Badenoch: Starmer's finished and Polanski's a joke – we're the only serious choice

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:15We're in Bromley where Kemi Badenock is fighting for the Tories' political lives in what was once a very safe Conservative seat. We talked to the leader of the opposition about the madness of Zak Polanski, Her debate with pro-Palestinian activists and who would she rather face if Keir Starmer loses his job. And we're also joined by the Rabbi Doron Birnbaum, who went viral with his extremely emotional reaction to the attacks in Golders Green. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

1:57Tim, we've inadvertently found ourselves back on the road. How has this happened? Yay! And we're in your manor, aren't we? We are. We're close enough. It's very confusing. We're in Orpington, which is part of the Bromley Council. And it parades itself as Kent, but really it's south-east London. Yeah, and you haven't got great memories of this area, have you? No, I was once kidnapped in Bromley. What? That's actually true. I was 18 years old and I was on Bromley South train station. And someone mugged me. and I probably looked rich. He wasn't to know. Were you in chino's? No, no, I wasn't. I was dressed like an Edwardian, like an Edwardian prince as always.

2:35Little was he to know that those clothes were from Oxfam. Yes. And he obviously demanded everything in my pockets and he sort of got 50 pence and a piece of chewing gum. So he said, right, you're coming with me. And he marched me out of the station, past the rail guards. With a knife. I've never forgotten that. Well, he said he had a knife and I, being young, believed him. So I followed him to a cash machine. Right. Where he told me... I don't know why I'm laughing. This is actually quite scary. No, it is funny. He told me to withdraw£200, which is the limit. And I said, I haven't got£200. And he didn't believe me and said, withdraw£200.

3:10So I put it in and tried to withdraw it. And I said, it says, transaction cannot be processed, funds not available. And he said, what does that mean? And I said, it means you've picked the wrong person. Yeah. So he got 50 quid out of me. Did he? And then the very strange thing is, it's almost an act of kindness, he walked me back to the train station. I think he was worried that I might... What? I think he was worried that I might fool him with a bad crowd or something or get mugged by someone else. Is this technically kidnapping or are you being literally overdramatic? No, no, no. When I took this to the police, who never caught him of course, they said technically you were kidnapped because you were taken by force to somewhere you didn't wish to be and held there.

3:50And had to hand over money at the end. And I had to hand over money. I don't believe he ever got caught, but if he did get caught and he got, let's say, five years, then five years for£5.50 and a piece of chewing gum, crime doesn't pay. Crime doesn't pay. It's not worth it. No, it isn't. Stay in school. Well, we're here in a field that is slightly reminiscent of Theresa May's wildest dreams. She could run through here with great abandonment. It's not wheat, it's oilseed rape. It looks cider with Rosie, but behind the camera, it's suburban scrawl. And that is because, as is ever the case with all politicians right now, they're on a street in England knocking on doors trying to get people to vote for them.

4:24So we spoke to... Telling them there's a local election because they won't know. Nobody cares. Also, we don't see any leaflets or any boards. That's a very good point. You would not know there was an election. What are they playing at? That's very true. Earlier we spoke to Kemi Badenock. Conservative Party leader Kemi Badenock, we're in a field in Orpington, which is in the London borough of Bromley. should you really be here on the day before the local elections? You don't need to campaign here. This is meant to be a safe Tory seat. We are not complacent. And in this era of multi-party politics, there's no such thing as a safe seat or a heartland for any party.

5:00I'm not one of those people who takes voters for granted. So I'm going to be campaigning everywhere until the last minute. And the reason why we're here is because we're the only party that's serious about protecting London's greenbelt. Bromley is London's greenest council. Conservatives have been running Bromley for a very long time. We wanted to stay that way. You can't trust reform here. They've been voting with Labour at City Hall against the green belt. Leila Cunningham has been talking about a field like this and saying that they're industrial wasteland. I don't think so. This looks pretty green to me.

5:32Kemi, we've had some polling done, which shows that you yourself have enjoyed a bounce over the last year. The more people see of you, the more they like you. But it hasn't trickled down to the party. How are you going to deal with that problem that people, they may look at you and like you, but they just think of the Tories as 14 wasted years and they don't want to go back? So I want people to know that the Conservative Party is under new leadership, my leadership, and I've changed the party and there's more that I'm going to change. There are so many things that people thought we did wrong and they were right to remove us from office, But I'm changing the policy.

