‘Farage didn’t know’: Reform rebel blames Zia Yusuf for suspension

0:03Tim Montgomerie: The Telegraph.

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1:20Tim Montgomerie: He's just been suspended by reform for his constructive criticism of his own party. On today's Daily Tea, we are joined by the rebel reformer Tim Montgomery. And to Camilla and Tim, I'll be explaining why I will be fighting this suspension every single step of the way. I messaged Nigel and said, did he know? I'm not going to say everything that has happened in correspondence, but Nigel said he did not know about the suspension. So it was taken by Reform HQ, whatever Reform HQ might mean. I believe Nigel.

2:04Tim Montgomerie: Tim, there's something uniquely special about Daily Tears. They send us yellow teapots, they send us tea cozies, they send us jam. They sometimes send us a little bit of abuse. but more often than not. That's homemade too. That's homemade. That's homebrewed. But we've received something truly touching. It's a Mr. and Mrs. Daily Tea card in the vein of Roger Hargreaves of Mr. Men. I love it. And Little Miss fame. And a little dog too. Look, there's Bertie. You've got a Daily Tea mug. Look at you. You've even got a little bit of stubble there with your tortoise shell glasses. That's a wake-up call.

2:41Tim Montgomerie: Good to see you in a tie at laugh. I know. I like it, but I look a little mums-y. Oh, no. The green high heels. No. I'm not sure that's necessary. You're holding a mark that says tea and truth. Tea and truth with a floral dress on. That's fantastic. Thank you. I'm going to read it out because this is, you know, maybe we are making a difference to people's lives. Who knows? I mean, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. But dear Tim and Camilla, I hope this card makes you smile and that you like the illustrations. Thank you both so much. I've just achieved an A star in A-level politics with one of the highest marks in my college and the Daily Tea has been a brilliant part of my A-level journey.

3:19Tim Montgomerie: I've been listening every day since the very beginning and I've always appreciated your insightful analysis and the way you bring political stories to life. I couldn't have done it without you both. I'm sure that's not true, but it's really sweet. I'm now heading off to study law at LSE. Wow. And I wanted to send you this as a small token of appreciation for all the work you put into the podcast. Please take it as a heartfelt thank you and a little encouragement in return. With gratitude, Linda. That's so sweet. And she must be really clever to do Laura Ellisee. Well, she must be clever to do this.

3:52Very tough to get into, yeah. I sent a photograph of that to my mother and she replied, is that from Roger Hargreaves?

3:58Tim Montgomerie: I think Roger Hargreaves may be long deceased. Yeah, and I looked it up. He's really dead. Very dead. He did the books in the 1970s. I know. Who is your favourite, Mr Man or Little Miss? Well, obviously, we've all got a fondness for Mr. Tickle. Yes. But I liked Mr. Tidy. Tidy and neat, neat and tidy. See, isn't this interesting? I preferred Mr. Nonsense. Did you? He was the one who wore different coloured gloves and silly shoes and things like that. Or the pink one, Mr. Messy. That's right. He was good fun. I love those books. I used to have them on cassette tape. Yeah. And I used to listen to them over and over and over.

4:30Tim Montgomerie: You were saying earlier, shall we do Mr. and Little Mrs. of politics? This is my challenge to listeners slash viewers. Yes. Send us in a Mr. Man for the different parties. How would they be dressed? What would Mr. Lib Dem look like? What would Mr. Tory look like? Or Mrs. Tory? Yes. Little Miss Reform. Yeah, exactly. Let's have a look. I mean, and if you're going to do Mr. Restore, don't just send us a Mr. Man with a white sheet. Okay. That's cheap. Or a brown shirt. That's cheap. Or a black shirt. They will complain. Stop now. They're always complaining. Speaking of the right, today we are going to talk about reform.

5:08What does reform have to do to win the next election? Because it's certainly not in the bag. And we're going to be joined by Tim Montgomery, who has just been suspended by reform for some of the things that he has said about Nigel Farage. Now, I want to note that reform is actually doing really well, historically and at the present. As we speak, it has just won a stonking by-election victory in Clacton. It swept many councils in England. It did very well in Wales. It's done surprisingly well in Scotland. And for about 18 months, it was the leading party in the polls. It may have slipped in some polls to second position, but the Burnham bounce as of yet is not that big.

5:51And reform is still clearly ahead of the Tories. Although, curiously, Coral, the bookmakers, now believes that Kemi Baden-Ock has the best chance to succeed Andy Burnham as the next prime minister.

