Andrew arrested: What we know and where the Royals go from here

0:28The Telegraph Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

0:45Well, what a remarkable morning, Tim. It's not every day that a member of the royal family, even though he may have lost his titles and been exiled to Norfolk, gets arrested by the police. Not only is it not every day, it's never... ...happened before. No, not since Charles I. Right, because we did have a discussion in the newsroom about whether Princess Anne had been arrested when her dog, Dolly, bit another dog. Yes. She wasn't actually ever arrested. She certainly wasn't bundled into the back of a police car. She did end up being convicted and fined for that. But this is quite extraordinary, and to discuss the events of this morning, our Royal Editor, Hannah Furness, joins us in the studio.

1:26Hannah, just take us through the scenes that have unfolded. We got into the newsroom, expected a fairly quiet morning, not least because it's the former Duke of York's 66th birthday today. What a present he woke up to. I was expecting to be writing about the king at Fashion Week today. That was on the Royal Diary. This afternoon, he's out and about doing the day job. As we got into the office, the former Prince Andrew has been arrested. He's currently in police custody. So if you imagine the scene, as far as we know for now, this is an unfolding story. Shortly after 8am, he's just had his breakfast, presumably, and not comes at Wood Farm where he's been staying temporarily, having been evicted from Royal Lodge.

2:05It's the police. We have six unmarked police cars, a group of plainclothes, what looked like police men and women, come to the door. They have arrested him. Thames Valley Police have him in custody currently on suspicion of misconduct in public office. So this all relates to the Epstein files. So you'll remember in the files that we see not only does the then Prince Andrew keep in touch with Epstein far longer than he said he did. Post-conviction. Post-conviction. After he comes out of prison, Epstein, 2010, there's still a quite close relationship, Hannah. Exactly. There are other allegations which are not related to this arrest about women, whether he spent the night with women who had been trafficked by Epstein to the UK.

2:42Police are looking at those claims that he has not been arrested for that. This relates to confidential documents during his time as a trade envoy when he was representing Queen and country overseas officially, which he received and then he appears to have forwarded on to Jeffrey Epstein for what looked like private business arrangements. This is a serious allegation about public interest. Here is this statement by the Thames Valley Police. As part of the investigation, we have today arrested a man in his 60s from Norfolk on suspicion of misconduct in public office and are carrying out searches at addresses in Berkshire and Norfolk.

3:15The man remains in police custody at this time. Assistant Chief Constable Oliver Wright said, following a thorough assessment, we have now opened an investigation into this allegation of misconduct in public office. It is important that we protect the integrity and objectivity of our investigation as we work with our partners to investigate this alleged offence. We understand the significant public interest in this case and we will provide updates at the appropriate time. I love how the police always withhold the name of the person who's been arrested. I was going to say, just to translate that into simple English, man in his 60s, Prince Andrew is 66 today, properties in Berkshire and Norfolk.

3:52We're talking Wood Farm where he's currently staying and Royal Lodge. He's staying at Wood Farm, which is closely associated with his late father, the Duke of Edinburgh. That was his base up on the Sandringham estate. temporarily because he's about to move into a different property there. He's supposed to be moving into Marsh Farm, which is down the road. It's not quite ready yet. It's quite dilapidated. So they needed him out of Royal Lodge, mostly for the optics of him still being allowed to stay in this Crown estate. So they've moved him into this quiet, secluded property, which, as you say, is deeply associated with his father.

4:22Hannah, the proceedings are now active in this case. He's been arrested. So we need to be very, very careful what we're saying about the allegations because, like anyone, it's all very well. We've had Stephen Parkinson say no one is above the law and indeed our own Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, Parkinson's predecessor as director of public prosecutions, telling the BBC only this morning this. Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has called on police to interview Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. You've said he should testify to Congress. Should he voluntarily come forward to UK police? Well, I think that's a matter for the police.

4:59They will conduct their own investigations. But one of the core principles in our system is that everybody is equal under the law and nobody is above the law. And it is really important that that is applied across the board. But just as he is not above the law, he's not below it either. So there's been a huge amount of speculation about this case. We cannot say anything that could jeopardise his right to a fair trial should the time come. Well, hence his anonymity in the police statement, which I just find so curious. I know it's a tradition in this country that you don't name someone who's been arrested in order to guarantee or help a fair trial.