6:08People have known my views about net zero and how it's bankrupting the country. I've changed that policy, changed our immigration policy, even changed policies around tax. It's time for something new and different, authentic traditional conservatives. And my party is fully behind me. A lot of the people who cause problems lost their seats or have gone to reform. I know lots of Telegraph readers want to know, is this party really conservative? Yes, it is. And we're more than Conservative. We are united. We're one big happy family. Can you win back disaffected Tory voters, though? Because as part of that polling, which was conducted by Merlin Strategy and Charles B, they found that only one in seven switchers would go back to their old parties of Labour and the Tories if their new parties, Reform and Greens, fail them.

6:57One in seven. So they're saying, no, we've ditched the major parties for good. Well, people have said that many times before, but actually the reality is that the Conservatives are the only credible alternative to Labour. Zach Polanski is quite clearly in over his head. Reform is saying whatever it is that they can say to get elected. You saw Nigel Farage having this interview where he said, well, actually, he'd rather get rid of the two-child benefit cap after voting the other way. He's all over the place. He's got this fishy five million pounds. I mean, who's bought him for that amount of money?

7:32That's a lot of money most people never see in their lifetimes, a fortune. I'm saying, look, we are serious about fixing this country. There are a lot of problems. There are many things that are broken. But our country is the people in it. We are not broken. The people of this country have courage. They are brave. They're skilled. They're talented. Hope is coming. But that hope is coming with Conservatives. You mentioned Zach Polanski. He's obviously been dogged by boob gate. He's had to apologise for claiming to represent the Red Cross when he doesn't. Most people look at him and just think he's balmy.

8:05How do we account for the fact that so many voters, including particularly young people, seem drawn to him and his style of politics? I feel very sorry for Zach Polanski. As I said, he is clearly in over his head. And this is why I say that the protest politics we're seeing is not really a love for the Greens or a love for reform. It's people lashing out, saying things aren't working for me. The cost of living is too high. I'm struggling and no one gets it. So why not vote for this kooky person who's obviously not fit to run the country? And that's what I want to change. I want people to know that there is an alternative.

8:42There is hope. Conservatives have changed. We're not the same party that they said no to a couple of years ago. New party, new leadership. We're going to be getting lots of new candidates. We've removed lots of bad people from our party. And we've got great policies as well. I want to abolish stamp duty so that people can get on the housing ladder or those who want to downsize can do so without paying thousands of pounds. Let's help businesses. I mean, we have Labour saying that they want to tax for growth. I mean, you know, that's like drinking for sobriety. That doesn't make any sense. You need people who get business, who understand how to create jobs.

9:17The only people who have that experience in the private sector who know how to create jobs are conservatives. You know, I've got people like Mel Stride and Andrew Griffiths on my team, Chris Phil, people who started businesses, sold businesses. They know what it takes to get the economy working again. And we're a strong team. So we can do this. Talking of business owners, I was speaking to the owner of the cafe that I frequent at the station that I commute in from every morning. And he's a fairly no nonsense guy from the East End. And he basically asked me the question, which I'm now going to ask you, which is why are so many Muslims voting for a gay Jewish bloke in Polanski?

9:52And I ask that because there have been claims made against Green councillors that they're harbouring and indeed expressing very anti-Semitic views. There have been concerns about Islamic extremists creeping into that party. Has that party become a Trojan horse in some way for sectarianism? So the Green Party is now an amalgamation of Jeremy Corbyn's old hard left and people who are sectarian, who are, I would say, extremists, who do carry a lot of anti-Semitism just naturally without even knowing that there's anything wrong with it. I mean, Zach Polanski answered your question. He was telling people that Palestine is on the ballot paper.

10:32Was that yesterday or today? Palestine is not on the ballot paper. But actually, if you do poll a lot of these people, they think that that's the most important issue. And it is not. I, quite frankly, am sick and tired of our country being used as a place to fight about things that are happening thousands of miles away. It's time for us to focus on our domestic priorities. The Green Party is not focused on our domestic priorities. they're not even focused on the environment anymore. We're the ones who are talking about the environment. That's why I'm in the field today talking about the Green Belt, keeping our environment lovely.

