£369m wasted? The real reason King Charles and Prince William will never move into Buckingham Palace

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30it and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

0:47Welcome to The Royal Tea, the podcast serving up the very best royal insight from the experts in the know. Us, that's me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Hannah Finesse, the Telegraph's Royal Editor. And in a historic move, King Charles has become the first UK monarch to reveal just how much he's paid in tax. But is he tearing the heart out of the monarchy by abandoning Buckingham Palace as a royal residence?

1:20Hannah, you've spent the day poring over the royal accounts. Look at this paperwork. Look at the showing your workings. And it's awful for us journalists because we can't count and we have to get people from the city desk to help. What does it mean when he says he's paid this? And what about that? And what about compound interest? And how much does the royal train cost per journey? But let's talk about the top line that's come out of these accounts. It's not that surprising to us royal watchers, but I think the public might raise an eyebrow here. It's genuinely massive. It's really important in the history of the monarchy.

1:54So the King and Queen have announced that they're not going to ever live at Buckingham Palace. We know that William's already indicated that he doesn't want to live at Buckingham Palace. So really, reading between the lines, we may never have a King or Queen living at Buckingham Palace. What's wrong with Buckingham Palace? I mean, who doesn't? It's central London location. The rooms are big, high ceilings, good carpets, lovely upholstery. What's wrong with great portraits on the wall? this is a bit bizarre because haven't we just spent an enormous amount of money resurfacing which is a funny phrase but it's basically ripping out all the old electrics and plumbing which hadn't been replaced since Queen Victoria's reign putting new infrastructure in there how much have we spent on that?

2:37369 million. And is that taxpayers cash? Yes. And they're not going to live there? They're not going to live there. The reason they're not going to live there they've given several several reasons the reading between the lines the reason that we kind of secretly know is that nobody ever wants to live at Buckingham Palace. Why the Queen quite likely? Nobody since Queen Victoria has really wanted to live there. The late Queen and Prince Philip had to be very firmly persuaded to move out of Clarence House, where they were really comfortable, into Buckingham Palace, which is this big, imposing building.

3:08Churchill was quite instrumental in that. Sir Keir Starmer obviously hasn't had the same conversation with the King and Queen Camilla because they're staying put at Clarence House. What Churchill said, listen, this is a national monument. It's like the seat of monarchy. you have to be there to be believed. Yeah, and we've called it for a long time, they've called it Monarchy HQ. Yes. Now we're transitioning into this language that it's going to be the working headquarters of the royal family. It's going to be a much more public building. They want to open it up a little bit more that nobody is going to sleep there for the first time in centuries.

3:37I mean, I'm quite happy to sleep there. Can we do some sleepovers? That would go down really well. I mean, they open it up, don't they, in the summer. They have the summer opening. You can tour around all of the great rooms, including the throne room, which is the room that leads out to the famous balcony. I appreciate that all the offices are there for the main king and queen operation because we've got another operation over at Kensington Palace, correct? I just don't know whether this is going to quite wash. I mean, this is a multi-room mansion that is basically, apart from workers, sitting empty most nights.

4:12And the problem with it is that we've always been told, since this resurfacing programme began and this enormous amount of money was spent on it, we've always been told that the plan was that formerly the Queen and now the King were one day going to live there. You'll remember, because you were doing the briefings in those days, that they were very clear that the plan was they will move out and then they will move back in when it's much safer, it's fit for the modern day, the electric wires aren't dangling from the ceilings and there are no more damp patches. Pieces of masonry are hitting Princess Anne in the quadrangle.

4:41The thing is, the King and Queen are also very closely attached to Clarence House. Do you know one of the greatest headlines I was ever responsible for? They're royal hosenesses. And this was a story about how the then Prince of Wales was recycling his bathwater via a bright yellow garden hose down onto his plants. And I spotted it as I walked past. I thought, what's all that about? Found out it was actually going from the royal bathroom down onto the plants. And we did headline it, your royal hoseness. You can't do that at Buckingham Palace. Hannah, I'm going to leave the tax stuff to you to explain.

