After Gregg Wallace and the Gaza doc - is it time to defund the BBC?

0:02The Telegraph.

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0:56Is it time to defund the BBC, Tim? we've got not one but two scathing reports into BBC failures, one on their Gaza documentary, which was found to be inaccurate, and another on how they failed to stop Greg Wallace. We talked to Sir John Whittingdale, former Culture Secretary, who says that Tim Davey, the Director-General of the BBC, will surely be considering his position. And also, Camilla, we discuss what it's like to be trolled in Centre Court of Wimbledon. Welcome to The Daily D with me, Camilla Tominey. And me, Tim Stanley.

1:40Two big BBC reports, Tim. Hard to know which one is more damning. Shall we start with Craig Wallace? Yes. There were over 80 allegations made against him. 45 have been upheld. There's been a report by the law firm Lewis Silken into the handling of the issue by the BBC. It was commissioned by Banerjee, which is the independent production company behind Masterchef. That's been going for more than 20 years. Basically saying a couple of things. First of all, obviously, some of those allegations have been upheld. So they found that over the course of around 19 years, Wallace was found to have made dozens of sexually explicit, sexualised, racist and inappropriate comments during those years on the show, as well as three incidents of being in a state of undress.

2:28And they've also said that the BBC had no consolidated or centrally held information about the complaint. So basically a new person would complain and it would be treated as if it was a first offence because nobody was joining up any of the dots. It also found that the BBC had warned Greg Wallace six years ago that they had received complaints about his behaviour and that if anything further happened he would be fired. and yet did nothing when subsequent allegations were made. The BBC said, This behaviour falls below the values of the BBC and the expectations we have for anyone who works with us or for us.

3:07Although the full extent of these issues were not known at the relevant time, opportunities were missed to address this behaviour, both by the production companies running Masterchef and the BBC. We accept more could and should have been done sooner. The story was complicated or given additional colour by Greg Wallace's defence that he suffers from autism. Yes. And he's neurodivergent and this is why he couldn't wear underwear or why he made inappropriate remarks without realising that they were offensive, that it was a quote-unquote masking technique to cover up for his social awkwardness. That's unbelievable, isn't it?

3:45Well, it is a thing. Some people are indeed uncomfortable with wearing certain labels, though I don't know why you would feel uncomfortable wearing underpants but not trousers. Well, hypersensitivity to labels and tight clothing. Yes. Just wear a dressing gown. Quite. I don't think that then justifies or excuses actually showing others your genitals, does it? Yes. But what I thought was interesting with that is that he was also trying to blame the BBC by suggesting that it was a failure to take care of him. He has a slight point, by the way. He was recruited to be this cheeky chappy. He presents VegTalk for Radio 4.

4:23Someone somewhere in the BBC thought, hang on a minute, this is great. This is a former Millwall fan. He's tattooed. He speaks in a Cockney accent. He was a fruit and veg seller in Covent Garden. And that could kind of, you know, this whole criticism that there were too many people speaking sort of the Queen's English or even Estuary English. Let's get an Eastender in to try and look as if we're down with the kids. So he was specifically recruited to bring this kind of realism to the table. Yeah. But obviously he's taken cheeky chappy rather too far. Yeah. And the issue here for me is an organisation which, as you said, does not have the proper structures in place to take criticism and pass them on and make sure that things are enforced.

5:04And it brings to mind other accusations of sexual inappropriate behaviour at the BBC, namely Jimmy Savile and Hugh Edwards. And again, in both cases, I'm being very careful with my language here, but similar sorts of problems were noted. That it wasn't just the individual who was wrong here, but also there was an institutional failure as well. A failure to police, a failure to pass things on, a failure to make sure the complaints were actually listened to. Also, I think there's always an overemphasis on the importance of talent. Yes. And there's a suspicion of that, isn't there? that there was a reluctance to pass on complaints directly to Greg Wallace because they didn't want to frighten off the man in front of the camera.