11:04We're the only serious party. The Greens, I'm afraid, are not what many people think they are. You impressed a lot of people when you spoke with an activist after the Golders Green attack, and you stood up for yourself, and you defined anti-Semitism very well, and we could all see the genuine passion in you. But of course, people want to know what action a future Tory government would take. When you were in office, you didn't ban the Iranian Republican Guard. What would you do now that wasn't done then? So we brought in a National Security Act. It's time for us to use it. I've told Keir Starmer that I'll work with him on prescribing the IRGC.

11:41But the truth is, when you have an enemy state like that, the prescription doesn't really matter. Let's just get on and start doing things. Why, for instance, do we have an Iranian embassy that's putting out messages saying British parents should let their children be martyrs? Look at the terrorist acts that are happening on our soil. MI5 has said it, that they're foiling Iranian regime-backed plots. People don't even know that a lot of accounts on social media that were promoting Scottish independence are run by Iran. When they were bombed, those accounts stopped running. they are doing the same kind of thing they're doing with Hezbollah and the Houthis and Hamas.

12:19They're doing it here just not with guerrilla fighters, but online with misinformation. We have to tackle that. So when it comes to protecting Jewish people, I've said that we do need more security, more police patrols. But there are other things that we need to do here. Banning hate preachers, removing visas from people who shouldn't be here, who are promoting anti-Semitism, making sure that organizations like the IRGC are prescribed, removed from this country, people are expelled from this country, dealing with the misinformation which we're seeing, dealing with Islamic extremism in particular.

12:51I am very worried that Prevent, which was set up to prevent cases of terrorism, is spending most of its time on other stuff. MI5 has said about 75 % to 94%, I think, of terrorism in this country has been from Islamic extremism. extremism, it's only 10 % of prevent cases. Those are the things that we would fix. So we have a plan. We need to be in in order to implement that plan. I think Keir Starmer is just too weak. I think he's afraid. He's also afraid of upsetting certain voters. They want to get their votes back from the Greens. You look at what happened in that Gordon and Denton by-election.

13:26You know, Labour are too scared. West Streeting, you know, Angela Rayner, Jess Phillips, all these people are worried about their seats. Conservatives aren't worried. As you said, when I spoke to that heckler, to that protester, I was speaking my mind. I'm not afraid of intimidation. We have to do what is right for this country. You mentioned expelling people with very extremist views. If Iran and the embassy are responsible for pumping out propaganda, should the Iranian ambassador still be in the UK? Why not expel him? Well, I think that if the security services show this evidence to show exactly that it is coming from the Iranian regime or that the embassy has something to do with it, then yes, I think you're right.

14:04Should be expelled. Yes, I think so. If we can find that evidence, absolutely. Final question from me. Zach Polanski has said that he was traumatised by watching the violent Golders-Green arrest. So in a way, he's a victim too. When you were watching it, were you traumatised? No, I was extremely worried. It's why I say there's a national emergency. I mean, what I found most extraordinary was that Zach Polanski thought that was the time to criticise the way that the police were trying to, disarm this person. We've seen this for several years now. People who won't back our police, who think that the problem is always our country or the government.

14:41It's never the people who are trying to kill us or hurt us, whether it's in the country or all foreign elements. It's time for us to put that to an end. We need to look after our country and the people in it. And the people who want to hurt us need to get out. If Thursday is the predicted bloodbath for Labour, Keir Starmer may lose his job. So at the next Prime Minister's questions, you could be facing an altogether different opponent. Who would you rather face? They're all the same. It doesn't matter. Honestly, I can deal with any of them. It's left wing. It's either left wing with red hair or left wing with a cheesy smile or left wing eating a bacon sandwich.

15:18It's the same thing. I can deal with it. I'm not worried about whoever Labour pick. Keir Starmer is just as bad as the others. He just knows how to put on a suit and tie and comb his hair. You forgot left wing with good eyelashes. Who's that? The king of the north may come down. I think it'll probably take him some time to get there. He won't be there next week. But the truth is, I don't think that Labour have the stomach to remove Keir Starmer. They wouldn't even vote for him to be investigated at something they thought that he was innocent of. So if they don't have the stomach for that, then we're probably stuck with this guy for the next three years.

15:52Kemi Badenock, thank you very much for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you. Right, well, we'd better get back to the studio because we've got an important interview coming next. Picking up on Kemi Badenock's comments there about the rise of anti-Semitism in modern Britain, we'll be speaking to Rabbi Doran Birnbaum, who went viral with his very personal and moving response to the horrific attack at Golders Green.

