Danny Kruger defects to Reform and says Tories are 'over'

0:03Camilla: The Telegraph.

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1:23Camilla: It's a nightmare on Torrey Street, Tim. Danny Kruger. God, this is a bad joke. Not to be confused with Freddie, has defected to reform. Are the Tories dead? I was there for the defection. I can report on how it felt. And let's talk also about the Labour Party, which is in a great deal of trouble too. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Tim Stanley.

1:55Camilla: Tim Stanley, fresh from Danny Kruger Yes Announcing his new best friendship with Nigel Farage For those listening to audio, I am wearing a Dayglo Reform bracelet Don't wear that outside, just in case you get lynched I didn't see this coming I did not see this coming, which is one reason why it was quite sparsely attended. There were very few Reform Party members there. It was held at the Mayfair Hotel, which is not their normal location, a beautiful gold ballroom. It felt a bit like the ballroom in The Shining. I've been there. I did Wendy Richards' exit interview from EastEnders at that hotel.

2:31Camilla: Carry on. Well, in a way, this is not totally dissimilar. Indeed. So there were very few members. There was the press pool there, and there was a whisper that maybe there'd be defection involved. The name that everyone had was Esther McVeigh. Oh, yes. I don't know if that was a clever deflection on the part of reform, but when Danny walked out onto the stage, there was genuine surprise and on my part, some shock. Did you audibly gasp? I didn't quite gasp, but I guess it felt personal to me in a way that it weren't for many people in the room because I have known Danny Kruger for many years. Yeah, you were going to have dinner with him at the Tory party conference.

3:10I did tweet, I guess, that our dinner at the Tory conference is off. And as soon as it was over, I went over and spoke to him and I put that to him. That was my... Yes. This was the question the public needs to know the answer to. We're still having dinner at the Tory conference. And he said, the dinner is still on, but I won't be there. It's now being hosted by Claire Cortino.

3:26Camilla: Oh, well, fair enough. Yeah, I won't be going to that. Out of interest, because you do know Danny Kruger well, and tell me in a minute how you know him so well, but was he... How did he treat you? Because he'd be interested, I'm sure, in your view of whether this was a wise idea or not. He said, what do you think about this? And I said, I have mixed opinions. And I felt that wasn't quite what he wanted to hear. We didn't have long enough to discuss why. But I said to him, to me, it just feels like the Conservative Party is splitting up and that's painful. Shall we listen first of all to Danny Kruger describe why he has defected to reform?

4:03I hoped after our defeat last year that the Conservative Party would learn the obvious lesson. that the old ways don't work, that centrism is not enough, that real change is needed. But no, we've had a year of stasis and drift and the sham unity that comes from not doing anything bold or difficult or controversial. And the result is in the polls. And those lost voters aren't coming back. And every day more and more people are joining them in deserting the party that has failed. And so this is my tragic conclusion. The Conservative Party is over. When Karuka started speaking, you can hear from his speaking style, he's very unlike a reform person, right?

4:58He is philosophical and he's a man of ideas and his language is also very precise. And so when he spoke, there was a feeling among the press, and I spoke to journalists afterwards, and they agreed with me on this, of, oh, an actual adult has entered the room. Yes. He's not the biggest name in Westminster. He's not a name the public will be familiar with, although some people might know him for the fight that he put up against the assisted dying bill. That's probably what he's best known for. His position in the Tory party is only shadow undersecretary for work and pensions. Nonetheless, this is a frontbencher, and the first sitting Tory MP to defect.

5:36Leigh Anderson defected, but he wasn't in the party when he defected. So it is politically significant, but not the biggest thing. But for those of us who know Westminster, this is a very serious person who's written a book about his ideas. And for him to go over, that feels like a real loss for the Tories and a real gain for reform. I actually sensed, watching Farage's face, that at certain points he slightly outshone the party leader.

6:00Camilla: Ooh, is that allowed? I don't know if that's allowed. And Nigel, when he feels like he's not entirely the centre of attention, starts to pull Frankie Howard-type faces, sort of oohs and ahs and oohs and no misses. He's playing to the crowd in the background. It's very funny to watch. And there was even a moment when Tony Diver of The Telegraph asked a question about, you have invited civil servants and military people to get in touch with advice on how to run the government. Are you asking people to break their oaths of confidentiality to the government and leak you information about what's going on inside government and the military?

