Damning Mandelson files leave Starmer reeling

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30Tim: the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

0:50Camilla: The Mandelson files have been released and they're damning. We've learned that Starmer was warned the peer posed a reputational risk before he appointed him US ambassador, and he knew that Mandelson was friends with Jeffrey Epstein after his conviction for paedophilia.

1:05Tim: We've sifted through the 147 pages of documents and deciphered the biggest revelations, including that Mandelson was handed a£75 ,000 payout amid fears that he might go public.

1:18Camilla: Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini.

1:21Tim: And me, Tim Stanley.

1:33Camilla: Tim, we've got out the highlighters this afternoon.

1:35Tim: And the post-it notes.

1:36Camilla: We've raided the stationary cupboard. We've got folders full of the first tranche of the da-da-da Mandelson files. 147 pages. And we wondered this morning, how revelatory are they going to be? They're great, aren't they?

1:50Tim: In the parliamentary lobby this morning, we thought it might be disappointing because, of course, we were warned that one thing that will be missing from these files is what Peter Mandelson said to the Prime Minister. Yes. And the Prime Minister's defence is, Peter Mandelson lied to me. Yeah. But the little information that is contained in the files is devastating, and we shall explain why. But let's quickly run through the timeline to remind ourselves of how we got here. In December 2024, Keir Starmer appointed Peter Mandelson, former New Labour spinner to be ambassador to the United States. Almost immediately, questions were raised about his known relationship with the convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein.

2:32Camilla: Not least by this newspaper, and we'll get on to that in just a minute.

2:35Tim: Yes. As soon as February 2025, a journalist from the FT confronted him about it, and he famously said, F off. But nonetheless, the relationship went so well. Recall when Keir Starmer was present at that meeting with the president, There was this feeling that somehow the UK had managed to play an important role in knitting the Western alliance together.

2:56Camilla: Donald Trump was warm towards Mandelson, wasn't he? He was like, who's this wise guy?

3:00Tim: Yeah, Trump liked him because Mandelson can be a very charming man. But in September of last year, an infamous birthday book was released, Epstein's birthday book, in which Peter Mandelson described him as my best pal. and he was photographed smiling in a bathrobe, sitting opposite the paedophile. This opened up questions about their relationship. Later in that month, Keir Starmer defended him at Prime Minister's questions, which of course spelt Peter Mandelson's almost certain doom.

3:32Camilla: Within 48 hours. He was fired.

3:35Tim: He was sacked. And of course, enter the new year of this year and Congress starts releasing Epstein files and Peter Mandelson is all over them.

3:45Camilla: And his underpants.

3:46Tim: And his underpants. We discover, for instance, that Epstein had given£10 ,000 to Mandelson's husband to fund an osteopathy course. They suggest that Epstein lent Lord Mandelson£55 ,000 between 2003 and 2004. But perhaps most damningly, we discover that Peter Mandelson allegedly was sharing leaked market-sensitive information to Jeffrey Epstein while he was working for Gordon Brown.

4:15Camilla: So he's business secretary and within minutes seemingly of receiving sensitive information, he allegedly passes it on to Jeffrey Epstein, which is significant for two reasons. First of all, this is a post-conviction Jeffrey Epstein.

4:28Tim: Yes.

4:28Camilla: And second of all, he's an American financier with extremely controversial links and indeed a criminal record.

4:36Tim: Yes, of course, Peter Mandelson, we will have to keep saying throughout this broadcast, Broadcast denies everything, as does the former Duke of York.

4:45Camilla: And the police are still investigating both for misconduct in public office. We've witnessed in recent weeks, haven't we, Tim, Mandelson's home being raided. The Andrew, formerly known as Prince, having his homes, plural, raided. Homes have been raided everywhere. The investigation, we must stress, is ongoing. And so far, no charges have been brought.

