What We Can Learn From The Rich And Famous | Jordan Harbinger

0:00This message comes from Capital One. With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase and get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Stephen, Brandon, and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash Spark Cash Plus Terms Apply. This season, let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe without saying a word.

0:40From cool sneakers that look good with everything, the easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat, DSW has you covered. Find a shoe for every you from the brands you love, like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas, New Balance, and more. Head to your DSW store or visit DSW.com today.

1:07Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

1:57Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I'm heading over to Australia in a couple of weeks. I'm going to be in Sydney on July 31st. I'm going to be in Melbourne on August 1st. Then in November, I'm doing Vancouver and Toronto, London, Dublin, Rotterdam, all awesome cities I'm really excited to go to. If you want to come to of those talks are open to the public and you can grab those tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour.

2:27I have this very vivid memory. This would have been like 2012, yeah, 2012. My first book had just come out and I'd done one of my first ever podcasts and it was with this guy, Jordan. and then I was in LA. This is back when podcasts were all recorded remotely. No one even dreamed of having a studio in their house where they did these things. And certainly no one was posting videos of their podcasts. And I was doing this talk and he was going to swing by and we were going to link up. And as happens all the time in LA, like he couldn't find parking. And I was like, you know what, man, don't worry about it.

3:07We'll get together some other time. And we ultimately did. I don't remember when we met for the first time, but it's crazy to me that 12 years later, I have a podcast. Jordan's coming out to my studio and we're still friends. And in fact, his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show, just hit its thousandth episode on the day we recorded this at the Daily Stoic Studios right next to the Painted Porch. He's had some incredible guests over the years, Malcolm Gladwell, Danny Trejo, Kobe. I've been on quite a few times. I'm not saying those are the best. Basically, we did some back-to-back conversations.

3:45So I interviewed him. I'm going to run that as two episodes. And then he interviewed me, and he's going to run that on his podcast. If you don't want to wait, you can check out my many other interviews. I know we recorded it once live in San Francisco, and we recorded it once live in Los Angeles, like a live event or something like that. But this was an awesome conversation. And then funny enough, he and I got together in New York. He flew out to do this interview with me. And then it turned out like the next day we were both flying to New York for stuff. We could have just done it at a studio in New York or something.

4:19But I always love spending time with him. We ended up having breakfast in New York one morning after I did some media stuff. He's one of my favorite people. And he always sends me very nice notes about the Daily Dad stuff. Anyways, I'm going to bring you this conversation with my friend and someone I'm a big fan of, someone whose show I listen to all the time, Jordan Harbinger. And I think you're going to like it. We're talking about some of the things we've learned interviewing all these people over the years, how to stay present while you're doing whatever it is you're doing, and how to ask great questions.

4:54That's something I've been thinking a lot about. And then a bunch of other stuff. Thanks to Jordan for coming out. Thanks for having me on over the years. He's been an awesome supporter of my work. And like I said, just one of my favorite people. And a person who, you know, sometimes you kind of know someone and then you end up having a long conversation with them off the record or whatever. And you're like, wow, I like you more than I thought I did. I like you even more. The more you know about him, the more you like him. That's kind of been my experience with Jordan over the years. And I can't say that about everyone.

5:28And anyways, here's my interview with the one and only Jordan Harbinger.

5:47Okay. So I was writing this thing for Daily Stoke the other day, and I thought you might relate to this. Yeah. Which is, I've realized I've been doing this long enough that a number of the people that I've interviewed are dead. Oh, yeah. Have you thought about that? I have. Whenever there's a big, I should say big-ish celebrity death, I usually get a bunch of messages about it. Because I don't think like, oh, check that one off the list. Like, I don't, you know. But like when Larry King died, people were like, hey, didn't you interview him? Didn't you tell me that you had breakfast with him a bunch of times?

6:16Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I actually knew that person. It wasn't just like a random person. And then when Kobe passed away. Right, you had Kobe on. Yeah. People were like, oh, were you guys close? And I was like, no, that's not really how most of us works. Yeah. and they're like oh didn't it hit harder because you met him in real life and i thought about it you know he starts you thinking about this kind of thing and actually it did because when you see people on tv they are fake right your brain my brain anyway is like this is a person who's on television they might as well be a cartoon character for the most part but then when you meet them and then the cameras are off and they're like show me pictures of your kids because they're showing you pictures of their kids and you're like oh this is a real person then they die you're like Like a father of children died.

6:55Yeah. And that's really sad. Yeah. It's way different. It's totally different. Yeah. I was thinking about that because I was writing about someone who was like a professor of Stoic philosophy who died. You've probably seen some of his videos online. I was like, I think I've emailed this person before. And so I went and I was like, oh, I emailed this person in 2007. Oh my gosh. And it's like still in my Gmail. And then like, this is a person who's written about mortality. This is a person who's taught. And then the humanity of it all sets in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's something weird.

