‘Britain is on the brink’: Jenrick defects to Reform in day of Westminster chaos

0:02The Telegraph

0:10Robert Jenrick has defected to reform claiming that the Conservatives have broken Britain After a mad day, we explain how and why Robert Jenrick jumped ship Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini And me, Tim Stanley

0:34Tim we've just come out of a very hot reform press conference which was planned to be about the local elections momentum was building in the room every journalist in the lobby was in there packed in there it was a full house and then we had this well slightly delayed unveiling of Robert Jenrick. And on that note I will welcome Robert Jenrick into this room and into Reform UK.

1:03He hasn't changed his mind, has he? We can't find him! Is he coming, Nick?

1:15It's been a funny... This would be a very funny end of the day, wouldn't it? The whole thing had an improvised feel because it was improvised. Kemi Badenok sacked Rob Jenrick apparently on the understanding that he was planning to join reform at this press conference. And that what had been advertised as a local elections press conference was actually about unveiling this shock defection. Nigel came out and explained he had no intention of introducing Rob Jenrick at 4.30. Jenrick had no plan of joining reform, as Nigel put it, today or tomorrow or the week after or possibly even ever. In other words, Kemi Baden-Ock sacking Rob Jenrick actually caused Rob Jenrick to join reform.

2:04And so, after that little preamble, Nigel Farage then said, and please welcome Rob Jenrick, who then didn't appear. Not that second, not the next minute. Maybe he never would. But eventually he did show up. And when he did, well, it just turned Westminster upside down. Let's have a listen to what Mr Jenrick had to say and the reasons behind his choice to leave the Conservatives, which he pointed out he'd been a lifelong member of. Because the two main parties are rotten. They are no longer fit for purpose. They both broke Britain. And neither can fix it. It's a conclusion about the Conservative Party that has pained me to reach.

2:50Because I've been a member of this party since I was 16 years old. I've served it for most of my adult life. I have countless good friends in the party. Not least my own members in Newark. They are the most decent, patriotic people I know. and I respect, I cherish the party's contribution to our country, the party of Pitt and Peel, of Churchill and Thatcher. But our country is in a precarious, dangerous position. And my first loyalty, our first loyalty, must be to our country. Turning it around will require each and every one of us to speak the truth. and not just to speak it, but to act. What's the truth?

3:45Both Labour and the Conservatives broke Britain, and both are now dominated by those without the competence or the backbone needed to fix it. Both parties, if judged by their own actions, are committed to a set of ideas that have failed and are failing Britain. Camilla, we planned today to do a very different podcast, but our plans had to be torn up when Kemi recorded and released this video. This morning, I removed the Conservative whip from Robert Jenrick after dismissing him from the Shadow Cabinet. I was very sorry to be presented with clear, irrefutable evidence, not just that he was preparing to defect, but he was planning to do so in the most damaging way possible to the Conservative Party and his Shadow Cabinet colleagues.

4:35It is my responsibility to protect our party, and faced with that information, I took the only decision that any responsible leader could. Because the British public are tired of political psychodrama. So am I. Robert Jenrick there has basically torn the Conservatives to shreds. He has taken aim at all of his former shadow cabinet colleagues, he's had a go at Priti Patel, He's told an anecdote about how lots of cabinet members didn't want to stop the boats, that they were disingenuous about immigration, that they were disingenuous in general about trying to fix Britain's problems. He's basically made the argument there that for the good of the country, I had no choice.

5:20The only person that's going to be the next prime minister and fix broken Britain is Nigel Farage, therefore I've jumped. And he had this interesting story about how he'd met with colleagues in the Tory party and said is, and they had discussed, is Britain broken? And he said that he was the only one who instantly said yes. Everyone else either said, no, it's not, or it is, but we mustn't say that. Yes. He wants to focus on immigration issues. Kemi Begnot wanted to focus on the economy. And he gave the impression that he'd been thinking about this for months. Well, we'll get onto the timeline in just a minute because I asked a question about that because I'm a little confused about it.