5:45Yeah, but it's such a misunderstanding. Talent needs to behave the best on a set. If you're the talent, you have to set an example and behave well so that that trickles down to producers and others. The BBC, and indeed it happens a lot in television, there's this thing, oh, it's the talent and the show's doing so well. Like, unfortunately, and I say this as apparent talent, You are dispensable. You've got 100 people behind you wanting your job. Yes. So if you behave badly and you're fired, funny enough, the show will still go on. They're debating now whether they show the last series that Greg Wallace filmed.

6:22He's now been replaced by Grace Dent, the food critic, to carry on producing MasterChefs with John Turode. I don't think there's going to be this sudden exodus from the BBC. Oh, no, we can't watch Greg Wallace, you know, tasting desserts with a massive spoonful. I mean, somebody else will just take his place. They do this. They fuss around. Oh, what are we going to do without Hugh Edwards? Or Gary Lineker. And I'm not saying Gary Lineker is in the same problem at all. No, we're not associating him with these kind of complaints. But it's another example of the BBC clinging on to talent, despite the criticism against that person, because they clearly worry that without that person in front of the camera, the format is going to collapse and they're going to lose viewers.

7:02Will match of the day survive? Yeah, because blokes like watching the football highlights every Saturday night. So, OK, we did quite like Gary, but if anyone who knows anything about football is able to present it, we'll listen. These things come in twos, at least. On the same day as the Wallace report came out, at lunchtime, the Gaza report came out that confirmed that a BBC documentary about Gaza breached editorial guidelines on accuracy by failing to disclose that the narrator was the son of a Hamas official. The report was carried out by Peter Johnston, the BBC's director of editorial complaints.

7:37The documentary was called Gaza, How to Survive a War Zone and was aired by the BBC in February without audiences being informed that the narrator was the son of a minister for Hamas, which of course is a prescribed terror group. It was made by the production company Hoyo Films, but the BBC has acknowledged that it should have done more to establish the background of the narrator. The review found that the independent production company Hoyo bears most of the responsibility for the failure. However, it does say the BBC also bears some responsibility. And the BBC said it was taking appropriate action to review accountability, but did not name any individuals facing disciplinary action.

8:13The Telegraph understands that Deborah Ternus, the chief executive of the BBC News and Current Affairs, and Joe Carr, the BBC's head of current affairs, were among those to view the documentary before it was broadcast. The review found that three members of the independent production company knew of the father's position, but no one within the BBC knew at the time. However, the report criticised the BBC team for not being, quote, sufficiently proactive with initial editorial checks and for a, quote, lack of critical oversight or unanswered or partially answered questions. The review said it had seen no evidence to, quote, support the suggestion that the narrator's father or family influence the content of the programme in any way.

8:54It added that the narrator's scripted contribution to the programme did not constitute a breach of due impartiality. A financial examination found that a fee of£795 was paid for the narrator, paid to his adult sister, an amount which was not, quote, outside the range of what might be reasonable in the context. Tim Davy, the Director General, has responded saying, We will now take action on two fronts, fair, clear and appropriate actions to ensure proper accountability and the immediate implementation of steps to prevent such errors being repeated. Camilla, the reason why this is so particularly politically explosive is because it lands in the middle of a war.

9:30To repeat, this was an independent production company, but the BBC itself is accused by some of being too pro-Gaza, by others of being too pro-Israel. Clearly, with this failure, its impartiality is again going to come into question. Yes, but also the BBC, when it responded to the report, put this line in its defence which was, Israel doesn't let any journalists into Gaza, as if that's a defence to a lack of journalistic due diligence. And the problem for the BBC here is that this whole farrago was exposed pretty easily and pretty quickly by a freelance journalist called David Collier. OK, now this guy forensically looks at everything the BBC makes and pretty quickly identifies the subjects of the interviews, whether they're linked to Hamas, who they might be linked to if not Hamas and whether they are the suitable candidates to be in a documentary made by our national broadcaster.

