What’s Killing Creative Leadership Today? - with Dave Buonaguidi

0:00This isn't your usual Leadership Room 101 episode of the Courageous Leaders Podcast. This is the Creatives Edition. Three creative leaders, three leadership frustrations, but only one gets banished forever. Which frustration will it be? And will the creatives agree or clash? Let's find out. First up, I'm thrilled to welcome Dave Bonagridi, co-founder of agencies including St. Luke's, 4 Creative and Karma Rama, who has since channeled his creativity and wit into the art world as the real Hackney Dave. Next, we have the founder and ECD of Quiet Storm Agency, Trevor Robinson OBE, who is the creative mind behind iconic campaigns like You've Been Tangoed and Haribo's Kids Voices.

0:47And lastly, we were supposed to have CCO of Havas London, Vicky Maguire. Unfortunately, however, she is poorly today. But fear not, we found a last minute replacement who is a creative and is a legend for stepping in at the last moment, my husband, Kevin Howes. I feel like I'm more of a leg end. Leg end. Again, Kevin. I feel like I've turned out like the wrong funeral. I'll do you a bit of a bio, Kevin, so you don't feel left out. Kevin is a freelance creative director with over 25 years experience working on global campaigns for the likes of Porsche, Sony and Hotels.com. Thank you all for joining us.

1:20Thank you. This is obviously Leadership Room 101. And I would like to know, we're going to start with you, Dave. What would you like to put in to Room 101? Lanyards. I just hate everything about lanyards just the whole the way they feel I hate the stupid little fucking thing with the branding on it and then the way that they feel on your chest when you move around you can feel it banging I had to wear a lanyard when I was at Channel 4 and you used to have to use it to go through the doors the toilets the coffee machine everything was information I just couldn't stand it but I'm not going to go I didn't want to do a wrong conversation on lanyards lanyards was the first thing I was thinking of I just fucking hate them and I had to do something recently where I went into a design company and they made me wear a lanyard and I could I got all cold down one side of my body and half the face just flopped because it was just horrible just depressing triggered but I'm going to go for we're going to go something out of time bigger corruption so you go from lanyards to corruption but it's i think they're all effectively the same they're all they're all byproducts of corruption and control control and it's corruption moral business political so what is it about corruption i just hate people who are shithouses basically i don't like people who and i've worked you know trevor and i have worked in this business for a long time you've worked in this business for a long time and we've come across every kind of corrupt individual that you will ever meet and i can probably count on one hand or two hands the people that i thought were really clean all the way through and he's one of them actually because i mean we worked together nice we were not sure about you but you know we worked together we were lucky enough to work together at an agency when it was very small and i think in small agencies something happens interesting people get drawn in because they're crazy and they like doing all of the mad stuff like staying really late, working every weekend, ruining every aspect of your life.

3:25Yeah, you don't have relationships. Yeah, you don't have relationships. Unless you're married. And then you drive them nuts. And then you get a divorce. And they leave. But there's something really pure about the people who go into startups. And it's just a weird addiction these people have, which is they give. And as the business progresses and as the business gets bigger and if it's lucky enough to get off the beach and two, three years and then build on that. And you've done yours for 30 years to have gone through the cycles that that place has gone through when it peaks and falls. Well, you know what that's like.

4:02I mean, I've been there. You're doing really well, winning stuff. Next minute you're having to make people redundant. Well, who was it? Was it Bogle who said you're any of it? It doesn't matter how big you are. You're three phone calls away from annihilation. And I remember I've had days where you got seven phone calls and you were like, mate, I don't know if I've got a job now. and um but there's something that happens when you get through that and you and you have values and integrity baked in which a lot of businesses don't because most businesses are started up by people going what am i working for that arsehole for i could go and work for myself and make all that money myself rather than having to fund his trips to ski resorts in the bahamas and and so they just repeat the same formula and um the thing i really enjoyed was when you look at businesses as a concept and you go, what's broken about this business?