5:55I must be honest, Tim, having heard from Jenrick himself last Friday that he was never, ever going to defect. Get on to that in just a moment. But what was interesting is how he was positioning himself in all this, basically saying, I've had to put my leadership ambitions at the Conservatives completely to one side, and I've had to take one for the team here because the only way forward is with reform. We must note that he doesn't have a chance of winning Newark, really, as a Conservative. The only way he can retain that seat is by being a reformer. and also there were some questions which I think are legitimate about his leadership ambitions now.

6:32He was very careful to say, nobody is getting into reform wanting to usurp Farage. I'm coming here because I want him to be the next Prime Minister. But there was an admission from Farage that he was being brought in for his governmental experience and there's been whispers among the Tories today, well, Farage might need to be careful what he wishes for because these are ambitious people alongside Jenrick who will all want to make their mark on reform. Let's put it like that. That's true, although this is the Nigel Farage party. He has an open shot at running at the next general election to try to become prime minister.

7:07I don't believe anyone would challenge him on that. It's Rob Jenrick who's going to lose a lot. In Parliament, he's been the one asking questions and arguing at the dispatch box rather well, I have to say. Well, now he can't do that. He's going to join the other five on the backbench. Yes, it's four to five to four to five. Yes, I think it's up to five. where they never get called even when the whole of Parliament is talking about them. Yes. So he really is stepping down from something. He's not going to hold a by-election. He's just going to cross the floor and continue as a reformer. I mean, throughout the whole day, attack lines have been coming in, people pointing out that the constituents that supported him in the last general election and Newark are feeling betrayed.

7:49As ever, there's a whole history of different tweets that Jenrick has said about reform and Farage. Farage is worse than Jack the Ripper you know there's always a there's always a catalogue of those sorts of things yeah but can I just uh speak into the question that I asked because I do remain a little confused we've had a press conference where Jenrick has said that he was first approached by Nigel Farage back in September we've written consistently that there have been overtures from either side and that there are certain power players trying to broker the defection I'd always has been given the impression that Farage considered Jenrick to be, quote, the ultimate prize.

8:26He is saying that this is a seminal moment for politics, particularly on the right, because Jenrick is going to bring a load of right-wing Tories with him. Time will tell. Also, didn't you think it was interesting, the deadline that Farage has put on defection? Yes, May 7th, local elections. Basically saying, defect before the May 7th elections. Don't bask in our glory afterwards. Yes. That's the cut-off. That's my red line. and he says that everyone's completely underestimating just how horrendous these elections are going to be for the Tories and Labour, what's going to be left of them. Also promising us a Labour defection next week.

8:59But there is a little bit of disingenuity about when this has all been planned because, as I've revealed to you in previous Daily Tees, I wrote my column last Friday saying, Jenrick's going to defect and Badenock's trying to work out what to do about it. I then received a flurry of messages, let's just say from sources very, very close to Jenrick, questioning the veracity of the story. I asked an outright question, is he going to defect? I was told no. I then replied... Never. Not just no, but never. No, I said, not now or ever, and I had one word reply, never. So I put that to Mr Jenrick at the press conference.

9:40Tim Stanley from The Daily Tea. Actually, Camilla Tominey from The Daily Tea. can you just clear up Mr Jenrick the timeline on your defection because I wrote a column about this on Friday and there was an exchange of messages with let's call it sources close to you insisting that you were never ever going to defect it's no surprise that if you phone me I don't have to tell you everything you want for your column but when well no I'd already written the column at that point but I just wanted clarity like Chris Mason at the BBC and all the other journalists here that when you said you were never, ever going to defect last Friday, that you were in fact lying, and therefore the accusation that you're untrustworthy may be true?

10:25That was my question. Well, Camilla, I'm very sorry to disabuse you, since I thought you were a very experienced journalist, but politicians don't have to reply to all the text messages so they get sent by journalists. But you did reply. And I wasn't going to give you the exclusive news of my decision. OK, so you misled me. But if you're asking me the question, about honesty. Nobody in the Conservative Party was more honest about the failures of the last Conservative government than me. What is the most honest thing to do, Camilla? To stay in a party, knowing that its principal policy on Rwanda was a failure, or to resign from its cabinet?