5:37But we all know who it is. It always just seems particularly absurd in this instance. Also, if it was more private, if there weren't already cameramen outside the house, because the press have been watching it, obviously, for the days since he has left Royal Lodge to go up there, it would be different. But we also saw Peter Mandelson's house, quotes, raided by the police. He hasn't been arrested, the former business secretary. Even though what Andrew is accused of, it seems to me there's pretty strong evidence of Peter Mandelson doing too. Yes, and we'll get on to what misconduct in a public office is and the legal bar that needs to be reached.

6:14Before we do that, though, Hannah, you've been covering the rules for a long time, so have I. Just generally, like now envisaging Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor as he now is in the back of a police car, presumably right now in a holding room, I don't know, being offered, what, a cup of tea from a plastic cup from the vending machine? A duty solicitor? A duty, sir. I don't think they'll have a duty. By someone who doesn't even call him sir. You know, it's extraordinary. You'd have had to be doing this job for 400 years to find something to compare it to, I think. Even the abdication now seems like quite a sweet love story in comparison to a former prince in the police station answering questions about this.

6:57We keep using these words of unprecedented and seismic and so on, and this is it. Well, are we overblowing it? I mean, I think this is pretty huge. And as you said, we've got the king out and about this afternoon. What's Andrew's brother going to be doing today? Well, the king seems to have inadvertently given the green light to police acting on this. So this has been, as you know, as you have reported since 2010 at least, an issue in the public eye for a long time. Prince Andrew, what was his relationship with Epstein and what did he see? What does he know? It's only been very recently that people seem to have got the bit between their teeth looking at it officially.

7:33It's been journalists who have been tapping on this door for a long time. Now politicians, as you say, and the police finally seem to be looking at documents or wanting to look at documents. And this, for Andrew, this is the first time he's going to be facing proper questions about this from his, from authorities. Yeah, rather than Emily Maitlis on Newsnight, right? Rather than Newsnight or rather the members of his own family who, you know, one can imagine want to see the best in him. and he has been sitting there as far as we understand saying, I don't remember, I don't remember this girl, I don't remember this time of my life, this didn't happen.

8:07This is a chance for him to talk about it properly with the evidence in front of him to remind him of the things he's forgotten. And as you say, he has been arrested, he is not guilty of anything, but it's a good chance for him to tell people what he knows. Also, I think it's significant, isn't it, to just look at the effect the Epstein files have had Just to explain to people who don't quite understand, journalists can hear things. We were hearing things for many years. But until you have a document release, which then produces some evidence for what you're hearing and so-called double sources it, you hear something from one person, but you don't have anything to back it up.

8:48So just to go through with regard to this specific misconduct offence, because you pointed out quite rightly earlier, Hannah, this isn't about Virginia Giffray. This isn't about any allegations of sex trafficking. This isn't about Epstein's Lolita Express landing at Stansted, allegedly with young women in it. That's a separate thing. And other police forces are investigating this. This is purely about misconduct. And this is what the Epstein files had suggested had happened, that the former prince had leaked to Epstein reports about what had been discussed on visits to Hong Kong, Singapore, Vietnam and China, allegedly within five minutes of receiving them.

9:27A confidential brief on investment opportunities in Afghanistan's Helmand province in 2010. Again, that's to Epstein post his own conviction for procuring a minor for prostitution. Documents related to the Icelandic financial crash, allegedly allowing Epstein to organise meetings for him during an official trade mission to China with the help of German businessman David Stern. The arrangement of dinner at the St Regis Hotel in Beijing with Jess Staley, who's a senior JP Morgan figure, who has been described as Epstein's personal banker. Now, I state all this because it's worth looking at the legal bar and how high it is for misconduct in public office.

10:07Misconduct in public office is a serious common law offence that applies to individuals acting in an official public capacity. It's not set out in statute, but developed through case law over centuries. It applies where a public officer willfully neglects to perform their duty or willfully misconducts themselves to such a degree that it amounts to abuse of the public's trust. So that's currently what the police will be weighing up. It should be noted as well that those found guilty of that offence could face life in prison. But it is worth saying, and we did discuss it with Jacob Rees-Mogg, you have to reach the bar of being considered a public official.

