Epsom protests: Silence of police is eroding trust

0:02The Telegraph.

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2:18Camilla: Epsom residents are demanding answers from police after an alleged gang rape in the town. Why are Surrey police allowing unrest to spring up in the face of an information vacuum? We speak to sexual abuse whistleblower and retired Rosa, Maggie Oliver. And Catholics are turning against Trump over his very public spat with the Pope and that AI-generated image depicting the president as actual Jesus. As I am a Catholic, I say it's up to Trump to decide how to run the country he was elected to lead, and that's what Catholic doctrine says too, but the morality is the Holy Fathers. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomeny.

2:55And me, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

3:07Camilla: Jacob, lovely to be back with you in The Daily Tea studio. we are going on the road, aren't we? We're going on the road with this podcast even though petrol prices are at an all-time high we're going to get in our cars and we're going to be driving to, well, not too far on day one of the roadshow because we're going to be in London on Monday the 27th of April going to have a right ding-dong between left and right, which will be fun details to be announced very shortly Tuesday we're going to Cardiff Wednesday we're going to be with you in Warwick That's the day I'm joining you, it's Wednesday the others, it's you and Tim and as Tim is joining us on the Wednesday as well, isn't he?

3:40Yes. So it's the full thing.

3:41Camilla: Oh, it's the full, damn it. It's the real deal. I've been the sort of skimmed milk this week, so I'm glad we're back to the sort of Jersey cream. How dare you? You are the cream that rises to the top, sir. And then on the Thursday, we're going to be in sunny Worthing having a royal special, which will be a great delight because we've got two great commentators then. So that is the week of the 27th, and please do get tickets. The link is in the description to this show and can be found everywhere on the Telegraph website. I think there are lots of photographs of mine and Tim's massive faces in the actual paper, which is always disturbing.

4:15No, it improves the look of the paper. There should be more of them.

4:18Camilla: That's very, very kind. Now, speaking of the paper and indeed the website, the story that is gaining the most traction today is this extremely disturbing situation in Epsom. Jacob, you'll have seen some of the videos. It's actually reminiscent, I think, of Shades of Southport, although it hasn't got that aggressive yet, thank goodness, and shades of Epping, where members of the public have taken to the streets in protest at what they claim is a lack of information forthcoming from police about an alleged gang rape that has taken place at the weekend. So what we know so far is that a woman in her 20s was assaulted outside a church in Epsom after leaving a nearby nightclub in the early hours of Saturday.

5:03Camilla: This is near the Epson Methodist Church, shortly after she left the Labyrinth nightclub between roughly 2 and 4am. Crucially, the suspects have not been identified and the police are saying they currently don't have enough information to release descriptions. But as was the case in Southport and then in Epping, we've got protesters agitating to know the nationality. I think the suggestion being, you know, if these are illegal migrants that have set up shop in Epsom, we deserve to know. We must caveat this entire conversation by saying there is no evidence so far that they're from overseas. They could be local men.

5:44Camilla: We simply do not know. But what's interesting for our discussion today is why we keep on seeing respectable, and we'll get on to the disrespectful members of this protest, but respectable members of communities in leafy towns like Epsom taking to the streets, demanding information from the police. Why is this happening? It's a very good question. And why also they faced immediately with riot police when people who go and rob shops in Clapham find almost nobody there to do anything about it. It does seem as if there's a difference in response from certain police forces. You slightly wonder whether Surrey, never having had a riot before, feels it's got to get its equipment out.

6:24Camilla: I'm going to read out the entire police statement. This is from Surrey Police. It says it is still working to identify the identities of those suspected of having carried out the attack. A spokesman said at this early stage we do not have full descriptions of any potential suspects. We will release further details once we have them. The victim is being supported by a specialist sexual offences liaison officer who is helping her through the process at her own pace. I think there is a real problem, deep problem in British society at the moment, and that is the complete collapse in trust in official bodies.