7:26And there's something weird about just the passage of time in your own life. Like when you started this stuff when you were young. Yeah. And then it sneaks up on you like, oh, you've done this for a long amount of time. Yeah. It doesn't feel great. Because people are like, you're a real pro now. What are you in? And you're like, oh, I've been podcasting for 18 years. I'm old now. This is a real thing. I am an old person. And there's a Seneca observation where he visits like the house that he grew up in and he sees all these trees and they're old and dying. And then he realizes that he planted those trees.

8:01He's like, oh, I'm old and dying. Right. And I felt that I think I may have met you. I think we might have been at this hotel at the same time. You ever been to the St. Julian in Boulder? I thought I'm just trying to remember if we went to a conference. I remember Adam Bornstein did a conference there. Yeah. What was that called again? 212. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I've been in this hotel a couple of times and I was walking down the hall to my room and I don't really care if a hotel is not nice or nice. It's like, I'm never paying for it. I'm just like, I just go where they tell me. But I've stayed in enough hotels that like what hit me as I was walking down the hallway of this hotel, no offense to them.

8:34I was like, oh, this hotel is getting old. I was like, I've stayed in this hotel long enough that it's now in the cycle of like time to update the hotel. You know? And I was like, wait, I've been doing this that long that like, because I was there the first time for a talk and I was there two days ago for a talk. And I was like, I've been doing this long enough that the hotel is worn down. I'm obviously worn down also. Your hair's still in the drain. Yeah, you can see the manifestation of aging in other people and other things. Oh, yeah. And then you feel the same, but you're not the same. It's true.

9:12Yeah, it's rude. That's why when we look, and women probably have it worse, when guys like us look in the mirror, like I was going to get a haircut before this. My wife's like, it's still short enough. And I was like, you don't understand. All the gray is on the side. Yeah. So when I cut it off, I look younger. She's like, no one's going to care. And then she's like, does Ryan film this? And I'm like, yeah, he films it. and there's lights everyone's going to see. And then I thought, isn't it, it's a little more authentic if I just let the gray grow out. Maybe on Daily Stoic, people will be like, who's this young guy with an edgy haircut?

9:42We don't want to listen to him. So I let it grow out for this. It's like every time you get a haircut, you have more gray hair. And I think about that, like every time I cut my kids' nails, I go, a certain amount of time has elapsed. That never comes back. Like there are these things like in parenting that you just take for granted, right? Like cutting their nails, they grow out of clothes, they wear through shoes, you know, haircut. And it feels like you're going in a positive direction when this is happening. And that's only because they have so much time. They do have so much time, hopefully.

10:18But there is something sad about it, right? There's this great poem about how like we get excited when spring comes, but spring is also sad. Like you see the life of spring or the green of summer or whatever, but what you're not thinking is like winter passed and that winter will never happen again. And the life is, there's more life in the plants, but there's less life in you. And you can kind of miss these things as they're happening. When you put it that way. Yeah, it's true. There's a, I think it's a daily dad. It must be a daily dad email that I have this program called Superhuman. It's like, remind me of this again.

10:52And I put it like six months. And there's a few of those that I have that I'm like, remind me in six months. And one of them is when you don't need the stuff anymore, like the tricycle is never going to get used again. And the shoes are too small. So you put them in the garage or the scooter or whatever, the helmet doesn't fit. And I sent that to my wife and she just responded with like a cry emoji. And it's true, right? Yeah, it's a graveyard. Your garage is a graveyard full of children you don't have anymore. It's super sad. So I'm like, we have to donate this basically as soon as we don't need it anymore and we're sure.

11:23So we can keep it for a few weeks if we're like, oh, he does want to go back to the scooter. Oh, you know what? He's not ready for the no training wheel thing. He's still got to use that. I forget what it's called. That bike you sent me, the Strider. Yes. With the no pedals. I'm like, OK. But as soon as he's done done. Yeah. Get rid of it, because I don't want to be tripping over that thing and being like, what the heck is all my son is too old for this. Now, like I'm going to be one. I'm going to kick it with my foot and be angry. And then the second thing is I'm going to feel intense sadness that he doesn't want to snuggle in bed anymore because he's 12.

11:53not four yeah you sent me one that which i still have which none of my kids could fit in it's like the tricycle oh like a handle on the back got the like little over hang thing yeah you have you have this stuff and then you don't want to get rid of it because it has a significance to it yeah and then it just sits there and you tell yourself there's a this is uh joan didion wrote this haunting book after the loss of her daughter this is her table so oh i wondered about that they would have sat at this table as a family which is crazy to think about yeah but like she's writing about how you keep this stuff or these photographs to like remind you of the memories.