5:17Oh, please don't. because I barely know how to do my own tax return, let alone how to interpret. You're holding up an A3 piece of paper. For those listening and not watching, you've got an A3 piece of paper with lots of complicated notes on it. What does that tell us? To give credit to the Palace, this year they're really deliberately trying to actually explain what these finances mean, the difference between public money, private money, what is tax, what is not. So we've got the sovereign grant, which we talk about every year, which is effectively public money. is the crown estate, which is land.

5:49It makes money, they give it to the treasury and they get a portion back every year to spend on their working lives, their household. And if the crown estate is more profitable, they get more. If it's less profitable, they get less. Exactly. And they reset it every five years. They reset the proportion. So this time it's going up a little bit, but they're not getting any more money for refurbishing the palace because that will be done soon. Right. Although not that soon. Seems to have been going on for quite some time, but carry on. Okay, by the time it's finished, yes. Then you've got the Duchy of Lancaster, which is the king's private estate.

6:20Then you've got the king's private income, which includes residences like Sandringham and Balmoral. He pays tax on that. The figure we've got for tax is... £12.9 million. And then the figure since he's become king is around£30 million. So he's paid£30 million in tax since he became king. Top 100 taxpayers in the UK, as you'd expect, because he's literally the king. Okay, fine, good. And then William has got his own private estate, which is the Duchy of Cornwall. Can I just say how tempting it is to start singing past the Duchy? But that's a different kind of Duchy and that's a different kind of podcast for another day.

6:53If anyone remembers that 1980s hit, which I think is about drugs, carry on. But a Duchy is a landholding, an inherited... It's an estate. It's an estate. They're landholders. People rent buildings off them. I love how well I try to explain that. I've been doing this for years. Basically, by the way, the Duchy of Lancaster, as the name suggests, includes quite a huge portion of the north of England and the Duchy of Cornwall includes quite a huge portion of Cornwall, the Cilly Isles and things like that. And when we talk about the Crown Estates, it's good for people to perhaps recognise that the Crown Estates includes huge portions of London, including, I think, Regent Street and other areas, correct?

7:37But it also includes the seabed of the UK to like five miles out or something. And that's significant because if we decide to build offshore wind farms and that makes the land more profitable, then the royals benefit, which may perhaps explain some of the eco-warrior nature of the king and his son. I don't know. Maybe. And also the treasury benefits. They get the majority of this money from the brown estate. So William last year, you'll remember because we talked about it, loads, he didn't release his tax bill. The last Prince of Wales Charles used to declare his tax. William last year didn't, this year has.

8:15Why did he not and why has he decided to change his mind, do you think? We'll have to ask him for the real reason. I think this year he feels it's the right thing to do. Open invitation to come on the day. Open invitation to come on the Royalty and discuss these matters. This is all part of the change agenda. Your Royal Holiness. Change, transparency. These are all the words we hear from the Palace. But also it's funny this because you said they're explaining a lot and the mantra was never complain, never explain. And William's mantra is let's leave less unsaid. So I think that is progress. What do we know about transportation?

8:46You flagged something earlier about the Royal Train. The Royal Train has been decommissioned, correct? It will be, yes. The lease is up next year, 2027. So it's a bit of the last puff, the last chug of the Royal Train. Poor old Thomas. So it's had four good outings this year. But it's cost a fortune. It costs a fortune. And that is why it is being retired, really. So 200 grand or something? Nearly 160 ,000, I think, for four trips within the UK. Although anyone that's got a last-minute ticket to Edinburgh can understand these prices. No delay repay. I've been on the Royal Train, have you? No. Oh, you see?