7:00Yes. All of them. It's got an interesting history. I think you really need to take it back to Mandelson, Campbell and Blair. The whole spin operation that you get in the late 90s and on through, where people stop telling the truth and tell things in a way that gives them a favourable outlook. And they then get bound in by political correctness. And now I'm afraid nobody trusts a word officials say.

7:26Camilla: Well, hang on, be a bit more specific about that. If you're going to lay the blame at Blairite's door, do you mean dodgy dossiers? I mean, dodgy dossiers. I mean, I think the most important one was the dodgy dossier that a prime minister, when taking the country to war, did so on false information and used... I only say that just for balance. You know, the Tories had their fair share of sleaze scandals back in the 90s. That's actually rather different. OK. Yeah, MPs did things that they shouldn't. They took cash for questions. They had affairs. Some of them had several mistresses all at the same time.

7:58But they didn't routinely mislead. Whereas spin became a routine misleading and we went to war on a lie. Yes. And whether the war was justified or not is a different question. but we were told there was secret service information that said there were weapons of mass destruction and there weren't. And that, I think, shattered people's confidence in the establishment's honesty. And then you get grooming gangs, you get Riddick Barner, you get cocaine, you get any number of instances when nervousness about race has meant that the truth hasn't been told or action hasn't been taken. So when the police refuse to give out a name, or not a name, an identifier of any kind for suspects, people assume it's for politically correct reasons.

8:50And they then think of Liverpool, where the man who drove into a crowd was identified immediately, who was a white man, and you think, oh, is this their way of operating? Now, to be fair to the Surrey police, we have no idea whether this is the position today or not. But you read out the statement, and the statement's interesting because it's couched in political terminology that leaves things open to question, doesn't it? It says we don't have full identification at the moment. Very interesting. But what does full mean? We don't have a photograph. We don't know whether the people are 6 '1 or 6 '2.

9:33And once you say full, you're leaving it open to doubt that they have some information that they could give out, but they're choosing not to. And it seems very odd that they're not saying to the public, so far, we think a number of men were involved. This is a broad description of them, at least some idea of who was seen in the area in the previous hour or two. People that they think may be of interest. That's what the police normally do.

10:05Camilla: Yes. And they've changed their tack, haven't they? Because since Southport, the police actually came out and said, look, we understand the need to not allow a vacuum to be filled with conspiracy theories and inaccuracies on social media. And with that in mind, we need to be more transparent. We need to be cognizant of public safety, not least in the aftermath of those appalling riots. and therefore police forces said that they would share suspects' ethnicity and nationality with the public as soon as they could. Yes, and they may not know those at this stage. No. But they may have some idea of height and build and those sorts of things or of people acting suspiciously in the area early on.

10:52Camilla: I mean, I'm going to constantly be devil's advocate because, you know, it's an occupational hazard. If you've got people marauding in the streets, you might be worried about vigilantism. You might be worried about, I mean, if these people are locals. I do think the police have got an increasingly difficult job to do. I talk about social media and people, you know, we have to obey at the Telegraph very strict legal guidelines around contempting future investigations and indeed trials. Of course, people on social media just publish with impunity. Not true. Not true. I'm sorry to disagree with you so directly.

11:25Anyone putting anything on social media is bound by the subjudice laws.

11:29Camilla: I know they are, but they are able to get away with much more than journalists. Well, up to a point, there have been prosecutions, and people who've identified rape victims and things like that have been holed up for contempt of court, and quite rightly so. But it's a bit, what I'm saying is, it is the Wild West compared with how regulated and legally obedient actual mainstream media organisations have to be. That is true, but that's fair enough because, Camilla, whenever you write anything, millions of people around the world to pay attention. Or maybe just my dad, actually. When Mr. Jones tweets something, it's seen by Mrs.

12:09Jones and three others. So there's a difference in scale.