12:30And she's like, what actually happens or what can happen is then you look at them and they make you terribly sad because you remember that you actually weren't present for that moment. So you hold on to the tricycle because you're like, oh, this is such a memory of their childhood. And then actually when they were on the tricycle, you were on your phone. Yeah, on your phone. Exactly. Looking at Instagram comments from people that are angry at you for no reason. But it was just weird walking down the hallway of this hotel being like, oh, like I've been doing this a very, like I emailed my speaking agent and I was like, how many talks do you think I've done?

13:04And it was like a very high, like a number that was like exciting. And then as you said, you've done, how many episodes of your podcast you think you've done? So the current show today, episode 1000 dropped this morning. Wow. And in my previous show, I think I was at like 722 when I stopped. So yeah, almost 2000 episodes. That's like exciting. And then also like a one way street. Right. Yeah. That's like a lot of hours. It is. My agent was like, hey, there's an AI company. They might want to license some of your content. And I was like, oh, I don't know how much I have. He's like, how many hours do you have?

13:38So I'm adding it up and I'm like, wow, that's a lot of talking. I should probably stop. It's like bad that it sneaks up on you in one sense because it means you're not paying attention. So you're not paying attention and that's not good. And then it also should be like, I think it's a positive sign when you just actually like what you're doing and you lose track of it. Right. Like they asked Lou Gehrig one time, you know, like they were like, Hey, I think you might have the longest streak of games in baseball. Like how many do you think you have? You know? And he's like, I don't know, like a couple hundred.

14:07And they're like, bro, it's like 2000 games. Like you're not even close. Right. And that's like, good. Like you want to be lost in it and at the same time if you get too lost in it you wake up one day and you're like oh like 20 years have passed and was i there for that or like the other thing i'm thinking about is like like you interviewed a bunch of athletes i'm sure i've never heard one of the athletes i've talked to been like i wish it was over faster and i wish i took it like maybe they'd say they took it more seriously but what most of the time they're like i wish i enjoyed it more like i wish I wasn't so such a monster to myself throughout the thing.

14:51Thanks to Toyota Trucks for sponsoring this episode. When I bought my ranch in 2015 out here in Bastro County, I drove my car about halfway down the dirt road that we live on, thought this isn't going to work, stopped, parked it, walked the rest of the way home, borrowed my wife's car, drove in Austin and bought a truck. What I bought was a Toyota Tacoma. And this truck wasn't just transportation getting me to and from my house. It unlocked a whole different style of living for us, not just on the ranch, but in our little Texas towns. There were places I could go now that I couldn't go before, especially out here in the piney forests, through the fields and on the unpaved roads like the one that I lived in.

15:36We got to go deep into the hill country's wild beauty. We've driven all the way out to East Texas. We've driven it across the country. And by we, I mean not just my wife, but both my kids who I drove home from the hospital in that truck. Toyota trucks are built for those who understand that the best adventures happen when you're willing to veer off course because you never know when you'll end up on a Toyota adventure detour. And of course, this is stoicism, too, because every detour, every obstacle is an opportunity. But it's helpful if you can handle the difficulty inherent in that. If you've got the resilience and the right companion to make it wherever the road takes you, discover your uncharted territory.

16:18Learn more at toyota.com slash trucks slash adventure dash detours. Run, don't walk. Olive in June is having the biggest and only sale of the year. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle, founder of Olive in June, and I have to say one of my favorite things to do is gift. And gifting Olive in June is the perfect way to share the joy of a salon quality manicure at home with friends and family. With our systems, tools, and high quality products, there's no need for the pricey salon visits. And during our sale from November 13th to December 1st, you can get 25 % off every product plus surprise gifts. So whether you're stocking up for yourself or giving the gift of beautiful nails, now is the time.

16:57Get 25 % off every product from November 13th to December 1st. Perfect for gifts, for stocking up, for treating yourself. Visit oliveandjune.com slash shop25 for 25 % off. That's O-L-I-V-E-A-N-D-J-U-N-E dot com slash shop25 for 25 % off everything.

17:19well isn't that what all high performers do though they beat themselves up over and over and over i mean one i do that and i'm just a podcaster so i can imagine what yeah like a all-star baseball player does my friend retired from football and he's he's not that old he was on the patriots and the 49ers and a few other things and he's like i'm happier than ever that I'm retired. He owns like a trading card store now and he sells Pokemon cards and stuff and then he's just like yeah it's way better. It's way better. He's like I'm in a better mood. I'm fitter than I was because I was like are you going to get fat?

17:52That happens. He's like no. I'm more ripped than I ever was. I'm happier than I ever was. He's breeding his turtles. He's just like a nerdy. He's breeding his turtles? Yeah he breeds all my turtles. Sounds like a hot guy. Shout out to Cassius Marsh. I don't think it's a secret. And he's just like much happier now. And I think it's because first of all, you start off by trying to do anything you can to get into the NFL. Sure. Like you're abusing your body. Who knows what kind of substances some of these high school kids might even be on. And I don't say that with evidence from him. I'm just saying, yeah, these are giant humans.