6:04Tim Montgomerie: Yet she is seven to two now, Tim, which is extraordinary and does back up our political editor Tony Diver's claim that the Tories are underpriced. They are. The thing about political betting is it can be more interesting to follow in the polls, because like Lord Ashcroft's unusual poll, which asks people not who would you vote for now, but who would you vote for at the next election, political betting is based upon a number of factors trying to weigh up where we might be in the future. And it's interesting to see some bookmakers starting to think the Tories might do well. Now, to say she would be the next prime minister does not mean she would have a landslide majority.

6:41It could be that she's head of a minority government. It could be that she's leading a coalition. Either way, what this brings us back to is reform's perennial problem that although around a quarter of the public is determined to vote for Nigel Farage, that is not enough, probably, to win a majority of seats in Parliament. Not enough, probably, to get through the incredible agenda that they're laying out for themselves. We were present at Robert Jenrick's welfare reform press conference. And in that, he's talking about saving upwards of£50 billion a year by kicking foreigners off the rolls, by removing certain benefits, except for those with extreme conditions.

7:22Welfare to work programme. Welfare to work programme, getting local councils to force people to do 20 hours a week of voluntary service. Policies like this, if nothing else, are going to demand a renegotiation of our relationship with the EU.

7:36Tim Montgomerie: Well, they're also going to demand a massive parliamentary majority to get through the legislation. At the same time as reform is proposing, putting the Royal Navy in the channel to take people back, as they say, to rescue them and take them back to France, which is something France would object to. So it's as if they're spending their political capital ahead of time. So you've got to win and you've got to have the majority big enough in order to get these things passed. And what Tim Montgomery said when he was interviewed by The Spectator, which seems to be why he got kicked off, I don't know, we'll ask him if that's what did it.

8:09What Tim Montgomery said is the fundamental problem is reform is not reaching out to reform curious voters. It has not got a strategy yet to deal with the tactical voting against it. And this is partly the product of a philosophical debate within the party. Are we the Tories 2.0 or are we something populist and different? And it's also about some very bitter personal wars within the party, people seem to be jockeying to replace Nigel Farage rather than thinking about how to win the next election.

8:42Tim Montgomerie: For context, we should explain that Tim Montgomery was once a true blue Tory. He ran the Conservative Home website. He was also instrumental in setting up the Centre for Social Justice, which is a think tank, with Ian Duncan Smith, former Tory leader and former Work and Pensions secretary. That think tank's research has been used and cited by Robert Jenrick this week for some of his welfare reforms, which I think Duncan Smith is upset about because he's made the point that they didn't work in tandem on this. It's just the fact that the rival party has picked up some of the detailed analysis that the CSJ has carried out.

9:19Tim Montgomerie: It should also be pointed out that Tim Montgomery's defection to reform clearly upset conservatives, but also appears to have upset some of the original reformers, including Zia Youssef. Let's hear, first of all, what Tim had to say about Nigel Farage on that Spectator podcast. He can give good television interviews, he can speak to people on the streets, he can do platform speeches, but what he cannot do is if it's about him, his personal circumstances, his personal finances, particularly if he's interviewed by a woman, he's not good. And I said, you need to prepare for these interviews. And then, Tim, let's hear what he has to say about Zia Yusuf.

9:59There are a lot of people who are on no speaking terms with Zia, and it's nearly always Zia who initiates this. It needs to end. You cannot behave like a child in politics. I don't think he's interested so much, actually, in reformed, curious voters. If you try and understand what Zia's doing, it's difficult in trying to understand the man. I think if you understand him as what he does as he wants to succeed Nigel Farage, a lot of, almost everything he does makes sense.

10:39Tim Montgomerie: Well, the man of the moment joins us now in the Daily Tea studio. He's just added some sugar to his tea to sweeten up. Tim Montgomery, honestly, you're causing a bit of a ruckus aren't you in reform well i've had a number of different reactions since i heard about the suspension um and i think the overwhelming one is just sadness actually because it's the last two years um i've tried to give my everything to reform and i still want to i i think the concerted party is fundamentally broken and i left the Conservative Party reluctantly. And I think if we were to stop a Labour government getting a second term, probably in alliance with the Liberal Democrats, we needed a vehicle.

11:24And I think reform is the best vehicle for that. And when I've made criticisms of reform, I hope they've been constructive. And I've made them in the hope the reform would be better. And if they can't take criticism, if a political organisation can't take criticism, it can't develop, it can't advance. and I have been suspended by reform. I've been told that the suspension should be kept private.

