Cabinet revolt erupts as Starmer refuses to budge

0:03Camilla: The Telegraph.

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1:14Is he mad? The Prime Minister refuses to go, but now he's been hit by his most high-profile resignation yet, Jess Phillips.

1:22Camilla: Meanwhile, Andy Burnham's down in London, stirring things up in Westminster. and where streeting has a face like thunder. We speak to former Starmer ally Carl Turner, who delivers a scathing assessment of his premiership. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tomini.

1:49Camilla: Tim, finally a resignation that we've heard of. Jess Phillips, the safeguarding minister, has just handed a letter to the prime minister saying, I'm sorry, mate, I do quite like you, but you're just not good enough anymore. Indeed. On Twitter slash X, I said yesterday evening, we'll know that he's finished when someone resigns who I've heard of. Well, we've now crossed that critical threshold. Jess Phillips is a Labour MP who I've actually heard of. And so it is very significant because of her high profile, because of her job as safeguarding minister and because she is regarded as close to Wes Streeting, who is right now the front-runner among candidates who are actually in Parliament.

2:33Camilla: Yes. It should be noted that Andy Burnham is in London. Yes. Houston, we have a problem. He's landed at the train station. Yes. He's having some conversations with MPs later, presumably to persuade one of them to step aside for him to return from the north. Or indeed, perhaps, to try to persuade Wes Streeting to hold off from his leadership challenge in order to give him a longer timetable so that Andy can get into Parliament. We'll get into this morning's Cabinet meeting in just a minute, but let me just quote from Phillips's letter to Keir Starmer. Quotes, I think you're a good man fundamentally who cares about the right things.

3:07Camilla: However, I have seen firsthand how that is not enough. The desire not to have an argument means we rarely make an argument, leaving opportunities for progress stalled and delayed. Labour governments come around rarely is the constant refrain at the moment. It's true they are precious. Every Labour government in my and my family's lifetime has forged progress that changed our country and the world for the better. I know you care deeply but deeds not words are what matter. I'm not sure we are grasping this rare opportunity with the gusto that's needed and I cannot keep waiting around for a crisis to push for faster progress.

3:44That's such a Labour resignation letter, isn't it? I think she might be overregging the Labour pudding. I'm a great person. Our party is great. Our country is great. When Tories resign, they just say, I hate you. Yes. And I'm done.

3:55Camilla: I'm done. I'm going to go and work for Pfizer. Quite rightly. Or for Meta or someone similar. But she is a Birmingham MP. And you've got to understand that Labour MPs following their local elections have gone back to their constituencies. They've spoken to local activists. And those people have said to them, we have just been wiped out. and we are probably going to get wiped out in a general election by the Greens and by reform. And of course, Jez Phillips and West Streeting are two MPs who both have a very serious challenge against them by Gaza independence. Yeah, they could lose their seats next time around.

4:28The list of MPs who have expressed their displeasure with Keir Starmer has grown and has been added to by PPSs. Those are very junior members of the front bench, but they are on the payroll and crucially, they work for big players. So the PPS for West Streeting, PPS for Ed Miliband, etc. Now, the list of names has crossed the critical threshold of 81. But that's the threshold that is necessary for someone who wishes to challenge the prime minister to run against him. You have to have 81 people committed to you personally. This is 81 plus people who have just said, we don't like Keir Starmer. And that's why this situation is complicated.

5:07because if you break down that list of names, they're from all over the party. You've got hard left people in here. You've got Kim Johnson from Liverpool. Rachel Maskell from York. But you've also got more sort of centrist people. You've got people like Clive Betts, for example. Chris Curtis. Chris Curtis, former pollster, 32. Amusingly, someone described him as a veteran person of stature. He's 32 years old.

5:31Camilla: Yes, and we interviewed him last year. He's very nice, but come on, he's a kid. And of course, the baby of the House, Sam Carling, who was only, I think, about 24 when he was listed as, I think, number 64. I tweeted that's nearly three times his age. My point is, this is not a coherent leadership campaign. No, and it's not like the Tories. The Tories just need to get numbers to challenge the leader in a no confidence. And it doesn't matter who they support. They just want the prime minister out. This is different because they have to be supporting an alternative. Right. Angela Rayner doesn't seem to want to run, which we all find very strange.