18:23Sure. That's not always natural. And even if it isn't natural, it's not good for you. Right. Yeah. To be eating all that protein and stuff all the time at that age, like it's just not good for you. Then you get hit thousands of times maybe in the head. and now we know that that's cumulatively really really bad for you and your hips are hurting your knees are hurting and then you you check the clock and you're like 32 years old yes i'm 44 i don't have that many aches and pains they're starting but imagine when they start when you're 29 that's that's awful so i can't imagine it's like a happy lifestyle you might succeed and get money but then people you grew up with especially if you grew up in a bad neighborhood he told me a lot of these guys that grew up and are successful in the NFL, they got demons, man.

19:04Of course. There's a reason they are where they are. They can take abuse. That's not something that usually well-adjusted kids are getting into. Was that good for you to watch the people you grew up with not succeed and die? You're coming from a trauma. The fact that you escaped the trauma is wonderful, but there's guilt that's associated with that. And then also just, yeah, like having to adjust to the fact that you have millions of dollars doesn't magically make what you went through. Okay. No. Yeah. It's so funny to hear from, well, I shouldn't say funny. It's probably the wrong word. Yeah.

19:40It's interesting to hear from people who have millions of dollars, billions of dollars and off camera, I'll be like, so, you know, where are you off to now? See the grandkids? And they're like, I don't have much of a relationship with my son. And you're just like, oh, that's not worth it. Or they're like, oh, I'm going to this conference. And I go, why? You know, it's like, what? You're not getting paid, right? And they're like, no, no, no. And you realize like, oh, you think a lot of success will buy like freedom. And they're just as busy as you are and doing a lot of the same stupid shit that you tell yourself that you would not do if you didn't have to.

20:20And then you realize, oh, it had nothing. It's a compulsion. There was one guy who I was talking to and he was stressed out about some real estate thing. Not a deal, not like a business deal. It was like something to do with his house. And I thought, you don't have somebody that handles like the landscaping at your home? And he's like, no, this isn't a home that I live in. It's, I mean, I can, I do have, but it's one of, and I was like, how many, how many homes do you have? This guy had 19 homes, not investment properties, homes. and I said how often do you go there because even if you spend a month in each one you haven't gone there for over a year and he's like I went to this one before I bought it no no no no I bought it before I saw it and then I've only been there a couple of times and a couple of times for a couple of hours he this guy's not spent a night in this I'm like sell that how much how many hours this week have you spent trying to like hire a landscaper and a caretaker first of all why are you doing?

21:16I mean, 90 % of this guy's life stress was like managing homes that he didn't need or use. And I thought, how did you, you're smarter than this theoretically. Except for, it's like, you think you're smarter than this, except for we're all just a microcosm of that. Yeah. I remember I was, I was recording a remote podcast with someone who was worth many billions of dollars and they didn't know that it's like, I was in the room, you know, like the sort of waiting room of the digital and so they were on and i could hear them talking to like an assistant or whatever and she's telling him about this property that he's looking at and he's like how much is it and she goes like it's uh 88 million dollars and i go okay and i'm like trying to like make noise like you know like like i'm here you know and it's like he didn't have the headphones in right so he didn't screaming so i was like i don't want this is insane i don't want i don't want to hear this is weird but he goes but is it nice you know yeah i think it's pretty nice and then she goes i I mean, you know, he's like, there's$80 million homes that are teardowns.

22:15You know, this is what he says, you know. They're called castles, buddy. That is not a thing. There is no such thing as an$88 million teardown. But yeah, you realize like you can still find some way to be stressed about just about anything. And that's what I think the thing that makes you a person. Yeah. Obviously, there's inherited wealth and luck and whatever. But the thing that makes you the kind of person that you're in a position to buy an$88 million house or to be in the NFL. is the kind of person that sucks the fun out of it. Yeah. Like, so you're going not just, hey, this is the nicest house I've ever stepped foot in.

22:49You're like, is this nice enough for me? Or you're like, yes, I know I just played in the NBA finals, but in game three, I could have done better. And that's what I'm focused on. That mind that makes you always want to get better, by definition, also has a tendency to suck the enjoyment out of the thing. I would say one of the biggest gifts for having access to some of these people is seeing how just mundane a lot of their problems really are. Yeah. Right? Like, you'll talk to some guy who's got, he just upgraded his private jet or whatever, and he's like, I can't believe, and it's just insert totally trivial problem here.

23:29And you're thinking, like, you don't have seven layers of people that can help you with that? No, the coffee that you got from Starbucks was burned. Well, first of all, why are you getting your coffee from Starbucks? you should have you should you should have known what you're getting into but yeah it's something along those lines every single time but even bigger they have real big problems that it's it's amazing it probably shouldn't be but it is amazing to me that and this is one of the reasons why i like the daily dad stuff is it really a lot of these guys are so focused on the wrong stuff for so long yeah they've got rocket ship momentum in let's say business so it's really easy it's easier for them to lose sight of something like raising good kids or like making sure your relationship with them is functional.