11:51Tim Montgomerie: Oh, too late now. I can swear on the Bible or whatever that I did not tell Guido Forks about my suspension, so reform must have broken their own confidentiality. But I do have... They said that I can appeal and that's what I will be doing. Who do you think has suspended you? because I heard, and you can confirm or deny this, that Nigel Farage didn't know this had happened until after it happened. I messaged Nigel and said, did he know? I'm not going to say everything that has happened in correspondence, but Nigel said he did not know about the suspension. So it was taken by Reform HQ, whatever Reform HQ might mean.

12:34I believe Nigel. And one of the reasons I'm going to appeal and fight this and make it a test case for whether reform can be a tolerant party, can cope with internal dissent that is constructive. And I will see whether this appeal process means that I can stay in a party that I want to continue to serve. But if they can't cope with constructive criticism, perhaps I am better off outside.

12:59Tim Montgomerie: But there's two interpretations of that. One, Nigel Farage wasn't told because somebody else did it because they didn't want Nigel Farage standing in the way of it. And that could be the Zia Yusuf did this theory. And I base that on some of the criticisms that you've made of him personally. The second interpretation could be Nigel Farage doesn't busy himself with petty little squabbles within the party, which is rhetoric I've heard before, by the way, not least from Farage directly when I put something to him. He said, I don't really care what X says about Y. the third interpretation is a mixture of the two that your suspension speaks to something bigger going on and what's going on here and farage is having to be the arbitrator he's having to be the referee of a war between original reformers and former tories including yourself that are now reformers who are sparking resentment within the party you're actually a secret tory stooge causing merry hell you haven't drank all of the turquoise kool-aid therefore you're not one of them etc etc okay there's quite a lot of theories yes i know okay well i'd like to know first of all have you been told the reason for your suspension they've given me a list of examples so one of the examples for example was that um when zee yusuf was calling for zach polanski to be imprisoned or taken into custody by the Metropolitan Police for the Instagram sharing of that post, I think we're all familiar with.

14:38I said I thought the police made the right decision not retaining Zach Polanski in custody. I thought Zach Polanski had made an error of judgment. He'd been exposed in public as a fool, and that was punishment enough. And a party of free speech needed to adhere to a party, be a party of free speech. Apparently, that was one of my sins. So it wasn't just the Spectator interview. They've got a catalogue of things. There's five or six things that they have cited over the last two years. Because James Heal of the...

15:08Tim Montgomerie: Well, I'm going to mention one of them. I'm already sort of probably breaching. Reform having breached the fact that this should be kept private. I feel licensed. I'm sure this will only cause me trouble. But I feel licensed to talk a little bit about my suspension. but I'm not going to go through every detail of it if you'll forgive me. And actually, the nature of the letter from them suggested to me that it actually wasn't yesterday's Monday's podcast with a spectator that was the final straw. I think this had been coming for a long time. I think it had been coming ever since I criticised Zia Yusuf.

15:48I think it is my troubled relationship or my troubled, my criticism, Zia Youssef, that are the number one, number two, and number three explanation for why this has happened. Zia Youssef is a hugely talented politician, but he isn't a team player. I'm the one who's not accused of being a team player, but I think it's primarily him that is the issue. Right, because James Heal of The Spectator, who conducted that interview with you, has said that he's had a couple of reactions. One is a party source sympathetic to you who said, Tim's treatment is a disgrace. We look like a cult run by a team of total cults.

16:24But another view is, but the alternative view is, quote, the General Secretary and the Chairman have had months of complaints regarding Tim's behavior and conduct. They saw fit to take action and protect the party. Reform will never engage the Tory briefing wars and toxicity that goes with them. The correct course of action has been taken. Disagreement should happen behind closed doors, not in the eye of the national media. And I want to put it to you, Tim. I say this as a Tim, so I'm pro-Tim, but I want to put it to you that you are a prominent member of reform. And every time I see you on TV, you do seem to be attacking senior figures in reform.

16:59So is it not a view that a party has a right to exert some kind of collective discipline over its members, especially one who is so much in the public eye? Yeah. Well, I disagree with you that every time on the TV, most of the time I find myself like defending the 5 million or something. So perhaps it's, you know, if I look at, you know, the number of times I've been defending reform, I would say it was 90, 95%. Perhaps the ones that catch attention are ones that I'm critical, but the labour that I put into this enterprise, it certainly isn't reflected in the balance between criticism and support that you make.