6:08Camilla: It could be because she's waiting for the tax probe to end, hopefully in her favour. It could be. It could be that worse things are to come out. Who knows? Yes, there has been that suggestion. It could be that she's the victim of misogyny, Camilla. It could be. She could be like Zach Polanski, the victim of smears. She's internalised misogyny. Also known as facts. She's internalised misogyny and convinced herself that she doesn't have the votes, which means that right now the only serious leadership contender is Wes Streeting. And it's possible that if his name were put forward, this list of 81 plus might shrink.

6:40Now, it would be added to by people in the PLP who are for Wes and haven't yet come out for Wes. But some of these people, they don't want Wes to be prime minister.

6:50Camilla: I mean, ironically, we discussed this yesterday. Catherine West, who's the stalking horse stroke donkey that precipitated the need for a challenge, is an ardent lefty, a Corbynista, and wouldn't want streeting. And she's been criticised because she's got out of the traps too early and Burnham can't get down in time. He can't chicken run in time. So she's been castigated by the left stroke soft left for engendering the situation where it could lead to a streeting coronation. Yes. A number of readers, by the way, have been messaging me and saying, you realise how unpopular labour is in the areas that Burnham would run?

7:25So it's not even a guarantee this man can get into Parliament.

7:28Camilla: Well, I've heard that the person who may stand aside is the MP for St Helens, Mary Rimmer. She is reportedly poised to give up her seat. Now, that's in East Cheshire. That's near where Burnham grew up. So he's got some local links there. And she's on a 19 ,000 majority. I appreciate after Thursday, no seat is a safe Labour seat. And let's be honest, both the Greens and reform would throw the kitchen sink at it. They would do. But you see, if Burnham were to run as an anti-Starma candidate, if people understood that by voting for him, they're getting rid of Starmer, he might win that by-election.

8:08But if he were to run as that candidate, why would the governing NEC of the Labour Party let him run? Because they blocked him from running before. In other words, and this may surprise people, Keir Starmer has a little more power in his hands than they might appreciate.

8:26Camilla: Yes. Because there isn't someone ready right now to push him. We are at this stage waiting for him to acknowledge that he needs to go. And so long as he refuses to do that, he can drag this process out. The other thing about Burnham is he appears to be moving the pieces around the Labour chessboard. So he's clearly got Rainer on side. I was hearing this morning as I went about my investigations that he has been phoning around the cabinet and offering jobs. Yeah. Ed Miliband as chancellor, heaven forbid, but that might please some people minded to vote Green. That might be the kind of left wing offering that the lefties want.

9:10Camilla: So Burnham's basically anyone that uses the term orderly transition. Yes. Is a Burnhamite. because what they're saying is we need to stretch the leadership window. Let's turn this into a three-month thing to give him time to get his ducks in a row. May I also suggest that all of this briefing about streeting has the numbers, he's got the numbers, he's got the numbers. Well, clearly he hasn't because if he had the numbers, he'd be running already, wouldn't he? Unless he wants to avoid the impression that he is responsible for bringing down a Labour prime minister and injecting the kind of chaos into the ranks that Labour was always complaining about under the Tories.

9:50I caught Stephen Kinnock on BBC Newsnight on Monday night and the number of times he referred to Tory chaos was absurd. It doesn't cut through anymore because now we've got chaos. And all those people who said, don't you like it, the quiet?

10:06Camilla: Yes, the adults are back in charge. Well, the adults have come back into the room and they're now tearing lumps out of each other. Yes, that's right. And also there's a lot of heavy briefing against Streeting. What was he described as this morning? A snake? He wouldn't outdo a lettuce. Basically, they're trying to paint. They're trying to paint Wes Streeting as Maggie. You're not as big as a fan, are you? They're trying to, yeah, self-interested lizard. And therefore, there's this, I think Streeting does care about his reputation, both within the party and in the country. and he won't want to be depicted as being one of the nasties in all this.

10:46Camilla: Although I do say to the Labour Party, they're such a bunch of wetties, aren't they? The Conservatives wouldn't behave like this. They'd quite absolutely readily stab a prime minister in the back and if they had the reputation of being an arse, they would embrace it. Well, the Tories are ruthless, but I think in the last government they came across as stupid because they did it too often. And there's a case for saying that Boris's fall from power was like a moment in the Garden of Eden. It was as if something had happened in politics, some great crime had taken place in politics. And from then on, everything is a repetition of that.