4:48What could we do to make it better? Or what could we do to make it different? Or, you know, when you're in the advertising world, it's so competitive. How do you stand out when you're really small? How do you stand out against a really big group that are going to throw money at stuff and, you know, 50 people and people around the world? And, you know, when there's only four of you sitting in a room and clapping. And it's like, and so you have to find something that means something. And I always felt, I found it really interesting when you made it about values that you would have as a human. I've always found it really confusing, and I think we talked about it in the last podcast, that you have all these values with your mates and your family and your partners, but then when you walk through the revolving door at the office, you go, arsehole.

5:29And how can I fuck up the bloke who's sitting opposite me, and how can I fuck up that woman over there so I can get what she's got and then fuck the client? And it was just, I just felt not smart enough to do that. I was really stupid. I just find it really complicated, and it's just so much easier when you can just go in and this is what we do. If you don't like it, go away. And if you do like it, well, let's work together. And so it's just when I look at corruption, you know, I think it starts morally. And when you have no integrity in things that you do and you look at all the problems in the world right now, I think they're all driven by very corrupt decisions that were made that people seem to be able to live with.

6:08And I think... Yeah, that's the point I was going to say. do they wake up and go wow I'm filth I don't know I think it's because ultimately it's always you look at all the things that are happening right now all the things that could be stopped right now and you know that if you turn around put your hand up and said I'm not doing it that you'd lose your job and you'd get blacklisted and you'd get intimidated or whatever it is ultimately you lose your money and that's your income and then the knock on effect of that goes through but I remember when I was a kid when they would sort of go to the Germans, when they were doing all those terrible things, a lot of them just went, well, we were just following orders.

6:45But at least in those days, if you didn't follow orders, they killed you. Whereas now it's just like we take your job away or we take your money away. And it's just that thing of that moral compass where you just go, there's a line that I won't put my hand up and say no because I don't want to suffer. So I'll just go along with it. But you were always that kind of person. You always had that integrity. And I always felt I was similar. Well, I didn't think I would ever really last in advertising because I think, you know, I've had people do horrible things and do say and be that way. And I literally would say, look, I need to talk to you downstairs on the street and then practically offer a map for a fight.

7:24Do you know what I mean? Because I was like, I just couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand when people were bullies and people were openly sexist. We had one of our clients back in the day, we can smoke in the office and he came in his big cigar and he started doing really well with us. And he really disliked my, she's like, when we're small, she's like my strategist, planner and creative. Yeah. And we were, he hated her and she had a bag open on the reception area. And I always remember he just went like that, flicked his ashes into her handbag. And I stood there like this. Why did he hate that?

8:02How long did he know that? It was a sexist thing. I don't know. It wasn't like... It was just a controlled power. It's like, why is he racist? Do you know what I mean? It was one of those things he just was. And I had to resign the business right then and there. Great. Yeah. But I was also thinking I didn't have any clients, really. And I was thinking, my only client. And I just looked and I said, I can't get out of bed and look at this horrible, misogynistic fellow. But it would be easy. Lots of people would have just gone, oh, you get rid of her. Yeah. How are you complaining? And I think you don't realise how much of that moral cold you take on with your business and how you want to be treated.

8:44I think, as you say, it's down to the individual, isn't it? And what their ulterior motive is, you know, how big is their ego? What do they actually want? And it's kind of you either bring people along with you. But that bloke who you were talking about, who just banged ash in her bag. Yeah. I mean, did he sit there and go, I'm an arsehole? I'm an arsehole. but he must have done he must have gone I know what I'm going to do I'm going to do it that's the question I meet people like that whether they're in your company and some people would like lie to your face yeah and you're like going how could I'm not sure if I could walk out the room and went well that was a big lie wasn't it I would have to they just get on do they wake up and go right today I'm going to be a wanker I think they do or do they just I honestly think they do I think it's just different there were different personality types when I was a kid when I was at school, my best mate, his dad used to make weapons for the army, weapons manufacturers.

9:38And I always just thought there's something really weird about that. You go into work and you get all excited and you dress up and then you make things that are going to kill other people. Isn't there something really weird about that? But I think some people are just sociopaths. They're just psychos. They don't have the same empathy traits that other people have. It doesn't surprise me that there are loads of psychos in the workplace in the same way there are lots of psychos in every other aspect. Well, I think it was closer to... I was going to say, well, someone told me actually businesses wouldn't be thriving and do as well as they are if we didn't have the psychopaths though.