24:10Raising kids is tough, right? It is, yeah. And so life is tough. But if you are a master of the universe in the thing that you do, whether it's like kicking a football or trading stocks or painting or whatever, that thing, even though it's hard, even though 99.9 % of the population can't do it as well as you can do that thing. It's going to be easier and more soothing and less uncontrollable than your seven-year-old or your 17-year-old or your spouse or whatever, right? And so you have this thing, you have this gift, which is you have something you're really good at and you really love, but you're always faced with this dilemma of like, do I do this hard thing over here or this easy thing over here that I get to tell myself is hard.

24:56Exactly. And that I go, I'm being a great parent. I just made a billion dollars last year. What are you talking about? Well, your son has gotten caught shoplifting for the 30th time and you're bailing him out of prison or jail. So like, are you good at this whole thing? Like you really have to look at the whole pie. But yeah, it's easy to focus on the slice you're really good at and that's comfortable for you. Yeah, where like the world feels shitty and unpredictable and confusing and you're just like, I'm going to go get like the flow state is an addictive cocoon that probably is similar to, I mean, look, I don't know what heroin feels like, but like what there's something about it.

25:31Why not? There is something wonderful about it, right? And like other things are not wonderful. And so you have this, am I going to go to the wonderful thing that never lets me down, that I can turn on and off, or this thing over here, which I can't turn on and off. Yeah. Gosh. I feel like if I were in that position in business, I would not have kids. But that's wisdom that comes from probably having kids and then going, oh, yeah, you shouldn't have kids if you're going to only focus on not kids. But you know what's funny? I think you and I have talked about this before. where what I always think is interesting is you meet these like super successful people and they've done all this stuff.

26:06And then they're like, but what I'm really trying to do is start a podcast. Oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. That's always hilarious. For me, it's always like, but I've got this book idea. There's something about where like they've climbed, we climbed to the top of these mountains and then we're like, but what I really want is this other mountain that somebody else has. And usually that mountain is a more public facing mountain. Yes, I was going to say it's fame, actually. Yes. And look, I'm just a podcaster. I've had a taste of it, right? And I've got some questions when I interview you that we can talk about with that.

26:39But it amuses me to no end to meet somebody who's got like a$150 million annual recurring revenue business or more. What do I know? Recurring revenue business. Like they fly private when they go to Cannes Film Festival and they've got a wife and they've got kids and stuff. And they're like, how did you get so many Instagram followers? And I'm like, is this an idle curiosity? No, they'll hire someone that's producing essentially short films for their Instagram. And I'm like, how's that working out? They paid like$100 ,000 to get their name, just at their name. And I'm like, why would you do that?

27:12And he goes, man, I'm loving it. I get all these DMs from people and I'm coaching them and stuff. I'm like, yeah, but like high school kids or whatever. And he's like, yeah, but it feels great. And I'm like, you've built this massive thing. And all you wanted was validation from like literal children. Yeah. It's amazing. Thank you.

27:56all on the app. Download Thumbtack today.

28:26or in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a Sleep Number store or sleepnumber.com today.

28:34Or I think about it like when I see like a president on book tour or something, and you're just like, oh, like you, six months ago you had command over nuclear weapons. And now you're at the like Los Angeles book festival and you're looking out and you're like, oh, there's not that many people. Just like I'm doing. Like there's something, there's like - I had more people on Air Force One this time last year. Yeah, there's something desperate about it that like, again, I think, and the Stoics talk about this, you see it and it isn't like, oh, I'm so much better than them. But you're like, oh, the desperation never goes away.

29:11Unless you do something about it, it never goes away. Well, that's why I don't want it to sound like I'm making fun of these people. I'm actually making fun of myself because at the end of the day, they're like, maybe I'll do this podcast thing. And I'm like, no, it's pathetic. We're all pathetic. Stop. Don't get that out of your mind. It's not as cool as you think it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you're the Prince of Wales. Calm down. Yeah. You can just go golfing or something, man. Right. Yeah. No, but we can't. We can't not be busy. And then I think the idea that other people over there, people who are potentially not as talented as you, have a bigger audience than you, that is so incredibly distressing to certain people.

29:50They have, and it has to - Certain people like me. No, something has to be done about - You're like, I can't just be me and have done what I do. I also need this thing that they have. Yeah, well, that drives—I mean, trust me, the comparison thing is a whole—it's a whole thing. And what's worse—look, I would love it. Look, if you sell more books than me, which you have because I don't have any books, and that's not the only reason, I'm fine with it. But that is 100 % of the reason. In another sense. It's both all and none of the reason at the same time. Schrodinger's fail. but that's that's fine right for for me i don't care but when i see somebody who does really terrible interviews and they're getting massive traction i just go what am i what's what am i chopped liver and also i should have just started creating content for stupid people because that's clearly what this is or you know and you start realizing like okay i'm being salty about this it's not healthy i should probably spend zero time thinking about this it's it's almost like a vice but vice is usually pleasurable and this is the opposite of that so i'm not sure what you would even call that.