6:35And Nigel went in on, well, it's a great thing to get their advice and we welcome it. We can't wait to hear from them. And there are a lot of people, there are a lot of people inside the government who really think this country's a mess. I've had a lot of people contact me, mostly those from the military or the civil service that have quite recently left, one or two in very senior positions, who have no desire to go public but genuinely want to help because they see what the problems are. We're not encouraging people to break their oaths or break the law or be whistleblowers, but my impression is there are many working within the system who are frankly in despair.

7:12And then Kruger spoke and said... Yeah, and let me emphasise, we're seriously not encouraging people to break oaths or to, as it were, sort of betray the government they work for.

7:20Camilla: So he's bringing him back onto the reservation the whole time. Yes, it wasn't quite a correction, but you watch this and thought, that's both useful for the party to have someone who really understands how these things work, but also, oh, will Nigel like being subtly corrected? So they're going to put Kruger in charge of preparing reform for government. Yes. Also, I do think it ticks the box that needed to be ticked for Nigel Farage, which is briefly summarised as, do you know what you're doing? You don't have any experience at all of actually running a country. There's a lot of rhetoric from reform.

7:59Camilla: Some of it isn't backed up with detail. Sometimes there's a lot of talk and no trousers to the talk. Kruger's that serious figure. He also did a lot of heavy lifting. People might remember him from COVID, actually, because he was extremely anti-lockdown and made a very, very cogent and compelling case for keeping schools open. Yes, he was caught unmasked at one point as well. Shock horror. He was, yes. How dare he? And the other thing that piqued my interest is that I think we can both agree that Danny Kruger is a Christian conservative. Oh, yes. He is very much in the vein of what Farage is talking about when he talks about faith, family and flag, which is heavily borrowed from the J.D.

8:42Camilla: Vance School of American right-wing politics. And that's intriguing to me. do we think that Farage is going to move closer to a degree of evangelising? I think Farage does do God, to quote Alistair Campbell, saying the opposite of Tony Blair. I think he does God and clearly he is a huge proponent of traditional British values. But I'm not sure if Farage is as credible in the kind of Christian, in inverted commas, mould as somebody like Vance. I would say Danny Kruger is more a Christian than he is a conservative. The politics flows from the religion. I wouldn't say that's true of Nigel Farage.

9:23But Nigel Farage does go to church. He has, I'm told in his private life, shown greater interest in religion in recent years. That's a personal thing. It also reflects developments on the right. What is the big existential question? It's this feeling that Western civilization is under attack and could actually collapse. Well, what is Western civilization? It's Judeo-Christian values, if you want to put it in its most cliched way, which really means Christianity, right? So it makes sense that reform would be open to those who are motivated by Christianity, because that's the direction the right and much of the country is taking at the moment anyway.

10:03Kruger joining them invites Christian conservatives to come over. And there are many we could name, I'm thinking Miriam Cates, who works with you at GB News. We've all been wondering what she's going to do. Suella Braverman is a Buddhist, not a Christian, but is very socially and culturally conservative. Will she come over? Jacob Rees-Mogg. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Kruger is the kind of person who, as we said, not well known by the public, but very well known and respected within Westminster, who particularly evangelical conservatives will look at and think, well, if he's going over, maybe I can. On the point about, which everyone's going to hint at, Farage himself laughed at his personal record on Christian questions.

10:43Camilla: Yes. He was asked the question, Kruger has said that marriage is between a man and a woman. Is that a view that the Reform Party takes? Interestingly, Nigel didn't allow Kruger to answer. Probably sensible because Danny might have dug a grave for himself there because he would give an honest answer, which I think he does believe that. But Nigel very cleverly pivoted onto the importance of stability. The importance of stability. And he said, I think that people know that a man and a woman in a relationship tend to have greater stability. I think one thing for certain is children who have two stable parents have a better chance in life.