12:11Camilla: A very, very unfollowed person can get mass duplication of incorrect information. That is true, but it doesn't have any authority in the way that something you would say does. And yes, you are right that someone like The Telegraph has IPSO breathing down its neck, which seems to me to be an anti-free speech body. Well, it's the independent press standards organisation. Organisation that doesn't like you saying things that are true and has made you print corrections twice. To be fair, I am an adherent to the code of practice and I have to be trained in it seemingly every three minutes. So, OK, but that aside, all I'm making the point is police have got an increasingly difficult job.

12:48Camilla: They're policing social media and have been criticised for over-policing it in comparison to the actual streets. Fine, the whole argument about stop policing our tweets, start policing our streets, one point. Second of all, they've constantly got people recording footage and they're also being accused of two-tier policing. Now, I get your point about why do riot police suddenly appear in Epsom when if there are pro-Palestinian marches you don't necessarily have it. Although I've seen riot police at pro-Palestinian marches. I would humbly suggest that if you've got a load of actually largely really kind of G'd up middle-aged men who may or may not in part be linked to Tommy Robinson throwing their weight around in Epsom High Street, you actually probably do want to get some police in who have got all of the gear.

13:33We never used to have this actually. This is all fairly modern that we have police in lots of riot gear. We used to have police linking arms and walking forward wearing their proper helmets and that seemed to enforce law and order pretty effectively. The public was probably more

13:47Camilla: obedient back then. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think that in a funny way, I think the more aggressive you make the police look, the more aggressive you make the people dealing with them. Yeah. And so I'm not sure that it, look, I'm not an expert in this type of policing. The police have to maintain law and order. Yes. It just doesn't look very good when the police are all out in riot kit, when it's defending their own conduct. Yes. And yet when people are raiding stores, yes, they don't seem to be doing an awful. They're standing back when a group of youths is going into the sports director in Clapham and taking everything that they can find, looting.

14:20How many riot police were there then?

14:22Camilla: Not enough. So, and then you're criticising the police and we've got loads of riot police come out. Yeah. It raises questions, but I also do want to go to the Leveson point because 20 years ago, before Leveson had happened, journalists were able to speak to the police and the police were able to say, look, I can't tell you formally, but these people are probably this. So we didn't go down the wrong rabbit hole. Absolutely. And then your reporting could imply that. It wouldn't quote them directly, but it would say sources close to the police indicate that it was four white youths who did this, or it was asylum seekers, or it was whoever it was.

15:04Camilla: Yes. Because of Leveson, the police are too frightened to give those type of briefings. and they are an essential oil to the system. Think of our relationship when I was an MP and when I was a minister, that I was able to talk to you about things and things that were going on on an unattributable basis to ensure that the government's view was put across but sometimes not put across too aggressively and to explain things without the risk of something being taken out of context or whatever. And that oils the wheels. Off the record briefing is absolutely tantamount to good investigative journalism.

15:41Camilla: There's no doubt about it. I mean, I remember back when I was on the Hemel Hempstead Gazette, these two detectives, the cop shop was opposite the newspaper office, and I'd often go in there and it was a bit like going into the set of The Sweeney. They used to brief me like, I'm actually going to stand up to this, they actually used to brief me like this, like proper coppers, and I'd be there with my notebook going, good grief, this is extraordinary. They were great people, wore quite a lot of cologne, but I'm not going to hold that against them. And you would get the inside scoop, but also they would give you information to flush out suspects.

16:13Camilla: And we even had a court list in the local paper listing everyone that had appeared in the local mags, you know, be it driving while disqualified, driving under the influence. You look out for the odd celebrity name who happened to have been caught on the M1 in Hemel Hempstead, whatever. I agree, relations have broken down, but I think they have, according to our own crime editor, Martin Evans, who I've been speaking to recently about different stories. I think things have improved because it has been pointed out that the pendulum swung far too far and police thought that even having a conversation with a journalist was going to result in them being imprisoned.

16:48But it is this breakdown of trust, that's the fundamental thing. Yes, no, I know. And if Surrey Police is absolutely right and they have no information at the moment and the poor lady who's been so brutally attracted is not in a position to tell them anything, then they've done absolutely nothing wrong. And yet they are getting it in the neck and they're finding mass protests are taking place because of the failings of lots of other bodies over 20, 25, 30 years.