10:10So it is, I don't like that, but in terms of to make some of the decisions you have to make to do a successful... But I think it's what Dave said earlier. People condition their minds to believe the lies, to believe and become monsters without realising. And they justify it and they have people around them that helped them to justify how crappy they are. Because everyone gets scared and everyone gets defensive and then you just build up. And they all stand around in the coffee room going, and they make everybody else the enemy and stuff like that. And I find that really, that's the thing that scares me most about people.

10:43Because, yes, there's a lot of sociopaths and psychopaths out there. I've met a lot. But it's the ones that get quietly corrupt, ones that don't send their kids to schools where there's black kids, but they're best friends of you. Do you know what I mean? Those are the ones that, those quiet little ones that freak me out the most. And that's all those individual levels. But it has a knock on a face, especially with leadership. If you've got a wanker of a leader or someone who's not leading, you know, is leading through their ego, a lot of people will learn from them. Oh, yeah. And so they go, oh, I've got to be like that.

11:16100%. Totally. You know, that's how I need to lead. Going back to it. Unless your values are so pure. How lucky we were. You know, I'm sure Rupert, when he was at Y &R, was absolutely in that business that high-end business you know wine i was a great agency at the time when we when he did hal henry you know we were in a above a record shop in soho and they're all painting toilets and you know all sitting in a room and it was just it was mental but it was like no we're going to try and break the mold a little bit but on every single aspect on the level of work the quality of the work the amount of work you did the way we behave it was it was brilliant to be to see because it was also brand new yeah i think dave's mentioned it earlier You jumped out of bed.

11:55You didn't mind working all the way through the night. And like I was talking about before when I used to work with Tom Carty and Dave Dye and all that, we didn't even have a job in the West End. And we used to come in and work through the night on our portfolios. And then come rushing back. You were so excited about the concept that you could perhaps have a piece of your work on telly or on a poster that your family could see and stuff. How naive and stupid we were. Actually, to realise there's not much longevity in that as well. Do you know what I mean? Because that enthusiasm, and you can be like that, but the rest of you people in your company, especially nowadays, they're just like, no, I'll leave at five.

12:37Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel. It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you, so if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. The last business I had was Unlimited Inc, where we used to work with startups.

13:13I got called in to work with somebody and I had to work in an agency and we had to do this pitch for this piece of business. And a young team came up with the work that was presented and we did it and we won the pitch and they were going to make it. And then I said to one of the other creative directors who was working at the agency, oh, you know, great. He said, yeah, we're doing a shoot. It's the 92nd. It's really good, really good fun. I was like, brilliant. I said, how are the teams? Team happy? And he went, no, I've had a really weird moment. One of them said he can't make it to the filming.

13:42And I said, what? And he went, no, because he's doing basketball. and I was as he was saying it I was trying to get on my bike to go round there and bash him up because he was like what basketball you do fucking one hour on a court or you go and shoot your first commercial it is very weird it was such a weird when I heard that I said you know what fire him get him out bringing it back to corruption although I do like that sorry well I think you know what this has actually saved me about 80 quid it's not when I'm lying down crying in front of a doctor it is therapy yeah So then, lanyards. The last bit on Corruption Will Do, something I've seen, and then I'd love to know what you want to put in, Trevor, is I put a post up on LinkedIn, which is all about toxic leadership and bullying and how much that's so present in very, very senior leadership.

14:31Like the people have obviously got the private yachts and the jets and everything right up there to how it filters down. And what was so sad that came back is so many people DM'd me saying, I'm going through this right now. And I raised my voice for others to say we can't be treated like this. but they're the ones as you said being pushed out and the scary thing was is they're seeing and i'm not saying this is all hr but seeing hr as corrupt because they can't do anything because these people are so powerful hr don't want to lose their job so the thing you had to help can't help yeah i think hr is the most repellent of all the departments just because it's there to protect allegedly the staff and what it actually does is most of the time it protects, it doesn't protect the staff it protects bad behaviour because they know what are you going to do?