10:31So a job he did in seemingly a day or two, the journalistic diligence he applied to looking at this documentary, it doesn't really matter what David Collier's motivations are, by the way. He performed a better piece of journalism in his exposing of this documentary for what it was than the journalists who made it showed. And that's hugely problematic because you and I are paying for this journalism. It is, yes. And it's not discerning enough. And that whole idea about nobody takes responsibility. Now, I'm sorry, down in that newsroom there, you and I know, if we are responsible for a cock-up of those sorts of proportions, I think we'd probably have quite a difficult discussion with our editors.

11:14and I think probably someone somewhere would have to take responsibility. Now, that could be us as individuals. It could be the editor vicariously. The BBC is the public. There's no point saying, oh, well, we didn't make it. You're the publisher. You're the broadcaster. The buck does seriously stop with you. You've put it on the air. Yeah, and that we didn't make it doesn't work because of what you said at the beginning there about people will always say Israel doesn't let journalists in. That is correct. And as Douglas Murray likes to say, there are only two ways of getting into Gaza, with the IDF or via Hamas.

11:48Because of the nature of the control of information, because Gazan society is controlled by Hamas, if you broadcast anything that comes out of Gaza, it is highly likely that Hamas will have been involved in it. So it's not good enough for the BBC to say, well, no one told us. They viewed it. They should have asked. They should have investigated because anything that is broadcast from there is likely to be tied back to Hamas. I will add that doesn't necessarily invalidate the final report, so long as you say that Hamas were involved. But actually, it could well be that the boys' experiences are still perfectly bad and interesting and people might want to see them.

12:27But the failure to do due diligence in a war situation in which it is practically impossible not to become involved with Hamas if you're not doing it via the Israeli government means that the BBC, I don't think, can pass the buck on this one. Well, joining us now to discuss the bigger BBC picture is the former Culture Secretary, Sir John Whittingdale. Now, these two reports aren't great for the BBC. They make for very difficult reading, not least for the Director General, Tim Davey. This is something that you had to deal with when you were in government. Has the time finally come to defund the BBC, not just in light of these recent controversies, but because the face of television is changing and it's changing rapidly along with technology.

13:11Well, that is completely true. And I do think that the complete transformation in the way in which television is consumed and broadcast does put into question the whole viability of the licence fee. I mean, I do think that is a separate question from the difficulties that the BBC has had with some content. We have these two latest examples, But actually, you know, my experience of this dates back to long before I was Secretary of State, because, of course, for 10 years before that, I chaired the Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee, which was when we had such things as the, you remember, the initial news night, Jimmy Savile, which didn't go ahead.

13:53We then had the accusation against Lord McAlpine. We then had the Jonathan Ross, Russell Brand incident. And there's just been a succession ever since. And, you know, most recently, things like Hugh Edwards and now Greg Wallace and the Hamas documentary. The BBC produces a vast amount of content and output and things do go wrong. But what worries me is that every time you get an incident like these latest ones, the BBC will say, oh yes, we've had a full investigation, things went wrong, but we've learned lessons, we've put in place new measures, but it doesn't seem to stop it happening again. So I do think that's a big issue, but I think the question of the funding is a different one, but equally one which needs very much to be addressed.

14:41Can I push back on that, Sir John, because one might argue that yes, they're separate issues, But the reason why the management of the BBC is such a controversial issue is because of the funding question, because you and I have to pay for it if we want to own a television. Therefore, when the BBC makes really bad editorial mistakes, which I'm sure all production companies do, it matters more because we are compelled to finance the organisation that's made those mistakes. That is a factor, I would agree. But the BBC is the national flagship broadcaster. It is owned by the state. It has a worldwide reputation.

15:23How it's paid for is an issue which we will debate. But I think actually the need for the BBC to maintain the highest possible editorial standards is going to remain whether or not it's funded by a licence fee or not. If the BBC is to continue to enjoy the reputation, which is so much an important part of what it represents, then it has got to make sure that these editorial failings don't occur. But maybe the reason why these editorial failings keep on occurring is because they know that whatever they do, the money will keep on rolling in. We now have a situation where public trust in the BBC is at an all-time low.