17:13Camilla: Before we speak to former police officer Maggie Oliver, who knows her onions, particularly when it comes to this alleged offence, a quick word on the Tommy Robinson aspect, if there is one. The Telegraph is reporting that associates of Robinson have appeared at this protest. It is an opportunity, isn't it, for the rabble rousers. Now, I appreciate, whenever we mention Robinson, there's going to be a load of comments on the video saying, oh, I understand that this man has been campaigning on these issues for a long time. Equally, he's been in his own trouble with the police and has been in trouble over contempt.

17:50Camilla: So I'm not sure he's the bastion of all this, but... Well, not only for contempt, because contempt, his defenders say, are free speech issues. He's also been in trouble over mortgage fraud. So he has a criminal record for serious financial crime, not simply for saying things that people don't like. And I think it's important to remind our listeners of that. There is a caucus of support for him among people who feel that the authorities, as you say, to go full circle on your first comment on this, are lying to them. And they have a right to protest as much as anybody. I think we should take this very seriously.

18:31I'm very worried about this breakdown of trust and the anger that there is amongst the British public feeling that they voted Conservative and we marked it up. They voted Labour and there's been no change. They are now looking at reform and the Greens. They're looking at moving to the further edges of politics. I think reform is absolutely within normal party political stuff. I think the Greens are bonkers. Tommy Robinson is then the next step. and we have got at the next election that's why I want to unite the right to have a united right that can actually do things can try and restore confidence and can govern according to what it's promised to do because there's a huge feeling that people like me politicians promise things and then just don't do them and they also think that we never intended to do them in the first place which is something I would try to defend but this isn't the occasion to and that utter corrosion of trust is pushing people to extremes feeling that somebody like Tommy Robinson might actually do it.

19:28And I think he's a rather dangerous man and that we need to restore trust to have genuine, normal, run-of-the-mill politicians delivering on what they promised to do.

19:38Camilla: OK, so that's the political aspect. Let's look now at the policing aspect. Joining us now is Maggie Oliver, former Detective Constable for Greater Manchester Police, who, of course, blew the whistle on the grooming gang scandal and the subsequent cover-up. Maggie, lovely to see you again on The Daily Tea. Thank you for joining us. Jacob and I have just been talking through some of the issues that have arisen since this horrific incident in Epsom. And let's just start by saying, if this has happened to a young woman, I mean, it's the most appalling crime. And regardless of people protesting or not, obviously our thoughts are with her as she tries to work her way through this.

20:18Camilla: What's been happening, though? I almost want you to put your former coppers hat on. we're getting into this situation where it seems as if the public is increasingly wanting to take events into their own hands there seems to be a mistrust of the police we've witnessed this in southport in the aftermath of those horrendous murders we witnessed it in epping mums and dads and grandparents taking to the streets not thinking their daughters and female relatives were safe Now in leafy Epsom, people taking to the streets, demanding more information from the police. What's your analysis of these events?

20:57I mean, I am a former police officer, you know, so I am fully aware of the dangers around giving out misinformation when we don't know the full facts. But what I see here is really a consequence of secrecy and lack of communication in previous cases. So, you know, you mentioned Southport. We've just had Nottingham. We had the arena bombings. And I think there's been a breakdown in trust between the public and the police. And I think a lot of this could have been avoided had there been at least a press conference where there was a transparency and a conversation around the circumstances and an explanation.

21:42may be that this victim of this horrendous assault has been severely traumatized. She may not yet be in a position to properly be able to describe her offenders. I don't even know, is she in hospital? Has she suffered physical injuries? But what I know from my background and my experiences is that when there is a lack of information, we have a vacuum and people jump into that vacuum and speculate and there is fear within that community and they want some answers now those answers might not yet be available but what we do need is a conversation we had a similar set of circumstances with that lady who um disappeared didn't we was it last year yeah nicola billy nicola billy and it was the same thing again And, you know, silence suggests there is something to cover up.