17:36What I'll go back to is when I joined Reform nearly two years ago, with Zia Youssef and Nigel Farage in the room, I said to Nigel, are you sure you want me? I said I was a pain in the behind for the Tories during the years I ran Conservative Home. And that's the nature of me. I believe in constructive criticism. I'm a half journalist, I'm a half activist. And Nigel said, we need that. We need constructive criticism. We need internal dissent. He said, I have too many people around me who tell me what I want to hear. That's not what reform needs. Maybe all these things are about balance, aren't they?

18:11Maybe I haven't got the balance right all of the time. But overall, I have only done what I said I would do to promise how I behaved to Nigel two years ago. And reform is still everything is all to play for in British politics. I think the burn and bounce is modest. Reform clearly, despite having a difficult few months, are still in the 22 % to 28 % range. The Tories haven't really moved forward that much, even though Kemi Bader-Knot is having a good period. Everything is to play for. But to say the reform haven't had some problems over the last six months would be in complete denial. If we can't discuss those problems, if I can't address them, if people can't have an internal debate in reform about our weaknesses, so that we move out of this zone in which we're stuck, and move back to 30 % plus.

19:04I don't think reform will move forward because so much of what I have talked about now in public has been said in private for a long time and hasn't been heeded or hasn't been taken forward. So I only go public with things as a last resort when internal means are exhausted. There's an interesting cultural difference between reform and conservatives, which is conservatives because they've been around for hundreds of years and they're institutional and they have mass membership. They are a little more tolerant of dissent. I know Kemi has said, I'm not going to take MPs who are pro net zero or the ECHR and things like that.

19:35But you can remain a member of the party. Heavens, someone was going to run for counsel for the Tories who had been imprisoned for racist abuse, for which he had apologised and moved on. And Kemi defended him or his right to restart his life. And we interviewed him on the Daily Tee and you can watch that if you like. Indeed. So my point is that the Tories can do all of that because they have that historical depth. reform is a new party. It is in a, it regards itself as in an uphill struggle against an establishment and faces things like death threats. And what they would probably say if Zia were here, well, if Zia were here, we'd have called the police on you by now.

20:13But if Zia were here, what he would probably say is, okay, I'm willing to take constructive criticism. But actually, if you're going to be a senior figure within this party, you've got to realize that we need to pull together to get over the finishing line. And what we can't take is constant introspection that says things like, I mean, you suggested in that interview, which is a compelling interview, that Nigel Farage can't handle questions about his finances.

20:37Tim Montgomerie: Or that he struggles when interviewed by women. He doesn't prepare for interviews. He's probably angry at himself over the five million. He made a mistake. You're saying that the party leader has an Achilles heel, and to go back to my theorising about what Nigel did or didn't know and why he did or didn't know it, you're exposing something here which is quite dangerous for him, isn't it? That he isn't fully in control of his own party. No, no, well, I didn't say that. Let's just look at this Achilles heel thing.

21:09Why have we struggled? Why has reform, I think I still say we for the moment because technically I still feel attached to it, reform has struggled more than anything else because of this five million question. Nigel has been reluctant to do media in the way that he has done in the past because this question keeps coming on And then when he answers the question, he appears rattled Now, this is from someone who's probably the best media performer in British politics over the last 20 years He can give platform speeches, he's brilliant in street politics, he's brilliant in interviews He's a first class media performer, but he has this one weakness he has this one weakness that when he's asked about himself um he gets very defensive and the number of times i've spoken to him about this privately and said you just have to address this because it's your achilles heel and everyone can see it everyone can see it my neighbors at home my friends but we all can see it and yet you haven't addressed it and he still hasn't addressed it and you know it's it's sort of like humbling in a way for someone who is so good at the media to recognise this weakness and be willing to have a hothouse set up where colleagues throw in private these sort of questions at him and he gets better answers than saying, I can spend it on Ferraris if I want to, or it's none of your business.

22:28And so why have I raised this, Tim, or Camilla? It's because after raising it internally lots of times and it's not happening, it needs to be done. And is that destructive? Well, let your listeners and viewers decide. I think it's because I'm saying a lot of things that others won't be said. And, for example, on Zia, let's mention the other big issue is, do most of Zia's senior colleagues share my view of Zia? A hundred percent. I have the receipts. I have the texts. I have the messages. I have the emails. There is almost no senior colleague of Zia that does not worry about him. In what way? They worry about his lack of collegiality.

