Resisting Influence in an Over-Influenced World

23:24Brené Brown:Yes. And if we go back to the Heath Brothers principles from earlier, if it's a simple, unexpected message, if it's concrete and it's emotional and there's a good story behind it, if you forget the source, you have lost the flashing neon sign that says, hey, this is not credible. And you're just hanging on to the information. Then that information that didn't sway you initially can rebound and now influence you over time. Yes. And there's a group of psychologists that I thought had a great takeaway on this. They said, ultimately, may the source be with you.

24:02That's good. As a Star Wars nerd, I love that. But I think it's right. I think that when we put our guard up, we forget, okay, if I'm going to let any of this information into my head, I need to hang on to the source too. I need to think about, is this a credible source or not? And then when I retrieve that information later, it needs to be linked to the source. I have to remember where I saw it. I have to remember who posted it. I have to ask myself, do I trust this person? And I think that most of our message processing is kind of, okay, the source fades into the background. The information or the recommendation sort of stands out in the foreground.

24:40And that's what ends up in our memory. And I wonder if that's a little bit of a way out of this trap is to say, okay, like if we're building a model of how to resist unwanted influence or being convinced of things that we shouldn't, know your vulnerabilities. That's kind of phase one. Phase two is when you say, okay, this is a fear-based appeal. This is coming from an authority that I don't think is credible. You need to attach. You need to link the appeal to the source.

25:11Brené Brown:Okay. Can I riff on your process a little bit? Please do. Okay. So one, recognize and own your vulnerability. There's no shame in being vulnerable to persuasion. because, I mean, our next episode is going to be on your new book, Vibe. And I don't think without mirror neurons and if someone was completely immune to persuasion, I don't know if we could ever connect and vibe in real ways. So I think the same thing that delivers our susceptibility to persuasion also delivers our capacity for connection and empathy. And do you think that's true? That's so interesting. I never thought about that. But you're right.

25:57I mean, one of the core markers of a healthy relationship and a meaningful interaction is we're both open to being persuaded by each other. Right.

26:07Brené Brown:I just read that in Vibe. I'd never put those pieces together. That's an aha moment for me to say, like, we cannot communicate effectively unless we both accept, like, I am willing to be influenced by you. And you are willing to be influenced by me. And again, next episode's on Vibe. Frickin' love that book. I love when you apply words and linguistics and taxonomies to things that happen that, yeah, I just love it. So we can repeat it and do more of the good stuff and less of the shitty stuff. But so I think the first thing is, yeah, it's just good. It's just good. It's just a good book. You're so terrible taking a compliment.

26:45Brené Brown:But anyway. I'm just sitting here saying, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. I know. But so the first thing is understand that what's the best of us and the hardest of us is our susceptibility to persuasion. It makes us human. So one is to acknowledge that we are influenceable. Okay. Number two, this is my riff on what your model is. Number two is get some persuasion literacy. Be able to recognize the appeal to authority. Recognize, does the appeal to authority replace evidence? Where is the evidence? I did this really quick lit review, and there's not a lot of good literature unless you know some because it's relatively new, about kind of grifting, wellness grifting on social, where 90 % of the information shared by influencers is everything this can do for you.

27:43Brené Brown:None of the caveats, none of the dangers, none of the specific population, you know, no studies. So one, know you're vulnerable and know that's the best of us and the hardest part of us. Two, deconstruct with some advertising literacy. Is that true? Yeah, that's very good. And you're going to add a third. Well, I want to go to your third. I'm just squeezing my second in on the deconstruction and the advertising literature. I think the second is really good. And I think Like, Cialdini's book, Influence, is a crash course in a lot of the ways that advertisers might be trying to manipulate you. I also thought Maria Konnikova in The Confidence Game, where she studied con artists, mapped that out really well.

28:28Brené Brown:Ooh, we'll put those books in the notes. And then the third one you said is, may the source be with you. So when you remember something you should be buying, doing, taking, practicing, chase it back down to the source. Yeah. Who shared it? Who said it? Don't just hang on to the what. Link it to the who. And I think this is so interesting. I've never really thought about this before. But hear me out on this and tell me if it's a terrible idea. It drives me crazy when people say, well, they've shown or they've proven. Like, who's they? Are you saying scientists, researchers? Whenever you hear an ambiguous source or whenever you see a message from somebody that you're not 100 % sure that you trust on that topic, the immediate question should be, who are they?

