BONUS | The Incredible Story of Medal of Honor Recipient Kyle Carpenter

0:00Ryan Holiday: So I just got back from two weeks in New Zealand and Australia. I was on tour for Daily Stoic Live and we stayed in two different places in Bondi Beach. I would wake up every morning, go for a long run. And it's been one of my favorite places for like a decade and a half. Actually, it made me think while I was there that the very first time that my wife and I went to Australia, part of how we paid for that trip was we listed our house on Airbnb while we were gone. That was something we would do back then, especially as I was making that transition from marketing, my corporate career to writing, is that when I would travel for talks, we would list our house on Airbnb.

0:35Ryan Holiday: We had this little house in East Austin, and that's how we covered the mortgages. When we were gone, people would stay in it while we were out of town. If you have space and you're going to be away, maybe that can be a memorable place for someone else to stay. Your home might be worth more than you think, and you can find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. That moment of waking up, my first thought was completely opposite of the last one that I had. And I thought, no way. I cannot believe I survived that. In that moment, are you thinking, hey, this is my job? Are you thinking this is my friend?

1:11Do you think anything at all? Unofficially, I would say the only thing that I remember before. Lastly, I said a quick prayer for forgiveness for anything I had done wrong in my life. And I faded from consciousness in the world for what I thought was the last time.

1:25Ryan Holiday: Our first guest is the only, only the second living Marine since Vietnam to receive the Medal of Honor. Corporal William Kyle Carpenter should not be alive today, but the fact that he is gives us reason to trust that there is indeed a bigger plan. When the grenade detonated, his body absorbed the brunt of the blast, severely wounding him, but saving the life of his fellow Marine. All I know is that I want to make the greatest impact on the world that I can with the time that I have. You don't know what life is preparing you for. All you can really do is be ready for something that you can't even conceive of.

2:03That perspective, which if I had to summarize my journey in one word, it would be that. Foundationally, it's, well, I'm here when I thought that I wasn't going to be.

2:12Ryan Holiday: We don't think of courage as like endurance, but it's that too. I could hang my feet off the edge. I could work on standing. I could stand. I could take a single step. I could take a single step. I could walk. If I could walk, I could run. You can do real hard shit. Look at where you were when you started. Look at where you are now. That's proof of concept.

2:37Ryan Holiday: Do you know the story of Tom Hutner? Do you know who that is? He won the Medal of Honor in Korea. I just spent the past two days with him or not, not him, his son, his son. No way. Tom Hunter. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. He is a exceptional individual, just like, you know, his father. And was his son in the service too? Or what's his, what does his son do? No, he was not. But yeah, two very successful sons. And now he helps with Medal of Honor related endeavors and just helping us in our mission. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you like a connection, if you don't already have one, he would. I don't. Because I just read this book about him and I saw that the picture was taken by Tom Hutner Jr.

3:19Ryan Holiday: And I was like, oh, so I didn't know the sun existed. But I'm fascinated by the story. It's in the book that I'm doing now. Wow. How crazy. Yeah. So for people who don't know, he's a pilot in Korea. Correct. And he's a wingman to Jesse Brown, who's the first black pilot in the Navy. and brown takes a shot to his oil tank has to crash in this field in the chosen reservoir and then as they're circling he sees that he he doesn't get out of the plane because you couldn't eject they're too low this is the crazy thing so right right before they took off the skipper of the ship goes if anyone goes down he's like i'll court-martial anyone who tries to rescue them because he's like, we can't afford to lose two planes and two pilots.

4:07Ryan Holiday: Right. Right. He's like, wait for a helicopter. We will send a helicopter. I don't want anyone trying to rescue anyone. And then Hudner sees his friend go down and immediately disregards the orders and crashes his plane in this snowy field in the Chosin Reservoir and attempts to rescue Brown from the plane, who's like hopelessly stuck in there and Brown's last words are, you know, tell my wife I love her. I wanted to ask you about it because I'm fascinated with this story, like that decision, that decision to do the craziest thing that a person could do. You're one of the handful of people who might have some insight into that thought process.

4:53I mean, what a small world and how unbelievable that this is the first topic. I have so many questions about this now. I just spent two days with him. But, you know, obviously it was a split second decision out of love for his friend and fellow service member. But as I've examined just, you know, for me personally, my journey in those five seconds on the roof, I feel like just like a championship on the football field or getting an A on a test, very few things can be executed in the moment that they are without planning or thought or preparation before. Yeah. And so I feel like although the entire world only examines those five seconds on the roof, you know, I feel that, you know, one, I was just as a recipient and all of my fellow recipients will say, we just happened to be in that moment, in that time and place.

5:59And we had the opportunity to step up the way we did. Right. I think that's the beautiful thing about the human spirit is that anyone can step up in a time of need, no matter how how small or how large of an act. But those moments on the roof were a culmination of the love and support throughout my life that I received from my parents. And I think a lot of people think, oh, Marine Corps, combat oriented, you know, hardcore, whatever you think when you think of Marines, good or bad. Everyone thinks it's all about training. Yeah. And every day we're just throwing grenades around the place, fake grenades.

6:38And hey, who's going to jump on it? And like fumble recovery drills on a football team.

6:43Ryan Holiday: You're practicing this thing over and over again. But like, is that a thing that you'd actually like? Was there ever a moment where that was a thing you had to consider doing? We do training with grenades, and I think it's just a byproduct of being in uniform and training with grenades that you think about things like that. And just in general, going into combat, am I going to be able to step up the way that I need to? Am I going to step up instead of back down when the bullets start flying? But it was never a tangible moment of training. I guess that's what I'm curious about. Is it a conscious decision or is it something more like the training and the moment and the stories and the tradition takes over?

7:37Ryan Holiday: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sometimes you get hit with a grenade. You lose your train of thought. But so many people think it's training. But an amazing aspect of the Marine Corps, especially through boot camp, is through the difficult moments of training, when you're worn down, when you've been out training and you're tired and you're hungry and you've been exposed to the elements for days on end. And your drill instructors, it's a very intentional part of boot camp that in between those moments, they'll sit you down and they teach you about the history of the Marine Corps. Right. Those that came before you, those stories of unfathomable courage.

8:15I mean, I remember sitting there in boot camp during the crucible, our big final event before we received our Eagle Globe and anchor. I believe I speak for all of us when sitting there, I just thought, I mean, who could do something like this? And now I understand more, not from my action, but just from being a Marine and having that time of service, but just unfathomable acts of courage from all branches. But Marine Corps aside, just those that at 17, 18 years old in World War II, when they knew that the chances of making it onto the beach, making it to the beach even, and then past the beach and surviving what lay ahead were such a minuscule chance.