5:07Tim: Mandelson, of course, was arrested very publicly and his passport was confiscated after it was rumoured that he might flee to the Virgin Islands. His passport has now been returned to him and he says that the rumour that he was going to flee was nonsense. So what are these documents? Some of these documents are being viewed by the police, but this relates to a separate investigation, Cabinet Office investigation, into the appointment of Peter Mandelson. What advice was given? Why was someone so controversial appointed? And where precisely does blame lie for this appointment?

5:44Camilla: I was expecting just to see Tim, conversations about how he was vetted, the questions that may have been asked about his past and how it may affect his future. And for it just to be left at that, what we've actually got is an extra section on his severance payment, which is going to prove extremely controversial because basically the taxpayers ended up paying this guy around 70 grand. He had asked for half a million because the remainder of his contract, he was employed on around£180 ,000 a year if you include resident staff. That's more, by the way, than Keir Starmer. Make a mental note. He was arguing, well, actually, I haven't seen the contract out, so you owe me half a million.

6:29Camilla: And actually, the cabinet office and others have said, no, you're just getting 70 grand. Even that's going to be controversial.

6:36Tim: Speaking in the House of Commons this afternoon, Darren Jones, who is the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister, actually said that the government negotiated him down to£75 ,000 but agreed to that amount, quote, to avoid an employment tribunal.

6:52Camilla: Yes. And there is an email with Peter Mandelson saying, I think I know my employment rights.

6:58Tim: Yeah. Which he would very well do. He's a Labour minister. Indeed so. But whatever happened to public service and noblesse oblige? Now, what did Darren Jones say in sharing these documents with the House? He began by expressing his, quote, disgust and horror at the nature and extent of the relationship between Mandelson and Epstein. He said the prime minister has taken responsibility for Peter Mandelson's appointment. The prime minister has apologized, not least for believing Peter Mandelson's lies. And he said the prime minister deeply regrets taking him at his word. So as we go through what the documents say, that's the key thing that people have to bear in mind.

7:37Tim: How much did Keir Starmer know? We don't know what Mandelson said to him. But from these documents, how much did he know before even speaking to Mandelson? And the documents cover four key areas. One, the initial advice that was given to the prime minister. Second, Mandelson's resignation. Third, the investigation into the vetting. And finally, the question of the payoff, which we can return to later.

8:08Camilla: Quick point before we move to page two, the first page of our highlights. The Prime Minister says he's taken responsibility for both the employing and sacking of Peter Mandelson. I'm not sure that's quite right, Keir Starmer. I think Morgan McSweeney has taken responsibility, responsibility, his former chief of staff who had to fall on his sword over this. He's the one who's taken responsibility. So if we move to page two, Tim, this is the first warning to the prime minister that if he makes this very political appointment, if he chooses somebody with the history of Peter Mandelson.

8:41Tim: Rather than a career diplomat.

8:43Camilla: Indeed. And let's not forget that Karen Pierce, who was in place, was doing a perfectly reasonable job and getting on very well with Republicans.

8:49Tim: And as it's pointed out in these documents, it is unusual to make a political appointment like this.

8:55Camilla: Here's the killer line. If anything goes wrong, you could be more exposed as the individual is more connected to you personally. That is a very stark warning that he is taking risk with this appointment. Now, I know...

9:12Tim: It is also said if anything goes wrong, then it is arguably less destabilising if there is a career diplomat in place for the government to change an official ambassador. So he has been warned, this can come back to you personally. And if something goes wrong with a political appointment, it'll be more embarrassing than a diplomatic one.

9:30Camilla: There's more detail then in pages 10 and 11 about the actual risk of appointing a figure like Peter Mandelson. And just to quantify it...

9:39Tim: This is so funny. It's so bad.

9:43Camilla: It's so bad.

9:43Tim: This is his curriculum vitae and it's like almost all bad.

9:48Camilla: It's not great. Can I just point out, just to quantify, that the words reputational risk is used five times and references to the Prime Minister's reputation are used eight times. So we cannot be in any doubt whatsoever that the Prime Minister was very starkly and repeatedly warned that the appointment of Peter Mandelson could cause him significant reputational risk.