11:02What is the most honest thing to do for myself and the country but to say this party is going nowhere, and if you really want to turn it around, ensure that the country is fixed, then you have to rally behind Nigel and reform. I just get the impression I may have got under his skin there. I think the coming months are going to be very interesting when it comes to my interactions with Mr Jenrick. I wonder if he will ever pick up the phone again. Before he actually defected, when rumours were swirling, we recorded a discussion about who comes out of this best, Kemi or Rob Jenrick, and I think I was correct.

11:44Let's be honest, there's been speculation in the Tory party in Westminster, in newsrooms and in the country that Jenrick was about to jump ship. I mean, we've been talking about we were talking about it before the Tory conference. And then he wanted to be kind of front and centre of that event for the Conservatives. And he in turn was doing eye catching interviews about no white faces in Birmingham. He was posing with a judge's wig on and saying the judiciary had gone to pot and all the rest of it. So it didn't happen. So crucially, he's not just there being sacked, a shadow justice minister. He's also had the party membership taken away from him.

12:22Yes. That means there's really no going back. She kicked him out the door. It's just so cold, so hard, so sinister. So then in this environment, just to kind of let you know how the sausage is made a little bit, obviously the newsroom erupts. Everything's very exciting. You and I are thinking, right, we've got to completely re-pivot on this podcast. and, of course, there's a requirement for us both to write. And we have written, and you can read them on the Telegraph website, two different pieces. You're arguing that this is good for Jen Rick and I'm arguing that it's good for Badenock. Right, shall I make my case for the prosecution?

12:59Go ahead. As she is the one who has taken the action in this case. Well, let's first of all just mention the fact that I'd like a little bit of a brownie point if I could have one because I did predict this in my column. So remember at the beginning of the week, I said, do I look like an idiot because Nadim Zahawi is defected and not Robert Jenrick? You wrote a column saying, I think Rob Jenrick's about to defect. Yes. And then on Monday, a couple of days afterwards, Nadim Zahawi defected. So for a moment, it looked like you were right. There was a defection, but you got the wrong person. But actually, I think that all the time in the background, there has been a huge amount of manoeuvring both from Jenrick towards reform and reform towards Jenrick.

13:40I think that Badenok and her team have been getting increasing wind of this and basically thought, we need to strike. They must have thought this week after Zahawi, actually, which came out of nowhere. They're blindsided by Zahawi. And I think she thinks to herself, right, I'm not having this happen to me twice in one week. I'm going to cut him loose before he shafts me. The timing because, as I said, some people looked at that scheduled 4.30 appearance on a Thursday before local elections and thought maybe something else is going to happen then. The other thing I just want to say is you always know when you've written something true, when the person you've written it about contacts you immediately and says, why the bloody hell have you written this?

14:26Right. If you hadn't written something true, they wouldn't care. So you're saying Rob Jenrick contacted you? He may have messaged me, but so... Or sources close to Rob Jenwick. Well, both. I was inundated. I was in some kind of message soup on Friday afternoon where I was told in no uncertain terms that there would never, I'd like to quote that, never be a defection. And by the way, the nasty things that I had written, which to be fair, I was attributing to Jenwick's critics, that he was once nicknamed generic, that he was a bit leftwards, that he did support Remain, albeit not with that much enthusiasm, that he once signed a letter suggesting that Brexit would be a betrayal, that he once said the only place you win elections from is from the centre, was not what he really ever thought.

15:11And how dare I say it? And I thought, oh, you're actually worried about how this column reflects on the feelings within the reform camp. You don't want me writing and reminding people of his occasional flirtations with Camerooni leftism because you want him to be perceived as a fully throated righty. There must be something going on because why would you care what Faraj thinks about him if there's no defection plan? So the whole thing becomes kind of crazier by the minute. My case in support of what Badenock has done is as follows. She was stuck between a rock and a hard place is my understanding.