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30:55for Sense and Sensibility. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested. Only in theaters October 16th.

31:00Brené Brown:Okay. I want to get into who are they? May the source be with you. And one of the things that I found kind of prepping for today that I thought was interesting is one quick way of yes or no. Do you agree with me or not? Or let's push on this for a little bit. Let's rumble on this for a little bit. Does the source have anything to financially gain from me believing them? Yeah. Ulterior motive. Yeah. Do you have any vulnerabilities to these things? I make up that you don't because of your, I make up that you don't. Of course I do. I think everyone does. And I think if I thought I didn't, I would be in danger of the Dunning-Kruger effect applied to persuasion where the more overconfident I am about my invulnerability, the more vulnerable I actually am.

31:56Right. So no, I think I have a really strong reflex to say, appeal to fear, not a credible source. Where is the actual evidence? But I think I have domains where I'm very susceptible. And I actually experienced one recently around AI.

32:12Brené Brown:Oh my God. Do you want to talk about it? Yeah. I mean, we saw a wave of comments over the past few weeks that were much closer to recursive self-improvement than we thought. And maybe AI could kill us all. And I thought that that claim was preposterous. But then I see posts saying from sources I consider to be at the very forefront of pioneering work in AI saying, you know, a swarm of AI agents could take over the internet. I start to think about hacking and I think, okay, like, what are we going to do? Do we need bottled water? Do we need a backup internet source? And - Oh my God, you go prepper.

33:00Yeah. I start to prepare because I don't - I go prepper too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, we don't need to be in bunkers, but we do need to be ready. And it would be so stupid, even if this is a low probability event, it's so high severity that I might as well be ready. And I look back at that and I think, okay, to your point, what vested interest do people have in spreading those messages, in convincing you that their technology is so powerful it could take over the entire internet?

33:29Brené Brown:Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, I have an answer. Ooh, Brene.

33:35Brené Brown:I'm wondering, I don't know either, Like, I am both filling my bathtub with water and critically fighting the messaging at the same time. I'm hedging.

33:49That makes sense, though.

33:50Brené Brown:Yeah, I don't trust any of these people. And I think what's driving the lack of regulation is greed and competition. You know, and probably mainly I would guess with China and other people who have frontier models that are not being slowed down by ethics or testing. And so I think it's greed and competition. But I'm wondering if now they're wanting to slow down because they are hedging on deleveraging in an AI bubble crash. You know, I just don't trust these folks at all. So when they say it's going to help us, I don't trust us. When they say it's going to kill us, I don't trust them. You know, I don't know.

34:30Yeah, I think that's a version of the regulatory capture argument, that if we get to shape the regulation, it's going to benefit us and it will protect us. I also think, you know, one thing I haven't heard talked about a lot, but that I have felt when I interact with some of the AI founders is I think they are vulnerable. They've thought, several of them anyway, not all of them, but if you make a list of the who's who of AI, a number of them have thought in a lot of detail, very vividly, about AI doomsday scenarios. And so if we go back to the Heath brothers, they have the emotion, they have the story, they kind of bounce off of each other and they're in an echo chamber of sources they consider credible.

35:15and I think that the concreteness of the images they generate, they have started to buy into a narrative that the danger of China being ahead of America is so great that we need to get there first, even if the thing we build might be dangerous in ways that China's tools aren't. And I think they've kind of bought hook, line, and sinker the argument that, okay, because China could be faster, the morally responsible thing to do is like, we have to build it so that, you know, we can, we can stop them. Not really considering, okay, is that a fear of mine that now is influencing my motivation? Yeah, no.

35:59Who has sold me that argument about China and what is their vested interest? Their vested interest is in propping up the American economy and getting America to be AI dominant. And I'm not saying their fears are right or wrong, but the fact that the people who are now peddling the fear are themselves also responding to it, I think is a, I mean, it gets complicated very quickly, right?