10:15Tim: Well, this document, which dates from the 4th of December 2024, and is the, quote, due diligence checklist on Peter Mandelson, this is where there are four references to reputational risk. Let's not even discuss Jeffrey Epstein.

10:32Camilla: Yes.

10:32Tim: The document begins by discussing his role as president of Global Council, the strategic advice consultancy. High-profile clients include TikTok, Shell, Accenture, the Premier League, JP Morgan, Santander, BP, Sizewell C and Sheehan. It says reputational risks could occur relating to any of these clients dealing with the UK or USA government. It notes Global Council is currently under investigation by the Registrar of Consultant Lobbyists for failing to disclose the Qatari Free Zones Authority as a client. Right.

11:07Camilla: There's further reporting that is taken from the Daily Mail in this warning document, also pointing out that Mandelson served as a non-executive director of the Russian conglomerate Systema, which itself is a majority shareholder of RTI, a defence technology company. RTI produced radar and satellite communications for Russia's land-based missile early warning system and its chairman was a Putin ally and former prime minister. Mandelson remained on the board until 2017, long after Putin's annexation of Crimea. I mention that because there's also a mention in this Daily Mail report, which has been put before the prime minister, saying the website of Global Council still contains his flowery account of his October 2018 meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

11:57Camilla: And I had previously reported about Global Council's links to China.

12:02Tim: Well, there is a section that says that Peter Mandelson is, quote, seen as an advocate for closer UK-China relations. This falls under an entire page and a half.

12:14Camilla: Yes.

12:14Tim: Which is simply headlined Reputational Risks. And again, we haven't even got on to Epstein yet. It notes that he, quote, twice resigned as Labour minister in the Blair Brown administrations, concluding that there is general reputational risk around previous departures from the new Labour government, both relating to financial matters, including high profile donors to the government.

12:40Camilla: So that's a reference to both the Hinduja scandal in which Mandelson was embroiled and also that loan that he allegedly received from Geoffrey Robinson, a cabinet colleague who himself was under investigation at that point. Shall we get on to Jeffrey Epstein? Because the Telegraph has played a role. There is one newspaper article cited here that it is recommended Keir Starmer reads about Mandelson's historic links to Epstein. Funny enough, Tim, I vaguely remember it because my name is on it, along with two colleagues. So I helped to contribute to this story laying bare in over a thousand words why and how and in what manner Mandelson and Epstein were intrinsically linked.

13:30Camilla: It's cited here as an example of evidence to show how close they were. The prime minister definitely saw it and yet we assume chose to ignore it.

13:43Tim: Well, let's say he doesn't know how to use a mouse and he didn't click on the document and he didn't read what you wrote. This document, again, this comes back to Peter Mandelson has previously tried to suggest that his relationship with Epstein was not very close and certainly not post-conviction.

14:31Tim: Quote, founded by Ghislaine Maxwell and funded by Epstein.

14:38Camilla: That does suggest a degree of closeness over quite a few years, doesn't it? Yes.

14:43Tim: The Cabinet Office, it says, holds official records that are likely to be released by the National Archives early next year, which relate to a Tony Blair meeting with Epstein that was facilitated by Mandelson.

14:52Camilla: Yes, Tim, let's turn to pages 16 and 17, where we have an email exchange between Peter Mandelson and Jonathan Powell, May 2002. At that point, Powell was chief of staff to Tony Blair.

15:06Tim: This is Peter Manilson advocating for a meeting between Blair and Epstein. I just want to add, we're not 100 % sure if Keir Starmer saw this. It would make sense if he did, because it's referenced to in the other document.

15:17Camilla: Well, it's also under the headline, Advice to the Prime Minister. It must have been included in the bundle.

15:22Tim: OK, let's assume he did. But here is Peter describing Epstein. Jeffrey is an active scientific catalyst slash entrepreneur, whatever the hell that is, as well as someone who has his finger on the pulse of many worldwide markets and currencies. He is young and vibrant.