9:03Right. And when those doors open, they charge for it anyway. Right. And, you know, I think a lot of people just in conversations I've had or just, you know, the love and support that I'm so humbled to be given. You know, sometimes it seems like, oh, Kyle, the first guy in history that jumped on a grenade. But you look back at every conflict and there are those that that, you know, Grenader not not only went above and beyond, but gave that last full measure of devotion for each other or for a purpose greater than themselves or any individual. And so that's why I say I was just happened to be on that roof and in those moments.

9:51But again, it was a culmination of so many different things in my life for my family, coaches on the athletic fields growing up. And I think ultimately, I'm just so thankful that I reacted the way I did. Now, granted, I wish I could have taken every bit of that grenade, but at least I can live my life and not always wonder why I didn't or if I could have. Why do you mean you wish you took every bit of it? Because the Marine that I was with, my best friend, he was injured as well. Oh. So I wish I could have taken every bit of that blast. But, you know, I still I feel like gave my best effort. And so now I can live my life not wondering, but just being proud that I was able to step up as the Marine and the friend that I needed to be in that moment.

10:48But also going back to, you know, those moments in boot camp to have tried my best to uphold the legacy and the the half that the Marines that came before me laid with unfathomable amounts of courage and sacrifice.

11:09Ryan Holiday: I feel like the tradition is a huge part of it because, you know, your average person doesn't feel like they're maybe capable of doing that. And I think a big part of the training is not like, hey, how many pull-ups can you do and how far can you run and how much can you lift? Although that's obviously all part of it. But it's in the process of putting you through that and accepting you into the tradition that you feel like suddenly you're capable of or that you're an heir to this thing. Even though you're not actually related, you're all part of this lineage that goes back and includes every single one of those people.

11:45Ryan Holiday: Perfectly said, yes. And so in that moment, are you thinking, hey, this is my job? Are you thinking this is my friend? Do you think anything at all? Like in the book, it makes it sound like you kind of just a thing happened and then you woke up after and you're like, where's my face? Basically. So I'm just curious how much thinking is going on. Well, I should have thought I'm about to kick this thing right back off the roof. But strangely, and I appreciate you having my book and reading it. That's incredible. So strangely, I don't remember any of the moments leading up to the blast. Now, unofficially, which, you know, the Medal of Honor that that was awarded to me, although it's it never is and never will be an individual award or recognition.

12:37But that came from over two years and almost 300 pages of investigation.

12:43Ryan Holiday: It's not a thing they give lightly based on one person's opinion. Correct. You need multiple opinions. You need forensic blast evidence. And so, you know, they talked to me in the very beginning and I really had nothing helpful to contribute. But even if I did, I think it's important to note that if you are injured in whatever incident they are investigating, you can't be an eyewitness. Because if you have any sort of head trauma, obviously your facts might not be that accurate. Safe to say I had some head trauma. But I don't, you know, unofficially, I would say the only thing that I remember before wasn't really anything cognitive.

13:27Yeah. It was just, you know, knowing how you and your body feels. I remember almost as if I was an empty shell. I don't have any visual recollection. I just, I felt like I was on my knees and my body was falling forward. And then I felt like I got hit in the face really hard. but but my actual kind of somewhat coherent thoughts followed the blast and I remember being extremely confused and my vision was as if I was looking at a tv with no connection just white and gray static my ears are ringing extremely loud just as they are this very moment that we're doing this podcast and oh they just they just remain ringing always yeah yeah Yeah, which is, you know, can be daunting at times, but just got to remain focused.

14:25And, you know, every day is driving on, driving on for the mission. But after I felt like I got hit really hard in the face, that was followed by extreme confusion and disorientation. So much so that that I was trying to just to get a grasp of where I was and what happened. And I've been in Afghanistan for over four months now. And so my first thought was, okay, I'm pretty sure I was in Afghanistan. The last thing I can remember, I was on a roof, but what could have injured me this bad on a roof? And then I thought maybe I got off of the roof, went on a foot patrol because the vast majority of our injuries over there, at least for my unit at the time, was stepping on IEDs.

15:17Right. Because we were so far out in rural territory behind enemy lines. We had to get helicoptered in and we had no vehicles. So everyone thinks military nowadays, we always have vehicles to roll around in. But very few roads to where we were and the roads that were there were more pedestrian walkways, paths for livestock. So you don't have to go through the fields and damage crops. And they wouldn't support heavily armored vehicles. And before we got there, they had tried that and the banks of the river would collapse and Marines were drowning from being trapped in these armored vehicles. So we only had feet everywhere we went, you know, traditional Marine style.

16:04Part of the tradition also. Right. Yeah, exactly. And so I thought maybe I went on a patrol, stepped on an IED and just the roof is the last thing I can remember. and that thought process was interrupted by, of course, what I thought was my buddies messing with me because Marines and service members are experts at messing with each other. It's kind of like our secondary job. And I thought, man, you know, whatever's happened, I can't believe in this banged up state that I'm in that my buddies are pouring warm water all over me. And that fragmented piece allowed the other ones to kind of fall into place.

16:45And I realized like, oh man, whatever's happened, my buddies aren't messing with me and that's not warm water. I'm profusely bleeding out. And so at that moment, you know, while getting just, I would say tired, but that would be an understatement. It's probably the life leaving your body. Just drained, draining to and from your core. Just hard to describe. But at that moment, when I realized that, I knew that was it. I thought about my family, how devastated my mom was going to be when that government car pulled into the driveway or those two Marines in uniform knocked on the front door to tell my family I would not be coming home alive.

17:33And lastly, I said a quick prayer for forgiveness for anything I had done wrong in my life. And I faded from consciousness in the world for what I thought was the last time. And so you thought you're dying. I knew certain without a doubt that that was it. And, you know, I couldn't feel my face except for it to get a little graphic here. I remember when I first woke up, I was trying to, I was trying to feel my mouth or my jaw with my tongue, but nothing was there. And, and so, but these final moments, you know, I was kind of, cause I couldn't feel my face. I, I really didn't have that deep of sense of what was going on, but I remember kind of crying a little bit in my head, not because it wasn't, why am I here?

18:34You know, why did I even do this? Why am I in this position? It was more just, you know, I just turned 21 over there on my birthday, crawling through a field, getting shot at thinking, man, I hope one day I can get my first cold legal beer, you know? Yeah, legal. Yeah. But I just turned 21 and it was more just... The heaviness of the moment? The heaviness of the moment and maybe in some sort of subtle way, just knowing that, you know, this is it. And I just... And I guess I don't get to experience the rest of my life. Sure. But I now in hindsight, I still wouldn't change anything because I truly felt in my heart and I knew and I saw every day that we were there just helping a fellow struggling human being.

19:30With that said, the world faded away. I thought that was it. And to my very unexpected and pleasant surprise, I woke up about five weeks later. And instead of a hot, dusty rooftop, it was a strange hospital room with Christmas stockings hanging on the wall beside my bed and about three or four inches of snow outside on my window pane. But that moment of waking up, my first thought was completely opposite of the last one that I had. And I thought, no way. I cannot believe I survived that. And but that moment, you know, although I had three years left of a recovery, 40 to 50 plus surgeries, that moment really began this journey of self-discovery purpose and perspective that I've been on.