36:24Brené Brown:Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, make sure that you put on my tombstone, I won. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I just want to go back to the name of the study, dispelling the illusion of invulnerability, the motivations and mechanisms of resistance to persuasion. You know, and this whole idea that when we have shame about being persuadable, we are so vulnerable to influence. Is that wild? It's a little bit mind boggling and it's paradoxical. Not that, you know, not that we've never seen a paradox before or anything, but this is also how people end up believing in conspiracy theories. Oh, a hundred percent.

37:11I'm not talking about plausible conspiracy theories. I am talking about clearly falsified, invalidated conspiracy theories like the earth is flat. Right. And I have seen this. It's clear in the data, but I've also seen it happen with with some people I know where they are so afraid of, you know, pick your poison, big pharma or big government or whatever source they think might have some self-serving intentions or profit motives. They put up their guard against them. And that fear then makes them vulnerable to another group of people who are selling complete snake oil. That's it. I mean, that's what happened with COVID denial.

37:53Brené Brown:Oh, yeah. It's what happens with all kinds of science denial, right? Yeah. And I wonder, you know, this is the wildest conversation. I love it so much. And it's a conversation that's so perfect for the two of us because coming from think like a scientist and then coming from shame and vulnerability, and you can't have this conversation without all of those variables. I love how you just put our life's work together. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, it's cahoots. We're in cahoots here on this one. I think to be able to ask what's persuading me and is the promise that I'm being made supported by evidence? Like, what is the promise?

38:36Brené Brown:And I also think, to be honest with you, the very first week of COVID hitting the U.S., I posted something on social that said, this is going to be an involuntary experiment in mass collective vulnerability. And you will see the best of people and the absolute effing worst of people. And I think that was true. Yeah, you're exactly right.

39:34Brené Brown:steps to the left. And what drives, I think, that we don't ever talk about, what drives the COVID denial and the flat earth and the things that are just kind of mind-boggling, if you follow evidence and sources, is also belonging. I want to be a part of something that, in a mixing bowl looks like a little bit of toughness combined with rebellion, combined with fuck the system. And boy, this mixture is how I want to be seen. I don't want to be controlled. I don't want to be sheeple. Although if you look at the conspiracy theory believers, they define sheeple. I mean, that is the definition of sheeple.

40:37It's the ultimate irony.

40:39Brené Brown:Yeah. People following science and getting vaccines, you know, come on. Like, I don't know. So it's, there's also a, when we're afraid and when vulnerability doesn't feel like an option because it means we could die or not be able to get out of bed, we want to put on armor that looks like bravado, that looks like resistance, that looks like, yeah, that looks like I will not keep, I am a rebel. The earth is flat. Yeah. And okay, that makes people feel secure. It gives them a sense of strength. It also connects them to a group. and this is your point about belonging. It connects them to a group where now they have special insider knowledge instead of feeling like they're just either the stupid masses or they're actually excluded.

41:40They're outsiders. Now they're possessing privileged information. It makes them feel important. They know things others don't and they reinforce each other's knowledge and then you get a group polarization effect.

41:51Brené Brown:That's it. And that is absolutely, every time I see something, including this naturopathic doctor who was standing in front of this stuff saying toxic products for newborns that I would never let in my house, I think immediately that's going to become a group of people that in your vibe words will feel like pals right away. They are hot wiring, connection, and palship. They are common enemy intimacy is what I call it in my work. Oh, that's such a good term for it. Common enemy intimacy. Intimacy. I don't know you. When shit gets hard, there's no way this relationship's going to stand up. We are never going to be, you know, the highest level of vibing in, you know, in vibe is companion, where we can lean on each other and into each other.

42:50Brené Brown:We will never be that. But right now there is a bolus, a hit, an endorphin hit of connection because we hate the same people and we believe the same wild shit and the rest of the world is fucked. And that makes us feel like inseparable allies too. That's it. Because we've got a common mission to take down this enemy or even just to protect ourselves against this enemy. That's it. Wow. Yeah. So when you come across this Instagram that's on our feeds every day, toxic products for newborns that I'd never let in my house, the seduction is not just, oh, I've got, you know, every one of us who's brought a newborn home is like, who in the hell trusted me with this thing?