15:43Camilla: Can I point out that Jeffrey Epstein was 49 at the time this was written? Hey, that's young.

15:47Tim: He is safe, whatever that means. And Clinton is now doing a lot of travelling with him. Now, a document was later produced that month, sent from Matthew Rycroft to Blair to explain who he was going to meet at 5pm today.

16:10Camilla: Matthew Rycroft being a very senior member of the civil service.

16:13Tim: He describes Epstein thus. He is a financial advisor to the super-rich and property developer. He is a friend of Bill Clinton and Peter Mandelson. And by background, he says Epsene is, I mean, this almost turns my stomach. It says in bold format, very rich.

16:34Camilla: Right.

16:35Tim: He has a$30 million home in New York, plus a 10 ,000 acre ranch in New Mexico and a villa in Palm Beach. He made his money working for billionaire Leslie Wexner, who owns, among many other things, the lingerie firm Victoria's Secret. And the other detail that he shares is he is, again, this is in bold, close to the Duke of York. He seems to have met Prince Andrew through Robert Maxwell's daughter Ghislaine, with whom he has had an on-off relationship. He visited Sandringham and Windsor last year. Cozy. Nice.

17:10Camilla: Shall we fast forward to, I mean, it is quite interesting, isn't it, just from a voyeuristic point of view, to see the HR letter that was sent to Peter upon his appointment. Yes. Dear Peter, congratulations on the new role. We're really looking forward to working with you. I understand you haven't received the attached forms yet, which Morgan mentioned to you this morning. Now, I only mention that because Morgan being mentioned by first name only, McSweeney, does suggest, of course, and he has taken responsibility for this, brackets, unlike the Prime Minister, a key role in this appointment and indeed kind of smoothing the logistics of the appointment.

17:49Camilla: That's what that email suggests.

17:51Tim: We're in late 2024 now at the time of Peter's appointment as ambassador. And as you say, we're discussing salary. And here's one memo that says the baseline salary is£153 ,000, which is topped up with additional expenditure of£27 ,252. That's for, quote, domestic help provided by resident staff. Taken together, this provide total remuneration of£180 ,252. I love that this message concludes with, I'm happy to discuss with you once you've had a chance to reflect. Can I just point out... Or perhaps have a dance and punch the air.

18:28Camilla: Indeed. Yes, exactly. Can I also point out that this includes room and board? he gets to say at the embassy. So this is extraordinary really. And by the way, it's more than the Prime Minister earns. The Prime Minister's salary is currently up to£172 ,153. So it is eight grand more apparently to be just the ambassador to the US. I just also wanted to point out that at some point during this due process, it is noted that Peter's nomination to be the US ambassador has caused no issue in the Trump camp.

19:12Tim: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of TED's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Let me share with you why smart finance leaders turn to Bill. They know that clarity isn't just helpful, it's strategic. As the intelligent finance platform, Bill uses AI to automate the busy work for nearly half a million businesses so they can focus on intentional growth. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply.

19:43Tim: See offer page for details.

19:52Camilla: Okay, Tim, we now need to fast forward to the resignation, but let's preface it by reminding ourselves that on Wednesday, September the 10th, at Prime Minister's questions, Keir Starmer said he had full confidence in Peter Mandelson.

20:09Tim: The victims of Epstein are the forefront of our minds. He was a despicable criminal who committed the most heinous crimes and destroyed the lives of so many women and girls. The ambassador has repeatedly expressed his deep regret for his association with him. at his right to do so. I have confidence in him and he's playing an important role in the UK-US relationship.

20:33Camilla: The very next day, the wheels appear to come off.