30:52Yeah. Joseph Epstein wrote this essay once on the seven deadly sins. And he said, envy is the only sin that's no fun. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly. And I think about that all the time, right? Like you're torturing yourself. Like at least the other pleasures are pleasurable. Right. This is a thing you're not supposed to do that only punishes you. The person you're jealous of doesn't even know. And by the way, if they didn't know, it would probably make them feel good. It made them feel good. You're shitty. So it's, yeah, jealousy is something that you try to push away and and then you realize like first off you have no idea what that person is actually doing you have no idea how real any of those numbers are i remember i was talking to to molly bloom once and we were talking about someone we're like how this doesn't make any sense it doesn't add up oh that's funny i just texted her this morning oh on the way here while we were sitting here she we were talking about someone afterwards we were like this doesn't make this doesn't add up yeah and she's like maybe they're a criminal you know and i was like oh i would never have thought that but that could be true funny ironic she's like trust me maybe they're a criminal yeah that's what i'm saying she was like oh no there could just be like actual fraud happening yeah i'm thinking like no we're competing in a race and they're winning and therefore i'm losing and she's like you have no idea like it it could be a result of something you would never do so you you never know and then and then there's also this thing you realize when you talk to a lot of those people that like they're also jealous and sometimes of you so there's this irony of like you meet a billionaire and you're like, wow, what would it be like to have all this?

32:20And then they're like, can you give me advice on how to write a book or do a pocket? You realize like they want what you have and you're both just stupidly not being grateful for what you have. It's funny you mentioned Molly Bloom because like I said, I was just talking to her this morning on the way here. She is so insightful with that stuff. And in part, because she was also doing something that got her, you know, her door kicked down by the FBI. And just knowing like how normal a lot of these folks are is so liberating in some way. I think this is something you said in an email newsletter or on a podcast a while ago that I've always tried to remember is if you want something that someone else has, you have to trade your whole life with that person.

32:58Does that sound familiar? So whenever I think like, oh, look at this person, look what they have built. It's like, okay, wait a minute. I want to meet this person and or their close friend and be like, what are they really like? Well, they have sleep problems and they stay up till five o 'clock in the morning every night because they have massive anxiety. So they're working like 20 hours a day and they don't have any real relationships in part because of the anxiety thing or because they don't have time or because they're on the road 350 days a year doing the thing. And you go, Ooh, I don't actually want that life.

33:28I just wanted the part where they got to hang out with this person and they got to cash that check. I don't want the part where they're thinking you can transport your brain and your values into that person and into that life as if their life and what they have is not a product of their brain and their value. Yes, exactly. And it seems like a really good idea at the time. But once you realize you cannot do that, like their broken brain that doesn't let them sleep more than three hours a night and is causing them to die young or age prematurely and not have close relationships and be completely dysfunctional in many areas of their life, that's why they have a 30-year career as an A-list musician or whatever.

34:08But yes, you don't want the rest. Conversely, if you would take the trade, if you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, they're better across the board, then you're like, oh, okay, I need to start making changes in my life to be more... It's not like everyone's a phony and shitty, right? Of course. Sometimes you meet people and you go, oh, they're happier than me. They're trying less hard than me. They're chiller than me. And their thing is more meaningful. And you're like, oh, okay, what are the choices that they're making that got them there? Yeah. I want to make more choices like that. And then you can kind of have this person in your mind.

34:40You're like, okay, what would they do in this situation? That's a really good way to look at it. It's easy for me to focus on the negative because we were just talking about envy. But you're right. There's a lot of folks where you go, how does this person have so much energy? Oh, they're in really good shape. How are they in such good shape? Well, they don't drink. Yeah. Maybe I should stop drinking. Yes. Okay. Well, how are they not getting fat and gray? Well, they eat right. Oh, they have a trainer and they work out all the time. Yeah. all right, well, I guess I actually have to do that kind of thing.

35:04My wife told me a long time ago, this is years and years and years ago. It was like my seventh year podcasting. And I had Robert Green coming on, who you're obviously super familiar with. You might have been introduced to him now that I think about it. That sounds right. And I was like, I don't want to screw this up because it's going to be embarrassing. Yeah, I think you did introduce me to him. And I was like, Ryan's going to be embarrassed that he made the intro. Robert Green's going to be like, why did I do that stupid podcast? So I read his whole book. And I usually wasn't doing that for to prepare for Joe's.