11:17And then he laughed and said... And the most stable... Well, maybe not my example, but the most stable relationships, the ones that last the longest, tend to be between men and women. Of course, not in my case. No, indeed. But I actually think that's a strength. The ability to sell traditional Christian values with a nod and a wink that says, but I'm not judgmental and preachy because look at me. I like a fag and I like a glass of wine. That's the Nigel Farage shtick, right? Yes. I'm right wing, but I'm not a nutball.

11:45Camilla: No, indeed. It's a kind of like butlinzization of being a pastor. Yes. It's sort of like there's a degree in which Farageanism is a religion, but it's a religion wearing a red coat. Yes. And therefore it's quite accessible. And there is a strain of conservatism that some people find off-putting. God rest his soul. There were critics of Charlie Kirk who, my daughter, for instance, she liked some of his right-wing protestations, but she found him a bit too Christian for her liking. And there'll be many like that. You know, we're increasingly secular. I'm also wondering whether the Christian shtick is literally a stick with which to beat those who seem to be propping up Islamic fundamentalists.

12:31Camilla: But that's probably a conversation for another day. We should mention that Danny Kruger's mother is Prue Leith. We should. I think we can agree is probably a national treasure now. Let's say something about who Danny is because I think it's fascinating. The way to understanding Danny Kruger is that he's South African. Yes. He wasn't raised there, but his parents are both South African. His name is Kruger. And if you look at him, there's something he has that cold, steely-eyed look of someone looking out across the veld at an animal to hunt. There's this sort of inner South African steeliness of Danny Kruger, which I think is very compelling.

13:05Yes, mother is Prue-Leaf. Went to Eton, went to Oxford. He was David Cameron's chief speechwriter. He's responsible for the hugger hoodie speech. But as he pointed out when this was raised at the press conference, if you read the entire speech, It was saying people who wear hoodies come from broken homes, etc. and need the love of the community. But if they cross the line and break the law, they should also be locked up. And the problem is the speech is only remembered for half of that. But in his private life, he's for many years run a charity that particularly helps people who have just been let out of prison.

13:39And that's how I met Danny Kruger. about 15 years ago, I was invited by his charity to write a play for people who had just been let out of prison to act in. Yes. Go on. And it was a fascinating experience. I met him briefly in the course of doing that. It was a privilege to work with the youth, most of whom were Afro-Caribbean, working class, just out of prison. And I wrote them a little play. What was it called and what was it about? I can't remember. What?

14:09Camilla: How can you write a play and not remember the title or the contents, Tim Stanley? I know, because I did a lot of things when I was younger and it doesn't stick in the brain, but Danny will confirm this did happen. And I'm very proud of having done it because it was very nice to work with them and fascinating. You know, when you spoke about him just now, I thought, gosh, he's very much cut from the Ian Duncan Smith cloth, isn't he? Yes. Wants to help with social justice. Yes. Wants to be a proponent of compassionate conservatism. Yes. isn't your archetypal righty really, although he is very forthright with his views.

14:43This is conservatism with a conscience. It's conservatism with a conscience,

14:47Camilla: which is not necessarily something you would say about reform at the moment. Reform at the moment seems quite cruel, according to the left anyway. Deport migrants. Let's go back to the 80s. Greed is good. A lot of people do appear at their conferences and events wearing suits that seem to have been tailored in the 1980s, let's be honest. So this is kind of like a degree of right-wing progressiveness comes with Danny Kruger. But he would... So others would have said in the past, Maggie Thatcher wanted to reform the economy, not because she wanted people to become insanely rich and be nasty and greedy, but because she wanted to help the poor to rise up.

15:22And to buy their council houses. Nigel Farage wants to control immigration, not because he hates foreigners, but because he thinks it's bad for the economy and it's bad for society. And I think the Tommy Robinson march of the weekend proved that to be true. That is one of the legacies of open borders, is the return of the far right. And in Danny's case, he's a critic of liberalism, not because he's a horrible or intolerant person, but because he thinks that particularly social and cultural liberalism has abandoned people and has meant in practice people just living lonely, unfulfilled lives.