20:25It's crazy to say, but, you know, about 15 years now.

20:30Ryan Holiday: Look, it's been a while since I've had to fill out an expense report. That's one of the perks of not having a job. But I don't remember enjoying the experience. And certainly, I don't want my employees to waste a bunch of their time doing it. You know, you got to find the receipt. You got to guess what category it goes in. Then finance is asking you, well, what about this? Or are you sure this was proper? Or, you know, what if you didn't have to do any of that? It's bad use of your time. that's bad use of company time. Expense reports are tedious. It's not what I want my employees doing. Well, Ramp makes collecting and submitting expenses super simple.

21:08Ryan Holiday: With Ramp, expenses submit themselves. You just text or email your receipt and Ramp categorizes codes and submits it. And when you book business travel with Ramp, they find the best flights and hotels you're actually allowed to book. You don't find out later that your company's only partially going to cover it. Ramp is the only finance platform that employees and finance teams both rave about, and companies have saved over$12 billion with Ramp. I think every business owner, every employee is trying to find tools that reduce the amount of admin process that they have to go through, and Ramp helps you do that.

21:41Ryan Holiday: Ramp helps your team save time with one of those most tedious admin tasks. Time is money. Save both with Ramp. New customers get$250 off at ramp.com slash daily stoic. Go to ramp.com slash daily stoic. Today's sponsor is 80 ,000 hours. You have 80 ,000 hours in your career, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for 40 years. That's a lot of time. Your career is the biggest opportunity you have to make if you want to make a positive impact on the world. Because like, look, if you're a talented person, if you have talents, how you direct those talents and what you direct those talents at, it really matters.

22:21Ryan Holiday: especially if cumulatively we all do this. If you want advice that's evidence-based, comes from an impartial perspective, you should check out 80 ,000 Hours. It's a nonprofit founded by Will McGaskill, who I've known forever. He's an Oxford philosopher. He was a guest on the Daily Stoic podcast. And they've spent the last decade looking at the best available evidence on how to have a fulfilling career. And their free 80 ,000 Hours career guide is full of concrete, practical advice to help you create a full career plan that you feel confident in. They've got a great podcast, the 80 ,000 Hours podcast.

22:57Ryan Holiday: And basically what they're trying to do is help people have not just meaningful careers, but impactful careers. How to have positive impact on the world. And you can find all episodes of the 80 ,000 Hours podcast over at 80 ,000hours.org. slash stoic. That's 8-0-0-0-0-hours.org slash stoic. What's crazy to me is like, you know, you read the Medal of Honor citations, whether it's for Hutner or for you or for anyone, there's like the split second decision, right? To go on a grenade, to crash the plane, to do the thing. And that's what we call courage, right? Like that moment. But I mean, And you're talking about like your ears are still ringing from the event 15 years later.

23:46Ryan Holiday: Like that's a day-to-day thing that you have to deal with. I think about he crashes the plane. Then he basically wakes up and he's like, holy shit, I survived the landing. It might not work, right? And he, you know, so he kind of wakes up and then he's like, well, shit, now I'm down here, right? And now that's actually the hard part. Surrounded by 100 plus thousand. Totally. Yeah. He's at the sprint across this field. all he has is a service revolver even even if he had just crashed in alaska it would have been bad like he's exposed to the elements like he could have frozen to that and so now and now the hard part like now the actually courageous difficult thing comes now like what's he going to do and he obviously he's not thought through well then i crash and then the helicopter pilot will come like he's not thinking about that i think why it's courage is that it's this leap into the dark You don't know how it's going to work out or that it's going to work out.

24:44Ryan Holiday: In your case, you're going on the ground. You don't know whether you're going to get there in time or not. You don't know whether you're going to survive or not. And then you're certainly not able to go like, and then three years in the hospital and then learning to do this again and feeling this again. And we almost overemphasize which is the most impressive part of the experience. Like, what's the real ordeal? Is it the raising your hand? Is it, you know, that part? Or is it all the stuff that comes after? We don't think of courage as like endurance, but it's that too. That was very well said, Ryan.

25:21And I could not agree more. And I appreciate you recognizing that because, you know, I'm most proud of what I've done after the blast. And whether that's the battle through recovery or just, you know, all the way to the marathons or just, you know, continuing to push myself into that unknown.

25:45Ryan Holiday: There's this line from Seneca that I think about. He says, sometimes even to live is an act of courage. You know, just the. Absolutely. The keeping going. Again, we think of the courage as these sort of punctuated moments and be it a battle or the firefighter that runs into a burning building or whatever. And that's obviously one part of it. But then the other part is the waking up the next day and the day after and the day after when you're dealing with the consequences of those couple of seconds that you did the thing. Yeah, absolutely. And when I experienced those final moments and to wake up to this unexpected bonus round that I'm living now, of course, there are difficult days.

26:30There are long, dark, scary and painful nights through the hospital. And even out of the hospital, life is hard. It's a hard earned journey. But to have experienced those final moments and to wake up, I can't help but to not try to make the most of it.

26:53Ryan Holiday: Yeah. I talked to one of the Vietnam POWs and he was saying, you know, any morning you wake up and the locks on the inside of the door, that's a good day. Wow. You know, because they spent seven years with the lock on the wrong side of the door, right? They can't get out. And I think that's, you appreciate that. It makes sense. But I do wonder like how how transferable and sustainable is that perspective? Right. Like so you have this moment of courage. You do this thing like one thing you could take from that is like anything that's not getting blown up by a grenade is better than this. Right.

27:29Ryan Holiday: Or anything is better than not getting blown up by a grenade. But I imagine you're still like, what the fuck is this traffic? Like how quickly does just the regular frustrations of life kick in or do you find you're able to maintain that perspective? No, that's a great point. And yeah, of course, you know, little things in life that shouldn't, you know, still kind of get to you sometimes. But I think for anyone, grenade aside, I think it's extremely important to always work on and be able to refocus on that perspective. Yeah. The things that really matter. And, you know, just from the stoicism side of things to understand what's in your control and out of your control.

28:24That's been extremely helpful for me because throughout my recovery, you know, I went from being in the best shape of my life, carrying a machine gun in Afghanistan, you know, 18 minute, three miles. And just and always having a plan as a Marine, whether that is what today holds or what this specific patrol holds. You know, we knew what routes we were taking. We knew our our points that that we needed to hit and what village we were going to and what the mission was. But when I woke up. It was complete opposite. Yeah. You know, at first I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath. And I remember just laying there on my side and, you know, all the beeping machines are so annoying.