23:15They worry about his time that he spends on Twitter attacking others. They worry about his freelancing of public policy positions. So you suggested in that Spectator interview that he's actually doing all this because his mind is more on taking over from Nigel than on reform winning the next election. Well, I look for explanations of people's behavior. So the number one problem, I think, facing reform isn't Tim Montgomery. The number one problem facing reform is that we have a tactical voting problem. We win council by-elections relatively comfortably. And that's because these are not places where tactical voting is happening.

23:56But when the parliamentary by-election comes, where there's a lot of information for voters, we lose those contests. We have to address that if we are to win the next election. And the useless behaviour of making our core votes even more committed, but people who don't like us even more imposed, doesn't make any sense if you want to win a general election. So I try and analyse this behaviour and think, well, what would account for how it behaves? and I think the best explanation is, well, the only explanation I can is that he wants to succeed Martin Nigel Farage because you wouldn't behave the way that he behaves if winning a general election was your number one priority.

24:36Tim Montgomerie: But from his perspective, let's just give him a right of reply. I can't believe I'm providing it, but hey, why not? Channelling your inner Zia Yusuf, Camilla. Okay. He may quite fairly argue as follows. We don't want to be horrified because they have let the electorate on the right down terribly. They didn't deliver on their promises. In fact, they broke them and then some. They provided the framework for this current socialist Labour government to give rocket fuel to idiotic policies economically, on welfare, on immigration, on education, on DEI, on anything else you care to mention. so if you don't mind Tim Montgomery we won't have you coming in here with your you know at times rather liberal thoughts because we have got to provide the public with an alternative to this wishy-washy wet blue conservatism that let everyone down over the course of the last 14 years so I will not allow our project to be diluted and by the way one of the Tories major problems was that it was such a broad church in the end that you were barely all practicing the same religion let alone singing off the same Hind Street.

25:48Tim Montgomerie: I mean, you know, you've got Simon Hoare singing one song, Jacob Rees-Mogg singing another, a succession of leaders blowing in the wind because of a lack of ideological heft. So if you don't mind, I'm going to protect us from the likes of you. Okay, I'll say two things to that. First of all, the idea that I'm some sort of Lib Dem is an interesting one. Perish the thing. In the eyes of anyone really on the right, I mean, according to Restore, we're Lib Dems. I'm a leftist. Alastair Heath is an open borders freak. Yes. Elon Musk called him a traitor. Yes. It's extraordinary. But notwithstanding that.

26:24I would say on issues from crime to immigration to abortion to climate change, I would say I'm a solid small C conservative. I'm definitely on the right. But take the issue of deportation. Let's just take the issue of deportation, which is probably one of the core parts of Zia's brief. I support the fact that we should be deporting people who are here illegally, without a shadow of a doubt. I don't know whether that makes me a Lib Dem or not.

26:50Tim Montgomerie: Probably not, no. But I'll tell you what we have to do, and this is where I have a problem with Zio. The average British person is a reasonable person. They probably, I think there is support for deportation policies. But who are they going to trust with a deportation policy? Someone who sounds angry, someone who sounds like they will make capricious judgments, someone who is inconsistent in how they approach issues like free speech, for example, on the Zach Polanski question that we have just been discussing, will they trust that person with deportation? Or will they trust with someone who looks like they have a heart, looks like they are doing this reluctantly when other oil channels have been exhausted?

27:30I think the question answers itself. So call me a Tory, call me a Lib Demo, call me what you like. But our deportation policy, which I think is essential to national security, people need to look at the shadow home secretary or home secretary the party leader and think that is a person i can trust to fairly implement that policy and that is what these are the points that i'm making and honestly i have made them internally ad nauseam and when after a period when you feel um you're not making progress then i've tried to raise them delicately externally because I'm a journalist as well as a party member.

28:10Maybe that is fundamentally the tension that can't persist. Hang on. Isn't there another tension? But my emotions are clear.

28:18Tim Montgomerie: I'm just thinking of this as you speaking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the person who brought Robert Jenrick across? I was. Were you the main persuader in his defection story? I was involved. Who the main person was? Okay. History probably. So you go and bring in a conservative, a very prominent one, the man who contested the leadership against Kemi Badenock and lost. This man has been on his own political journey. Let's just put that to one side. You bring him in. I don't think Zia Yusuf is particularly happy about this because before he defected, Robert Jenrick was very much in Zia Yusuf's sights.