15:50Camilla: Shall we just have a quick chat about the march before we just digest what this all means for Kemi Badenok, who's gone from her best week now to her worst week? Yes. Nigel Farage repeatedly said at the conference that the vast majority of people at the march were good, law-abiding people. Totally agree. They just wanted to express their patriotism. Totally agree. I don't know if it's true because I wasn't on it. Well, look, I saw some footage of it. I didn't go on it either. I saw some footage of it. Obviously, there are always those elements, the kind of mad, thuggish elements that just want a scrap with the police.

16:18Camilla: Yeah. And they're at pretty much any march. I thought it was a little bit like when we interviewed the pink lady who had led the protests outside the migrant hotel in Epping, that it was people trying to protest on behalf of their daughters, their granddaughters and civil society in general, that they wanted to uphold British values and that they wanted to fly the George flag and indeed the Union flag without accusations of bigotry and racism. I agree with all of that. I just want to say that when people marched against Gaza, the right did not say the vast majority were decent people. The right tended to say the vast majority and then were jihadis and were an example of this country fracturing.

16:56And I don't get the double standard. I actually went on the Gaza march as a journalist, not supporting it, but I went on it. I didn't go on the right-wing one. And I have to say, the vast majority of people at the Gaza march, I would describe as law-abiding family people who are there with their children.

17:09Camilla: Well, generalizations are best avoided when it comes to large groups of people. Yeah, absolutely. But I also thought it was quite interesting. There's been this attempt to make Tommy Robinson mainstream. And then he's at the march flanked by Katie Hopkins and Lawrence Fox. And the attempt to make him mainstream is coming from America. Yes. Not from this country. Who doesn't really understand British politics very well. It's America and social media that has brought this person back into public life, not the British media. That's what I find so strange. And then when they do have this giant march and when they do organize speakers, who do they wind up with?

17:47Katie Hopkins. And also on the march was Lawrence Fox. If this march is for anything and it comes down to Lawrence Fox, Katie Hopkins and Tommy Robinson, I just don't know what it's for. I don't know what it represents, except I hate to say it. but people trying to make a second career out of politics.

18:06Camilla: The thing is with Musk, he intervenes like so many Americans with no real understanding of British politics. He was speaking on the stage with Tommy Robinson and uttered the words, you must fight or you die. And obviously in some contexts, fighting could just mean politically, you're going to stand for office and get those votes, etc. In another context, it could mean inciting violence. And I think his clumsy language in that case is an argument for him staying away from what could be a very explosive situation. I had such a weird weekend on X because I'd written about Charlie Kirk and then I had written about how William should forgive Harry.

18:48Camilla: And I literally, the phrase of my mind was stuck in the middle with you. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. In response to the Charlie Kirk article, I was both too right-wing and not right-wing enough because I don't support Tommy Robinson. And then in regards to the William and Harry article, I was in the unique situation of having had trolling by Sussex fans for years, then got a load of abuse from William and Kate fans. Yes. And then I just concluded that social media was a sewer full of very, very strange and unnecessarily aggressive people. Yes. I did something nice at the weekend, though, in the midst of all this, and this is that I attended the last night of the proms.

19:30Oh, lovely.

19:31Camilla: And it was glorious and it was flag-waving in a good way. I love the dress. Oh, the dress of the soprano was fantastic. There was just amazing performances all round, including from Brian May and Roger Taylor re-enacting Bohemian Rhapsody with the orchestra. Bill Bailey turned up and played the typewriter song and then played the organ and was very, very funny. And Kemi Badenock was there. and let's just have a moment because on Saturday... Pray silence, please. Pray silence for Gemmy Badenock. On Saturday night, she was getting a lot of love. You've done so well at PMQs. All of your questioning on Peter Mandelson was absolutely superb, brilliant, going into a fresh week, all guns blazing, Labour are imploding.

20:14Camilla: We're going to get onto that later. And then today this happens and she has to, bless her, I think she was at a farm or an abattoir or something as her entire party is being butchered. A massacre going on behind her. There's a massacre going on. And this is how she addresses the Danny Kruger defection. Well, Danny has made his case very clear that this is not about me. I can't be distracted by that. And I'm not going to get blown off course by these sorts of incidents. I know that this is the sort of thing that is going to happen while a party is changing. I am making sure that people understand what conservative values are.