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17:35Last week there was a stabbing in Golders Green that left two Jewish people injured and a man has been arrested and is in court on three charges of attempted murder. This comes off the back of other attacks, firebombing of ambulances, and the deaths of two Jewish men at a Manchester synagogue in October of last year, and a rise overall in anti-Semitic attacks in this country. The government has raised the national terrorism threat level to severe and has rolled out a number of other responses as well, which I'm sure we will mention. But one person who I think brilliantly captured the feeling of British Jews and of British people who can't quite understand what's going on was Rabbi Doran Birnbaum, who joins us today.

18:22Rabbi, you happened to be in Auschwitz with some students when the Golders Green attack took place. Tell us how you felt when you first heard about it. I mean, as I said in that interview that's now been seen millions of times around the world, it was an incredibly difficult place to find out that news. We were having a tour and I was in the latrines, which is a barrack where they supposedly allowed women to go to the toilet in there. But it was a horrendous place of torture and horror. And my phone pings and I see the news that two Jews have been stabbed in gold is green. And, you know, it's like you feel a sense of shock.

19:03But at the same time, as many people in the Jewish community will relate to, you're not surprised. and then to have to check in on my family as I said in that interview you know check to see is everyone okay and I'll use I'll use the words that are difficult for some people because I think it's important the world knows but I together with other people in my community receive pictures and videos of what took place and I have to zoom in I'm in Auschwitz doing this at the pictures and the videos of people lying on the floor and I try to identify through the clothes through the legs is that someone in my family you know as i pensively wait for people to check in and reply on a family whatsapp group that's what happens and then to take 40 students and have to sit them down i mean we had no other place to sit them down other outside that barracks and it was it was in front of the gas chambers there we had to sit them down and explain to them that almost like this has happened again because of where we were the connection is so clear and to explain to them anti-Semitism is happening again and you need to check in on your parents it's a really difficult and painful thing to do.

20:11What was the reaction of the young people that you were with? You know teenagers are resilient and they often you know but it wasn't surprise there isn't surprise I mean how many firebomb attacks need to happen How many hate marches need to take place that fester a narrative that then is allowed to play out on social media that then will radicalise some people to take action? Like, where's the surprise? If you chant Globalise the Intifada and that is then allowed to carry into online narratives and discord groups and whatever it is that radicalises people, there's no surprise there. Explain to me, if you can, what it's like on a daily basis to be self-conscious of being Jewish in Britain.

20:56I ask this question because I'm speaking from complete ignorance. As far as I'm concerned, you're British. I didn't think we had sectarianism here. Northern Ireland, bits of Scotland, okay, I'm not naive, but I just regard you as part of the family. And it never occurred to me that you might feel under threat. How does it actually feel to be Jewish in Britain in 2026? Well, I appreciate you considering myself and my community part of the family because that's really how we feel and how I felt my whole life. You know, I am a proud British Jew. My grandfather, Simon Critz, fought in the British Army in World War II.

21:36You know, I still have my own son is named after him. And we have his letters from the trenches. And it's quite funny. He would laugh some, you know, from on high. He would laugh at where I am today because his letters used to say to his family back home, please go to the media, go to the newspapers and tell us the conditions in the trenches. so we are a proud British family at the same time my great uncle so they married sisters my grandfather's in in the British army in the war and my great uncle was a survivor of Buchenwald concentration camp but we were brought up as proud British Jews and in the synagogue we pray for the royal family and for Great Britain on the Sabbath at a very holy time in the prayer service and we continue to do that in synagogues up and down the land so I really feel you know and I I think I speak, you know, who am I?

22:23But I think I speak on behalf of the whole community that we're proud to be part of the fabric of British life. And as I've said before, anti-Semitism is not a Jewish problem. It's a societal problem. And this is not a sad moment for Jews. This is a sad moment for Britain. I agree with that. I mean, I think you and I were discussing it earlier in the week and it feels to us as Gentiles, as Catholics, that a red line has been crossed. Now, it might not have just been crossed last week. What I'm trying to figure out, mindful of your viral video, mindful as well of the comments that Boy George made in Ireland when he asked an audience, well, how many people here know Jews?