9:18I went on the Royal Train once with Prince Philip. Did you? Yeah. It's basically like being in Hyacinth Bouquet's moving living room. Very chintzy. Yes. What did you do with him on the Royal Train, dare I ask? I had to shadow him for his, I want to say, 80th birthday, but was it actually 90th? How long have I been doing this job? I can't remember. And he kind of spent most of the trip with his hands behind his back, pecking away at me, eyeing me with a huge amount of suspicion. Did you have lunch? Did you sleep? I can't remember what I did. I didn't sleep on the train, but I hung out with press officers on the train and was trying to nosy about and I think probably trying half-inch something ciphered.

9:57And then we got off it and it was all just thoroughly enjoyable and civilised. I think somebody served as tea, natch. And people will be able to see this to some extent, not with Prince Philip on it, but it'll be in museums when it's out of action. Okay. Now, to be fair, the royals haven't been doing as many trips lately, I would say, in the last five years as normal because of dual cancer diagnoses and all the rest of it. The most expensive trip was William to Saudi Arabia, 130 grand, followed by the king and queen to Italy, 127. That doesn't seem right, does it? It costs more to send one royal to Saudi Arabia than it does two royals to Italy.

10:33Or I suppose on distance. It's the same plane. They didn't go on different planes to Italy. All right, OK. And it's further to Saudi. Should they fly EasyJet? It's just a question. Quite often they do fly, BA. Quite often they're at the front of the plane paying for their ticket and we're down the back. Yes. On telegraph expenses. Also, weren't William and Kate once spotted on Ryanair? God help them. Yeah, they do. They flew to Scotland on a budget airline, yeah. Oh, we love that. OK, fine. This is interesting, Hannah. they're trying to flex their online muscles here by making the point that it's a social media monarchy at 2.1 billion social media impressions and 432 million views on official royal videos.

11:14And they say they still need to be seen to be believed, but it can be on Instagram nowadays. This is quite big for them in the Commonwealth. And if you think if you're doing the US state visit, not everybody's going to be able to see you in person. They want people to see them online. It's another way of communicating. But it is a bit different, isn't it, to have it in an official royal report? I know. And did that include the gladiator style video that Kate recorded as she... Gladiator style? Well, it was because... Can I just clarify? Nobody was wrestling with animals. But remember, I'm not in remission, but my cancer's kind of gone away.

11:51I love the countryside. And I'm going to just put my hand through a field of wheat, Russell Crowe style. I wonder if that is included. Does that fall under this year? Possibly. But let's be honest, they've been better at doing really good videography. I think we can all agree on that. And we quite like it, don't we? We do. They've got a bigger team doing it. We often see them out and about. They'll have their own videographer. They're online photographers. It does work for them. There's a lot of slow-mo at Kensington Palace nowadays. I love a bit of slow-mo. William and Kate's slow-mo. Also public displays of affection.

12:22Yeah. I mean, that makes them feel better, value for money. We see them rolling around on the floor in the grass, loving each other's work. It's quite nice, isn't it? And we get to see a little bit. So Trooping the Colour the other week, we got to see them feeding carrots to the horses behind the scenes, which you wouldn't do normally. No, I know. This whole kind of opening up of the Royal Family album. A Palace statement. Shall we read it out? A Buckingham Palace spokesperson said the decision had been made to help. Oh, this is about the transparency point. encourage wider understanding of our accountability as part of its efforts to increase transparency.

12:57They added, while this is the first time a monarch has shared this personal tax information, you may recall it was similarly released by His Majesty when he was Prince of Wales. Point you've made. The decision to do so as sovereign has come at the express wish of the king himself as part of the adaptations carried out across Sink's accession. sorry, as part of the adaptions adaptations I'll say that line again, the whole line the decision to do so as sovereign has come at the express wish of the king himself as part of the adaptations carried across since accession so they're basically saying, look, the king wanted this so we've done it.

13:34Yes Shall we speak to somebody who thinks that they could be more transparent still? Yes

13:47Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence.

14:20Learn more by visiting ACAST.com slash advertise.