20:47It means living within our means. It means making sure that we are growing our economy. means not wasting money on things like net zero, which are bankrupting the country, not wasting money on welfare to the people who shouldn't get it at the same time as we're not able to give it to those who need to get it. That's what we're very focused on now. And what I need to do is make sure that the public understands what today's Conservative Party is about, not yesterday's Conservative Party. That's the best answer she could give. Yes. You acknowledge it, you regret it, you pivot on to talking about your policies.

21:17One reason why I was in a state of shock when Danny came out is partly because I felt Kemi had had a good week.

21:25Camilla: Yes. And you're right. The defection is cruel because it pops that balloon after her excellent performance at PMQs and having the scalp of Peter Mandelson. But also this is coming just a couple of weeks before Tory party conference. It could have been worse. He could have done this the day before Tory party conference. And don't you think it will happen again? What, somebody else between now and then? Absolutely. When are we going there? It's the first weekend in October, isn't it? This is the significance of Danny Kruger. If him, then anyone. And I can see reform just booking that ballroom every week for the next three months or so.

22:07Having a succession. Having a succession of people coming out just to eclipse Kemi. It's difficult for her to get a foothold in the news cycle.

22:17Camilla: Shall we finish on a funny note from Graham Pack, who listens to us daily? I love his emails. Every day they come in, they're always funny. Danny Kruger is against the assisted dying bill. With his defection, is he now trying to assist in killing off the Tories? OK, that one's morbid. It's morbid, but it's funny. I mean, I'm not sure if the death of the Conservatives is exaggerated, Tim. Similarly, I'm not sure whether Keir Starmer's days really are numbered with the arrival on the scene of Andy Burnham.

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24:45There is now a serious threat to Keir Starmer's leadership, and it comes from outside Parliament. It's the curious thing. Andy Burnham, former MP, now mayor for Greater Manchester, when you and I were young, we just thought he was a good pair of eyes.

25:01Camilla: Yes, the eyelashes. Beautiful eyes. What great eyes he has. I know, he could be in an ad, couldn't he? Couldn't he? He could be an eye model. He could be a mascara model. Yeah. He doesn't even need it. But yes, good-looking Andy Burnham. Former leadership contender, I never got a sense that there was an ideology about the man, that he was particularly of the left or of the right. Went away and ran Manchester. Not politically a hard task for a Labour candidate. One has to say that's one of the safest Labour areas in the country. Nonetheless, has developed a reputation as a good executive. Let's give him credit for that.

25:36Now is back on the scene as someone who wants, it seems, wants to get back into Parliament. as a tribune of the soft left, critical of welfare cuts, critical of the government's direction and economics. And he is now threatening to return. So obviously the context of all of this is the various defeats that Starmer and U-Term Starmer suffered before the summer recess. He had attempted reset, which went horribly wrong, the loss of Angela Rayner, the loss of Peter Mandelson, now a deputy leadership contest in which Andy Burnham said that the winner must be from the North, of course. It has to be from the North.

26:11You've got to have someone from the North.

26:12Camilla: Well, if it's Lucy Powell versus British Phillips, then it will be. Now, can I just tell you why he supports Lucy Powell? Why? Because Andy Burnham is very much into devolution when it comes to education. Right. He wants T levels in Manchester. He wants Manchester businesses to be able to say to Manchester schoolchildren, come with me, do an apprenticeship here, do this work placement there. Andy Burnham believes in education tailored to different geographical areas according to their employment needs. So when Bridget Philipson as Education Secretary brought in this sort of command and control, no, you will not have autonomy.

26:51Camilla: And she was meaning that to apply to academy schools run by Burblesing and others. She was meaning it as a massive two-fingered salute to Toby Young, Michael Gove and anyone else who happened to suggest that maybe teachers should run schools, not governments. He was very cross about that because he felt that that undermined his own agenda. Interesting. For having a lot more independence when it came to how education should be run. It's so interesting how devolution even has hurt Labour. It's not just the Tories have realised it's a mistake now. So that's why he's backing power. And you have this problem that some of the brightest stars of Labour are outside Parliament.

