptance essentially acceptance the fight against the insomnia is half the battle and being able to accept that you're awake and to use that time to still rest and to still relax and to meditate and all of those things therein lies the answer and it's really really hard to do that um but when you can get to that point then there are still nights that I don't sleep but it does not affect me anywhere near as much as it used to you can stay quite calm i can stay really calm i'll be fine the next day i've done it before i will sleep again these things happen etc thank you for sharing that that's okay i'm pretty sure people listen to this will be going through that yeah um can i just ask what period was it did this happen like md ceo level when you um no it was actually before that it was before that um when i had my first child like before that point I would have periods of insomnia connected to just any stress that was happening in my life or even just like overwhelm you know I've got loads of work on or there's something particular that would be the thing that's how it would manifest that anxiety would manifest in like a whirring brain waking up at two in the morning then not be able to go back to sleep but I could manage it because I could always catch up and it just wasn't a problem it was really having a child that kicked it that i just couldn't yeah that made it so much worse and i know i want to come on to the charge and say i just want to quickly say in terms of the power reinforce the power of your acceptance is my husband had to have two discs replaced in his neck so he's had chronic pain for years and he went for coffee with um like a coach life coach they just she just said have he tried everything every physio just said have you tried acceptance and he was like what try acceptance yeah again like you just got into overnight change for him in just terms of accepting that he had this pain that then they softened the pain it's so powerful it's incredible so anyone listening to us going oh yeah acceptance whatever like please trust us yeah it is incredibly powerful way to manage your mind i think it's one of the most underrated skills of human being is to learn how to do acceptance yeah but going back I know like having the child and then returning to work has created a bit of a you know a mission yeah for you can you tell us a bit about that yeah sure so um my daughter is eight um so I returned to work you know after a year and I think essentially I was just expecting to pick up where I left off there was no um there was no sort of coaching or conversation about how my life had changed how my world of work would change and I found it so hard and so stressful because I went I was doing a four-day week so I was going from having always about five days and then working four days and on top of that I had a hard, you know, I couldn't start before nine o 'clock and I had to leave at 5.30.

33:24And that basically meant I was losing at least two hours of every working day. So I just, the compression of time just felt really hard to navigate. And I didn't know how to get all the work done, plus spend time with my child, plus sleep. because I because of my insomnia I can't work in the evening I will never ever sleep I just can't do it so it was just really really hard and I was in my first month I was regularly asked to work on a Friday oh there's a client meeting and it was like okay uh I guess I don't know how to navigate this because I was being asked by senior people who just had no lived experience of being a working parent or a working mum or being in a dual income household where both parents are working and there isn't just someone at home constantly looking after the kids and I found it really really hard and lost confidence completely like how do I have a career how am I going to compete with people that don't have kids that can work longer hours than me so that was a really um not a very did Did you feel quite lost?

34:41Yeah, I felt totally lost. Yeah. Totally lost. And there was no one, no one spotted it and went, I think you need some support here. Let me show you the way. Let me tell you what I've done or what's worked for me or what hasn't. So one of the things I've invested a lot in at Leo is creating a really supportive and inclusive environment for working parents. because compared to when I joined the industry 20 years ago, there are way more women working, which is a brilliant thing. There are way more dual income households where, you know, kids are in full time childcare. There isn't someone at home if the kids are sick, if they need an appointment, all of those things.

35:24So it's really, really hard for parents to kind of stick to this old school system of you're in the office five days a week nine to five and nothing from your personal life ever intrudes on that so we've created parent land at leo which is a whole range of initiatives where there's coaching for expectant parents there's a buddy system for parents returning from maternity or paternity leave to kind of support them with the challenges that are just inevitable and come up along the way yeah um we've had expert um training for just parenting workshops because it's not just about babies and young children um lots of our parents have teenagers who've lived through covid and have a whole range of challenges mental health challenges educational challenges neurodiversity that are really really stressful for people to manage and do encroach on the world of work and they I just think if we can relieve a little bit of pressure because I know there's enough of us to kind of come together so we've done a series of parenting workshops um yeah so we've really worked hard to try and like make that return to work and really at the sort of heart of a lot of that is also the gender pay gap if you look at the data and you look at the evidence a big kind of driver of the gender pay gap is women getting to um parenthood and finding that they can't work it's too difficult it's too inflexible and dropping out the world of work or really pulling back and working part-time and that is a massive driver of the gender pay gap so if we can both support working mums but also working dads so that um you know the theory goes that if you know dads are sharing the load as much as so many of them want to as well and it's harder for them because they don't have the role models they've kind of senior men parenting out loud shout out to elliot ray who i've never met but i think he's doing a brilliant job around this and support working dads then i think we can really make the workplace much more progressive and flexible to support working parents i couldn't agree more and also it's been so interesting you've got a few friends that have done the longer paternity than a woman's done and And the fear that they've started to feel of, will I have a job?

37:52And it's like there are now men seeing it through what it's like to be a woman's eyes. Oh, my God, I now know how difficult this must have been and how you must have felt. And again, the men losing the confidence going back into the workplace when they've been out six months. They haven't done a year, but six months. It's still like, oh, my God, how exhausting. Especially how quickly things are changing now. So, yes, I think getting that lens across both to enable more fair parenting. We just need more balance. for men and women men need better support and access to parenting yeah so that they're not the support parent from birth they are an equal partner and women need more support to kind of come back to work and for their careers to thrive and gender equality is better for everybody yeah well said love that on that note i'd like to know if you imagine your future self oh yes goes far into the future you want you can just do a year 5 10 your future self i forgot to prep for this that's why I'm giving you a bit of yeah a bit of a lead into it and they're sitting here they want to give you some really good advice what would your future self tell you right now enjoy it enjoy enjoy the moment try not to worry too much about the future no one knows what the future will bring but enjoy the challenges and the successes that you're experiencing right now um it's lovely because we as i think we spend too much worrying about stuff and you actually go yeah actually we have no idea yeah exactly and that's anxiety right that is the future projection worrying about things that might never happen yeah it's so such a waste of time and our imagination is crazy calm me down yeah the catastrophizing and if there's anyone sitting there kind of sitting on the fence can i be a leader can i not be a leader i'm not sure if they're starting to feel they're not got the self-belief in themselves what immediate advice would you give them anyone can be a leader and I think the key to being a leader is to know who you are and really know who you are and really amplify that and I think if you know who you are and you know your values and you know your beliefs and that's not always easy I remember being asked that when I like you know along the way when you're I don't know but and perhaps that just comes with experience but I think at the same time the more you know yourself the more of a leader you will naturally be yeah and I think the more you can connect with others yes because you're so more certain in yourself exactly and I think you can connect with others and you can go into the unknown with grace exactly because you're more solid in here yeah it's really nice yeah Carly thank you so much pleasure thank you me too could keep going yeah we could keep going i'm like oh the time's running out it's awful but thank you so much and thank you to everyone who's listening and watching and we'll see you next time if you've been enjoying the courageous leaders podcast we'd love it if you'd subscribe to our youtube channel your support helps us keep creating quality content and reaching more leaders like you who are ready to grow and make a real impact we fund this podcast ourselves so every subscription truly makes a difference and allows us to support courageous leaders like you.

41:08Thank you for being part of the journey.