22:39And for me, I think what the community is asking for is a conversation, some openness, because there will be fear in that community. The women who are walking around there will wonder where are these perpetrators? Are they walking the streets? What is being done? And unfortunately, because we as a country, I think we've seen a breakdown in trust in policing, in the authorities. This won't go away unless there are some answers. We may not get all the answers we want right now, but silence is dangerous to me. What's happened to what one remembers from years gone by of the police coming out and saying we're appealing for information.

23:22so far we think we're looking for a man who's seven foot two and has a three inch long nose or whatever it is we're not getting even that appeal for information in a public way the police said to the protesters that they didn't have a full picture yet but they haven't had one of those dry press conferences as far as i'm aware where they've set out what they do know what they don't know and asked the public to help put out an early photo pic, whatever it is, just to try and bring the public on side. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree fully. You know, the silence is fuelling the suspicion, and this is really exactly what we saw in Southport.

24:03And there is no reason not to have that press conference, in my opinion. I mean, I worked in the major incident team, and every case that exploded, there was an initial press conference that would give as much information as you could. I actually find it really hard to believe that they don't have some information about the perpetrators. And I think that the suspicion and the fear within the community is that once again, we are hiding the information that they do have for fear of being accused, you know, because of the racial elements of what is going on. Now, we don't know who these suspects are, But the fear within that community will be that something is being held back, that they feel they need to know.

24:51That's what I believe.

24:52Camilla: The counter argument would be this one, Maggie. You're in the police, you're knee deep in a very serious investigation. You've got a victim who potentially could be so traumatised, they can't actually articulate what has happened or remember anything. then they will be perhaps arguing, look, we're not here to give a running commentary. We are here to investigate, to find evidence and piece together exactly what has gone on on that night in Epsom. And I think that's a cogent argument. But what's changed since when I first started reporting on crime back in the early noughties and now is social media.

25:35Camilla: So that luxury of the police just being able to get on with their jobs is now virtually impossible because of online speculation. And by the way, we do need to talk about a bit of political exploitation here, too, because at the protests in Epsom, we've seen some Tommy Robinson elements who are there to just stir up trouble, to say somebody's hiding something. and, of course, to give it a racial element when, as you've rightly said, Maggie, we have no idea of the background, the ethnicity, the colour, the nationality of these perpetrators. So I think the police are having to deal with shifting sand situation where, I mean, we've even had in the past politicians putting their oar in and suggesting, particularly about Southport, that the killer was somebody who actually wasn't.

26:26Camilla: So you've got to feel sorry for the police in this a bit, Jacob. Up to point, Lord Copper, because the police seem to have created this for themselves, because when a white man drove into a crowd in Liverpool, they told us he was a white man immediately. But then they knew that because there were multiple, multiple witnesses. They knew who Riddicka Bajana was, too, immediately, and they wouldn't tell us. He was 17, though, and I think that made things problematic. They could still have told us who he was. They couldn't name him, but they could have identified him. And I think Camilla's right that the breakdown of trust is very important.

26:58and she's absolutely right that people are using this for political purposes. But the police are part of this problem in the breakdown of trust because of things like the grooming scandals and indeed Rudika Bayana, the headmistress, being told, don't profile him as a black boy with a knife.

27:17Camilla: Yes. And that's stopping investigations. There's a feeling that as soon as anything has a racial context to it, which we have no idea whether this does or not, everyone backs off. and therefore people in Epsom, very respectable people, have lost confidence in the authorities. I would agree very much with what you just said there, Jacob. And, you know, even if I go back into my own personal background, you know, I was aware of grooming gangs, rape gangs in 2004 and 2005 and I worked on a case that was closed down with 97 child abusers. The official reasoning then was that they would not put resources in.