20:37Tim: Yet more documents come out that prove that his relationship was far deeper than expected. And according to a memo in this by Isla Terry, the Private Secretary for Foreign Affairs to the Prime Minister's office, the PM calls an emergency meeting in which he discusses it with all the affected people. He says, quote, the emails revealed a depth and extensive relationship with Epstein, which the Prime Minister had not been aware of previously when he made the decision to appoint him. And on this basis, he proposed to ask Mandelson to resign from his post. Mandelson resigns. And later that day, we now have a copy of the email that Mandelson sent to the staff with tears in his eyes.

21:14Tim: Quote, I continue to feel utterly awful about my association with Epstein 20 years ago and the plight of his victims. I have no alternative to accepting the Prime Minister's decision, and will leave a position in which I have been so incredibly honoured to serve. Back in London, people start ringing around to ask what the hell went wrong.

21:35Camilla: Matthew Doyle, the No. 10 Director of Communications, is embroiled in a fact-finding call to try and find out, I think, whether No. 10 can justify believing Mandelson when he said he and Epstein weren't that close.

21:49Tim: This call occurred, by the way, on September the 12th at 8pm, So that gives you a sense of how fast things are moving.

21:56Camilla: As part of this fact-finding mission that takes place in desperation on the 12th of September, so this is the Friday, a conversation takes place between Matthew Doyle, who had been Number 10's Director of Communications but had left his role, and a man called Mike Ostheimer, who is the General Counsel to the PM, so basically the PM's lawyer. And in that, Doyle confirms, yes, he was a personal friend of Mandelson's, that he would not have had a unilateral meeting with Mandelson to discuss his appointment, that he did, however, have a number of conversations with Morgan McSweeney, which were one on one.

22:36Camilla: He recalls other political meetings, some more formal than others. He recalls some quotes back and forth with Morgan McSweeney, which resulted in three specific questions for Lord Mandelson to answer in respect of Jeffrey Epstein. Possibly some discussion of global council. We've already mentioned that, Tim, as well. Doyle also remembers interactions with the aforementioned Elsa Terry and Jonathan Powell on the matter but not the details. He believes that Jonathan Powell was particularly cautious about the appointment and we'll come on to that in just a minute because there is a significant Jonathan Powell email questioning the timing of it all.

23:20Tim: And he does not recall any unique correspondence or a specific letter from Mandelson to the Prime Minister about the appointment. That conversation you just described, Camilla, took place at 8pm. We have a summary of a conversation that then took place at 8.35pm between Mike Ostheimer and Jonathan Powell.

23:37Camilla: So Ostheimer, Keir Starmer's lawyer, gets off the phone from Doyle and immediately appears to call Jonathan Powell.

23:43Tim: And I think, aside from the initial document informing the Prime Minister of the many ways in which he should have been suspicious about Peter Mandelson, If this cache of documents is merely a teaser to what we're going to read once the police have released the rest, this is the biggest tease of all. Jonathan Powell, quote, found the appointment process unusual of Lord Mandelson, quote, weirdly rushed. He said he does not recall any specific meetings on this that he was involved in, though there were a few conversations. and says that he raised concerns about Mandelson and his reputation to Morgan McSweeney.

24:27Tim: And Morgan McSweeney responded that the issues had been addressed. So there you have Jonathan Powell saying that the whole process was weirdly rushed and then being assured by Morgan McSweeney that the issues with regards to reputation had been addressed.

24:48Camilla: And that's significant because Jonathan Powell was all too familiar with Lord Mandelson because he worked very closely with Tony Blair and was at the heart of that so-called SOFA, New Labour government. So of anybody in Keir Starmer's team now, Powell certainly knew where the bodies were buried. Can I just make a little note to page 98? I had got wind of this and I think fed it into a story that the reason that Mandelson wasn't able to immediately vacate the embassy in Washington was because of a problem with his dog, Jock. We have that confirmed in email correspondence saying that there has been a delay in obtaining Jock's veterinary certification.

25:30Camilla: I was told that, that they couldn't fly back because the dog hadn't been given the all clear. Just a little canine note there that you may appreciate.

25:39Tim: He has my sympathy on that score. Yeah.