11:24Because MPs discovered that if they don't like a prime minister, they can just kick them out.

11:30Camilla: Yes. But don't you feel like a massive sense of deja vu right now? Oh, horribly. You and I are on tenterhooks. Should we record this podcast now? Should we wait for later? Every hour something happens. When's he going to go? I mean, honestly, and you were outside Downing Street. You were in the melee today. This is like having a friend who's on their sixth marriage. Yes. And they say to you, and you know what, this time I'm truly happy. This one's going to work. And you were like... I'll give it a year. Yeah, I can't come to the wedding because I'm away that weekend. And I'm really sorry. I'm not going to buy you a present because, you know, I've already bought five.

12:02Camilla: What was it like outside number 10 today? Did you see Larry the Cat? Well, I returned to Downing Street this morning like a fair weather stalker. Yes. And I have to say that this had a very different vibe to leadership challenges under the Tories. For a start, there was only about a third of the press that are normally there in Downing Street. Normally, they build these huge platforms for all the cameras to stand on. They didn't have to do that. Normally it's intensely policed, but I was actually able to wander about much more freely than I can do. And there was no international press from what I could see.

12:38Camilla: Yeah, no one cares. It had the feeling of the collapse of a parish council. Right. Not a major economy with nuclear weapons. What were we waiting for? Of course, there wasn't much to see. We weren't expecting a lectern moment for the Prime Minister to come out and announce he's going. but we thought we might be able to see people come in and go out and that might give us something to comment on, a bit of a sense of what's happening here. So what did happen is they all went in and they came out in drips and drabs and some Starmer loyalists came over and spoke to the cameras and said no one in the cabinet challenged him.

13:18Camilla: This was the Business Secretary Peter Kyle. What was cabinet and what did everyone say when Keir Starmer said a leadership race had not been triggered? Well, it's the fact. We've had a very purposeful cabinet meeting talking about the big issues facing our economy and society. Nothing has been triggered. I'm about to go off to Brussels to continue working with Brussels to deepen the relationship, to benefit Britain. We are working hard on the big issues that are facing the country and KIA is showing really steadfast leadership. And Work and Pensions Minister Liz Kendall had a face of thunder, but then she always does.

13:53Here she was speaking to the news. What happened in the Cabinet? Well, the Prime Minister talked about the challenges we face as a country, the crisis in the Middle East, the impact on the cost of living here, and that this government will do what we were elected to do, which is serve the British people. The Prime Minister has my full support in this. But this government doesn't have confidence for your part. Let me just say this. There is a process to challenge the leader. No-one has made that challenge. And what people would expect me to do is to focus on how we can grow the economy, tackle the cost of living and give them a better life.

14:29And that is what lives against him.

14:33Camilla: And here is a housing secretary, Steve Reid, always up for a fight. My minister has my full support. The Labour Party has a process for triggering a leadership election. That has not happened. So we all intend to get on with our jobs. And that's what I'm going to do. One person who did not speak was Wes Streeting. He came out and just walked straight to his massive car, barely looking at us. Must be the only time that Wes Streeting has snubbed the opportunity to be on camera. I know, I know. And in fact, one person in the press pool said to me and to the crowd as a whole, that's just another Starmer.

15:12Camilla: Right. Same complete absence of charisma. Career politician. I mean, to be fair, Starmer wasn't a career politician. He was sort of a career lanyard wearer. But yeah, I mean, but this criticism can be made of Burnham as well. Burnham hasn't had a job outside politics. Nobody has had a job outside Westminster. To be fair, he has gone away and had a big executive role running a very, very important city. I know, but could you define Burnhamism or indeed streetingism? I think, to be fair, you can define Burnhamism. No, you can't. I'm sorry to contradict you. It's Brownite, it's Blairite, it's Corbynite.

15:46He's cooked up his own philosophy called Manchesterism.

15:50Camilla: What is that, Tim? Manchesterism is a kind of a devolved socialism. It's a return to sort of late 19th, early 20th century municipal socialism. So it's more devolution, which has gone really well for Labour. It's more devolution backed by more redistribution, backed by more public ownership of local services. I don't think it'll work. But my point is, is Burnham has actually gone away. He was a blank slate when he was in government. And he famously, you know, the old joke is a brownite, a Blairite, a Corbynite, walk into a bar and the barman says, nice to see you, Mr. Burnham. But to be fair, he has gone away and has cooked up a whole new personality and philosophy.