29:19It gets kind of, you know, starts to wear on you almost. And, you know, in the beginning when my pain spiked or I was having difficulty with whatever it was, the machines will start going off and then you got to get yourself back under control and you got to calm your heart rate. And so at first I didn't know if I could make it to that next breath or not, which a machine was helping me at first. But when I got off that, didn't know if the 40 or 50 surgeries, every single one going into it, you do the pre-op, you're there at 4 a.m., you do the pre-op, you do the surgery. Some of them were nerve transplants or transfers, which take two to four months to make that connection regenerate.

30:08So you have to stay persistent and you have to keep working at it. Even though nothing is happening, you have to just hope and trust that your hard work and your focus and dedication will eventually allow that nerve to reconnect. But, you know, then it was I didn't know if the next surgery would take. And another aspect is when something catastrophic happens or you face extreme adversity, you know, a tough lesson is that the world keeps spinning. Yeah. Yeah.

30:38Ryan Holiday: Understandably so, obviously, you know, people care a lot after it happens and then they go back to their lives. Yeah. Which which, you know, I understand it's the way it is. But all of my friends who I who didn't go into the military were living their best life in college. And all of my buddies who thankfully did not get injured were still in Afghanistan together operating. But my life was a complete, you know, unknown, I guess. Yeah. And 21, 22 year olds are not. great at patience and being told what to do, you know, and you're just like, on top of all that, you're just like, yeah, you want to go back to your life and you can't.

31:17Yep. Yep. I guess as time went on, you know, I had to, I had to grapple with that.

31:24Ryan Holiday: Yeah. And, you know, although I realized that you don't have to have a perfect plan. You just have to be willing to say, you know, my, I guess, mantra kind of became just keep working hard. Try to be a good person. Do the best you can and help help others around you. And, you know, it's got to it's got to to lead you somewhere good. It's got to lead you to that light at the end of the tunnel. I think that's right. Because look, I wrote this book, The obstacles away. And I think people, it's meant something to people. And I think, you know, generally the idea is true that there's an opportunity in everything, but that can feel very flippant to someone who, you know, just found out they have cancer or somebody who just got blown up by a grenade.

32:17Ryan Holiday: Like I thought you had this, you actually have this beautiful note in the acknowledgements that really hit me, which I think is very well said. You said, the lessons of life, silver linings and perspective that I share in this book did not come easily or quickly. At times, silver linings only become apparent because I was forced to search through the darkness and perspectives only became clear after years of deep thought and personal growth. These lessons originated from pain and suffering, but sometimes the most difficult struggles teach us the most beautiful lessons. I imagine in many ways, the recovery in the hospital was the most challenging part personally, emotionally, physically, because it not just goes on and on, but you have time to think about it and feel sorry for yourself and be angry and hope and despair.

33:12Ryan Holiday: Now, all of a sudden, the real emotions and the struggle and the having to figure out what this means and what you're going to do about it, that's like your problem in a way that it's not in five seconds on a roof in Afghanistan. Yeah, absolutely. The mental side of it, emotional side of it, but also how am I going to do buttons now? Which is maybe I went from the Taliban being my enemy to buttons being my biggest enemy now. So the physical side of it as well. But like so many things in life, there is two sides to that story. There was the daunting, the unknown, the difficult side of it. But there was the side that, although it's kind of heavy to be told, hey, you have three more years left here for us to kind of put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

34:10But that also gave me time to think about all of that. To think about that perspective, which if I had to summarize my journey in one word, it would be that because perspective, correct. Because I could look at, you know, it's always foundationally it's, well, I'm here. Yeah. When I thought that I wasn't going to be. You shouldn't be. Correct. And some of this came from those I recovered with.

34:41Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Quadruple amputees, triple amputees with their newborn sitting on what's left of their legs, you know, zooming off to therapy every day with a smile on their face. And so, you know, it gave me the time to think, hey, my arms might be super banged up, but I still have them. Yeah. Most of my body might be shredded to pieces, but I still have two good legs that can get me up and inch me forward. And it's not about the limbs. I think just what I'm saying is it's about the mindset and looking at what you have compared to what you don't have. And I think that comparison, it can do wonders for you and take you amazing places, or that comparison can become the thief of joy.

35:36And it can turn you into a perpetually pessimistic person. And also, you know, I saw in the hospital and before I say this, I want to note that I think struggle, adversity and most things in life should never be compared. Yeah. You know, my buddy Andy said, you know, I've done more than some and less than others. Yeah. And that really stuck with me. But with that said, and again, not comparing, but I saw that there were those in the hospital with me because 2010 was a very violent year in Afghanistan. most of the hospital rooms, I think, except for mine, because I was one of the ones in the worst shape.

36:25I needed a one-to-one. I needed kind of some other stuff going on in my room, a lot of machines, but every single room had two beds and two patients in it. And there was even a time where the least injured were out in the hallways. And so a lot of casualties were there and a lot of wounded warriors recovering, but I saw that there were some that had, you know, and all struggle is, is relative, but there were some that had much more minor injuries, but they just never left the hospital. Right. And, and I saw that their mindset and not their injuries were holding them back. And so, although of course I had terrible days and painful days and days where, you know, I wondered if I was going to be able to keep pushing forward.

37:25Although I kind of in a way, I didn't feel like I had a choice because there were so many people pouring their love and their hearts and everything they had into getting me better. But, you know, in life you can learn from people, good and bad. You can take good and bad examples and lessons from people and seeing that just, I guess, kind of planted a seed that, hey, one thing I have, you know, I might not have functioning limbs. I might've lost my eye. Most of my teeth are blown out. But one thing I have is my mindset, is my attitude, and is my care for myself and wanting to get better for myself and for those around me.

38:16I'm thankful through all the medication and injuries that I kind of had that insight because it never left me. Do you know who Epictetus was, the Stoke philosopher?

38:26Ryan Holiday: Absolutely. So, you know, Epictetus is tortured by his, he's a slave, but he has this cruel master who tortures him. He breaks his leg at one point. And so he has this, he's crippled the rest of his life, which is that, I guess the term they would use then. And, you know, he said that, you know, we have, so, so he's, he's coming at this, not from like some tenured academic perch, but like a dude who really suffered and went through stuff. And his thing was that we, every situation has two handles. You know, we get to decide what we're going to try to pick it up by. And yeah, you can, you can grab the handle that says, hey, I'm alive.

39:02Ryan Holiday: This is good. Or you can grab the handle of like, why am I alive? This is horrible. And that handles kind of everything. The lens through which we decide to interpret the events or the position we're in is kind of the first step. Because if you get that one wrong, all the other steps are really hard. I feel like if you're like, I was singled out. This is horrible. This is insurmountable. You can tell yourself a story that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now, just telling yourself it's wonderful and I'm never going to suffer again and it's all going to great. And that's the thing that those Vietnam prisoners talked about.