23:07Just to contextualise my position in all this, I'm brought up in Hertfordshire. I go to school in the 80s and 90s with a lot of Jewish girls that end up at my school in St. Albans. I don't know why we had such a high Jewish population but we did therefore I grew up with Jewish girls I went to their houses on a Friday night I had suppers with them I went to their bat mitzvahs my father then ended up marrying a Jewish woman whose mother had been a survivor of Auschwitz ended up covering the 75th anniversary of the liberation went out to Poland like you saw where my grandmother had been held captive it's been a part of the fabric of my life.

23:50But then I do think that perhaps there is a divide, as Boy George maybe crudely put it, between people who know Jews in this country and people that don't. And I'm merely trying to articulate that because I can't quite understand fully how we've got to this point where anti-Semitism has been so casualised among the young. I'm concerned about that among younger people and how we've got to this point. And Tim and I were discussing it on the train earlier. Is there a problem here that some of the education around Jewish history and Jewish heritage is rightly concerned with the Holocaust, but not quite bringing young people up to date with the Jewish experience in the 21st century rather than the 20th?

24:41No, it's an excellent point. And I think, you know, I was on a panel with Joe Phillips last night and she made this point as well. And I didn't realize this. She said that, you know, people outside the Jewish community, we sometimes have a attitude, which is excellent. A really good attitude is we get our head down and we just get on with it. And that's what we do. And we graft with grit in society. But Joe Phillips said, you know, sometimes people don't know what you're going through. And if you don't speak up and you don't talk about it, people won't know. And I think that's changed. I think it's really changed.

25:12You know, people are now starting and especially the rabbinical figures in the community are really speaking up and saying, as you said, there's a line that's been crossed here. And in terms of the terms of the young, as I'm an educator myself, that's the bread and butter of what I do. I think, you know, I'll talk from my own experience. I read a thousand page book called The Holocaust by Martin Gilbert, an excellent book. and yet going there and seeing it in person for yourself is different and there are there are countries out there that make it mandatory to to go i wouldn't suggest we make it mandatory but i think it should be part of some sort of drive from the government where they have this sort of money to get even if it's not students but to get you know journalists like yourselves or politicians to go out there to see it and then you can contextualize what people are saying i cannot explain to you the hate that I've had on X from the posts I put on and I'm not putting on anything that's, you know, all I'm doing is highlighting anti-Semitism.

26:14So one post I put out recently that gained quite a bit of traction was when I was in the barracks in Auschwitz, I took a picture and there was a swastika that was carved into a wall there, obviously by a visitor. Now within three minutes, the Auschwitz Museum responded, where is it? And I got in touch with them and I I told them where it is so they could remove it. And that's fine and that's appreciated. The hate and the vitriol and the anti-Semitic remarks that then I woke up with in the next morning when I looked at my phone, I was shocked. I didn't know, and maybe they're not in Britain, some of the pictures and the flags they have.

26:49I was absolutely shocked by the type of anti-Semitic abuse that was going on. And I think, unfortunately, the reality is a lot of our youth spend their time online. No matter if you split up their time between teacher, parent and online, online will win. And when they're spending their time online, it's the algorithms that will push things towards them. And I do think social media companies need to wake up or the government needs to step in and take serious responsibility there. What do you expect of a young person with a young mind that's very malleable, that is spending, you know, Some of them spend six hours on TikTok, they tell me, in a row after they get back from school.

27:29So if you work out their contact time between all their different influences, and the pun's a good one, their influence is social media. And we allow, it's almost like we've incubated radicalization, I think is the correct word. We've enabled the conditions for this to happen. And so in terms of education, one thing is to go out to Poland, But think about the contact time with a history teacher, with a book they might read, with going out to Poland and then social media. And if we don't get to the bottom of that issue, then the algorithms are going to radicalise people in our society. Might I suggest that one of the complicated things about anti-Semitism is it takes so many different forms.

28:11And one way of understanding it, of course, is Jarswitz. but there have been societies which have been expressly anti-fascist and have been anti-Semitic like the East European communist regimes were very anti-Semitic. And in this country, many of the people who are now pushing anti-Semitic memes and ideas, if you ask them, would laugh if you suggest that they were part of the same sort of historical continuum as Adolf Hitler. Many of them are coming from the left. How do we explain this to people? this is not just about watch out for Hitler. This is about watch out for something even bigger than that, which just always seems to appear, whatever the political context might be.