16:31So many in the PLP are hoping that he can come back and basically just give them a manifesto and say, do this.

16:38Camilla: Possibly, but may I point out that on Thursday, Manchester and Greater Manchester was painted turquoise. That's true. So how successful has he actually been? Yes, yes. You're right about that. Also, Starmer loyalists are keen to point out that guilt yields have been at their highest since 1998. No, I don't know what that means either. But what it translates into is the cost of borrowing, which means the markets are spooked by this Labour government, but they're collapsed. but they're also probably spooked by the prospect of a Rayner or a Burnham premiership. Well, especially if Miliband is in line to be Chancellor.

17:16Camilla: Just to clarify those numbers, Tim. So they rose to 4.7 % under Liz Truss, and she was accused of breaking Britain's economy with those figures. They're now at 5.02%. So borrowing costs in this country are now at a 28-year high. and this is meant to be grown-ups back in charge. This is the party that blamed Liz Struss and continues to blame Liz Struss. They've now outperformed her in economic illiteracy. This is a very good argument for keeping Starmer, by the way, because there is nothing you can do. So long as there is no money, there is no different prospectus that you can bring to number 10.

17:55So you may just as well keep him in.

17:57Camilla: Rachel Reeves pulled out of an event in the City of London today, by the way. Just going to put that there. Well, lucky them. But to go right back to when we were briefed as we were standing on Downing Street that no one had challenged Keir Starmer in cabinet, what we subsequently learned was Keir Starmer let no one speak in cabinet. This is extraordinary. That he began the meeting by saying, I am staying. I am not going to discuss this issue. I will talk to you privately if you wish. And then he moves straight on to his favourite subject, the Iran war and how we're not involved in it. Yes. And then having done that, he apparently didn't meet people privately, including Wes Streeting.

18:40So it's hard to tell with Wes, but it's possible that wasn't a poker face. It was an angry face.

18:46Camilla: Yes, because he's been snubbed. because he has not been able to have the conversation that he wants. Just to explain the split then. So we think we have got obviously streeting against the Prime Minister along with the Home Secretary, Siobhan Mahmood. We've also got Ed Miliband against, but of course he would be because he's been promised a job in a future Burnham government. Lisa Nandy, well, she's never been that friendly with the Prime Minister because I think she thinks that the Boys Club of Downing Street have constantly briefed against her, which by the way they have. Yvette Cooper is a bit difficult to work out, but she blows with the wind.

19:19Camilla: And John Healy. Well, we know why John Healy is upset because he's the one who wants to plough more money into defence and the Prime Minister and Rachel Reeves keep on blocking him even though they both insist that they are responsible for record defence spending. So that's the kind of anti-camp. And then in the pro-camp are the people who came out and spoke to the cameras after the meeting. Add in Darren Jones who has done some very heavy lifting today on the broadcast round. I think Bridget Philipson, sources close to her, are saying that she thinks that the PLP is behaving atrociously. This is all very childish and everyone must get a grip.

19:54Camilla: And, of course, Rachel Reeves on the side of Starmer, even though it's been rumoured that another reset that might be forthcoming is a reshuffle, the Chancellor would be booted out. Extraordinary. Isn't there a part of you, by the way, that is starting to admire Keir Starmer? No. Oh, really? No. Oh, stop it. I've never liked him so much as at this moment What, just digging in? I like how he's refusing to discuss it I like the fact that the man who proudly exclaims every opportunity he can that he is the son of a toolmaker is literally taking one of his dad's shovels and digging in It's like this, the moment has come Yes Your inheritance is here and he is just digging and digging with this trusty tool made by his dad, literally until he is fished out of the ditch, kicking and screaming by his legs.

20:50And he's digging at pace. If only he was on HS2. He's also not allowing his cabinet colleagues to be absolutely clear. The first time in his life, he won't permit it.