35:31Oh, interesting. And I read it and Robert Greene was like, this is a really good interview. You're pretty good at this. Why do you think, you know, and I remember going, that's because I read the whole book for the first time. I treated this seriously. Yes. And I told my wife and I go, man, I wish I could read the book for every episode. And she goes, you could. And I'm like, no, no, it's just too much work. And she goes, yeah, I mean, but you could. You just don't really, like that's just not really what you want to do. But I guess you just have to make a choice. Do you want every interview to turn out really well?

35:57Or do you just want to like, kind of make it easy on yourself. And I went, I like took that deep, like, oh, you're right, honey, kind of sigh. And now I read every book for every interview. And it's part of my reputation is, wow, you're prepared for this. It's like actually a good interview. And they're not like clearly just reading the back cover. And yeah. And look, I'm sympathetic to journalists who have 15 minutes to prepare for something. That's a real thing. You have a boss being like, here are the eight things you got to do this week. But if you're an entrepreneur, if you run your own shop, you can prioritize reading for 10 hours a week you have to if you don't you're commoditizing yourself as the person that one out of 50 interviews they're going to do that month or whatever where you didn't read the book you got the publicists like 10 question sheet read the first chapter and you think like i'm faking my way through it and the author goes oh yeah the thing i get asked every single episode because it's in the first chapter sure here's my autopilot response have you interviewed brian johnson yes a long time ago yeah yeah i think that's so interesting because i was thinking about this because i one of his videos popped up and i was like okay so you want to live forever and what you want to live forever for is to make these videos it says like here's how i solve sleep or what like it was like so you sold a company for like a hundred million dollars you've apparently conquered uh human was like 800 million whatever yeah human mortality and then you're like and now that i have all this free time and and freedom him i'm gonna be a youtuber it's there's something weird there's something hilarious about it i interviewed him probably four four or five years ago he was talking about brain machine interfaces which i think maybe is still part of what he's doing i hope because that's a i feel like that's a really worthwhile pursuit somebody's got to do it uh aside from elon good you have some competition in this space but now you're right now he's like doing the youtube thing and my my thoughts look he wants to live forever and crack that cool you mentioned freedom though i don't know, man, he doesn't eat after 10 a.m.

37:50Yeah, that's for me would not that's not eating after 10 a.m. Like you want to point of waking up. My God, why don't you get out of bed now? He never drinks. OK, I don't really drink either. So fine. And he's discovering, I think, a lot of things like, oh, even wine at 9 a.m. disrupts sleep like that's a worthwhile thing. But to me, it just seems like a regimented lifestyle. That means and also you don't know you're going to live to be 200 you could get hit by a bus tomorrow there was there was some guy there was some guy i don't think i'm making this up but he was like an expert on like aging like in the 70s like he was like he wrote this book about how to like live forever and he was on like the tonight show or some late night show okay and he literally died on the show giving an interview about how he's gonna live forever no it's fucking hilarious because this is what we do right like death is undefeated and we I think like anytime you hear someone who's like, oh, I've conquered it or I figured it out or I'm, you know, people like, oh, I'm planning to live to be 113.

38:48And you're just like, first off, I've met 113 year old. Yeah. And I mean, I was glad he was alive, but he wasn't like, didn't seem like he seemed like he was ready to go, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But like, there's something silly about it, which I, the Stokes talk about. Mark's is like, so you're afraid of, he's like, ask yourself, am I afraid of death? Because I won't be able to do this anymore. And I think that's so funny. Like, to me, that's the funniest thing in all of stoicism. Because we think life is like so important and majestic and wonderful. And there are moments of it. But it's like, you want to live forever.

39:22And then you're like on hold with customer service. And you should be like, to me, it's in those moments. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's not that important to live forever. Like, life is fucking stupid. You know, like, not like nihilistic. I love my children. I love my work. But life is also so dumb. Being a human is so dumb. And we're just walking around in these skin suits. Dave Dave style. Yeah. Spinning in space. It's ridiculous. And so there's something about like, I just thought it was so funny. Like I'm gonna live forever. And now, now that I know I'm gonna live forever, YouTube's obviously where it's at.

39:53I need likes. I need so many YouTube subscribers. Yeah. To me, it's a little bit nuts. My kids are starting to ask those existential questions. Like my son, he's almost five. And he's like, will the earth ever explode? Yeah. And I'm like, oh, no. I mean, you learn that fact about the sun and then you're like worried. Right. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Maybe that's where he got it. Like the sun's going to turn into a red giant or something. And I'm like, we're going to be long gone by then, buddy. Like either all of humanity or at least you and I. And he's like, oh, you're going to die. And I'm like, oh, crap.

40:24That's not really the can of worms I meant to open at this particular point in time while I'm trying to get you strapped into the damn car to school. But yeah, I have to have those sorts of conversations with him. And it's like, and you can just see the wheels turning. And I'm like, I really hope I'm not setting you up to have like a traumatizing day where you're thinking about everybody dying or something like that. And it's sort of – but to highlight your point of how absurd it all is, it's like, buddy, you're almost five. Yeah. Worrying about the sun turning, whether the earth is going to explode or something like that.