15:19You're going to get rid of your managing director It's probably your boss. You're working for him so what are you going to do? You're going to call him out and then have to find a new MD, pay him off a million quid or whatever it's going to cost so it's just another little it's one of the estate agents, they're just there to sort of fill in the gaps and make sure that everything sort of runs smoothly but I can't stand at HR I know, I'm going to give it a little bit of a difference. I think the intention for it is good. And the people who go to do it have the intention to care. But they've just got handcuffs on.

15:48They're tools, yeah. They've just become tools for the machine. I can't remember the last time. Because my agency's never had HR. Oddly enough, when Karma Rama first started, I used to be called HR Dave. And when there were things that... As in royalty? No, no, not at all. No, not at all. but it was like when they would do things I used to just have a little sign off signature that just had a picture of me going and it just said see you in court fucko HR Dave and it was like can we stop stealing wine out of the fridge and it called people out but in a funny way and then I remember we acquired another business and their HR department got in touch and said oh you're head of HR and I was like yeah and said oh can we have a meeting about HR stuff and I was like of course yeah come in and they had no idea But their HR department, they had more people in their HR department than we had in the creative department.

16:40I had about four teams working for me and they had about eight people in HR. And the minute they saw me, they were just like, he's not a head of HR. And we had a little room that had all of the sign off, see you in court, fucko, let every day be a religious holiday. It was just taking a piss out of all HR. And then the minute it got introduced, it all just went, don't get me started on HR. Then I was in a company, they wouldn't have HR because they just wanted to make sure there there was nowhere that someone could go and complain. Complain. Yeah. The thing that was really interesting about how Henry, and I'm sure what you know, when you don't have an HR department, you hire people who, when somebody's in trouble, the whole team goes wrong.

17:19It's like a really finely tuned football team. I don't want to use football analogies, but it's like that. It's like when somebody's in trouble, everybody notices. Everybody does. You kind of recognise what to do. And there's something beautiful about that. When you know someone's a bit of a wrong one as well, and I can't mention names, but it was like no no we got rid of them and it was like but it was really weird i mean it's just sad though isn't it you kind of like you just want to work with nice people because when you do have the team who are enthusiastic you kind of you know want to give your all you are like a family you work the long hours you take pride that's magic but when you've got people who are it's a very situational moment because it's like like i said with hal henry when we were both working there and when i was working there before they moved to the building where we all worked at they were just like normal people you know they used to come in through the front door i remember when i got when i had the interview you know pricey who was the head of finance was painting the top pricey is about eight foot five and watching him get into a little room to paint it but i just thought that's the he's one of the partners painting the toilet and there was something really pure about that and they knew everybody and they cared and that filters down because all of a sudden it's like somebody's upset they talk to the partners how power corrupts though as well because i've known people when they were just little junior craters really nice people and then you know four years later they're you know they're being horrible to people and i'm finding out you know how much mental cruelty they've been doing to people i'm like where did that come from?

18:54Do you know what I mean? Because they've got that position of power. And I find that when it comes to corruption as well, it's like people start going, the power gets to them and they start going, where's my cab? Where's my cup of coffee and all? And this is not hot. Do you know who I am? Yeah. So I think that was a very good conversation on corruption. I'm very clear now. I wish I'd say lanyard. Lanyard was a good segue into corruption. It was about control. go up to the lanyards trevor i would love to know what would you love to banish into leadership room 101 what i'd like to banish is like lots of people will kind of go including dave oh i like it i like this but i i don't like open plan offices and stuff like you know because i i came from when we're at halen and you had your own little office and where it really comes from is when i was a creative especially my partner al young we would push it with what we was not spending ages on the dole trying to work on and we would push and make each other laugh the most obscene things and just like things that you knew was wrong if you had an hr person sat in the corner of the room we'd lose our job about a hundred times but it was it allowed us to be get out of the norm and and try and eke out in those little sort of corridors of creativity in your head.