21:02Camilla: Let me be absolutely clear. I will not allow you to be absolutely clear in any way because to be absolutely clear, no, I will not meet you after this meeting to be absolutely clear, even though I promise to be clear with you in a private meeting. But the Prime Minister's argument, which I'm sure is painful to listen to, is that... Everything he says is painful to listen to, Tim. Is that as we said at the beginning, that list of 81 plus people... 82 now with Jess Phillips. OK, is not a list of people backing a challenger to his leadership. No, I know. Right now, it is just, this is so socialist.

21:35they've just gathered a petition.

21:37Camilla: It's enough already, Liz. That's all it is. So he can legitimately say, and again, the lawyer's brain, you haven't started the procedure that needs to be followed for me to go. So, so long as the procedure has not been activated, I'm going to carry on with my job. And that very much plays into the language that was released to the press ahead of this cabinet meeting. That's quite right. It's loyally, isn't it? Yes. As I said yesterday, I take responsibility for these election results and I take responsibility for delivering the change we promised. The past 48 hours have been destabilising for government and that has a real economic cost for our country and for families.

22:16Camilla: The Labour Party has a process for challenging a leader and that has not been triggered. Exactly, yeah, yeah. So you say you've got a grudging respect for... You hate the fact that he's a rule follower. You say that you despise this lanyard classation of our politicians and now you're rewarding him for being a stickler for the rules. But I'm not sure that I have ever said, and I hope no one can prove otherwise, that the Prime Minister should actually go. Because I'm not sure it's good for Britain. I thought you wanted Angela Rayner. No, I want Angela Rayner, but I haven't actually, I believe, said he should go.

22:51Can you be honest about Rayner? Because I don't think it's good for this country that we are looking at, within seven years, Theresa May Boris Johnson Liz Truss Rishi Sunak Keir Starmer and then a another within seven years six prime ministers so you want to

23:09Camilla: pile on top of that global humiliation Prime Minister Rainer I think you are just backing Angie because you're a sketch writer yes and you're rubbing your hands together with glee at the prospect as I have said she's not the prime minister we need but she's the prime minister we deserve she is what this country has come to and I would very much enjoy her running it. But I don't think it's healthy that we keep swapping prime ministers. And also, it isn't necessary. We are not a government by focus group. We don't decide who's running our country based upon what the polls show today. We are a country that elects essentially an oligarchy for four or five years.

23:51And we give confidence in them. And we say, you go away and run things. If only Keir Starmer had shown this stubbornness when it came to welfare reform.

24:01Camilla: Yeah, or any of the U-turns. Why didn't he dig his heels in then? He didn't face down. In fact, I'm not sure if this list of rebel MPs is probably actually longer than the welfare list of rebel MPs. We don't know. It never really got tested. Why didn't you stick to your guns for the last 20 months, man? Yeah. That's such a good point. Now, shall we go inside the Labour Party? Coming up next, we speak to Carl Turner, the suspended Labour MP, at the precise moment that we discover Jess Phillips has resigned and we bring you his immediate reaction.

24:47Carl Turner, thank you very much for joining us. It seems to me that there is a stalemate now within the PLP. On the one hand, there are people who would like West Streeting to run, but they probably can't get the numbers to trigger a leadership ballot. On the other hand, there are people who would like Andy Burnham to run, but he's not in Parliament yet, so they don't want a leadership ballot to take place right now because it would exclude him. Is that a fair analysis? I think that analysis is absolutely spot on, And it speaks, doesn't it, to the ridiculous state the Labour Party has found itself in in recent days.

25:25Look, the Prime Minister is saying he's not going to stand down. He's going to insist on the members deciding whether he ought to be the leader of the Labour Party or not. We've got the left and the soft left of the PLP saying we need a longer contest in order to get Burnham in. You've got West Streeting's supporters saying let's go short in order to get Keir Starmer out the door and West Streeting in the door. It's utterly barmy at the moment. But what I say to colleagues, and I've been saying it for days now, is, look, you have to come to realise that all the time Burnham's not in Parliament, he isn't going to be the Prime Minister.

26:09That's just a fact. Now, is the NEC going to change its tune from six months ago when it was blocked on the basis that a mayoralty election in Greater Manchester was going to be costly? Now we find ourselves in a situation where we can't dispute the cost of an election, but it's worse still because we have the evidence of the local election results, which suggests that we would lose the mayorality to reform. And in fact, if God came down from heaven, we're in a red rosette right now, God would not be elected very probably as a Labour member of Parliament for anywhere in the north of England, or frankly, anywhere else in England, Wales, Scotland.