15:54I have managed to find out today that, mindful that he was preparing to defect, she did actually what I advised in the column, which is brought him in for a meeting, offered him a shadow cabinet promotion, I think probably shadow chancellor, poor Mel Stride, that that didn't go down very well, that he was quite critical of the whole Conservative operation. And this has been the constant criticism. He's been operating in a silo. He isn't a team player. I mean, today in my column, I've likened him to Jerry Halliwell, constantly pursuing a solo career and really annoying the scary spice that Badenock became today in that video.

16:37Right. And Camp Jenrick at the time of the leadership race, which, by the way, she won by one MP, but she got 56 percent of the 94000 votes. So she did win it pretty comprehensively. It wasn't a Brexit referendum result, 48 to 52. It was higher than that. Yes, he's popular in the party and all the rest of it. She won it fair and square, even though Mrs Jenrick famously eye-rolled at the victory. She was criticised at the time of being crazy and lazy. What she's shown with this decisive action is that actually, no. She's crazy and fast. She has stopped being unfair, laser focused and determined to escape the shadow of the Tory psychodrama of yesteryear.

17:30She knows the party has a reputation for fighting like rats in a sack. She doesn't want to take that into the locals or indeed the next general election. And I think she's also thought, if I've offered to promote him and he's rejected it, then he is on a precipice. There's nothing more I can do for him. I've tried to do the thing of bringing your friends close and your enemies closer. He's always going to want my job. He's always going to harbour leadership ambitions. He's always going to try and undermine me. Therefore, and just to quote a source, she decided to cut him loose before he, quotes, stabbed her in the face.

18:06Wow. Wow. OK. Isn't it a sign of strength to just say, do you know what, Jenrick? I've had enough of this. I've had enough of you freelancing as a wannabe bin man in Birmingham on your own social media. Support me. We're either a double act. This is Kemi talking or you. Maybe me channeling my inner Kemi as I'm getting into this scary spice roll. But it's literally, well, it's two things, isn't it? And sorry to slightly swear, but it's either support me or don't. And if you don't, you're out. And also, by the way, we're all bored of this speculation. Shit or get off the pot. Wow. And I can imagine her using those very words.

18:46Thing is, though, she's obviously not in a strong position if she's so desperate to keep him that she was willing to sack her shadow chancellor and offer that job to Rob. Allegedly. Allegedly. If that is true, then she went into this thing and begged him to stay. Right? That doesn't sound like strength to me. She's always said that the shadow cabinet she has now is not the one that's going to fight the next general election. Interesting. Well, Mel Stride will take note of that, I'm sure. OK, let me make the case for Rob. First of all, the whole point of politics is to try and keep your own party together and to persuade people around to your point of view.

19:24West Streeting, we all know, is, to quote sources, is planning a leadership race. Not plotting. He is planning one. And we've known this for weeks. Keir Starmer doesn't sack him. because everyone in parliament is planning a leadership election or considering switching to reform. There are many Tory MPs considering doing that. The art of politics is not driving people out. It's persuading people to stay. And some people might decide that she's failed to do that. Secondly, by taking this route, she has sent a message to any other Tory who considers themselves adjacent to reform or has been publicly talking of a coalition or working with them, people like Jacob Rees-Mogg, that they have no future under her leadership.

20:06I disagree with that. Let me finish. Let me come in on that point, Your Honour. Objection. She knows that Jacob is a conservative through and through. She may use him to smooth the way to a post-electoral pact. There are some Tories that just aren't going to leave. But if you have got something really mouldy in your fridge, why do you let it contaminate the rest of the contents? And second of all, just as she has said to the righties, you be careful, you're loyal. It's also a shot across the bows to the closet Lib Dems in that party. She's turning around and saying, if you do not support me and my policies, including Caroline Noakes and Andrew Mitchell, you little lefties.