25:41Camilla: Shall we talk about the severance pay?

25:43Tim: They should have sent HMS Dragon over to pick them up.

25:45Camilla: Well, unfortunately, it would have taken even longer and it could have fallen apart en route. Shall we get on to the special severance payment documents, which are at page 107? So they have to work out how they're going to, safely and legally, without incurring a tribunal, sack Peter Mandelson. Now, at the end of the day, Peter Mandelson knows about the importance of allowing people to get filthy rich, provided they pay their taxes, but also, I would imagine, has cribbed up on employment law during his many decades in Labour politics. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office wanted to pay him 40 grand in lieu of three months' notice, plus a termination payment of 34 grand, taking the total amount up to 75.

26:32Camilla: It was argued by Ollie Robbins, then the permanent undersecretary of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, this represents good value for money. I'm not sure if taxpayers will agree with that verdict, but perhaps they could agree if it meant averting a costly legal case, Tim.

26:50Tim: Well, maybe the government was looking to dodge a bullet because we do have an email exchange in which officials discuss Peter Mandelson's reaction to the offer. They say that, quote, he has sought advice. During the conversation, he intimated that this had been from senior counsel, a KC specializing in employment law. So he might have been lawyering up. His argument heavily focuses on the reasonableness of the PM's decision, which is funny because in the email to staff, we have him saying, I have no choice but to accept, but it seems in private, he may have been disputing how reasonable the decision was.

27:27Tim: There is some carefully placed language around the public implications of not reaching a settlement and the nature of an employment tribunal case. There you are. As I said at the very beginning, Darren Jones said to the House, it was this or we face a possible employment tribunal. So there it is in black and white. And the author of this memo adds, there is a potential that absent a positive indication, Peter goes public on some of his claims. So there is some urgency.

27:57Camilla: And let's not forget that he had given recent interviews. He'd given interviews to Laura Koonsberg and had also done an at-home-with special in Times Magazine. Let's fast forward, Tim, to an email exchange in the October of 2025, just making a casual reference to the fact that actually that£75 ,000 payout might not have been enough for Peter Mandelson. And there's a suggestion here. It says, it might be worth mentioning that he opened negotiations asking us to pay out his contract over 500k. Mark did very well to get this settlement down this low with minimal fuss. So clearly, slightly Trumpian in his demand for half a million, actually ends up settling on under 100 ,000.

28:46Tim: Yes, yes. Well, he really doesn't have a case, does he? Because he was resigning in disgrace.

28:50Camilla: There's one more email that I just wanted to point out that I've only just spotted in these files, which to be fair, we have been rapidly pouring over in a bit to get this podcast out on time. This is from February 2026. So this month, suggesting, I mean, because this is the other side of this. Obviously, journalistically, it's fascinating. Anyone interested in politics wants to be pouring over these documents. Of course, it's interesting to see imagery of fallen politicians, fallen royals being questioned by the police and having their home searched. But this is quite interesting and it may reflect sort of Labour speak, but this is between officials discussing Peter Mandelson's state of mind.

29:35Camilla: It would also be great to know that there has been a welfare check and to do one each day, if that's OK, for a while. I just think that's interesting that on one hand they are, I mean, the administration has almost been brought down by this guy. Keir Starmer at this point is completely on the rocks. Quite frankly, he's thanking his lucky stars that there's a war in Iran going on in an attempt to overshadow this story. And let's be honest, the thing we haven't pointed out is how many documents have been unnecessarily added to this tranche in a bid to bury some of the more juicy details. But obviously you've got an entire Westminster lobby pouring over it, including many journalists at this newspaper.