26:54It's insane what's happening at the moment. And I just feel incredibly sorry for the people in the country who were promised in July 2024 stable government.

27:09Camilla: Why hasn't West Streeting moved already, Carl? Because, Kamara, I think we live by this sort of scenario that he or she who sort of wheels the sword or stabs the knife doesn't become the successor to the PM. And I think that's the fear of all of them. PLP members would feel annoyed about that, some of them. But the people these candidates have got to win favour with is the members of the Labour Party. And we ought to remember our recent history. Jeremy Corbyn was never very popular in the Labour Party at the end, but members of the Labour Party didn't want to see the leader being deposed. And that's a problem for whoever goes first, I think.

28:00That's a very good point. And that's similar to Boris Johnson, actually. Even after he left, it remained a dynamic in the race that followed that members were angry that he had been removed. So do you see some of that anger within constituency parties, that people feel the people who are pushing for a race are actually creating more trouble for the party in the long run? I think there's a little bit of that, Tim, but I think it's a bit different with Keir Starmer because, honestly, this doesn't make me happy to have to say it. but on the doorstep, Keir Starmer is more toxic than Jeremy Corbyn ever was.

28:39And that translates to the members as well. So he's not loved by the membership by any stretch in my view. I can only speak for Eastall, by the way, the Eastall CLP. He's not loved by them at all. But there is some members who are saying to me, is the leader. We need to be loyal to the leader. Members have come to me saying he's criticising the leadership of the Labour Party. Just be a bit careful because he's the leader. So there is some sentiment for Keir Starmer's position in the sense that they expect people like me to be loyal to the leader. I find it extraordinary that he might be more unpopular than Jeremy Corbyn.

29:21You'll have to explain that because he's really not that bad in historical terms. The country's not in that much of a mess. He doesn't really put much of a foot wrong. He might bore people, but he doesn't really say anything that outrages them in the way Jeremy Corbyn did. Well, look, I think what I'm trying to say is there are some parts of my constituency that liked Jeremy Corbyn, or at least respected Jeremy Corbyn, for the consistency of his politics. I think Alan Johnson once said, you know, the trouble with Jeremy Corbyn is, is politics haven't changed since he was a young man. That's the truth.

30:03And that that does get some begrudging respect from members of the public. But those areas that are white working class, which is the majority of my patch, cannot stomach Keir Starmer. but also what I describe, not disparagingly, but the frothy coffee-drinking, Guardian-reading lefties. Not disparagingly, no. Hang on, chaps, we've got some breaking news here

30:29Camilla: that I want to put to you, Carl. Jess Phillips has resigned. She's written a letter to the Prime Minister which includes the following lines. I think you are a good man fundamentally who cares about the right things. However, I have seen firsthand how that is not enough. The desire not to have an argument means we rarely make an argument, leaving opportunities for progress stalled and delayed. So Jess Phillips, I would suggest, Carl, if you agree, is the most senior person to publicly denounce the Prime Minister. It's significant because this is the first person to resign who I have heard of. Yes, that's true.

31:06Camilla: Carl, your reaction to that? It's massively significant for more reasons than we're identifying right now. people in the PLP used to comment about my relationship with Keir Starmer in the sense that we would text each other regularly. The PM would message me, he'd ask me my opinion, he'd say, what do you think of this or that? Jess Phillips had that relationship with Keir Starmer, but it was even closer than the relationship I had with Keir Starmer. So it's hugely, massively significant that Jess Phillips has resigned as a minister, And I don't mean this to be sort of, I don't mean to be at the detriment of Jess or indeed West Streeting, but I would suspect Jess Phillips is supporting West Streeting's bid to be the next prime minister.

31:56Camilla: Well, this could cause a domino effect then. Let's just see how this plays out. Carl, take us, because you've just said there that you have been historically close to Keir Starmer. Can you just take us inside his psyche, if you will? Because I think it was significant when he brought back Gordon Brown. I thought, actually, these two chaps are quite similar, lacking in charisma, clunking fisted. We've heard about the cabinet meeting this morning where basically Starmer wouldn't entertain any dissent and then wouldn't have conversations with his cabinet. And I remember that famous phrase about the end of the Brown era, which was when a control freak loses control, all you're left with is a freak.