39:43Ryan Holiday: The story you're telling yourself is I'm going to be home by Christmas. This is going to be over really soon. That's also a bad handle because life doesn't really care that that's what you think. The key is sort of picking something that's both hopeful, but also got a kind of a grit and a determination to it. That's like, as you said, like, I just know I'm not quitting because as long as these people are helping me, I'm not going to give up. That's, that's not like, oh, you know, if you get in a car accident and the doctors say you're never going to walk again, just because you go away, I'm going to walk again.

40:20Ryan Holiday: Sometimes that works, but not always. That's not magically going to give you your legs back. Yeah. There needs to be, you know, accepting of reality in there as well. But I think there's tremendous power. And I would say that's even an understatement to embracing the struggle. Yeah. And, you know, in the beginning to embrace the unknown allowed me to, to step onto those yellow footprints at bootcamp to try to become a Marine and really a life of services is especially in the military. It's kind of like an entire journey, whether that's four years or a whole career of unknown. And then through my recovery and just life in general is, is an unknown journey.

41:10You can, you know, prepare yourself. You can, you can try to learn and to become resilient throughout the difficult journey. But you never really know what the day or what life in the big picture is going to hold. But, you know, I joined the Marine Corps to discover who I could really become and who I really was. And they say, be careful what you wish for sometimes.

41:41Ryan Holiday: You probably thought that was you were going to find out who that was, you know, in battle, not in a hospital room. But one led to the other. And that's you don't really know. That's what I've been thinking about on this book that I'm right now. So I'm writing a book about Stockdale. and you know Stockdale goes to the academy he thinks he's enlisting in world war ii he misses world war ii then he thinks he's going to fight in Korea like all his buddies do like Hudner wins the medal of honor in Korea and then he like I have this I have his orders where he's like begging to be sent to Korea and they're like it would be detrimental to your unit if we sent you to Korea.

42:22Ryan Holiday: And so he does. So he keeps thinking that he's missing his moment. Right. Then he goes to test pilot school and he thinks, you know, that's this is my thing. And then, you know, Jaeger breaks the sound barrier. He's not one of those. Then he misses like astronaut school and he thinks he's, you know, he keeps any. But he doesn't know because you can't know that it's actually preparing him for this day in 1965 when he gets shot down. And then he can't even conceive then of what the next seven years are going to mean. But you don't know what life is preparing you for. All you can really do is be ready for something that you can't even conceive of.

43:10Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, whether it's through that journey or that moment that you're shot down, you become a POW. You know, I encourage people when I speak or when I have engagements on the road to embrace that struggle.

43:28Ryan Holiday: Yeah. One, I think to be realistic that, you know, life is a very difficult journey at times. Sure. But it's also equally as beautiful. And most importantly, it's worth it. And it's worth being here because those moments are impossible to describe how immediately, I won't even say dark, just avoid things become. But, you know, to know that that life is difficult and when you face that adversity to embrace it. Yeah. And you really I mean, in a way, I feel like you don't have another choice. I mean, if you want to sit exactly where you are right now or right in that moment of adversity for the rest of your life, that's really the only other option.

44:21But to embrace the struggle and understand that there's always a silver lining, there's always that light at the end of the tunnel. And when you reach that, which, you know, everyone heals in their own time, in their own way. So I'm not telling you, I'm not one of those that say, oh, just, you know, brush it off, get back up and keep going. I mean, sometimes it takes an entire life to try to continue to get better. Sometimes it is just inching or crawling forward. but in the right time to know that when you move forward, you hold on those silver linings, you reach that light at the end of the tunnel, you will not only look back and be proud of yourself, you'll realize that the journey was worth it.

45:08And you will be the strongest, more perspective-driven, more grateful version of yourself And ultimately in that moment, you know, it's never, there's never a finish line, but in that moment, when you're on the other side, you'll realize that you're the best version of yourself.

45:30Ryan Holiday: And don't you think this is like, I think having a physical practice is a metaphor for that, right? Every time I run, every time I jump in cold water, every time I lift weights or whatever, I don't want to do it, but I'm glad after that I did it. Right. It's it's it's the feeling afterward that the shitty part is for. And it's not just like, oh, hey, the endorphins, you know, you do the thing and then you get a little rush of endorphins at the end. Sometimes you don't you don't feel anything at the end, but tired or whatever. Yeah. But like six months later, when you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror and you're like, I am in the shape that I want to be, or you have to pick up something heavy and you can pick it up because you did the work.

46:14Ryan Holiday: That's, that's what it is. And yeah, I think that's the metaphor for life is like in the shitty moments. And it's not just in your own life. It's like every relationship has these dips and the good parts in the relationship are never those dips. there at some point after those dips, if you don't quit and, and just knowing like you get through the hard thing because of what's on the other side of the hard thing. Absolutely. And, or to, you know, cross that finish line of whatever you're working towards and to know that you stayed consistent and driven and you got out and did the things that you needed to do.

46:57And this is a race or this is an accomplishment in life. Yeah. Or rehab or whatever. That you stayed on the path. And it's okay to veer sometimes, but you stay on the path. You stay, you know, committed to yourself most importantly. And you cross that finish line, whatever that is. I think, you know, it's hard to describe those moments because, you know, they're yours and they're yours alone. But, you know, to look back and for me, one of the most pivotal moments, aside from going with a big group of Wonder Warriors to jump out of a good airplane when we were in the hospital together, which, you know, brought great value, you know, because my once non-existent beating heart, you know, was beating.

47:49And I realized that I was still I saw a lot of surgeries left. I was still extremely banged up. My arms didn't work. I didn't have any teeth. But, you know, to to have gone skydiving that time in the hospital, you know, you went skydiving while you're still in the hospital. Like, oh, yeah, me and my buddies had to get our doctors to sign permission slips. I think I told my mom after. But, yeah, I mean, it's crazy. the doctors will say, well, if it doesn't injure you any further, hopefully, and you are X amount of time, you know, away from a surgery and it's going to be good for your spirits, then you can do it.

48:30And so we went skydiving and it just, it was one of those pivotal moments that just showed me and kind of re-energized me that, hey, might be a little banged up, but I'm still here. I still have life and, and, you know, I can still get after it like a Marine in a way. But it really was when I crossed the finish line in my first marathon. Yeah. Because it was a very emotional moment because I had set that goal of a marathon when I had just come off the ventilator. I couldn't, I couldn't do anything on my own. I mean, I needed a team of six to eight people. They had to make an announcement on the floor for people to come hold all my tubes and help me just go to the bathroom in bed.

49:18laying there in the bed and thinking to yourself, which is pretty much all you can do in the state that I was in. But I thought, you know, what is something that down the road I could attempt or if accomplished that would show me that I wasn't just still here. I wasn't just still Kyle, but somehow it showed me that I was actually better and stronger than I was before. And I I thought, well, you know, I've never ran a marathon before. And as comical and unrealistic as it seemed at the time, you know, I'd already realized that if I could sit up in bed, which is a monumental task after you've been unconscious and your body's been atrophying for five weeks.