20:21Why can't we say that? Push the boundaries. Can we do? You push the boundaries. And like we are now, we've got a brilliant agency and it's got a great atmosphere. It's very, you know, family feel to it. But it's small. How many people have you got in your place? About 30. Okay, yeah, perfect. And it's small. And like it happened today. you know we said something and someone goes oh you can't say that and we're like you know what do you mean and i'll say no no listen it's about the idea we're just trying to make ferment the idea of it and then somebody else would go oh he's dead he can't do it he can't appear in it

21:02good point but like you could ai the guy's voice in two seconds but like all i'm saying is it was it was stifling creativity and anything like that and I think there's really brilliant times when you want to be in a group and kick things out there and escalate an idea you do that on shoot you do that in you know in brainstorms but there's also times when you want a bit of time to yourself just to kick things around and or just push things and like now craze has to go off to sit in a coffee or go and sit in some weird little booth somewhere. And you just kind of think it's, I think it's a testament also into valuing where ideas comes from.

21:46And I think people have forgotten, you know, sometimes. Or they don't care. Yeah. Some people like having a, right, give me an idea. Give me an idea. And some people actually like us just sitting and chatting and, you know, a bit like this, where you just can kick things around. And unfortunately, we've been recorded here. it's like you have to watch what you say and like and I find even even the way I swear I don't realise how much I swear until I'm coming up with something and you see other people in the room go you know grimace I've almost had to start asking permission when I swear I remember going oh are you alright with me swearing I swear quite a bit and then you kind of when you get to our age mate you'll get there's a moment where you just don't give a fuck it's because you can't remember what you just said it's like a dark You walk through it and you just go, it doesn't matter anymore.

22:36I remember when I did St. Luke's and Chiat Day, it was all open plan, but it was done because it was cheaper. You could get more people in without having, because everybody goes, I want a big glass box. But I remember having a meeting when I was at Chiat Day, actually after we left Hal Henry, and we had to go to New York to present some work to this client. He had the biggest fucking office I've ever seen. it was like in a corner Madison Avenue it was a corner it was about 25 floors up on a corner and you could just see the whole of New York in front of you and I was just like mad at myself and I went in there with a bit of paper and I was like and this guy came out and he said hey David and I was like yeah yeah was he Welsh?

23:17yeah and he said are you going to show me some work and I said yeah this is a layout and then he got it and he put it right up against his eyes like that he had these big glasses like decanter bottoms and he was holding it up like that. And he goes, yeah, it looks great. And I walked out and I went, what the fuck's all that? And I went, he's almost blind. I said, mate, what did you put him in that corner office for? He could have put him in a broom cupboard. Is that going to get me into trouble? Am I going to get cancelled for that? But it was that old legacy of he's really important, so he has to have a big, fuck-off office and he can't even see further than the end of his nose.

23:57Well, that's a different... The status thing. That's a state. That's like, crash car. You're right. He's just trying to fight for his one again. He's Trevor's turn. That's right. I like it. You're right. I think that whole concept of like when you're throwing ideas around, all those little kernels will come from everywhere and sometimes really dark places and you've got to get all of that out and I think it's really valid that you have that space and you're right. Most people now just go and work at home while they work in a coffee shop. The other day, I was with the creators. We've got a little dartboard there.

24:35And I was like, we're just shooting the breeze and just about an idea. And we started getting excited about an idea. And then behind me, someone goes, it's been done. And then they went online. He's going like that. Yeah, it's been done. I went, that's not the same idea at all. You've not got the idea. We all got sidetracked with this. Oh, let me just find this out. Yeah, it's been done. I'm just like, mate, shut up. Collaboration when you don't want collaboration. I think it's such a tricky business with the dynamics between tweets. We've known so many teams and you just think, I don't even know how they used to work together because they're so different.

25:16And to get the most out of each other and get the best out of each other. Half the time, me and Al, he was out of the room walking around, doing the walk. I say he's the social worker of the company go around talking to people and I'll sit there like this and nothing would happen and then he'll come in and then we'll go and come up with something and then he'll be like I'm off again and it was just like that was our dynamics and I noticed that with a lot of teams and creators some creators go off and they write it all themselves which I can't do at all Kept used to do that you used to go off on your own didn't you yeah working as a team but it's like kind of we get the brief and then we go off separately because we've got our own thoughts then you come back together and then you bounce off each other.