43:39Brené Brown:Who let this happen? I mean, who in their right mind thinks that, you know, and I was going home with a baby and a pediatrician. And I was still like, we know nothing. This is not allowed. And so when I say, yeah, I'm not letting that toxic stuff in. I've got an immediate friend group. I'm in the non-toxic mother group. I'm in the non-vax mother group. It's not just vulnerability and deconstructing messaging and chasing sources. It is a primal need to belong. So it's not just what am I afraid of that makes me vulnerable? It's also what am I missing in my life from a group membership standpoint, from community, from connection?

44:28Brené Brown:Who are my people? Who are my people? Where can I find people? And I don't think if you choose your people to be a group of people that believe different things, that challenge around different things, that's not easy. No. No, it's not. But it's exactly what we should be trying to build, and it's something we could be setting up much earlier. This should be taught in schools. Oh, God, yes. I mean, I will trade trigonometry for protecting people against vulnerability. If I were designing a high school curriculum, I would say replace Trig with Statistics 101, which includes a whole module on how do people lie to you with facts, with data, or how do they even signal credibility when they don't have data to begin with?

45:17Yes.

45:18Brené Brown:And here's where Adam and I part ways. I would say take out Trig, replace it with an interesting class on in the sociology department on belonging, vulnerability and persuasion and have a tiny little statistics component. Can we do both? Two parts, year long, two semesters. Yes. We need to find another class to cancel. Mine's going to be more appealing, dude. Yeah. I'll give you a long list. Um, I actually do use algebra every now and then, so I can't do geometry. No. Yeah. I could let it go. No. Geometry is really important. Pickleball. Sorry. Calculus. I don't think anybody needs calculus. No, no.

46:00Brené Brown:Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Yeah. All right. This was, thank you for, thank you for like, I just feel like we got on a roller coaster and you were like, what kind of ride is this? And I said, don't worry. Let's go. Buckle up. Here we are. Buckle up. And one other book for anybody who wants to dig more into this, Sander von der Linden published a book called Foolproof. And it's a whole book about the psychology of why we fall for misinformation and how to build immunity. And we will put that in the show notes too. Okay. And before we close, you're not going to like this, but I don't care. I just have to talk about this.

46:41Oh, no, I'm going to love this. Allison published Lump. Love it. And October, Brene, I got to say, actually, your timing is impeccable because October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month.

46:52Brené Brown:I just want to say to everyone that y 'all know I'm a huge poetry person. And I do not say this easily because I could say a lot of nice things about the book and not say this. I never thought as an adult that I would read a new book that pushed its way into my top 10 books of poetry of all time. And Lump did it. And the subtitle is A Memoir in Ineloquent Reflections. And it is a collection of poetry about, is it fair to say, Alison's breast cancer diagnosis, her healing, her... how would you describe it? Yeah, I think that's a great description of it. I mean, I loved it so much that I married her.

47:42But not necessarily in that order, but there's so many things I could say, but it meant so much to both of us that you read it, let alone that you're removed by it. And yeah, I think when she was going through diagnosis, treatment, recovery, you know even now we're about to celebrate six years all clear it was really hard to talk about and she found that writing poetry and prose really helped her process the experience and she basically tried to write the book that she wanted to read when she was going through all this and i'm thrilled for her that it's out in the world and i'm really hoping that that anybody who has to either go through a difficult illness themselves or care for a loved one or just wants to understand an experience they haven't lived better will benefit from reading it.

48:35Yeah.

48:35Brené Brown:I mean, when I read it, I just emailed Allison right away and just said, the first words that came to me is, this book is what poetry is for. Like, this is, yeah, no, This is, God, I laughed. It is so freaking irreverent. And then I sobbed and I saw myself in it and I saw people that I love in it. And it's just lump right here. Alison Sweet Grant, like it's beautiful. So I wanted to say it because it's true. Well, thank you. You are such a giver, Brene. Sometimes. Thanks for getting on the ride with me today. It was fun in real time to make all these connections. For me too, as always.

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50:55Brené Brown:Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.