50:02But I realized if I could sit up in bed, I could work on hanging my feet off the edge. If I could hang my feet off the edge, I could work on standing. If I could stand, I could take a single step. If I could take a single step, I could walk. If I could walk, I could run. And maybe one day I could attempt that marathon. And so when I crossed the finish line, so I ran the marathon in October and I medically retired and left the hospital that July. So just a few months later, safe to say I might still be recovering from that a little. From the marathon? Almost 10 years later. But when I crossed that finish line, all I could think about, cameras everywhere and millions of people and so much noise.

50:47But all I could really think about in the place that I was in was that hospital bed. Yeah. And I had proved to myself that I did it. And I remembered all of the surgeries and all of the therapy and all of the believing and hoping and kind of persistence through therapy every day that that allowed me to be in that moment. And beyond that, all of the people that helped me, those that resuscitated me off the battlefield and throughout the hospitals, because I was resuscitated three times by the time I got to Walter Reed.

51:23Ryan Holiday: And think even of the people who invented the technologies that made those things possible. Like, it's not just like, oh, hey, all the doctors you personally met. But just think about every person, all the trial and error, the people who didn't make it, you know, that made it possible. So at that moment when it happened to you, they weren't like, this is the end of the story. Yeah. And so not only just for me personally, that moment, but as time has gone on, I realized that from the moment I crossed that finish line for the rest of my life, and it doesn't have to be a marathon, but for the rest of my life, I realized after the fact that now I can tell people you can do it.

52:10Ryan Holiday: Right. And it's not because it sounds good or I read it in a book. I'm telling you because I know you can because I did it. Yeah. And that that was just a very powerful and kind of pivotal moment in my journey. Yeah, when you do hard things, one of the things you take out of them is you're, now you have evidence, not just belief, you have evidence that you're a person who can do hard things. And that, that's a huge gift. Because life is, one thing we know for certain is there will be more hard things in the future. big and small, but it's not going to go the way we want. And there's going to be moments just like you experience in a marathon where you're like, is this worth continuing?

52:55Ryan Holiday: Is it possible? You know, like, why does this suck so bad? You know, you have all those feelings and then you realize, yeah, mostly what you do is don't listen to those feelings. Like that's the main muscle you're building. Like you're obviously building muscles in your legs and arms when you run, but I think you're mainly listening. You're mainly developing the muscle that decides who's in charge. Like Seneca's is we treat the body rigorously so that it's not disobedient to the mind. It's like, no, no, no, I decide. And I imagine those muscles were already pretty good for you as you went through the process of becoming a Marine because that's mostly what they're teaching you is like, you can do real hard shit and look at where you were when you started.

53:35Ryan Holiday: Look at where you are now. That's proof of concept. But yeah. And how powerful the mind is. I think, yeah, that's important to understand that your mind is infinitely, it can be. Now, again, you have to work on it and it's a deliberate effort, but it can be stronger and more resilient than you could ever imagine. And it can carry the body and impact your journey of life. It can also be a doom loop. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And it can be a doom loop because you're making the wrong choices and you haven't learned the right lessons, you know, can also be a doom loop because it's medically, you know, malformed that it needs to be treated.

54:26Ryan Holiday: You know what I mean? Like that's, that's the other thing is it's like your mind is your friend and it's also your worst enemy. And knowing when to trust it and knowing when to be like, not only can I not trust it, I need to get help because I need to get something between me and these thoughts, whether it's a journal, whether it's asking someone for help or it's like, no, no, no, no. I need like medical intervention right now. And that's all that is kind of the same process, actually. And it's weird that we don't celebrate that as an act of courage also. There's a line in Meditations, which whenever I do military talks, I always bring up because it's one of the only instances where Mark Sewellius, who was a soldier, specifically talks about fighting.

55:15Ryan Holiday: He says, we're like soldiers storming a wall. He says, if you've fallen and you have to ask a comrade for help, so what? I think that so what line is fucking perfect. Because it's like when people ask us for help, like if your friend comes to you and says, I need help, you're not like, what a fucking pussy. You're like, dude, thanks. You know, I would love to help. Like you're like genuinely. And then we're struggling or we have doubts or we need help. And we're like, I don't want to bother anyone, you know, or I don't want them to look that way. I mean, even though we know objectively, that's not what their reaction is going to be.

55:55Exactly. Yeah. No, well said. As always, I mean, coming from the military culture, I mean, I guess I understand the toughness on Ask for Help, all of that. But coming from the patient and just human side of me, it's difficult to understand because everyone, if you are alive, you know that life is hard. Yeah. If you are alive, no matter who you are, where you're at in life, someone has helped pick you up when you stumble. Yeah. And everyone knowing how difficult life is at times, the adversity that everyone faces, it's the most understandable thing to need or ask for help.

56:44Ryan Holiday: Well, there's almost a selfishness to it, right? To not do it. It's like, this is their job. Maybe you picked this up in the hospital where it's like, their job is to get you what you need. You're harming yourself and them by not telling them what's going on. There's this instinct of shame where we hide or we go, oh, it's good or I'm okay. And it's like, you're fucking things up. And also, if you take it, which I think we should, that we have important work to do, we're an important part of the team, that we have important contributions we can make, by not getting better faster, by not asking for the help, by not getting back to full strength, you're depriving the world of yourself.

57:31Ryan Holiday: I think there's a way you could look at it. It's like, oh, this thing isn't like, oh, I'm being tough and I'm just going to do this on my own. By doing it on your own, you're actually acting in a selfish, destructive way because you're not able to do what you should be doing. Yeah, very true. And a disservice to not just yourself, but whether it's those wanting to help you, whether your family needs you to be better for them. If you are a teacher or you have influence over others or you're in charge of others in the workplace, it's not just you to get to think outside of yourself. Well, there is a lot of things and a lot of people that you affect.

58:17And so it's just, you know, that's why I say struggle should never be compared. And, you know, it's OK to struggle. It's normal to struggle. Everyone has since the beginning of time. Sure. You know, all the way back to the cavemen banging rocks together, struggling to get a fire going. And the world is a very daunting and complex and scary place to add to your own journey and your own struggles. So, yeah, I'm so glad this came up because, you know, if you're struggling in whatever way, whether it's asking just a friend or or being, I think it's important to spend time talking to yourself. Yeah.

58:59Which sometimes people look at me like, okay, this dude's kind of lost it. But, you know, to spend deliberate time to five minutes to talk to yourself. So you always are able to, as you said earlier, say, hey, this is just a tough day or this is temporary adversity that I know that I need, whether you do it or not, you know, to you. But these are the things that I probably need to do to get back on track or to get better or to say, hey, I'm feeling like I'm in a place that I've never really felt before. Or I'm feeling like it's getting a little more difficult to crawl out of this space that I'm in.

59:49and then understanding that, okay, this is different and maybe I do need, you know, to bring in a little bit bigger guns here to help me out.