27:26Burnham and Sadiq Khan. I know we all loath. I know we all loath Sadiq Khan. He wasn't a bright star last week.

27:32Camilla: We didn't hear a thing from him as you and I were roller skating across town trying to record Daily Deans. But one of the big complaints against Labour is it entered office without any experience or understanding of how to make things work. And the point is these people have worked as executives, but they are outside Parliament. But now Burnham sees his opportunity and it seems is scouting around for someone to step down, have a by-election and he can replace them. One name that's mooted is Graham Stringer, for example, which is a Manchester-type seat, so he could probably get that quite easily.

28:02Camilla: He must be on defection watch, by the way, Stringer. Ardent Brexiteer. Yes. Speaks Nigel Farage's language. Yes. Probably doesn't like Stalmer very much. He was one of the people we thought might come out this morning instead of Danny Kruger. So Burnham is looking to make a comeback. What this all spells is, is Keir Stalmer going to survive? There's been a real change in the vibe of the parliamentary Labour Party in the last couple of weeks. It's gone from, we hate this, but we can get through this, and we're obviously all behind Starmer, to people now questioning, will he last the parliament?

28:32Will he get beyond May? People are thinking about a future without Keir Starmer, which is not a place that Keir Starmer wants to be.

28:40Camilla: Dreaming of a future without Keir Starmer in it. I don't know about this. I feel like he's quite hardy. He's quite a hardy type. Agreed. Indeed, wasn't he even named after Keir Hardie? And I think that we've got a long way to go. I think people are getting a little overexcited a lot of the time. Oh, my goodness. You know, the Tories are dead. Reform's definitely going to win. Keir Starmer's career is over. It could be rather exaggerated. I actually think Danny Kruger's done him a favour today because we're not talking about Peter Mandelson quite as much as we were or would have been today had this not happened.

29:17And also, whenever you're plotting a return to Parliament, you have various hurdles you have to cross, one of which is winning a by-election. And reform fancies a race against Andy Burnham. It thinks it might be able to beat him. And how embarrassing would that be if your attempted return to Parliament actually facilitated the election of what Labour people regard as a far-right MP?

29:41Camilla: Also, you know the other reason, and we've discussed this before, why Keir Starmer might be OK? The opposition isn't doing a good enough job. Yeah. So we had the situation where, I mean, I did interview Peter Carr, bless him, on Sunday and he almost needed to be carried away on a stretcher. Bless him, it wasn't... I mean, he got a really difficult... He got a hospital pass to have to do that broadcast round. Yeah, but you're the one who beat him up. I know, but legitimately so because the story is all over the place. You know, they knew on Tuesday, they're pretending they didn't. Yes. Kemi Badenot rushes headlong into this by posting on X that basically the Prime Minister has lied to the House, they had the information that they said they didn't have on the Wednesday, He backed Peter Mandelson only for Stephen Doughty to tell the House on Thursday.

30:26Camilla: Additional information has come to light. Well, it can't have because we all knew on Tuesday what they claim to not know. Kevin Badenock is talking about him lying to the Commons. That means that he's misled Parliament. That is a resignation offence. Well, Starmer has spoken today and has kept to the line that procedure was followed at all times. Peter Mandelson, before he was appointed, went through a due diligence process. That's the propriety and ethics team went through a process. And therefore, I knew of his association with Epstein. But had I known then what I know now, I'd have never appointed him.

31:05Because what emerged last week were emails, Bloomberg emails, which showed that the nature and extent of the relationship that Peter Mandelson had with Epstein was far different to what I had understood to be the position when I appointed him. On top of that, what the email showed was he was not only questioning but wanting to challenge the conviction of Epstein at the time. That, for me, went and cut across the whole approach that I've taken on violence against women and girls for many years and this government's approach. On top of that, what emerged last week, on Wednesday evening late, were Peter Maddelson's responses to questions that had been put to him by government officials.