27:58But we, as a country now, we have seen thousands and thousands of children, you know, sacrificed on the altar of political correctness because nobody would grasp that nettle. And so they abandoned children because they didn't want to open that can of worms. And what happened is that the trust in the establishment has fallen apart, actually, because we have seen silence being used to protect the perpetrators. And whether it's the truth in this case or not, I don't know yet. But that suspicion and that fear is what is driving the community to demand some answers. And I think they're entitled to ask for some answers because those perpetrators are still out.

28:44And, you know, back in the day or in most of the cases that I'm aware of, you would always have a press conference where you would open up a dialogue with the community. You would share the information you have got and you would explain as a grown adult why you can't share more. And I think that that would dampen down the anger and the fear and the protest. But what we're seeing is complete silence. Should we put any blame on Brian Leveson and his report that has made relations with the press and the police so difficult? I think that there is a middle ground, but I don't think you can have no communication between, you know, the police serve the public.

29:23They are there to protect, to serve and protect. And there is a community there that is frightened. They've had a horrendous sexual abuse incident for this poor woman, and we don't know how she is yet. But for me, the police have a duty to keep the public informed. And that isn't necessarily from somebody giving you a bit of a story on the QT. It's actually having a transparent, open conversation that is honest and trusting that to responsible journalists, to communicate that to the public. what we've had here is a complete vacuum of information and really it reminds people of the vacuum we've had for 20 years about a crime that destroyed so many lives and right or wrong that that lack of trust that fear that will not go away without some form of communication they will have to at some point give out some information but you know the recent cases have meant that it's been so slowly divulged that social media has jumped in in the vacuum and filled it with speculation.

30:30Take away the speculation, be transparent and honest and trust people to then wait for the full facts which will come out in time.

30:40Camilla: Maggie Oliver, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea. We always get good sense when we have somebody called Maggie on. It's always true. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jacob. Thank you. Coming up next, the Pope versus POTUS. Who wins?

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33:04Camilla: Jacob, what I've quite enjoyed as a less practicing Catholic than you, although born and raised one, is Pope Leo's very measured reaction to Trump's criticisms. And it's just enjoyable because it's the first time that we've had an American accented pope. And therefore to hear him reacting to, at the end of the day, his own countrymen, his own fellow American is quite intriguing. I just wanted to ask you, as somebody who is very religious, what you make of the US president depicting himself as Christ and giving him this kind of self-styled godlike figure. I mean, it's a sign of madness, isn't it, to think that you are the second coming?

33:46Well, I think these relationships between leaders and popes have been difficult for centuries. Actually, before I came in this morning, I started writing a piece for Substack on exactly this issue. And I've just got beyond the 14th century. So, 1302.

34:02Camilla: Story of your life, isn't it? I know. 1302, Unum Sanctum, Boniface VIII, writes the papal bull, wrote the papal bull that was the highest point of papal claims to all power. What did he say? He said, basically, there's no salvation outside the church. Anyone who defies the pope is defying God's will. Therefore, any temporal authority who doesn't do what I say is damned. Wow. Philip IV, Philip the Fair of France, doesn't like this, gets his friends, gets some mercenaries to attack the pope in the town that he's then in, holds the pope prisoner for three days without food or water. The Pope dies just over a month later.

34:40Unum sanctum, that high claim of papal authority, never worked. So the division between the spiritual and temporal is not decided in fame of papacy in the 14th century. And they've been writing about this for hundreds of years before. Periodically papes win, periodically hailey Roman emperors win. You then fast forward to the Reformation and you get the wars relating to religion. And you get the Peace of Augsburg, which is in the 1550s, curus regio, aeus religio, to him the region, of him the religion. You get temporal authority taking the religious authority too and saying, as we did in England, that the state religion is the religion of the king or the queen as obviously it became with Elizabeth I.

35:25That's confirmed 1648 by the Treaty of Westphalia, which you and I often quote in relation to states' rights. Now, this doesn't work either, because although the state tries to enforce its religion, ultimately that fails. People lose the determination to do it. They're no longer willing to persecute. And you get the state saying, OK, we're not going to tell people what religion to have. So these rows have gone on over hundreds and hundreds of years. and this is just reincarnation of it. What is the Holy Father saying? The Holy Father is saying he's not in favour of war. Not a very controversial thing for a Pope to say.