20:54Have any of them been expelled from the party? She'll expel them before the next general election if they do not support her manifesto. Okay. But she hasn't yet. I mean, the metaphors are going here from stabbing in the face to bacteriological warfare. And I guess the party will be united if there's just Kemi left in it because she's the only one she can trust. I mean, OK, I'm willing to believe that everything that has been rumoured about Rob Jennerick is true. That he had dinner with Nigel Farage. Smaller dinner because he was on the jabs. It wouldn't be much of a dinner. Nigel would have done most of the eating and the drinking.

21:25And the talking. And the talking. And I can also believe that a resignation letter was left around either by accident or on purpose in order to force this kind of confrontation. Who knows? I'm willing to believe that Jenrick has been considering defection and planning it for some time. It's certainly true that he fancies Kemi's job. But look at it from his point of view, right? He lost the leadership election, but he won 44 % of the vote. He was then given a really crappy junior role. of shadow justice shadow justice he was a lawyer once he ran in the election and he got 44 of the vote he should have had shadow home or shadow chancellor it was an odd job to give him despite that he unquestionably shone in it and in fact his videos of him challenging fair dodgers or climbing mount snowden in a pair of shorts it made him into a social media star right yes Plus, the party, if it has stabilised its position in the polls Has arguably done so because it has adopted his position on immigration So there's a case for saying Rob has been working very hard And through the party moving towards him That is the reason why it has stabilised Have they moved towards him or moved towards Farage?

22:41Because just on the immigration point This is the counter-argument to that Your Honour, objection They have had rouse, Badenock and Jenrick, because Badenock thinks that the Conservatives' key strength is to hammer home economic competence. Correct. And that they shouldn't mention immigration as much. And by the way, can you, Robert Jenrick, stop banging on about immigration because you were immigration minister? and she was apparently angry with him that he kept on banging on about the case of Fatah, the Egyptian activist turned anti-Semite who is a self-confessed racist and was welcomed back to the UK by Keir Starmer because they were the ones who gave him citizenship in 2021.

23:26Right, but he would say, sources say, that that was Priti Patel's fault. And James Cleverley's. The issue is that, think about, again, go back to those top jobs right now, Priti Patel, who was caught on camera openly defending the last Tory government's immigration record, and Mel Stride, who everyone thinks is a bit of a wet. Why have those two got the two big jobs? Oh, and Chris Philp. Who is Chris Philp? That is unfair on little pocket-sized Philp. Oh, bless him. Who loves a broadcast round. He loves this podcast. He does. He's a lovely man. But nonetheless, I stand by the point. The guy came second in the leadership election.

24:00He got a very good vote. He is a social media star and you're not using him properly. But that could be because he keeps on slagging off everyone else in the camp, by the way. Right. Oh, it's Pretty's fault. Oh, it's Cleverley's fault. Oh, it's Suella's fault. It's not my fault. Well, you were immigration minister. Oh, I resigned. Oh, did you? Some people think Boris Johnson sacked you. He did resign. So that shows principle. And OK, he has changed his position on politics. It's the principles of Groucho Marx. The Reform Party has just... Here are my principles. And if you don't like them, I have others.

24:30Where I was once left, I'm now right. Well, the Reform Party has just welcomed Nadim I Love Immigration Zahawi into its rank. So it proves that even leopards can change their spots. Right. So let's think about a generic position within the party right now. You're absolutely right. That conference was probably the opportunity to bring down Kemi by challenging her. And he didn't. And one criticism that people have of him is he's a little indecisive. And he preferred instead to bask in the glory of having a whole day of the conference dedicated towards him. Kemi then came out with her abolish stamp duty policy and, ooh, suddenly Kemi looks like she's in the job, past the local elections up to the general election.

25:09Which means that Rob Jenrick, yes, an ambitious man, is going to be stuck playing fourth or fifth fiddle to Kemi Badenock as the party continues its decline and is almost wiped out by reform at the next election. Better to play fifth fiddle to Farage then. Right. But even, well, maybe second. I think it's a little bit better. Are you joking? And if Kemi... Someone tell Richard Tice. If Kemi loses, which she will, the next general election, then there's an internal battle to replace her. If Rob Jennerick manages to persuade the weird rump of Lib Dems still running the Tory party at that point that he should be the leader, he'll inherit a dead party.