14:33Norman Baker, welcome back to The Daily Tea. You're a former Liberal Democrat MP and you're author of And What Do You Do? What the Royal Family Don't Want You to Know and Royal Mint National Debt, The Shocking Truth About the Royal's Finances. And to be fair, Norman, well, first of all, compliments on your nearly Hawaiian shirt, dressed appropriately for this unfeasibly hot weather. Second of all, thank you for joining us. You've poured through these documents because you're a campaigner for transparency when it comes to the royal coffers. First of all, what's your reaction to this revelation that the King and Queen aren't going to live at Buckingham Palace and neither, probably, are William and Kate?

15:13Well, it's been rubbed for some time that Charles didn't want to live in Buckingham Palace, and I think if he doesn't want to live there, that's fair. Why should he be made to live somewhere he doesn't want to be? What I would say, however, is that we've spent, we the taxpayer, have spent I think it's£359 million on refurbishing Buckingham Palace, up from an original estimate of£50 million, by the way. That's all come from the taxpayer, although back up to 1952, the king himself took responsibility for upkeep of Buckingham Palace. That's a lot of money to be spent. And, of course, we've got ticket sales for visitors coming in.

15:46But at the moment, the ticket sales and the income from that all goes to the king because it's regarded by the monarch as, quote, private income, unquote. It goes towards the royal collection. So I think if Charles and Camilla don't want to live there, that's fine. They can live in Clarence House, which I understand is their intention. But what should happen, in my view, is that the palace should then be open all the year round for visitors. And all the money that comes in from ticket sales should go to the Treasury to help pay back the massive investment the taxpayers made. It's not a bad shout, that, Hannah.

16:19Do you think it takes away anything from the monarchy? Because we talk quite a lot about tourists. It brings in money to this country brand, Britain. Do you think it's going to damage that? I think if you open it the way I suggested, you get more tourists into Buckingham Palace. At the moment, they're limited to certain months of the year. That would, in fact, massively increase the take. If you look at, for example, the Palace of Versailles in France, which earns much more than Buckingham Palace, that's opened, of course, all the year round because there's no French monarchy anymore. It hasn't been since 1848.

16:50And yet it's a jewel in the crown, if you like, of the French nation. I think the alternative to Buckingham Palace either is grotesquely underused, which I think would not be a sensible way forward, or it's sold off, and who knows who might buy it, some Russian oligarch. No, it needs to be kept in public hands, and I think it needs to be repaying its way in the way I've suggested a Chief start. Norman, other revelations include the fact that the King paid£12.9 million in tax last year. William, in turn, paid£7.76 million. William revealed to be a billionaire, if you count the Duchy of Cornwall's net assets, of£1.2 billion.

17:27I mean, you must be rubbing your hands together with glee, Mr Baker, because you have been asking for these figures for quite some time. So are you now satisfied that we know enough about the royal finances? Absolutely not. And my hands have not been rubbed with glee at any point today since I found out what was released. Look, it's a step forward, but it's actually a step to where we were before because when Charles was Prince of Wales, he declared how much tax he was paying. It's only when he became king that stopped, and it stopped because William didn't want to announce how much he was paying.

17:58So William's now been forced into an embarrassing U-turn to declare how much he's paying. But even so, we don't know how it's broken down between the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall incomes on the one hand, for the respective members of the royal family, compared to, for example, investment money coming in, dividend money, and also the private money that comes from, for example, the ruthless commercialisation that's taking place of places like Balmoral and Sandringham. So it would be useful to have that breakdown. And also to know how much has been claimed in expenses, because we do know when Charles was Prince of Wales, he successfully offset Camilla's stapling for horses and also her dresses against the Duchy of Cornwall, which is a bit of a stretch, considering they weren't even married at the time.

18:42He even tried to claim as polo ponies. So I think we need to know what the expenses are being claimed. And it's no different to how you would see a Member of Parliament or a Motherhouse of Lords or a local councillor. And the rule has to be, if you're receiving public money, you must be accountable for it. Yeah, but you've talked about the ruthless commercialisation of, for instance, Balmoral and Sandringham, which are private residences. Yes, they are. What's wrong with that? I mean, I take your point, I think, when it comes to public funds being spent on public figures in the execution of their public role, that's one thing.