30:14Camilla: So there's not much hiding anything. but even as recently as last month there are concerns over Peter Mandelson's welfare. I think from the point of view of Mandelson the wrangling over the settlement shows just how

30:29Tim: venial he is and it confirms everything we think about the man. This is not John Profumo getting caught going to work for the poor for the rest of his life quietly. This is a man going down potentially threatening an employment tribunal. As regards to the political fallout of this, people will be listening or watching this and wondering, so when does the prime minister go? Now, the answer to that is, as we keep saying, this is only part one. There is part two, which is Peter Mandelson and what he said to the prime minister that was so convincing that it outweighs all of this.

31:07Camilla: Yes.

31:08Tim: So what Keir Starmer will be saying to his backbenchers right now is you've got to wait and see. You've got to wait and hear. And so that buys him a little time. Do MPs want to give him that? I suspect they do. I suspect they do. Partly because they looked into the abyss of a leadership challenge some time ago and realised there was no one qualified to replace him. They don't want the chaos. And they're all a little bit running scared after Gordon and Denton. Right. So give the prime minister time now to mount his defence. But I think much of the public will be thinking, this proves that before we even get into the weeds of what Peter Mandelson said, this proves that you knew enough that he was controversial, that officials told you there would be potentially personally damaging fallout from employing this person, and that what little evidence we have thus far suggests that the process of vetting was expedited and was insufficient.

32:09Camilla: Also, it confirms that the information was in the public domain. It's interesting that a former lawyer should demand what we call in the trade a paginated bundle of evidence. And actually, this evidence may come to damn him. It's the technocratic approach to turn around to the public and say, well, we are having an investigation and I will reveal the paperwork. only to realise that he's now hoist by his own petard.

32:40Tim: Yes.

32:41Camilla: Because it's not just you were told. Everything he was told was out in the open anyway.

32:48Tim: Yes.

32:48Camilla: So it wasn't as if there was any secrecy. No. You don't have to be Perry Mason to find this stuff.

32:53Tim: No, you just go on the Telegraph website. But also you can infer from the documents that officials were saying, this man has a reputation. Yes. So if the Prime Minister's defence is, well, I put all this to him and he told me it was wrong, then why would you believe him? Oh, my Lord.

33:13Camilla: OK, let's finish with a little bit of political reaction. Tim, Kemi Badenok, the opposition leader on X, Mandelson reportedly leaked sensitive government documents. Starmer knew Mandelson had stayed close friends with Epstein after the conviction for child prostitution, but made him ambassador anyway. Now we see he paid Mandelson almost 80 grand of our money. His judgment is shocking.

33:35Tim: Ed Davey has argued that Mandelson should donate that severance payout. He has said, quote, It's astonishing Mandelson received a payout even after his longstanding connections to Epstein were discovered. These files show beyond doubt the prime minister was made well aware of the risks of his appointment. What an insult to the women and girls who suffered at Epstein's hands. The disgraced ambassador must donate any severance payment he received in full to charity. These are the first documents in Britain's Epstein files. The government must now release all documents relating to Andrew's appointment.

34:07Camilla: Love the Lib Dem leader. They're getting excited about Britain's Epstein files. Anything the Americans can do, we can do better. Has Nigel Farage said anything?

34:16Tim: Not as yet.

34:18Camilla: No, we wait with bated breath. Now, I feel a Q &A coming on, Tim. We're doing this special Daily Tea series on our socials, X the Tiki Tok and Instagram, where we answer questions. We answer our audience's burning questions. And clearly there are going to be many about these new, as Davey is calling them, Britain's Epstein files, the Mandelson files. We have our files and folders. We have a set of highlighters. We won't be afraid to answer your queries. So do please get in touch. You can email us at thedailytea at telegraph.co.uk or you can contact us via those social channels at Daily Tea Podcast.

34:59Tim: See you again tomorrow at 5pm.

35:28Tim: Hey, this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast, Rethinking with Adam Grant. Let me share with you why smart finance leaders turn to Bill. They know that clarity isn't just helpful, it's strategic. As the intelligent finance platform, Bill uses AI to automate the busy work for nearly half a million businesses so they can focus on intentional growth. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com slash proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a$250 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply.

35:59Tim: See offer page for details.