36:02No, surprise, surprise.

36:03Camilla: You could say in reaction, does the Pope have a balcony? Quite, quite. And Donald Trump is saying, well, that's up to me, not you. This is exactly what Popes and Haley Ramon emperors have been arguing about. Who ultimately decides? And I'll tell you who decides. The President decides to fire the gun and the Pope decides whether the firing of the gun is moral. Yes. That's where the authority lies. And if you fire the gun and it is immoral, then you risk your immortal soul. Yes, but in a different firing of the gun, this friendly fire, because he should be pointing, I know what you're saying about firing the gun as in starting the war, but what he's doing is he's taking aim at the Pope, the Holy Father, which is a strange thing to do when you are quite reliant on Christian votes, both Catholic and non-Catholic, right?

36:52But the Emperor Charles V had the sack of Rome and the Pope had to flee and then was this Pope Clement, isn't it, who's basically locked up by Charles V and the Emperor Charles V is extraordinarily pious and retires to a monastery. These rows have endless historic context and so that's why I'm not that fussed about it.

37:16Camilla: Well, apparently American Catholics are a bit fussed. They voted for Trump by 59 % to Harris's 39 % in 2024. But according to latest polling, they are increasingly turning against the president. I mean, Catholics don't like non-Catholics pretending to be Jesus Christ, do they? Temporal rulers should remember that if they offend the spiritual side, the spiritual side may not support them in a temporal sense. So although popes and presidents and Haley Remnant Emperors arguing is nothing new, in a democratic age that has consequences for the temporal authority and that they will lose support. And Trump is ultimately a politician and he took down the tweet of a picture of him, an AI picture of him as Christ.

38:05Camilla: When he pretended he thought it was him as a doctor. Which wasn't the most credible explanation. But Trump does this. I mean, Trump always goes too far. That is how he behaves. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to us. And it's no different from how he has always behaved. But it was Harold Macmillan who said you should never take on the Catholic Church, the Brigade of Guards or the National Minors Union. And the Catholic Church is an institution that survived over 2 ,000 years. Yes. The Pope is for life. The president is gone in turn a bit years. Yes. And I hope Leo, God willing, will still be there in the not-too-distant future when Donald Trump is in happy retirement.

38:42Camilla: But I'm intrigued as to how you now view Donald Trump. You're obviously a righty. You obviously preferred him over Harris and indeed Biden. But he's rather unholy in his approach. I mean, for instance, the Truth Social post, I know how much you detest swearing because every time I'm potty-mouthed, you wince in disgust. And I'm potty-mouthed fairly often. open the effing straights, you crazy bees. I mean, it's thoroughly unstatesmanlike. This isn't the behaviour that Jacob Weissmog condones. No, but then Donald Trump isn't Palmerston. It's not even Palmerston the cat, is he? Let's be honest. This is how Donald Trump behaves.

39:24If I were one of his advisers, would I say he should tweet in this way? No, of course I wouldn't. Does it appeal to me as an English conservative? No, of course it doesn't. But he's not appealing to me. I'm not one of his voters. He's appealing...

39:37Camilla: I know, but doesn't it give you the willies as a righty who... You see, I'm not too engaged with the idea of a global right. Right. Because I believe in states' rights, the importance of the nation state, I think our politics is relatively separate from what's going on in America. I think British politicians who get obsessed with foreign politics make a mistake. I think Keir Starmer should stay at home more, for example, because there are no votes in foreign policy. And so the British electorate is always a little bit supercilious towards American presidents. They were to George Bush Jr. They were to Ronald Reagan.

40:12There is a history of thinking American presidents are a bit gauche.