1:00:00Ryan Holiday: Yeah, right. We recently bought our kids a Nintendo 64. It's crazy to think that the video game console from my childhood is in antique, but it is. It's vintage, certainly. And so we've been looking for games that I kind of vaguely remember. We've just been buying tons of stuff and now we're kind of getting into these old vintage games. Well, we've been shopping for vintage games on Whatnot. Whatnot is the leading live shopping platform. You get on the app and people are selling live from stores, garages, living rooms, warehouses, all over the country. And you can interact with the sellers. You can ask them questions, what kind of future inventory they're getting.

1:00:36Ryan Holiday: There's a vintage shop down the street from us in Bastrop and I go in there, hey, these are the things I like. Can you get me some of this? Right, you can have a good relationship with the person and find stuff you couldn't get just browsing random websites. Thousands of items are sold every minute on Whatnot because customers get to know the sellers and they see those products live. And for many sellers, it's gone from a side hustle to a full-time job since they're selling 10x on Whatnot than on other marketplaces. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the App Store, download and start selling right away.

1:01:10Ryan Holiday: I'm good at a lot of things. I am not good at fixing things. I prefer to be writing than, you know, fixing stuff around my house. Maybe my grandfather wouldn't like that or my dad wouldn't like that. But I like it. I like doing the things that I'm good at that are worth my time. Not running around trying to see what's wrong with my AC or why this electrical plug in the kitchen isn't working. You know, your homeowner's insurance doesn't cover a lot of the day-to-day wear and tear on your house. plumbing failures hvac electrical issues you're on your own for that and that's where home serve comes in it is a subscription for your home for as little as 4.99 a month they've got your back repairs hit fast and hard you know you're searching for a contractor whatever you could already be on the phone with home serves 24 7 hotline scheduling a repair it's super simple you choose a plan for your needs and your budget and when something on your plan goes wrong you They call the hotline and they start the repair process.

1:02:11Ryan Holiday: They've helped homeowners like you for 20 years with the trusted national network of 2 ,600 local contractors. Join millions of customers who trust HomeServe. For 50 % less your first year, go to homeserve.com. That's homeserve.com for 50 % less savings compared to renewal price void in Florida. Yeah, you wouldn't feel guilty calling in air support or something if that's what the battle demanded, right? That's what they're there for. And they're fucking raring to go. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then and then for some reason in life, we're like, like someone went to school to help you with this thing that you're like, I don't want to bother.

1:03:01It's crazy. It is. But, you know, it's a journey. And thankfully, you know, there are voices out there and I try to do my little part where I can. But I think it's, you know, up to those struggling, just like military veterans and civilians. There is that gap of, you know, lack of understanding. Yeah. And I tell veterans, you know, it's just as much up to us to educate the public and it's just as much up to the public to want to understand who we are and what we do and where we come from. Um, so, you know, it's up to you to get help, but all those voices that are, you know, in a good place in life or have gotten through that, those tough times that understand, you know, to continue to put the word out there that, you know, it's okay to be down and out.

1:03:53It's okay to get that help. But like, like so many things, you know, it's a team effort.

1:03:57Ryan Holiday: There's different kinds of courage, right? We celebrate physical courage, you know, that's what the Medal of Honor, that's what the Flying Cross is about. That's what most of the awards are. But I think about, right, so Tom Hudner wins the Medal of Honor for trying to save his friend Jesse Brown. I think of the moral courage to be the first black aviator in the Navy that doesn't want you. Oh, unfathomable. Right. And so that distinction between the physical and the moral courage, at the same level, it's like putting your ass on the line. You know, at the same level, it's like putting yourself out there in a deeply uncomfortable, at times dangerous situation where you don't know what the outcome is going to be.

1:04:41Ryan Holiday: Because it's not like, you know, I think that's something that we lie to ourselves about when we tell our history. We go like, you know, Jackie Robinson or Jesse Brown or Wes Brown is the first graduate of the Naval Academy. They weren't the first ones to try. You know what I mean? They were just the first ones who didn't get kicked out or driven out or intimidated out. So the courage is not just the moral courage. It's also the physical courage and the physical self-mastery. This is a dangerous thing that they did. And it was, again, not a thing in a moment, but a day-to-day showing up must have been incredible.

1:05:27Ryan Holiday: Just as you said, unfathomable is really the only word for it. Yeah. I mean, to make it to that point, to become that aviator, that graduate, you go back even further than that to just continue to survive. Yeah. But imagine dying for a country where you are legally not allowed to ride its buses or vote in its elections. Like the courage and faith and commitment is unfathomable. Again, the only word. Yeah. And just one of the many things that I guess makes me so patriotic is knowing those that went through all of that and still serve the country. You got treated so terribly, but you still were willing to raise your right hand for a country that didn't see your value yet.

1:06:23Yeah.

1:06:24Ryan Holiday: In a way, you believed in the country more than everyone else. In itself. Yeah. Yeah. Even when people weren't around you, giving you a hard time or making life difficult for you or, or making you feel devalued, even when you're on your own by yourself to know what you were going to have to make it through that next day. Yeah. And that next day and to wake up and kind of have that, you know, of course, it's a billion times more than this, but like that feeling of you're that new kid at the lunch table on the first day of school. And and that's on top of how scary it is to land on an aircraft carrier in a prop plane.

1:07:11Ryan Holiday: I mean, you know, like just the weight on top of the weight that's already the white guys are also like, you know, dealing with butterflies every fucking day. So then you put on top of that, they don't want me and they might not be helping me when I need it. You know, like I'm I have to sleep with one eye open. It's insane. Mm hmm. So like you were saying earlier, just not exactly the same, but the journey of, you know, persevering until that moment where it's just this amazing and powerful moment for yourself. but also all that came before you and everything you and, and those, you know, whether it's of your skin color, your culture, your family, you know, those that are the first to graduate from their family who it's not that their parents, you know, I, I was in the Marines with guys that first generation American, and it's not that their parents would have gone to school where They didn't want to, but they worked 15 hours a day, every single day, hard physical labor for their entire lives just to hopefully that next generation or their children to be able to have that moment.

1:08:34And like so many things, just like those moments on the roof, you know, everyone obviously talks to me and interviews me and documents my story. But that moment and my ceremony in D.C., all cameras are on me, but it's really a moment. It was a moment for us all. And the Medal of Honor, it's a very heavy and beautiful burden because it represents so much. It represents generations of courage and sacrifice. It represents those that not only never made it home, but those that are still guarded today at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Those Marines that were on the ground with me in Afghanistan, the children that were killed from trying to learn how to read.

1:09:26They got caught learning, trying to learn how to read. And the next day they were killed and thrown and discarded on the side of the road in a dried out river canal. Wow. Just represents ideals. Yeah.