31:59I looked at those responses and I did not find them at all satisfied. I took the decision to remove him.

32:07Camilla: And yet when I asked the very lovely, admittedly, Shadow Education Secretary Laura Trott on the show, right, so you're calling for his resignation, she then prevaricates. Oh, well, I'm not sure if we're actually calling for his resignation. Well, what are you calling for? The left are so much better at opposing and attacking the enemy than the right are. So she's there playing Queensbury rules. Oh, well, maybe we need to follow procedure. I'm going, you're sounding like Keir Starmer now. Either you do think he's lied to the House and therefore he must go. You know, if this was Boris Johnson or anyone else, we would be having people on the airwaves every five minutes calling for him to resign.

32:47Camilla: We haven't even had that from the leader of the party. Well, Kemi was good on Mandelson, in part because it was a procedural breach. It was a legalistic type debate. Yes, he was hoist by his own petard there. She was less good on Angela Rayner, I think, because it was murkier, because there was a disabled child involved, because details were still coming out, etc. Members of her party have complained that she lacks the killer instinct, the willingness to just go for it. I think she's got it inside her. I think there are too many cautious people around her. And I think that caution isn't completely misplaced because they're trying to sound more sensible than the form.

33:27Camilla: They're trying to, ironically, channel their inner Danny Kruger and not go off on one and make measured remarks that speak to competence. Yes, and that might work for them in the long run. Kemi's message is this is going to be about the economy. It's always about the economy. And by the time the election comes around, who is going to be the party that people trust on that? Is it going to be reform which has pulled policies out of the hat or is it going to be the Tories who have doggedly said live within your means for all those years? That's the gamble she's taking. When I was last night at the proms, have I mentioned that I went to last night at the proms to, a lovely man called Frank was talking to somebody else saying, oh, well, I saw this podcast.

34:07Camilla: He's an American. You're better at accents than I am. I saw this podcast and Michael Gove was on it. And then he was speaking and he turned to me and went, oh, my God, you were the one who interviewed Michael Gove. That was a great podcast. And I said, oh, thank you, Frank. And what I thought was interesting about our Michael Gove interview is how much reaction we've got to it. I mean, people do have an opinion and they are not afraid to voice it. Tim. So we heard from Annalise Colwell, who listens to us regularly. Dear Camilla and Tim, I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the podcast with Michael Gove.

34:38Camilla: Do listen to it if you haven't already. It was Friday's episode. I'm afraid I haven't always thought of him favourably and would have to admit that I have been guilty of listening to negative press without really questioning something I'm not proud of, but it's actually nice to have been wrong. It was fascinating to hear the man rather than the politician. Although you and I felt that he held back a bit and was still in politician mode when he should have just been in normal person mode. I think so, yes. The answers were still very carefully calibrated and sometimes he would take quite a few minutes to say really nothing at all.

35:10And you can get the answers from his ex-wife's biography instead. Yes, exactly.

35:15Camilla: If in doubt, always listen to the wife. But what he's a joy to listen to is talking about culture and philosophy and history and things like that. But I still think there are parts of himself he doesn't wish to share. I suppose why should he? But then Simon Brown drew an interesting parallel to bring this whole conversation full circle. He says, dear excellent podcasters, just stop there, dear excellent podcasters, Michael Gove, the worst prime minister we never had. He makes Peter Mannerson look like the prince of Dungeness. Kind regards and keep up the great work, Simon. I mean I think we can both agree that there is a parallel between the political operations in the past of both Gove and Mandelson but Gove has managed to emerge all the better for it and Mandelson has managed to emerge all the worst I think dark arts almost never work in a democratic system and maybe there's a lot of stuff that's done behind the scenes that works so well that you and I don't notice it.

36:15But if you think about the number of really clever people and Alastair Campbell, Peter Mandelson, Michael Goe, who have fallen on the sword they pulled out for others, it makes you think maybe it's better just to be totally straight.

36:30Camilla: Maybe it's better to be Danny Kruger. Yeah, who I can't imagine has pulled a trick on anyone ever. We'll be back pulling more tricks tomorrow, 5pm.

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