19:14And I think full transparency is fair enough. To be honest, Norman, we might want to see when you're an MP, how much money you're getting in on donations, what you're spending it on, who you employ in your office and all the rest of it. It's none of my business what's in your personal bank account and how much you spend on your private holidays or indeed on your private home. No, well, I mean, that's the difference I established when I was campaigning as an MP for MPs. It's expensive to be opened up. I was the first MP to put a Freedom of Information request in, which your paper subsequently reported, of course.

19:47The difference in Balmoral and San Diego, not that we should know that per se, but we need to know what the overall sum is in order to assess that against the other sums which make up the figure that King and William are given today. That's the point. And since the king became the king, the figures the palace have given us today show that King and William have paid around£50 million in taxes since 2022. Does that surprise you? Do you think it's going to give critics of the monarchy more grist to their mill? Well, I think it just shows how much money they've got coming in because the top rate of tax is 45%.

20:22Even assuming that a great deal is put to one side by way of business expenses, that still suggests an enormous income. and something like 100, 200 times the Prime Minister's salary for the king. There is an issue, which we probably haven't got time to go into here, about the actual status of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall. They were regarded in Victorian times as government departments. They're regulated by legislation, so I don't really accept that they're private estates. And in my view, they should be wrapped up into the Crown Estate, which, of course, is a public body. And that would, of course, reduce the income and mean more money for the Treasury, which is where I think we should be going.

20:56The overall point, I think, to make today is that£100 million, which is now the figure for the sovereign grant being set for the future, is more than three times what it was in 2011. That's a massive increase in inflation terms. And our old family costs, in my estimate, about£500 million a year, half a billion pounds a year, which is ten times more than the nearest European monarchy. And you have to ask yourself, is that really a justifiable figure? So I want to see from the King and Prince William to build on this one step of transparency, a campaign from them, really, to reduce the cost of the monarchy because it's too high as it presently is.

21:37OK, but say if we did say it was half a billion, so 500 million, help us with the maths, Norman, because we're journalists, and you account for, say, the population of the UK, let's call it 70 million, then how much are you saying that they're costing per person per year? Well, what I'm saying is that other European monarchies have a different approach, and we should have the same approach as they do. I know, but they don't have the same constitutional sort of significance or history, and they're all riding around on bicycles as virtual unknowns. They have got the same constitutional history, but they are on bicycles, that's perfectly true.

22:11Of course, Charles is very green, allegedly, so he wouldn't mind being on a bicycle, perhaps. But look, I mean, the other monarchies in Europe have the king and the queen, they have the next in line, which in this case would be William and Kate, and they have their children. And I don't really see why we should support anybody else in public funds at all. OK. Norman Baker, thank you very much indeed for joining us today. Great to speak to you. Thank you. Hannah, somebody has crunched the numbers called Carol Vorderman, and we've worked out that£500 million divided by£70 million is£7.14 per person per year for the royal family.

22:46Which is a lot more. We used to compare it to the price of stamps or the price of coffee. Well, we compared it to the price of a cup of coffee. Now, that isn't relevant anywhere outside of the M25. I was in Sloan Square the other day and they were literally charging seven quid for a cappuccino in some kind of strange Ralph Lauren cafe. But can I just say, I didn't buy it. There were ice creams for£8.50. I also rejected those, Hannah, and I went to the supermarket and bought a packet of Magnums. I just want to confirm that now, because I tell you what, if I give up on journalism, I could teach the royals something about value for money.

23:19And it starts with do not shop anywhere near Sloan Street. But the point is£7 per person for the royals. I mean, what's the alternative here, I suppose? We have a president and then we pay for their upkeep and we give them somewhere nice to live. I mean, they're not going to start dossing it on a council estate, are they? No, and I suppose this is a gamble that they're taking, isn't it? They're trying to be a bit more transparent. They're tiptoeing towards it, as Norman said. It's not enough for some people, but it'll be enough for a lot of people. but it opens them up to very specific questions of are they worth this much money how much tax do they pay it gives critics a little bit more to hold on to yes and also I think it invites questions about the work to funding ratio you know we've got this slimmed down monarchy probably too few royals to go around if we're honest what was the figure it's like 11 of them left and an average age of 66, I think.