1:09:42Ryan Holiday: Do you know what Truman would say when he would give a soldier the Medal of Honor? Because he gives it to Hudner. No. He would say, I would rather be getting this medal than be the one giving it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He would rather be the soldier who won the Medal of Honor than the president who got to give it, which is obviously an incredible thing to say. And I think it goes to your point about what actually represents the best. Is it the highest office or is it someone who lived up to the ideals. And then famously, like Congress, you know, knows about this. And towards the end of his presidency, there was this movement to see if there was a way to give Truman the Medal of Honor because he had served in World War I.

1:10:20Ryan Holiday: And he finds out about this and he's like, absolutely fucking not. You know, he's like, I have done nothing to deserve it, even though, you know, he famously had done quite a lot as president. But he was like, he believed in it so much that the idea that they would be bending the rules or making an exception or devaluing the thing to make a political statement, he was just like, absolutely not. Even though at some level, he probably wanted it more than anything. I just think that's so perfect. Yeah. Yeah. So what has the life been like for you now? I mean, on some level, I'm sure you wake up, you're grateful.

1:11:00Ryan Holiday: And then you're also like, and what am I going to do today? Yeah. Yeah. Like everyone else, it's still an ongoing experiment and figuring it out. I can't say one specific thing that I do all the time. But I just mean the thing you wanted to do really badly, you can't do that anymore. That is correct. But I think that's the beautiful thing about service and just wanting to make a positive impact on people around you in the world. That can happen in an unlimited number of ways. Yeah. And so, you know, whether you're just, you know, the average person out there or a veteran going through transition, there is always a next chapter and another path.

1:11:50I think sometimes it's just spending that time with yourself, thinking about things deeply, and you don't have to have the perfect plan, but just narrowing down, you know, whether it's what are my interests, how do I want to help, how do I want to make an impact. You know, professionally, a lot of what I do now is public motivational speaking, which was completely unexpected. You weren't planning to do that at 21? Absolutely not. If I had to say, I probably would have stayed in an entire career. I was kind of already thinking about what I wanted to do next in the Marines. But at first, my first group that I ever spoke to was about 12 elementary school kids in a Sunday school class.

1:12:40Uh, it's a little foggy. I was still super medicated. I mean, it was early on in my journey. Kids are great though. I love kids. Uh, as you know, they ask everything they're probably not supposed to. Uh, so the teachers would say, uh, Hey, don't talk about this and this and all the hands go up and that's all they want to know. But you know, I enjoyed it. It was just kind of got me out of the hospital at the time. And you know, for many years I didn't even understand or I didn't even realize that I had a platform or a story that I could use to help other people. Right. It was just like you said, I was figuring it out.

1:13:21I was trying to heal and and and figure out this new body that I had. And so the engagements were very small, more local at first to South Carolina, which I recovered in DC, but I kind of went home back and forth depending on where I was at in my surgeries. You know, years later, it was a local Rotary Club. And at some point along the way, I just, I realized, you know, maybe there's something here. You know, people would share their stories of adversity with me. And, you know, it was a journey and it was an evolution and sometimes it was getting off stage and for many years I just winged it which drove my parents crazy they're like what you're gonna go up and just not have anything I'm like I mean I guess like I don't even really know what I'm doing here uh but as time went on you know I would get off stage and I would say oh well you know no one really knows what a fire team is or a squad.

1:14:24So now maybe we should just say team. And I slowly started to kind of bridge that gap and the verbiage between military and civilian. And then I had a few encounters where just light bulb moments where, you know, I get off stage and people would say, well, I was never in the military, but, and then proceed to tell me their own version of struggle. Right. That's when I realized, like, whether it's my book or speaking, although. I got injured by a hand grenade, no matter where we come from or what knocks us down as human beings, the feelings that follow are are universal. Sure. Everyone knows what it feels like to be knocked down, to have those moments of victory, happiness, hopelessness, sadness.

1:15:13And so that kind of really started the journey of being deliberate with my message, my intentions and what I wanted to get across to. You know, I try to never do the same thing twice. Every group, every person is different. And so that's how I tried to approach things. But, you know, other things, whether it's serving on the board of different various nonprofits from mental health to wake surfing, which do kind of bleed over. You know, wake surfing is maybe a little selfish because I do love to wake surf, but whether it's boards, whether it's just taking five minutes to spend with a veteran, no matter what it is, going back to that world of an unknown that I was living in in the

1:15:57Ryan Holiday: hospital, I just try to focus on the time that I have and the overall impact that I can make. so I don't know exactly what's going to come my way I don't ever want to just be this one thing right and kind of all those things combined I've just settled on hey life is a crazy unexpected and beautiful journey I don't know exactly what I'm going to get into good or bad. All I know is that I want to make the greatest impact on the world that I can with the time that I have. And that as kind of wide ranging and vague as that is, it also allows me to be focused enough to, if I have 10 things in front of me and I can only do two or three, to say, hey, I'm going to do these three things because I feel like that's where I can bring the most value.

1:16:59Ryan Holiday: You've got a mission, you know what aligns with it and what doesn't. Yep. And make the most impact. And a lot of what I do and my fellow recipients do is, you know, it's rarely individual endeavors. Yeah. Sure. It's more being force multipliers for good organizations or people, causes, or companies that are out there already doing great things. And that, you know, it's not make or break whether we help or not, you know, they still got their thing going on and they're doing a great job. But if we can get up there and say, hey, whether it's, you know, hiring these veterans or giving to this organization or, hey, just just do the right thing in the moment, you know, just to spread that positive impact, that hope and to remind people that, you know, This country, although it's like no country, it's not perfect.

1:18:02It's an ongoing experiment that, you know, it's a it's, you know, freedom is a powerful. It's worth it to go to your book. And a beautiful thing. Yeah, it is worth it. And the people that are listening and all the people out there, no matter who you are, where you come from, what you believe in that, you know, you are worth it and you're worth. serving and sacrificing for and spending years in a hospital bed. And like I said, my book, you know, deep scars on our body, because these ideals that built this country that gave us the foundation we have, and that allow us to continue that pursuit of trying to always, you know, just like in my recovery, even though sometimes it can feel like inching forward that, you know, we are always trying to get a little bit better.

1:18:58Ryan Holiday: And look, sometimes there's setbacks. Sometimes you go in the wrong direction and then you got to get your, it's not, it's not a line like this. Yep. You don't have to read much history to know that 1776 to now has not been this. Maybe if you zoom out long enough, it gets rid of the moments like this, but it was a pretty squiggly line. Yep. But I think through those, just to hold on to the hope and optimism that if we continue to try to stay on that path, to try to stick together, because it might be, you know, people tell me sometimes that I'm optimistic to a fault. And I understand that sometimes maybe it can be seen as a weakness or naive and I'm not naive, but I will always believe that there is more good than bad.

1:19:55I think that's a lovely place to stop.

1:19:57Ryan Holiday: You want to go check out some books in the bookstore? Oh, yeah, for sure. Let's do it.

1:20:39We'll be right back. various by location. See Associate and Lowes.com for details.