40:53Like these are really things that I hope you're not losing sleep over. Yeah. On the other hand, you don't want to lie to your kids and be like, this will never happen. We're always going to be fine. because I feel like whenever you do that, you just hope they don't remember that you've lied to them. And then later on, you can correct the impression, but it's not, I really feel like that's not how it works. How do you think it works? I think you have to, before we were, probably before we were recording, we were talking about your kid losing something from McDonald's you got like three years ago.

41:20And I think if I say, no, mommy's going to live forever, put your seatbelt on. Yeah. And then a year later, I tell him, well, everybody dies. He'll be like, well, wait a minute. Which one of those is true? Which one of those is true? Because I'm pretty damn sure you told i think kids memories are amazing because they don't have that much that they are actually concerned about they're concerned about legos french fries that they just that they're currently eating and like sonic the hedgehog on the on the netflix thing yeah so the netflix that's how i know i think it's actually on amazon it's called television uh it's on it's on netflix have you watched the one yeah there's netflix there's a cartoon but have you watched like the movie the sonic movie with james mars no it's so good is it really the sweetest movie that's funny My kid loves Sonic the Hedgehog.

42:03Yeah, our kids do, too. It's funny, because I thought that's a character that doesn't really have longevity. I was like, eh. But then now I look at it, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, Sonic's 30. So watch this. This is, I'm sure, riveting the people. But watch this Sonic movie. Jim Carrey's in it. He's incredible. Oh, really? He's the mustache guy. Oh, that's perfect. He's so good. But you watch it, and you're like, oh, how did you make this into a sweet, like how did you imbue sonic the character which they make him this like little boy that basically crashes to earth from an outer plane and all he wants to be is like like a regular kid with parents like pinocchio yeah yeah it's very pinocchio-esque and it's very good it's like extreme i've i've i i found it almost like tear-jerkingly good that's i i love stuff like that i wonder my kids probably never sat through a movie uh yeah we we movies are new for us yeah How old are your kids now?

42:56Seven and five. Okay. So I'm like, can he sit through a whole movie? We went to a movie at a movie theater the other day for like the first time. What was that? If movie, which I actually didn't think was very good, but it's about imaginary friends. It's that John Krasinski made a movie about imaginary friends. It was supposed to be good. I thought it was ridiculous, but not ridiculous because it's supposed to be absurd, but I didn't make any sense. It was not. I didn't think it was good, but. He's never coming on the show now. Yeah, I know. I'm just. Edit that out, Claire. Did you see it? Actually, I wrote a Daily Stoic email about it, and I was thinking about it as I was talking.

43:29There's this clip of Tina Fey, and she's talking to Bowen Yang from SNL. And he had started to say something about a movie he didn't like. And she was like, uh-uh. And he's like, what? And she's like, you're way too famous for this. And she's like, saying your real unvarnished opinions about stuff. She's like, you can't talk shit about a movie. You might want to be in a movie with that director at some point. That's a good point. You have no idea what went into that movie. She's like, all the times that I've said stuff like that, I've come to regret. She's like, I'm speaking off the cuff as if I am a person and I'm not a person.

44:04I'm just like, you wouldn't just talk shit about one of your coworkers or whatever. You wouldn't do that. Like not on recording, obviously. Right. Sorry, Brian Johnson. She was like, you can't do that. And to me, what I was thinking about it, like one of the interesting things in the Stokes is like Seneca never talks shit about Nero. Like he has the worst boss of all time and nowhere in his writings does he talk about this. And that's always been like a knock against him. And then you're like, oh wait, of course not. He would have been executed. He would have been executed. Yeah. Thanks so much for listening.

44:37If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.

45:03Look, ads are annoying. They are to be avoided, if at all possible. I understand as a content creator why they need to exist. That's why I don't begrudge them when they appear on the shows that I listen to. But again, as a person who has to pay a podcast producer and has to pay for equipment and for the studio and the building that the studio is in, it's a lot to keep something like the Daily Stoic going. So if you want to support a show but not listen to ads, well, we have partnered with Supercast to bring you an ad-free version of Daily Stoic. We're calling it Daily Stoic Premium. And with Premium, you can listen to every episode of the Daily Stoic podcast completely ad-free.

45:51No interruptions, just the ideas, just the messages, just the conversations you came here for. And you can also get early access to episodes before they're available to the public. And we're going to have a bunch of exclusive bonus content and extended interviews in there just for Daily Stoic Premium members as well. If you want to remove distractions, go deeper into stoicism and support the work we do here. Well, it takes less than a minute to sign up for Daily Stoic Premium, and we are offering a limited time discount of 20 % off your first year. Just go to dailystoic.com slash premium to sign up right now or click the link in the show descriptions to make those ads go away.