28:59Tim Montgomerie: In fact, he used to take great delight in ridiculing him on social media. Zia didn't speak to me for three months because I was involved in that defection. And now this man, Zia Yusuf, who wants to eventually inherit Nigel's crown, has got an opponent. His main rival for the crown used to be Richard Tice. Now it's Robert Jenrick. So you've screwed him over twice because you brought in a hateful conservative and you brought in somebody that could cost Zia Yusuf his dream of becoming the next reform leader.

29:36Well, maybe that's true. Maybe you're being more cynical about the use of the norm now after channelling your religious views.

29:43Tim Montgomerie: No, no, no, I'm just trying to theorise what's going on here. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. What I'll say about me is that I want nothing. I do not want a seat. I do not want a position. I have never wanted anything in reform. I go around the country. I've been to Cornwall, Lincolnshire in the last few weeks to reform events. Reform members are the best people in Britain. They're upper working class. They really do the right thing. All the caricatures fit them. I want them to have the government they deserve. That's why I'm in this. I love this country. It's going in the wrong direction. I want to turn it round.

30:19And when I see reform, in my opinion, failing to be what they could be, I say so. And that's my only sin. I'm afraid I think there are other people in reform whose goals aren't so pure. And that is where I think I've got this. What are their goals if it's not to improve the country? I think there's a lot of internal positioning of the kind that Tim just asked me about. I think there's a lot of internal rivalries, a lot of personal ambition. And I honestly do not have that personal ambition. I have faults. I'm not pretending I'm an angel. But all of the constructive criticism I have made is to improve the party, not to advance my position in the party.

31:02The party has disciplined you. It doesn't seem so determined to discipline Zia, who, for instance, described Ben Wallace, a man who has served his country as a traitor, which is ridiculous.

31:14Tim Montgomerie: Although, hang on, Nigel Farage did pull him up on that and say that he was going to give him the ticking off. But the tweet hasn't been taken down and there's no evidence of any actual discipline having been applied. But there is an implicit criticism, what you're saying here then, of Nigel Farage, which is apparently he wasn't involved in the decision to discipline you. He doesn't seem to have disciplined Zia. Does he run this party? One of the arguments that I made in Monday's Spectator podcast was that reform structures need to mature to be consistent and ready for a party that wants to be in government.

31:56And there are basic things, I think, like Nigel doesn't have a chief of staff. He doesn't have regular meetings. He really doesn't have a chief of staff. No, he doesn't have regular meetings with his MPs. Right. And these are the sort of things that are easily corrected. And I think they are going to be corrected. I think it's taken a long time. Tim, forgive me. You said they're easily corrected. The party has been around for several years now, and he's been leading it for two years now. And I'm actually going to have to bring you up on he's got no chief of staff. I find that extraordinary. Every political leader needs someone who is directly responsible to them and is their gatekeeper and whose life is based around shielding and protecting and advising them.

32:38Tim Montgomerie: To be fair, he has gatekeepers. He has gatekeepers. But you need one. The point of the chief of staff is they are one. Well, you have somebody on logistics and you have somebody on comms and he does have people around him. I think it's a mischaracterisation to suggest that this guy is just... He's got very loyal staff around him. Oh, incredibly loyal. You're apparently too many and they're all at war with each other. I mean, that's the impression I'm getting from what Tim's saying. He does have gatekeepers. Camilla's absolutely right. But he doesn't, I think, want that ultimate gatekeeper for the very good reason that one of the reasons that Nigel Farage is successful as he is, he hears directly from people.

33:14He doesn't have too many people cutting him off from the councillors, the activists, to friends who over the years have given him that sort of street wisdom, that connectivity with the public. And I think he fears, perhaps correctly, that if he does have that too much bureaucracy around him, he'll lose that magic connection. So I understand why there has been reluctance for him to appoint that sort of person. But I think you're at a point when, because of the tensions inside the HQ, because of the bombardment, the daily bombardment of stuff that is hitting him, he does need more of a formal gatekeeper running all the other gatekeepers.

33:55And how disabling are those tensions? Do they actually affect how well the party runs? I think the fundamental tension between those who only really want to appeal to the vote that we already have and those that feel we have to address this tactical voting, that we have to be a broader tent. Yeah. That's the fundamental tension. Right. And I think Nigel has angels on both, you know, good and bad angels on both of his shoulders. is listening to both sides and has been doing for a long time. And I don't think he's really come to a decision yet as to which set of angels he's going to listen to.