32:36Camilla: I mean, what is Starmer doing and thinking, do you think, Carl, knowing him well? Keir Starmer is very bloody minded for a start. He often uses the expression, I'm not doing this by committee. In other words, he's made his mind up. He's not going to be persuaded by anybody else. It's no surprise to me at all, I promise you, that Keir Starmer is insisting that he's going nowhere and that the process to replace him as leader is not kicked in and therefore he doesn't need to make a decision. That's very much his style. So he's determined. I tell you, honestly, he's an incredibly hardworking, committed public servant, but he's not very good at politics.

33:17He doesn't see or feel politics in a way that other politicians, Boris Johnson, you know, Neil Kinnock, I'm thinking. Gordon Brown to a degree, I think. Tony Blair definitely could feel politics. They had a good nostril, a good sense of the smell for it. Keir Starmer can't see it, can't smell it, can't feel it, can't hear it. He just doesn't do politics well. It has been characterised, the cabinet meeting, that the prime minister just said, I'm not going to talk about this and move straight on. Is that how you would imagine Keir Starmer would have handled this? Absolutely. He'd have been very much in charge of the meeting.

34:00Cabinet colleagues would have taken the seats. It would have opened with, right, we're not talking about the elections or indeed the reality of the situation I find myself in. We're talking about cabinet business now. And if individuals want to see me privately, then form a queue. he then as I understand it refused to see West Streeting I mean I've made light of it but I tweeted I think a few minutes ago West Streeting is doing his best to get more GP appointments but he can't manage to get an appointment with a PM it's not the growing waiting list it's just you know it's just unbelievable that we're in this scenario West Streeting is a very senior member of the Cabinet, and indeed is the most likely Cabinet member to stand against the Prime Minister.

34:59And for the PM to say, I'm not seeing him, is just like Keir Starmer. I would expect him to behave, but actually it's fairly disrespectful in my view.

35:13Camilla: To just go back to the Phillips resignation, I mean, I don't know. we need to further investigate this, but it could be that there is some kind of coordinated manoeuvre going on, that if she is close to streeting, Carl, there's been a discussion, you know, we'll have the cabinet meeting, we'll then have you resign, we'll then give momentum to me, putting my head above the parapet. I mean, how close are these two, genuinely? I think they're very close. I think they're close politically. Obviously, Jess Phillips is on from the moderate sort of centre ground of the Labour Party. And so is Wes probably to the right slightly of the of the PLP.

35:56So I would expect Jess to be supporting West Streeting's candidacy. Do I know that she is acting on behalf of Wes? I suspect not because she's very much her own woman. But she will be trying to engineer a situation which forces Wes, I think, to say, look, enough's enough. We've got to call it a day now. And Wes has got to be forced out. The problem we've got, of course, I think, is once Wes is in, Angela Rayner's in. That's the truth. And the left of the party, John McDonnell at all, are going to have to decide whether they're corrales around the idea of Angela Rayner in the contest or they decide to hold out for Andy Burnham, which at the moment, I mean, as much as I like Andy, I can't see him getting in.

36:43No.

36:43Camilla: Does Rayna really want it though, Carl? Why does she keep on coming out with these announcements saying how much she supports Burnham, but not really putting her own hat in the ring? I get the tax investigation is ongoing. I'm not convinced this woman wants to be Prime Minister. I think she wants to back up a Burnham Prime Minister. I think that's probably fair enough to a degree. But I think what Angie has said to colleagues for a long time is we have to try and help the prime minister improve. If we're not in a position for that to happen fairly quickly, you know, and there's a contest. If West Streeting stands, I'm going to have to stand.

37:22So what people are telling Angie Rayner is if Streeting stands, you've got to stand. Now, the position's changed a bit, I think, because people are saying, look, we could hold out for Burnham. My view is that's the idea for the Bairds. I know he's on the way down to London as we speak and he's seeing MPs later on this afternoon. But, I mean, nobody can magic up a seat that he can guarantee to win and nobody can guarantee that the NEC are going to change the tune. That's the problem I think we're in. Carl Turner, thank you very much. Thanks. See you tomorrow at 5pm when we will have been on College Green for the King's speech, presuming the King delivers it.

38:56We'll be right back. and your business and search Xero for your free trial. Conditions apply.