16:03According to a Merlin strategy poll, more Britons say they do not trust the BBC than those who trust it, which is a terrible state of events. It is. And it is mirrored by the fact that more and more people are consuming their news from a huge range of different sources, particularly a lot on social media. And that is perhaps contributing to the fact that people no longer automatically turn to the BBC. In moments of national crisis, people still do. But, you know, I do believe that the impartiality requirements on the public service broadcasters, and we're not just talking about the BBC, they apply equally to ITV, to Channel 4, they are an important part of public service broadcasting.

16:49And I still think there is a need for public service broadcasting. But impartiality and reliability is an absolutely essential part of that. Is part of the issue here a size problem? that the BBC is so big that it's lost control of what's going on in its organisation. To connect two very different things, you have on the one hand it hiring independent companies, which of course it's supposed to do, to produce documentaries. So it then says, well, we just didn't realise what was going on internally in those companies. On the other hand, at Glastonbury, it sends 400 members of staff to cover the festival.

17:24This all smacks to me of an organisation that's too big, too wieldy, and isn't in control of itself. It's sort of metastasised. Well, I mean, I think that is also an issue that needs to be debated, which is whether or not the BBC has to be so big. The BBC has continued to grow, despite the fact that the amount of content available through alternative broadcasters has absolutely mushroomed. You know, you now have, what, seven, eight, nine streaming services. You have a range of other free-to-air services. is does the BBC need to be doing as much as it does and therefore does it need to be paid for by the licence fee at the amount that it is currently set?

18:05That, I think, is also a legitimate question. But the other issue which I've been sort of suggesting or thinking about is that the BBC, as you rightly say, is an enormous organisation. The management of it is a huge task, but also so is the oversight of what it produces. Now, the Director General has also the title Editor-in-Chief, and it is at least arguable that actually it's almost impossible for one person to do both of those roles. Each of them is a huge task. And the fact that there have been failings in the overall editorial control suggests to me that perhaps we need to think again about whether or not there shouldn't be some separation of the editorial oversight from the management of the corporation.

18:54We've had the Labour MP Paul Waugh this morning suggesting that Tim Davies should consider his position. That's been supported by Stuart Andrew, who is the Shadow Culture Secretary. We've spoken to other people in the past on this podcast about Tim Davies' future. I mean, you've listed some controversies that, to be fair, took place before he became Director General. But on his watch, we have had, as you say, the Hugh Edwards scandal. We've had the Greg Wallace scandal. We've had the Gary Lineker scandal. We also had it emerged on his watch that Martin Bashir had used those extremely nefarious tactics to secure that panorama interview under the noses of BBC chiefs.

19:36We've had the Gaza documentary being pulled. We've had general concerns about BBC partiality when it comes to covering the Middle Eastern conflict. I mean, these controversies are racking up, aren't they? Doesn't he have to take vicarious responsibility for this and consider now, after five years in office, whether it might be time to step down? Well, obviously, I mean, the list that you've set out, I mean, all of those are very serious issues. I do have a certain sympathy for the Director-General because, and I'm not just talking about Tim, but all Director-General's, because things do go wrong.

20:11I mean, I was one of those who questioned George Entwistle when I chaired the Select Committee about the fact that, as Editor-in-Chief, He had done nothing to check whether or not the accusations being levelled against a senior political figure, in this case, Lord McAlpine, had any foundation. And it was shown that they didn't. And he subsequently resigned. Tony Hall was director general. He was having to carry some of the blame for the Bashir interview, which you mentioned just now. And it is I don't want us to reach the position that the director general almost always is going to end up having to resign sooner or later because things will always go wrong.

20:49But, you know, I have a lot of respect for Tim. I've no doubt that he is considering his position, but I wouldn't want just to jump on the bandwagon of those who say, oh, because something went wrong at Glastonbury or something went wrong in the investigation of Greg Wallace, neither of which I suspect he had any direct involvement with, that he should therefore carry the can and go. I think it's right that somebody should be held to account, but I don't necessarily think it has to be the Director-General. Has the political moment for reform with the BBC passed now that there's a massive Labour majority?