28:55It's a complicated topic because, as you're right, anti-Semitism is nothing new. It's been going for thousands of years. You can go back to things at the Spanish Inquisition, and there's other elements of anti-Semitism that has existed over the years. And as Keir Starmer said in his statement radicalization can come from really any part of society um i don't have i'm gonna be honest with you i don't have a great answer to explain anti-semitism and i'm not sure there's a logical and rational way to explain it these are are tropes and you know caricatures that have followed around the jewish people for thousands of years but i think there's a huge difference now and i mentioned this in another interview i did you know i my interview that went viral i i I related it to 1930s.

29:44And I said, if you would have gone down the streets of Krakow and some of the places I visited, it would have been bustling with Jews. And now there's nobody there. And Kami Badenoch said in her, I think it was a viral, when she responded to the heckler, when she spoke about it being similar to the 1930s. But there is a difference. There's a difference. In the 1930s, the only information they had was when somebody managed to escape the cattle cars, escaped the camps on the odd rare occasion. They would go back to the village. They would tell the rabbi or they would tell the community, this is what's going on.

30:17And it was rumors. That's what people felt. Maybe it is true. Maybe it isn't true. There were discussions. There was no platform to talk about what's going on. That's different now. We can open up and talk. So yes, there's similarities there, but the big difference is, and Jews need to stand up. And it's not, again, it's not a Jewish problem. British people need to stand up. We collectively, as you said, a family, our family, we're brothers and sisters. We need to stand up and use the platforms we have and share to the world what is going on. If it isn't a Jewish problem, and I don't say this to be unnecessarily inflammatory or divisive, but I think we've had a problem with politicians refusing to accept the element in all this played by Islamic extremism.

31:06You know, I think that at the moment we can quite cogently say that some Muslims in this country have a problem with Jews. And from the perspective of a religious leader, how do you deal with that? Because does some of this come down to we can talk about education and we can talk about the role journalists play and we can talk about campaigning. but is this also about opening up some kind of religious dialogue and trying to find out for instance why according to jail partners 64 % of Muslims aged 18 to 24 for instance don't think that Israel has a right to exist like I don't even know how to begin to tackle that in the UK today yeah I think dialogue is important I mean I was actually before my interview yesterday I did with GB News, I went to get a haircut.

31:58And my barber is Muslim. And he's a good friend of mine, a close friend of mine. And he comes to my family weddings as an example. We're very close. And I wanted to be very clear. And I have this discussion with him. We have frank discussions. There's dialogue and there's family to be built between every religion and none. we have to be able to live in a democratic society where we can achieve that now in terms of radicalization you know it's actually i was looking at the cst statistics on this is that there are radicalization from all areas far left far right there's islamist radicalization as well and so we do need to look at ways of you know how do we respond to that how do we manage that but you cannot imagine the want out there from the regular people on the street to just get along and live together peaceful lives and just have respect and dignity and space for each other.

32:56But are you therefore saying that this is a minority problem? Because when we talk about crossing of red lines, it feels like it's become more generalised than that, and that's the issue, that, yeah, perhaps people aren't necessarily radicalised in an Islamic sense, but there's been a degree of pro-Palestinian radicalisation that we've witnessed at the so-called peace marches, which has then turned into something really quite ugly and unpleasant. And it's kind of masquerading as being all about protecting the oppressed, but actually resulted in throwing around the old casual racist tropes about Jews that we've been witnessing for centuries.

33:38So there's nothing remotely progressive about it, is it really? It's quite medievalist. No, exactly. And I think far left, as you've highlighted, far left radicalization is something that needs to be on the government's, you know, watch list. And I think Keir Starmer said that in his statement, as did Kemi Bader-Kaedonk in hers after the attacks that happened. You know, it's unfortunate is that it is a minority. A minority of people are radicalized, but a minority can have a big impact. It takes one person to be radicalized to do an attack. So, you know, we need to be sometimes in facts and figures and data is somewhat interpretive.

34:16It's not okay to say, right, it's a minority and therefore it's not a big problem. Therefore, that doesn't link. Okay, it's a minority. It's a big problem. I'd say I think also sometimes the right tells itself a story that this is a left-wing, solely a left-wing thing. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, but I just don't think that's true. I have encountered right-wing Christians who've just said to me, I hate Jews. Honestly, look at my Twitter feed. No, I agree. We've seen that in Ireland. There's historically been, bizarrely, despite my parents' very happy marriage, a problem between Catholics and Jews.