24:17So you've got to put in the hours for that. You've got to basically be the Princess Royal on steroids going madly after engagements for the public to say, well, actually, look at them. They're so hardworking. They're troopers. And they are. They've made a point in the annual review this year of how much work they are doing. So the king is doing about 300 more engagements than his late mother was at the same age. All right. That's good. I mean, in his late 70s, has had cancer. Is still having treatment for cancer. So these are energetic working royals. There just aren't that many of them. And it's a translation of do the public feel like they're getting value for money?

24:52So he might be going out and unveiling plaques and cutting ribbons and talking to people and doing loads of good work. But a lot of this is emotion, isn't it? A lot of it is about what people feel. Are they getting value for money? And we've also got a parliamentary committee pouring over the royal residences. I think the biggest takeaway from these royal finances is the properties they have and whether or not they're occupied. Yes, but an empty Buckingham Palace doesn't necessarily help that. No. Although they have their explanation. They're going to open it up. They use it for work. I know. We've both been inside Buckingham Palace quite a lot, really, in the course of our working life.

25:28Often there. Not for a sleepover. Always there. But you're more likely to see a spot of damp than you are a member of the royal family, aren't you? Or you were before this resurfacing. it's full of staff listening to what you're saying tidying your rooms I can understand why they don't want to live there it isn't cozy and comfortable but they need to find a way to explain and translate the idea that we're staying where we're comfortable in our nice warm smaller house to what are we doing with Buckingham Palace we have a glimpse of it but they need to fill it also I think kind of the king and queen can maybe get away with it they're older they're set in their ways.

26:04He's been the longest serving heir apparent in history, largely operating out of Clarence House. I think it becomes more difficult for William and Kate, who will no doubt be on the throne for much longer, there with their children. And crucially, I mean, we can already see the barbs coming from the Republicans and the left. William is somebody who likes to champion homeless people and talk about the availability of housing. People are quite obviously going to ask, well, you've got so many hundred room mansions sitting empty at night, maybe you should put a few people up. And it's going to be hard for them to ignore those sorts of criticisms.

26:40Yeah, I think that's right. And the centre of gravity has been drifting to Windsor, hasn't it, since Covid. We haven't had a monarch sleeping in Buckingham Palace since Covid. Windsor Castle seems to be becoming slightly more the office. William's made it clear that he wants Windsor to be his sort of forever home. Things are drifting in that direction. This is a move, once Buckingham Palace is open again to the public, it will feel a little bit more reinstated. The king goes there most days. We have photographs of him coming and going there for work quite regularly. They'll be able to host state visits again.

27:12So have your visiting presidents staying in Buckingham Palace. That's right. The flag will still fly, interesting, whenever the king sleeps in London. So even if he's sleeping at Clarence House, the royal standard will fly at Buckingham Palace still. It's just, for me, this is a big sort of cultural icon. It's a British thing. You've got your Paddington books, A.A. Milne, Changing the Guard at Buckingham Palace, the BFG. It's such a part of national consciousness. James Bond walking down the corridor. Is it going to be as exciting? If you're bringing your family to London, there was once this idea that you might see the late Queen sort of peeking out from behind the curtains.

27:49Is it as exciting if they're not living there? Possibly. Can I just correct one myth about that royal standard? Go on. People say it's as big as a football pitch. It isn't. It's as big as a tennis court. And I'm going to leave that ball in your court, Hannah, until the next time we both appear together on the Royal Tea. I'll be back with Tim on Monday at 5pm.

28:25Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling, right? That's how podcast advertising works. A host who's built real trust with their audience talks about your brand in their own words, in their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence.

28:58Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.