21:24Charter renewal is coming up in 2027. Had there been a Tory majority, then they might have compelled it to reform. Now there is such a big Labour majority and Labour just loves the BBC. Is Labour going to give the BBC a free pass? Or do you see signs, particularly coming out of Lisa Nandy, of the government being more critical of the institution? Well, I don't know. I mean, there are several issues. There is the charter renewal process. I oversaw the charter renewal the last time, and we made certain changes, which I have to say I'm slightly disappointed and not had the impact I had hoped for.

21:58We put impartiality into the overriding top line requirement of the BBC. We put in a requirement for distinctiveness, which was supposed to mean that they weren't chasing ratings by competing with the commercial sector, offering content which wasn't really connected with public service. And of course, we also put the BBC under the external oversight of Ofcom. Previously, there was no independent process for adjudicating complaints. Those changes were made, but they don't seem to have achieved the change that certainly I had hoped they would. So I think that this charter renewal does need to revisit those issues, and perhaps we need to do more to tighten the controls to ensure that this kind of incident doesn't occur.

22:43But then there is again, alongside that, there is the funding issue. And the biggest challenge the BBC has is that more and more people each year are saying they don't want to pay the licence fee. And they're doing so because they are subscribing to streaming services, they're getting their news from the internet, and they're just saying, we don't see why we have to pay£175 a year for something we don't need and don't want. and they can do that, which means that the number of people paying the licence fee is falling each year. And if that continues, then it puts the BBC in the downward spiral because the BBC will say, well, we have less money, so we're going to have to make further cuts and quality will suffer.

23:24So I think the funding of the BBC is rapidly reaching the point where we have to look at alternatives. So, John, on that note, just to finish, do you watch the BBC as much as you did when you were Culture Secretary? No, because I love television and I find that actually, you know, there's fantastic series of content. I subscribe to, I think, at least five streaming services, Netflix and Amazon and Apple and Disney and Sky, all of which are producing great shows. Now, what the BBC does do is the classic public service broadcasting requirement of news and current affairs and documentaries, arts, religion, education, which are much harder to find outside.

24:11There are one or two alternative providers, but nothing like people on the same scale on the BBC. And that, to me, is what the BBC needs to do. And BBC Radio is also unique in that there is very, well, not completely, but there is very little other talk-based provision, apart from podcasts, excellent that your own is. But then also you have the BBC World Service, which is something I again think is of enormous value to the UK. So we still need the BBC, but does it need to be costing as much as it does? Does it need to be doing as much as it does? Those, I think, are very legitimate questions. So, John Whittingdale, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea.

24:52Thank you. Do you watch the BBC much, Tim? I am struggling to think of something I regularly watch on the BBC. I think the answer is no. Line of Duty? That was some time ago and it's been... Isn't it now available on Netflix? I don't know. I watched The Gold recently, which was about the Brinks map. Right. Robbery, and that's on The Beeb. I watch a lot of old BBC on the iPlayer, but I've come to the view, like Noel Coward, that television is something for appearing on, not for watching. Look at you. What has happened to you? But I could say to you, I mean, you're on it all the time. I'm not on the beat that much.

25:25No. I can't do politics live anymore because we're recording this podcast, sometimes on question time like you. But if I can give a classic example of where things have gone so wrong, which you might agree on, is the BBC's coverage of the last election. It's election night special. In the olden days, you just did tune into the BBC because you had to. And it was David Dimbleby and it was deadly serious and it was the swingometer and they went live from the major results. Last year's, I very much liked the two presenters who were involved, personally, but it was a disaster. You should have watched me on GB News.

25:55I was broadcasting all night. Right. Indeed. I tell you what... And I was getting my results off Twitter. It was bad because they weren't doing what you pay for the BBC to do, which is do what no one else will, which is we'll go there and we'll get that instant result. Instead, I was following results on social media. To me, it's not just a question of I have abandoned the BBC because social media is better. I think it's actually the BBC's got worse and that's why I'm increasingly relying on social media. But I think we look at the BBC as if it's just the news. And actually, look, I'm a big fan of great big BBC productions, but I do find the news has been biased and I think that they have acted like Keir Starmer's stenographer since he took office.