34:51There's a problem between Muslims and Jews. There's a problem between secular leftists and Jews. But the common theme in all of this is the persecution and abuse towards Jews. Yes, and it's as if that society is waiting for an excuse. Yes. Because what then erupts is stuff which is really old-fashioned, even ancient, and often has nothing to do with the catalyst. So if the catalyst to all this, which is really the Zak Bolansky argument, is the war in Gaza, then why is it? Because one can be critical of Israel, as I am. And why is it that one begins with that and then ends up at Jews run the world?

35:35It's an excellent question. I'm glad you brought this up. You know, I've seen Jewish people on media platforms over the last three or four days since the attack happened. And the same line of questioning, and I'm not saying you've done this because you brought it up in a very respectful way. But the same line of questioning I keep seeing is, you know, what about Israel? What about Israel? I find that line of questioning personally offensive. I find that that leads into some sort of notion that there's a justification for spilling the blood of innocent Jews on the streets of Great Britain. There is no justification for anti-Semitism.

36:14Can we have an open conversation about Israel? For sure. I'll give you an example. When the attack happened on ambulances, a lot of people said, why do Jews have their own ambulances? And that question is coming from ignorance. It can be easily answered. The ambulance service is available to all. Correct. Yeah. But my point is, if your beginning point is, I don't like what's happening in Gaza, I just find it so strange how we go from a legitimate criticism Israeli policy to why do Jews have their own ambulances? Correct. And does that happen? I always ask this question, you know, Kimi Bader mentioned security at primary schools.

36:52When I grew up as a child, I can remember significantly going to play football against a non-Jewish school. And we went there through the gates in our coach. I said, where's the security? I had no idea that we were different. I had no idea. We have security at every single institution. And I bring that up because I always ask myself the question when looking at these type of things. Which other community faces this? which other community after their blood is spilled on the streets of Great Britain are put to a line of questioning about a possible justification because of what's going on in Israel.

37:33And on top of that, and I don't want to be out of place saying this, but on top of that, we know there are other atrocities and I'm not saying Israel is an atrocity, I'm not making that analogy. But what I'm saying is that there are, you know, see Russian people getting stabbed on the streets of Great Britain because of the war in Ukraine. Yeah. No. You don't see it. No. So I'm not sure why it's, well, I have my own ideas as to why, when it comes to the Jewish people, it's different. Yes. Yeah. To conclude, how are you feeling about being in the UK? You've got children. You're part of a close-knit community that at the moment is feeling, let's be honest, terrorised.

38:15We are hearing stories, and I think indeed the campaign against anti-Semitism has suggested that the number of Jews preparing to leave the country or have already left is at a record 40 year high. I mean, do you feel safe in Britain at the moment? I can't. The Cypher maybe says it all. It's a difficult one. You know, for the first time in my life ever, I've had conversations. One of the messages I sent right after the attack happened to my wife whilst I was in Auschwitz. There's a direct message to her was, do we go now? And this is the first time ever as someone that is proudly British and part of British society.

39:00You know, is this the first time ever that we think we need to start looking ahead? What does it look like for Jews in 10 years time? you know as i said in that interview because this is unfortunately what i saw and it's a powerful imagery to have this is what i saw when i was when i was going around poland is that you walk through streets where there was bustling jewish community and there's like the indent and a scratch of a mug in david on the wall and we can say there was once a jew here and are we going to my grandchildren going to walk through the streets of london on a tour by a guide and they'll see you know the front of a shul naga there was once a jew here that breaks my heart to even contemplate such a thing so look i think we are a resilient people it's almost in our in our dna to bounce back and to push on and to move forward and i think we need to stand up now as proud british jews and we need to be hopeful about a brighter future there are things that appear to be changing you You know, Keir Starmer has now moved away from slogans and said we need action.

40:06Because if I have a minute to talk about, you know, after the Holocaust, there was a slogan. There were two words. Never again. October 7th. Never again. Bondi Beach. Never again. Heaton Park. Never again. Never again means nothing. We need concrete action. And nothing, as I said in an article I wrote this week, nothing's irreversible. We're not at the end. right we're in a sense now it seems like the british people are waking up we're at the beginning yes and we need to stand strong together and build a brighter future for jews in great britain rabbi thank you very much absolute pleasure and i really do appreciate you giving me a voice and for our community as well we'll be back tomorrow 5 p.m

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