25:44So why does he want to do that? So, OK, so let's assume he was thinking about resignation or defection or whatever. How does he actually do it? Because, of course, if he does walk away, people are going to call him a traitor. Yes. And people just don't like traitors. So what's happened instead is Kemi has sacked him. And by sacking him... Are you saying that that resignation letter that was left on the photocopier or... Was done on purpose to force her hand? Maybe, maybe. Because then he can say, it's not my fault. I was loyal to the Tories. She fired me. Maybe he's playing 3D chess. Maybe some moron in the office just left it on the photocopier.

26:20I don't know. But by getting rid of him, she takes the sting out of the accusation of treason. And what he can now say is, I didn't walk away from this party. I'm a team player that crazy lady that crazy cat lady recorded a video in which she has the background blurred like she's in a premiere inn look dog man there's nothing wrong with cat lady that crazy cat lady kicked me out of the party and what he will now say I want another objection let me just finish this what he will now say to perhaps a couple of dozen of sitting Tory MPs is this could happen to you yes so why don't you join me in reform Come with me and I'll give you back your country.

27:00He could say to the righties, and I do appreciate the point you're making, she's actually lost the person who was throwing around all the red meat for her. He was attracting all the criticism of the Tories being nasty and racist and this, that and the other, and she was able to kind of stand a little bit back from it and say, well, just let Jenrick do all this. She's left with Chris Philp and Marc Francois. But, objection, Your Honour, on the taking the sting. Yes, in a way, he can now claim to be the victim, but she's taken the sting out of his defection because it now looks forced. She has devolved him of any great responsibility for it or for Raj.

27:38It would have been a lot better for Jenrick to have been unveiled like Zahawi. We've plucked this guy out of the Tories because he's such a talent. And now people who don't watch these events as closely as you and I do, like little Westminster geeks, will look at it and go, oh yeah, he was thrown out and now he's in reform. God, what a party that is for washed up Tories. He had nowhere else to go. A little bit like me on the right, he was politically homeless. Therefore, it doesn't quite look as potent if he is, and we better get to Milbank Tower, if he is in an hour's time unveiled. Do you think they put a sheet over him and Zia Yusuf whips it off while Nigel, dressed in, Andrea Jenkins' sequence goes ta-da.

28:23Yes. Wow. What an image. Shall we go there now? Let's go there now. I just want to finish at this point. I am willing to accept that I'm being way too Westminster insider on all of this. And I think if I take a step back, it does just look like badass Kemi sacked a troublemaker. And I think that's how much of the public will interpret it. And by the way, can I concede, as we've now kind of reverse ferreted on our views, that although I'm making the case for Kemi, I do also like Rob Jenrick, think he's a good politician and he may still... Never burn a bridge. Well, he... Never burn a bridge in journalism.

28:59The thing is, it's hard because, you know, he's quite good fun, really, and he likes a bit of a gossip. And who knows? He's now going to set his sights, by the way, on the leadership of reform if he is about to defect and we're going to run there now. And that could pose problems not just for Farage but for Richard Tice, Zia Yusuf, Nadim Zahawi. They all want to be Chancellor. Apparently, Jenrick also wants to be chancellor under a reformed government. And by the way, as you and I know, he's got a very powerful team of advisors around him, Jenrick, who are as ambitious as he is. Yes. And so they will set their sights on reform and how things are run, making the point, well, we've been in government.

29:35We know what we're doing. So Faraj might want to be careful what he wishes for here. On the one hand, it reinforces the Tory 2.0 narrative. On the other hand, the whole point of unveiling these Tories is to say to the country, I actually do have people in my pocket who can run things. And I think Rob Jennerick is a plus for reform in that regard. Right. Whatever happens in the next hour, we shall update this podcast. So you'll be hearing the end of this podcast, but the beginning will be different because we'll have gone to reform. I can't even work it out. But the point is, importantly, as ever, the Daily Tea will be here to cover it every step of the way.

30:09And we will be back tomorrow, 5pm. Thank you.