26:36Yes. And yet, at the same time, you get lots of lefty types talking to us about being client journalists for the Tories and it's like you're doing exactly the same for Labour so you're all just a bunch of hypocrites. And I'm sorry, I've personally found their coverage of the Middle East really biased against Israel. So, I mean, lots of people say they think it's been biased in favour of Israel, which is confusing. But that is a problem that it might not have if it wasn't financed by the licence fee payer. This is why I wonder if, would the Church of England be better off if it was disestablished because then it wouldn't have to worry about its public sector remit anymore?

27:10I wonder if would the BBC be happier if it wasn't under the spotlight all the time because the public finances it? I don't think Gen Zs will be that bothered about the heritage factor of the BBC either. They're so used to subscription services. I mean, look at John Whittow. He's saying he's subscribing to five different things. He's a former culture secretary. That's how the young consume things online now. And also, by the way, they expect things for free on YouTube and such like. So the idea of then stumping up£170 a year, I think they'll find that anathema by the time they become middle-aged.

27:42But I do take his point that the BBC is woven into British life like the NHS or the Royal Family. It does things like Radio 3. Without the BBC, would a commercial provider do something where it actually finances orchestras and performances and broadcast the entire thing and has expert commentators come on to talk about it? Then again, again, its setting of the proms last year was dreadful. Some awful talking heads who you felt didn't know what they were talking about. They were just responding to their failings. Yes. Part of the problem here is the BBC is trying to catch up with everyone else so its content increasingly looks like everyone else.

28:18The transformation of Newsnight. Newsnight used to be a magazine show which made the news. Now it's a chat show. And it's very... I still enjoy it. I think it's better, actually. But what are they doing? They're copying GB News. It's so obvious. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that, but it's so obvious. The BBC is now trying to be like the GB News, conversation about the news rather than necessarily always setting it. This leads us on nicely to our and finally segment of today's podcast because before I came up here, I just read a piece that somebody had written for The Telegraph on how staid and boring the Wimbledon coverage was.

28:51Right. Andrew Castle's been criticised for just being slightly twee. Andre Agassi was brilliant but wasn't used enough. Is that whole formula of Annabelle Croft and Tim Henman and Pat Cash a little stayed compared to the TNT coverage, which featured Nick Kyrgios and indeed, I think, Craig Doyle, and it was all a bit more fun and colourful. But many people will have watched the tennis on the BBC and love it for that. And it does lead us into our next conversation about me being trolled at Wimbledon at Centre Court, would you believe, Tim?

29:27I'm Vinicius Rainey. And I'm Roland Olyphant. As hosts of The Telegraph's podcast Iran the Latest, it's our job to keep you up to speed on what's going on in the Middle East. Join us every day as we ask, can the US put an end to Iran's nuclear ambitions once and for all? Who will come out on top in the peace talks? Has this war damaged America's ability to take on China? And what are the long-term implications for the wider world? Search Iran the Latest and listen wherever you get your podcasts. We're also now on video. Watch us on YouTube and on The Telegraph's website.

30:06Camilla, for 15 years I've been doing journalism and every year my mother has said to me, get me tickets to Wimbledon, get me tickets. And I've always said, it's not possible. And then you were at the most important game, the men's finals in Centre Court. That's amazing. It was astonishing because I'd been at Lords on Saturday, which wasn't something through work. It was actually somebody privately got me some tickets, me and my husband. So I kind of like tweeting, if Carlsberg did Saturdays, because I was so delighted to be at the cricket, got home from the cricket. And then my friend at the LTA, the Lawn Tennis Association, said, you won't believe this.

30:42Two tickets have just come up. Do you want them? And offered them to me because he knows I love tennis and love watching tennis and love playing tennis. In fact, I had to cancel a mixed doubles semifinal. I'm in the plate at Leverstock Green Tennis Club. Gavin and I, my partner, I said, Gav, I'm really sorry, I can't play this match. I'll play it any other day. So you play it as well? Play it as well in order to go to the men's final. And it was lots of fun. Right. Where were you seated exactly? I was seated on Roque. They were great seats. And whose side were you on in the match? I was on Alcarath.