10:42You then have to have an intent established. Was this done intentionally or by accident? So that's the threshold that needs to be discussed. I think it's also following, as you say, Hannah, not just press pressure, but political pressure. We've heard from the prime minister. We've heard from Stephen Parkinson. We've also had figures as far and wide as Vince Cable, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, and the former Home Secretary Priti Patel, all calling for investigations, parliamentary police and otherwise, Tim. Of course, as a consensus around this, why wouldn't that be? But now he will presumably be answering questions under caution.

11:21For me, the turning point, and this was a statement from Buckingham Palace last week, it was released while William was in Saudi Arabia, where they said that the palace would support the police in any investigations. For me, that was a sort of tacit green light from the king to say, he's yours. Right. I accept that my brother is going to have to answer questions from police or you are welcome to look at the documents. We will look for our files to help you. So that, for me, has been the turning point which has given everybody the sort of go-ahead to actually... I mean, the idea that police would turn up at Wood Farm, which is part of the Sandringham Estate, is the king's private estate without a little bit of cooperation or at least a willingness to assist them from the palace.

12:06Right. It's fascinating. Because hitherto, in a sense, Andrew Mountbattenwinder has been trying to handle this unofficially through things like the Newsnight interview. Yes, which we all know is a huge misstep. Horrible disaster. Not least because you cannot say that you won't answer questions from police, but you will answer them from Emily Maitlis. Yes, but there is this implication that he thought he could manage this in his way on his terms, which he thought he could do rather well because he seems to have thought he came out well in the news interview. But this is different. This is actually the wheels of justice.

12:39This is the police. This is not on his terms. And what's interesting about this journalistically is a lot of these documents that we read in the Epstein files, the emails backwards and forwards to Andrew and Epstein and their circle, come from his palace email address. And they're signed HRH, the Duke of York KG for Night Garter, a role he was very proud of having. And it begs the question, has anybody looked at these emails? Has anybody at the palace which hosts these emails had a look at the documents that are there yet? And maybe this is, if they haven't, maybe this is a chance for them to do so.

13:12Just hold that thought for a moment, Hannah and Tim. Look at this, Tim. On headed notepaper, we've got a breaking statement from His Majesty the King from Royal Communications with the Crest. I have learned with the deepest concern the news about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities. In this, as I have said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course.

13:55As this process continues, it would not be right for me to comment further on this matter. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all. Signed, Charles R. The monarchy is so strange. You don't say, this is about my brother. You say, this is about Andrew Mountbatten, Windsor, as if he's not related at all. But I think we can glean from this statement, as Hannah has just said. I mean, they are cooperating. Yes, clearly. They are distancing themselves personally from him. Yes. And they are saying, as the late Queen would have, we're going to keep calm and carry on.

14:37And that's probably what the British public would expect them to do.

14:51This is the other problem, I suppose, for the palace. And let's get on to that next, Hannah, because I know you're writing a piece about the impact of all this on the monarchy at large. so to speak. So this is going on right now in Norfolk. We've got the Met Police also making initial inquiries into Royalty Protection officers who were assigned to Andrew and at least eight other forces have been assessing whether to launch investigations into Epstein-related allegations. We've got Scotland Yard assessing claims made by an unnamed former bodyguard that members of the Royalty and Specialist Protection Command may have become too close to the former Duke when working for him.

15:31So we've got separate inquiries going on into what bodyguards who are subsidised by the taxpayer may have seen, were blind eyes turned. And it brings us back to this central question now as to how damaging vicariously is this for the king? I mean, what are you planning to write in your piece, which we will link to the show notes of today's episode? Well, in terms of the long term impact, we simply don't know yet. I've thought until now that the king has done enough to distance himself from the former Prince Andrew. He's taken away his titles, his styles, his honours, his home. They've been very clear that he's no longer a working member of the family.

16:09They've stopped short of completely extraditing him as far as they can because they want to keep a measure of control. They don't want him completely on the loose out in the Middle East, for example, if he finds a home out there. They would much rather that they give him, they call it a modest stipend and a roof over his head where he can live out. his days, find some kind of purpose privately and without any further scandal. That until now has seemed like a relatively sensible approach, I would say. He's never been convicted of anything. The court of public opinion seems to have decided, but the real courts have not.