25:56It's just the way we work. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Some people would just, they would literally tell ideas. I could feel it as a credit director. He's come up with that completely by himself. And they're even selling their own one harder than that one. Oh, yeah. And I'm just like, oh, come on, man. But it is a very competitive, you know, it's like F1 drivers. You know, your first competitor is your team partner. And, you know, I've experienced it. Yeah, yeah, I know. people and it's like you know where you're like kind of I remember was it Dave Trott always used to do this thing where he'd take the teams and he'd split them up and then get them to work with other people to try and find out who the good one was and it was really horrible but it was a brilliant move because it was like it raised the level everybody suddenly went oh my god I've got to try harder Was the motive to find the best one because I've had that before but the motive was free your mind so you're not set with I'm working with the same copywriter when you come up with the same ideas or you get a bit settled it was just if you switch then you think differently because yeah but also when you're when you're settled you kind of you know i've worked i'm not a writer but i've worked with really good writers and what you do is you you become lazy a little bit because you're not you know when you're a team it's you know writing the words and the ideas should come from anywhere whereas when you're a creative director you've got to become a better writer because you're going to be looking at other people's writing yeah and you've got to make sure that but i've also found it was like one team i'll be careful not to mention say it because they're lovely okay one of them was he was a bit on the spectrum right and and you could you talk to him and you just think it's not going in and but you see his drawings and illustrations and all that kind of stuff and you go he's quite mad but that I like that madness yeah and his creative partner was a little bit she was just lovely right she got it you say something to her she got it and she kept and got the best out of his madness and they became a killer team.

27:54And it worked. Do you know what I mean? So if I went, it's him or it's her, it wouldn't have worked. Do you know what I mean? They were together. No, but that's because you understand the dynamic that you can get two opposites or two different things when they come together, a part of a good recipe. Whereas the other model of finding out who's the smart one or who's the dummy was just done. And I thought it was an interesting model, but it was just done to try and raise the level of the competitiveness. I don't agree with it. I've never enjoyed competitive atmospheres and stuff like that. Me and Al used to put on, and every time I put in enough on myself to try and be as good as I can be.

28:30I don't need added energy of going, right, we've got to be better. I just think it's that toxic, especially old school advertising. There's always about, you know. And I've heard teams be given dilemmas that, right, like they did it over a holiday, is either you come forward and say, you want the job separately or we're going to fire you both. Oh, my God. Make you both redundant. And they did it to all the guys. And, of course, people are stabbing each other in the back when they're on holidays and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, well, I've heard a few of those. Yeah, and I just said, I can't stand.

29:03How could somebody wake up and go, oh, that's a damn good idea? You know, like... Corruption. That's a real bad thing. Corruption. Some people don't even need to be told to do that, to do it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. it's like it's i think it's slightly more it's that power it's about you know i remember crying about um um having to make people redundant one of my really good mates but he's very much you know cold calculated and i was going like i have to make people redundant it's horrible i've grown to love these people and all this kind of stuff and it's not as if they're bad just have to because financial record and he just turned around and he goes you know what i quite enjoy it and i was like going what do you mean he goes well sometimes it's quite good to put the cats among the picture and get people all fighting for the job and knowing it and it also you know you strap around the company and they're slightly worried about you and i was like oh my god adolph just walked in here yeah but good friend telling me this gosh you know what i mean so i don't know Just a quick reminder, if you haven't already, to please hit the like button and subscribe to the channel.

30:12It's a small action that makes a big difference. You'll be the first to know when new episodes drop and your support helps us create meaningful content for leaders like you. I'd also love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts, questions or ideas, pop them into the comments. And if you're curious about how my leadership coaching or training could support you or your team, just drop me a DM and we'll set up a call. Thanks so much. Now let's get back to the episode. We went off a little bit on the open plan. Yeah, very, very good conversation. Is there any final thoughts on do you think I'm just curious because we've linked with corruption.

30:48Do you think open plan encourages more power and egos and that because everyone's on show and needed to be the loudest or the noisiest? Or do you think it encourages more collaboration? I think the latter, really, and I think that's a good thing about it, because I think that's the best. People like being in, pulling someone in a corner and being, you know, toxic and blame, you know, gathering up. I think people still do it. And they don't need a plan or an office to do it. But I do think you're more exposed if you're going to be that nasty. Yeah. But I think you also do, you do get more of a playground thing where we all as a collective don't like so-and-so.