34:39Tim Montgomerie: Because this is critical, right? Yeah. Who does reform have to appeal to in order to secure a parliamentary majority? They have to continue to appeal to the people that they're already appealing to. That at the moment isn't enough because their poll rating starts with a two and it needs to begin with a three. Yeah. They then have to consider whether they pivot further rightwards, but then that runs the risk of seeming too right wing to the people further leftwards that they also need to appeal to. So they're facing precisely the problem that Boris Johnson faced. How do we unite a strange caucus, really?

35:19Tim Montgomerie: Red wall 2019 conservatives that were once Labour, blue wall conservatives that think the conservatives weren't conservative enough. That is a really tricky balancing act. Let's break it down more simply. This is how I always look at it. It's almost the tabloid righties and the broadsheet righties, isn't it? it's the Aldean Little righties versus the Waitrose and I don't know, Faulkner and Mason righties. It's very exclusive now. No, but that's my point, right? And actually that is a broad church. It's always proved to be a broad church. Are reform ever going to be able to appeal? This is the question they need to answer themselves because you could also divide these strange caucuses of people into, sorry to mention it, brexiteers and remainers but this is why and there might be a decision that you are never going to be winning over yes you're sort of david gorkian remainer yeah we love the echr and we shop at waitrose tories you're never going to bring them to reform ever no that could vindicate i've got an alternative which i should let's say let's say well just to say this is why clacton which nigel won decisively um isn't representative for the country it just isn't it's unusually old It has relatively high levels of economic disengagement.

36:44And it has the second highest percentage of PIP claimants in the east of England. It has a very high percentage of people who are disabled. And one of its largest local employers is social care, much of which is dependent upon immigrants. So it's not like Tunbridge Wells or Guildford or the other kind of seats that you need to win. But not just that. some reform policies, such as the welfare policy that was rolled out yesterday, are going to hit places like Clacton hardest, because they're about a review of PIP claimants. And Clacton has a very high number of PIP claimants. So if you're bringing up policies to appeal to those blue-wool-type fiscal conservatives that you're describing, Camilla, they're actually going to maybe be unpopular among the very red-wall working-class kind of voters who you've described as the average reform member.

37:35Yeah. Well, I tell you what, Donald Trump, who has, as we all know, many faults, what was the most important thing he did to win the Republican nomination those years ago? He actually said he would protect the entitlements of blue collar workers. That allowed people who were culturally supportive of the right wing to feel able to come over to the Republicans. He wouldn't privatize Social Security. And there's something there. But I want to answer Camilla's question directly, if I may. And I put the division this way. Sometimes I believe, maybe I'm incredibly naive in saying this, is that sometimes you just do the right thing.

38:11I think the British people are decent, and sometimes you have to do the right thing. I would say the division we have to look at is whether we go for the restore voters or whether we go for the people who wouldn't stand with restore voters. We're in a building where Alistair Heath works. Restore have basically gone after his family in recent times. Leading members of Restore have been guilty of incredibly anti-Semitic posts. A colleague of mine in Reform, Alex, she's had horrible posts from senior... Alex Phillips. Alex Phillips, yes. Thank you. Restore members. I think we should be saying to the British people that reform is the bulwark against that sort of nastiness.

38:57We will have nothing to do with restore. And anybody who wants to go off and be part of that party, good riddance. And actually, you know, Middle England, I think that's sort of, you know, because Nigel Farage has consistently done this. He's kept Tommy Robinson out of the party. He got rid of Rupert Lowe. Nigel Farage is very good at policing the limit, what is acceptable. We should be doubling down on that. We should be electrifying that issue. We should be saying we are the decent right wing party in British policies and we will have nothing to do with these people. And I think then you get middle England.

39:29That's back to the point I was making earlier about deportation. If people think that we're reasonable people, that we're good people, that we're moderate people, they will trust us with policies that are in other people's hands would be extreme and unacceptable. And that's what we need to do, I think. That, for me, is the big choice that reform faces.

39:48Tim Montgomerie: But the problem you face is that would be a good offering to the country if the current leader of the Conservatives wasn't resolutely right wing. And there is a contradiction at play with your own defection and others. You, Rossendel, you've all left because the Conservatives are too left wing. And yet they've never been led by someone more right wing. And she may be credible in delivering unpopular policies like leaving the ECHR. And they've got more political experience. And so weirdly, this party that you're so familiar with, the Blues, spent their lifetime fighting like rats in a sack. Compared to reform right now, do appear to be a nest of singing birds.