40:17Camilla: OK, but you're of very sound mind, I would say. I mean, you're not perfect, obviously, but you seem to have most of your marbles rolling around in a fairly coherent manner. Do you think he's becoming increasingly deranged? No, I don't think there's any difference. I think it's exactly the same as it always has been. I think the problem with Donald Trump's tweets, and this goes back to when he was first running for election. Well, he's tweeting through the night, by the way. He's doing tweets at like 4 or 5 a.m. What's he doing? He always has. And before I knew that Donald Trump was teetotal, I thought they must be the ravings of somebody who's been at the sherry.

40:51But he doesn't drink. What's his excuse? He clearly gets a little bit tired and sometimes can't spell. Tired and emotional. But not emotional. Well, no. That's the interesting thing. He does this sober. And I think it's all part of his political shtick that he wants to appeal to American voters in this way.

41:10Camilla: Hang on a minute. Breaking. I'm being told by our producers there's a new line on the Pope. Oh, yes. Let me read it out. Hang on a minute. Oh, hello. Pope attacks tyrants spending billions on killing and devastation after Trump criticism. The Pope has hit out at leaders who spend billions on wars and said the world is being, quote, ravaged by a handful of tyrants. I mean, he could be pointing the finger at the Ayatollah there, as well as anyone else. I'm not sure if I like this papal interference now. This is becoming a bit like Welby. Listen, mate, just stick to giving sermons. I'm not sure we need you diving into politics every five minutes.

41:48War is a moral issue, and the paper's entitled to say that, but the authority of deciding to go to war is a temporal one.

41:56Camilla: One more question. You've been up close and personal with a charismatic leader. Does something happen when people get into power that might send them slightly barmy? I mean, I'm referring to Boris. Yes, not to Boris. No, Boris remained exactly the same throughout. But it can happen, can't it? It does happen to people, yes. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely. I think the difficulty for all political leaders is that they lose the people around them who tell them that they're wrong because you can only do that if you've known somebody quite a long time. And the people you've known a long time retire, die, you get fed up with them, they get fired, and you get new people in who are completely dependent for their careers on your goodwill.

42:40So you just have them sitting there saying you're marvellous. And that becomes very difficult for all leaders.

42:47Camilla: Our time together has come to an end for now. It's been a very jolly week. Thank you very much. Wonderful. We will see you in Warwick. You're off now to get a meal deal from Sainsbury's, I believe. No, I'm not, actually. I'm going to the beefsteak for lunch today. Are you? Have you ever got a meal deal from Sainsbury's? Not from Sainsbury's. I don't like meal deals because they try and give you a soft drink, and I don't want a soft drink. Well, you can have water. I don't want to have bottled water of that kind of... Or a smoothie. Oh, disgusting. I have one of those on GB News, the most revolting things.

43:15An energy drink. And I don't like cups of coffee in paper cups. I think they're horrid. So I don't really want a meal deal. I'll tell you what I like. I will tell you exactly what I like. Which I got most days during the election campaign. A sandwich from Gregg's, but more importantly, they do the most delicious chocolate eclairs.

43:31Camilla: What sandwich did you get from Gregg's? I often had a ham sandwich or cheese sandwich, something like that. It's plain as I could find. If you were to have a sausage roll, would you go full sausage or vegan? If I were having a sausage roll, I'd have a homemade one. Thank you very much. Who home makes the sausage rolls? In Somerset we have homemade sausage rolls. I don't like shop ones. Why haven't you just told me this? Bring in a sausage roll next time, please. I'd have to bring them up from Somerset. Well, that's fine. We could give you equipment to eat them all. But I'm afraid I don't like shock puns.

43:56Camilla: We look forward to seeing you in Warwick, where you're going to take on some students, socialist or otherwise. Have a great weekend. And then tomorrow, we've got a right royal treat in store because Hannah Furness and I, so Hannah is the royal editor of this newspaper, interview Robert Hardman about his latest book on the Queen, the late Queen, Queen Elizabeth II. and as you would expect, there are a great many revelations about her, Prince Andrew and, of course, our old friends, Harry and Meghan. 5pm.

44:47Thank you.