31:13Right. And my husband was on Sinner's side. So there was a little bit of kind of spousal rivalry. Right. Were there any famous people in the box? I saw Orlando Bloom. So I looked across and went, oh, my God, Dom, it's Orlando Bloom. He was like, where? And then I did the whole zooming in on the phone thing, pretending I was taking photographs of the scoreboard. There he is. So I was zooming in on him and quite creepily taking photographs just to send to some of my girlfriends, because we love Bloom, don't we, at the end of the day. I have to ask, how does someone like, on behalf of my mum, how does someone like Orlando Bloom get tickets?

31:40No idea. So this is the curious thing. Some people get into the Royal Box, and I'm going to let you and your mum into a secret. I once went to Wimbledon and I was in the Royal Box with my former editor, Martin Townsend, because editors do get invited. and Anna Wintour was there yesterday, just about to leave as editor of Vogue. Yeah. So journalists do make it into the Royal Box. So you've got the Royal Box and Matthew McConaughey is in there, obviously alongside the Princess of Wales and her children and William. And I saw Sophie Winkleman, who did a podcast with us only recently with her husband, Freddie Windsor.

32:12But then at other times you see people like Tom Cruise and that just sitting in the crowd and they haven't got a Royal Box seat, but they have got a good seat. So Orlando Bloom must have had hospitality hospitality because he was wearing a suit and looked dressed the part. And I've noticed that with some celeb photos. They are dressed too well for a hot day to watch tennis. So they must then be in some kind of... They're being bankrolled. They're being bankrolled. They've got Castrol GTX written on the back of their suit. So just to confirm, I just got offered the tickets. I actually went to a Tesco Express in Southfields.

32:42I was very proud of myself. I went to a hardware store. I bought a little picnic baggy thing. What do I mean? Picnic basket. No, I bought a cool bag. I bought a cool bag. I went to Tesco Express. I bought my husband and I a meal deal and some other snacks. I then, to keep them cool because there was no ice, bought a packet of frozen peas and thought, this will cool it all down and throw them away. So, look, we did Wimbledon on a budget because we did buy two beers, one alcoholic, one alcohol-free for me, and it was£18.95 for two beers, which was quite a lot. And I wasn't going to start buying strawberries and cream for anything.

33:17I don't think you should ever buy fruit for over a tenner. No. And then everything was going well. I was just chatting away with my husband and I heard this shout of Camilla. So I kind of obviously instinctively turned around. It's not a name you hear that often. And then I turned and I saw this lady and she was like, oh, I thought it was you. And I was like, oh, hi. And she said, yeah. And I like reached out my hand because if anyone ever spots me in public, which sometimes I do, you'll have had it. I often get just a look of total consternation. Do I know you from somewhere? And I then have to explain who I am because I'm not really that.

33:50Journalists aren't always that famous unless they're like Anne Robinson or Piers Morgan. So I kind of like lent out my hand to sort of greet her. She was on the way behind. And then she said, oh, I'm a Harry and Meghan fan. So I don't know if you'd want to shake my hand. And you blocked me on Twitter for calling you a something beginning with W. Barkley banker. That's it. So I went, oh, that's a bit objectionable. And so it kind of like slightly sort of ruined the beginning of me watching this match because I thought, oh, there's hostility. I've got hostility towards me on my day off. Yes. And let's be honest, just for doing my job.

34:23Thought nothing more of it and then returned home to discover that she had taken a photograph of me and then sort of put it on X with a view to kind of whip up support among her fellow Sussex squatters, which is the name we use to describe trolls who criticise people who aren't, you know, slavishly devoted to Harry and Meghan. And it kicked up a bit of a storm. It did. I mean, there was a lot of support for you because regardless of the politics of it, it's a really rude and intrusive thing to do. Well, also, she then subsequently spent most of the match sort of shouting and hollering. Right. Which was quite distracting, not least for the couple next to her who kind of leaned into me and said, you know, you keep on doing what you're doing.