40:30Tim Montgomerie: I mean, who would have funk it? And she is. I mean, she's purging the party to a certain extent of wetties. Wetties. You know, she's saying apparently to Grant Shapps and others, Penny Morden, well, we don't know if we're going to select you, actually, because we don't know if we want people coming into the party who are going to start going, oh, I don't want to leave the ECHR. Yes and no, Camilla. All right. I could easily vote for Kemi Bednock. Wouldn't be a problem. Probably get me in more trouble saying that with reform. But I have no trouble with Kemi Bednock. No trouble with Kevin Hollenway, who I've been in this studio with, debating you with.

41:08But there are a lot of Tory MPs that you say that's a party of singing birds at the moment. Some of those birds are quite quiet. And I would say, if it's the question I ask of Kevin Holliday in this studio, if they could choose as a party, you know, imagine a scenario where they could choose between the Lib Dems or reform, put them in power. I think a third of Tory MPs would still choose the Lib Dems. Yeah. That's the problem is reform is a much more coherent, just everything I've said today or we've discussed today is a much more coherent body. I know of at least two it's more anecdotal but I know two people who are unknown to the general public who moved on to the Conservative candidates list really they're very nice people but they're not Conservative so there's a high profile purge of people we know I'm not convinced that generally the Conservative candidate coming through are as Conservative as Kemi Badenow would like us to think

42:08Tim Montgomerie: and yet your party may still need to do a deal with the Conservatives when the time comes. After the election. What will you do about if they are going to have closet Lib Dems in their midst? Again, more for them. But if they are, how are you going to do a deal with that? Well, you have to do a deal with the numbers that the British people give you at a general election, don't they? If we're reforming short of a majority, the Conservative Party is probably the only likely partner we have. and you may be doing a deal with only a proportion of the party. But that will be Kemi Baden-Otts' problem, wouldn't it?

42:47Kemi Baden-Otts has to bring her, all of her party members, along with any deal that she signs. You want to create a reform version of Con Home called 900 days, which is a reference to what? It's basically the amount of time we have left to probably the date of a general election if we go full term. Okay, I mean, heck, it could be 30 or 60 days. It could be a lot closer than that. Is that project approved of by the party? Yeah. And Nigel actually said to me, he'll do an email to party members advertising. And I said, well, that might not be a good idea because it might be a bit critical at times.

43:26He said, OK, that's probably why I said it. So everything has been above board, but I probably won't be launching 900 days now until this suspension issue has been cleared up. But you hope to go ahead with it? I hope to go ahead. I'm not optimistic. my appeal it's going to succeed. I'm going to try. And that Nigel Farage did not know about my suspension gives me some hope. Other senior figures in the party that have been in touch with me today, they didn't know about the suspension either and have offered me support. But obviously I've got some pretty fierce opponents inside HQ. Probably things I've said in this interview today aren't going to help.

44:06Tim, Tim, I'm not going to go quiet because this is who I am. and I'm not going to change who I am in order to get unsubended. Be completely honest. Is there an element of jumping from frying pan to fire here? You were in a party which, for all its faults, didn't do this to you, and where you built a career as a critical voice, and it was tolerant of that. You've now joined another party, which turns out to not be tolerant of you. Is there any part of you that thinks, I made a mistake? I said this to the spectator. on Monday and I'll say it again, there's hardly been a day when I've not wondered whether I've made a mistake.

44:44It's been a high wire act all the way through. I think it's been worth it for the reasons I said out at the beginning, why I think reform was the option. But, you know, some people have always said I was foolish to join reform. And maybe if the suspension is approved, they will have been right

45:06Tim Montgomerie: Tim Montgomery thank you for your candle on today's Daily Tea it's been great to speak to you and good luck with your appeal and by the way I listen to this podcast every edition it's my favourite podcast it's apart from the one I run not another one that's obviously the best one but honestly you do a great job I love the chemistry between the two of you you're honest so it's a privilege for me to be on Stop it. We're not going to edit this to make you look any better. No, I was going to say, how self-regarding are we? We start the podcast being glazed and we end it being glazed. That's how insecure your average journalist is, ladies and gentlemen.

45:42Tim Montgomerie: It is the silly season. Yes, indeed. And frankly, we've had a fairly testing couple of days, so it's quite nice for people to say something nice about us. Thank you very much. We'll be back tomorrow.

46:01Thank you.