16:46Now he needs to cooperate. He needs to answer questions. We're overusing the word psychic, but it does feel quite huge. It is, but it's tawdry at the same time. Normally when we talk about monarchs making history, we're talking about abdications or rebellions. This is just seedy. Yes. It is historic. I'm not disputing that, but it's so torturing and yuck. Yes, it's not some massive matter of constitutional history. No, it's not a great affair of state, is it? He's a black sheep. They found a pen for him and the police have knocked on the door. Hannah, you suggested that the royals may have given some tacit approval to this, implicit or...

17:26Explicit. Do you think his mother, had she been alive, would have allowed this? Well, I think everybody who's followed the royal family has probably had the same thought this morning, which is thank God the Queen isn't alive to see all this. Or to block it is my point. I mean, might she not have allowed this? Or to block it. I mean, we don't know. It's counterfactual history. We will never know, will we? We know that she had a natural tendency and sympathy to want to believe her second son. Which is perfectly understandable. which is understandable as up to a point she's both a mother and a monarch yes I think that she proved that when it came down to it she did make tough decisions about Andrew it was her reign where he stepped back after news night even in her very late years she was the one overseeing that huge move but then one bad interview and he was gone so she was not without the capacity to make difficult decisions when it came to her own family.

18:21If Prince Philip was alive, I imagine we would have seen this play out extremely differently. The idea that the Duke of Edinburgh, the then the late Duke of Edinburgh, would hear the idea that one of his sons may have passed confidential information to outside sources while representing the monarchy and the country is extraordinary. Prince Philip, you'll remember, was the one who said no to Sarah Ferguson ever being able to be in public with the royal family again. It was famously described as odd and pointless. I suspect Philip might have actually taken Andrew to the police station himself. Yes, possibly.

18:54You might have seen scenes of Philip in the Land Rover. Wow. But for the late Queen's memory, I mean, this is where it gets rather disturbing for the Crown, doesn't it? Questions being asked about Queen Elizabeth II's conduct, which was, let's be honest, largely exemplary over the course of 70 years. We're not now going to have some kind of exhumation of the late Queen's legacy, are we, on the back of this? I don't think it's necessary because she's not the only person who would have had reasons to suspect. But lots of other people chose to do nothing as well. It's a little like Keir Starmer and the, what did you know?

19:34You knew this man was bad, but you still employed him. OK, that's on Keir Starmer. But the entire establishment welcomed the appointment of Peter Mandelson as US ambassador. So my point about Andrew is, what did his mother know? What did she choose not to act on? OK, those are good questions. But the entire establishment would have known some things and chose not to act on them. I think it's little unfair to hang it all on one individual, especially an aged individual. Yes. And now it's posthumous. Yes. Hannah? The evidence base then is very different to what we have now. We now have these three million files in front of us.

20:09And this is why police can now act. and politicians have now sort of stepped up to call on things. The Queen did not have the benefit of this information during her lifetime. And I do think I sort of emotionally feel wary of attempts to pin the blame on Queen Elizabeth II because the idea that the NAB, I think it does a disservice to the King to think that his team had no insight and no influence in the later years of the Queen's reign. And you can't forget it was 2023 that Andrew and Fergie were brought back to Sandringham for that walk to church. And that was the king's reign. Yes, that's right.

20:48They were welcomed back into the royal fold. Also, he was a grown adult. So is Sarah Ferguson. Let's not infantilise these people and pretend that the late queen as the great matriarch had full control over their lives at that point. Also, you mentioned Prince Philip. There's dual parental responsibility for all of the offspring of a monarch. It's not just down to her. And I also think, as we know about the royal family, I cannot imagine that the late Queen was sitting down with Andrew for heart to heart about who the latest woman to visit Royal Lodge was. It's just not something that they do.

21:21No, exactly. And as you say, this is about misconduct. He denies any wrongdoing, both in regard to any allegations relating to Virginia Giffray, any allegations relating to sex trafficking. This is actually about his conduct in public office. Hannah, can we just take ourselves into the mind of Prince William right now? And I ask you that because he's been quite busy this week talking about mental health. I mean, one wonders what is going through his mind right now. What an ordeal this bloke has been put through over the course of the last five years. Yeah, well, you know, Megxit. I suspect he was spotted in a phone box putting in the complaints about Andrew.