35:07Yes. Which was very sweet. And then you think to yourself, should you give it the oxygen of publicity? Should you address it? But I just don't really agree with people, A, being rude in public when you've been polite. If I'd been impolite, then fair enough. But I was completely polite, even in the face of just abject rudeness. And then to put something on line and just think that you can just do this stuff and get away with it. I just I don't think we should have to put up with it. Why should we? I agree. Whenever I go on television, people always say, oh, look, it's Burke from Aliens. I look a bit like Paul Reiser from Aliens.

35:40He's the corporate shill. who betrays everyone. And both in my looks and my personality and my politics, I'm a bit like Burke from Aliens. They could say that you look like the alien that came out of John Hurt's stomach. That would be worse. It could be worse. And therefore they always put up a photo of me next to Burke. But the point is that's just a stock photo they've taken off online. But the thing of someone actually photographing you without permission and putting it up and directing people to look at you and laugh at you, I do feel that is crossing the line. Well, then I thought, have I got a leg to stand on?

36:10because obviously I have worked for a tabloid and a broadsheet that like to take photographs of Harry and Meghan when they don't know they're being taken. But what about the big philosophical question of, well, we make money talking about famous people? Yes, I agree. Is this a case of if you can't take it, don't give it? If you can't take it, don't dole it out. I agree with you that she is more than welcome to write to the editor. And if she finds any problems with any of the pieces I've written in the past about Harry and Meghan, and I include the couple in this, they have a right of reply. both to the editor, legally and through IPSO, the Independent Press Standards Organisation.

36:45I don't know if I need to be kind of trolled face-to-face in my own free time. The thing about social media is it just has allowed anybody to express an opinion with impunity about anything but on matters of which they know absolutely nothing. Yes, I fear you're describing my job. Well we are meant to be jacks of all trades and masters of none Well I am a sketch writer and it is kind of my job to do these things but I like to think I punch up rather than down and I wouldn't be rude about someone who was on their day off and was trying to enjoy a game Well you wouldn't stick your notebook in someone's face if they were at a sporting event on a Sunday No I wouldn't and I do respect private lives and I don't go after family etc etc There are certain rules Leave the women and children out of this Tim But I regard Parliament as like someone being on TV.

37:37It's like you've stepped into the arena in which you are open to criticism. But if I saw someone, you know, in a poor state somewhere else or enjoying themselves or their family or whatever, I wouldn't go after them. But anyway, apart from... I'm glad the picture was taken because everyone's now familiar with my resting bitch face. Like I look really stern. This is why somebody very wise once told me, whenever you're on camera or anywhere, just always smile. because if you don't, you look very serious if you don't smile. I do anyway. So I'm always very smiley when I'm on air because you just look better.

38:10Smile for me, Tim. Yeah, look at those pearly whites. Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the show? Oh, it was fabulous. Sinner, my goodness me. Yeah, I know, I was surprised. Alcarath was slightly off his game. He couldn't get his first serves in and he couldn't execute his drop shot. Yes, but he was a model of how to lose. A model of how, and also the physicality of these players. Anyone that plays tennis knows it's all about footwork, really. It is about what you do with a racket, but you've got to have your feet in the right place. They literally do about 100 different manoeuvres before every shot to just get into the right position.

38:42I did spot something as well. Sinner, being an Italian, had this absolutely gorgeous Gucci tennis bag, which I took a photograph of. I will put it on my socials. I was like, oh, my goodness, that is like the nicest piece of kit I've seen. So it's lovely. And then just to finish on the royal theme, the Princess of Wales came and gave the trophy and then some bloke in the audience, it might have been Orlando Bloom, I'm not sure, shouted, I love you, Kate. And it was really funny. And then you could see the roars laughing and then somebody else shouted again, male, I love you, William, which I thought was quite funny.

39:13So they had a good day out. Well, new balls, please. We'll be back tomorrow at 5pm.

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