21:59I agree. But we've had Megxit, right? He's been sold down the river by his own brother to whom he was once incredibly close. He's had to deal with cancer diagnosis of his wife and his father. He has got the absolute weight and burden of being the next monarch on his shoulders because now there are too few royals to go around. He's been instrumental in trying to exile his errant uncle out of the scene to preserve his own future reign. And no wonder he's going in. Who was he speaking to? BBC Radio 1? Radio 1 about mental health. About men's mental health. And that is one thing that's been very uncomfortable for the monarchy, hasn't it, is that they're trying to do their day jobs.

22:38They're going about trying to do the sort of good works that they want to do. And it has been nothing but overshadowed by this Andrew affair over the last few years. And of course, everyone's mental health is important, including people who are accused of things. And I think we should bear in mind that Andrew has a much diminished retinue now. He's clearly been sidelined. He's been arrested and taken in by the police. where's his head right now? I do sincerely hope there is someone looking after him because everyone in that situation deserves to have someone. Yes. Has William been heckled at jobs or just the king?

23:15He has faced questions. There was a question shouted to him by a broadcast journalist when we were in Saudi Arabia very quietly. I don't think he heard the question, but I don't think he would have answered it anyway about whether the royal family have done enough to tackle the Andrew Epstein issue. He hasn't been heckled as far as I'm aware in public. That may be because they do more things behind closed doors nowadays. If he goes to a walkabout in the coming weeks, it will be on their minds. Yeah. But you can't judge a public opinion about the royal family from heckling. No, not least when it's...

23:45Because there's always some Republicans who turn up and heckle. It's members of the republic. It's like trying to judge who will win the next general election from Twitter. This is not a fair reflection of public opinion. But it does rattle them I think so if you so I've been on a couple of jobs recently where the king has done a walkabout which I commend him for it would be very easy to scrap walkabouts at this point because you know what's going to happen and you know what the headlines are going to be there's going to be one lone person in the crowd who heckles everybody else will boo them start cheering for Charles and Camilla whoever is there and then the headlines will be that they've been heckled so fair play to him for carrying on meeting people but it must be difficult for them whether they hear it or not These are the headlines they read.

24:24It's an atmosphere they're working in. They don't like the people who they've gone to see, the charities that they're working for having to face the pressure of people going there to shout about whatever they want to shout about. It's uncomfortable, whether it's fair, whether it's representative of the general population. I think you're absolutely right. But it is difficult for them. The other thing, Hannah, this whole mantra that had served the monarchy very well, never complain, never explain, appears to need modernizing. And isn't William more of the mindset that we need to leave less unsaid?

24:56I did think it was interesting that the Prince and Princess of Wales, as you say, when he embarked on that trip to Saudi Arabia, released that statement expressing their deep concern about Epstein. Because sometimes I think they've almost been damned. I mean, you could say in Andrew's case, he wasn't damned by his silence. He was damned by, you know, I don't sweat and I was at Pizza Express in Woking. But at the same time, this kind of like no one's going to say anything seems to have acted against them overall now in a macro sense. And perhaps William needs to bring the entire institution up to date on that front.

25:29Yeah. And he has said that he will. He is minded to get rid of the never complain, never explain, which, as we know, has never really existed. They complain to us quite a lot. It's not written down. They're complaining all the time. what they mean by that is that in a William era, I think they will maintain this policy of not getting into the weeds, of getting into every little story, but he wants to see the big picture. And where questions matter, he wants to answer them in some form. You're right that he has been pushing behind the scenes, we believe, to act a little bit firmer and a little bit faster of distancing the royal family from his uncle.

26:04I think where other members of the family may have hoped it would blow over and that people will come to see Andrew's side of things, he has been quite firm that it was never going to go away. It is good for him that this hasn't dragged into his reign because it looked like this would be a problem for a future King William V to solve at some point. That it has come to a head now at least brings it to a head. It will bring some answers and it will bring some form of resolution. We don't know what that will be yet. We will wait and see. But for William, who is on half term with his children currently, it will be difficult to watch but I think he would believe it probably needs to happen Sure We better stress that we're recording this now and things may change but we want to get this Daily Tea out today earlier than normal so we may get to update it but just bear in mind this is a moving picture isn't it Tim?

26:55This is a breaking story so there'll be more developments Hannah Furness, thank you very much we'll let you go off and scribe We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm Thank you.