Farage vs Binface: The gamble that could trash Reform

0:02The Telegraph.

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0:52Farage versus Binface. Is the reform leader in danger of an extraordinary act of self-sabotage? And could a talking intergalactic bin be the thing that ultimately closes the lid on his career in the commons? And the£50 million question facing Prince Harry. How much of that giant legal bill is he going to have to pay? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tomlin.

1:25Camilla, you have done pointless. Yes. You have done mastermind. Celebrity. Celebrity mastermind. I use that term extremely loosely. And now you have done the third jewel in that crown. Yes. The weakest link. I'm holding out for catchphrase, I've got to be honest. Say what you see. But when will we see it? We'll see it over the Christmas period and I'm afraid I've been sworn to secrecy about my own performance. This is the magic of TV. It's like Top of the Pops being recorded in June. Yeah. It's actually done. How did they dress you? Did they dress you for Christmas? No, I wasn't dressed like an elf, although I was in red because I thought that was a good look for what's going to be Saturday night primetime BBC.

2:04I've made the big time with this. I mean, this is huge. Yeah, it doesn't get much bigger than this. Unless you can dance. Can you dance? No, I can't, no. Right. So they record them all in a batch. Yes. They record three a day. Right. Isn't that incredible? I know. I was in a weakest link sausage factory, basically. Yeah. They must hate it by the end of the week. Zedmisters poured into the studios in Glasgow and then left, fully made up. But it's, you know, I recommend watching it. It's interesting. That's all I'm going to say. You can't say who won. No, I can't. Can you say who else is on the panel?

2:35No, probably not. Because you don't know who they are. Well, OK, I'll tell you one person who is there. All right. Vicky Michelle from Hello, Hello. Oh, I love her. Renée. Oh, Renée. Mon dieu. Who's lovely. Big GB News fan. So we like that. Asking me, what's going on with Nigel? Which we'll get on to in just a minute. But can I ask you something really, really important? And I've had my suspicions for some time now, and they've been confirmed by a listener to the Daily Tea, James in Carlisle, who writes this. I've been listening along as usual, but just before accessing the podcast yesterday, I watched the Sky News election interview with Count Binface.

3:20As a result, I have to raise a matter of national importance. or at least something that's been bothering me since last night. Is Tim Stanley secretly Count Binface? Hear me out, he says. They sound uncannily alike. Both adore the glorious chaos of British politics. Both appear at by-elections with the enthusiasm of someone who's just discovered working free Wi-Fi. It's starting to feel less like coincidence and more like a full Bruce Wayne Batman situation. Apart from fighting crime, the mission is fighting low voter turnout in Clacton and defending the honour of the refuse system. If Tim suddenly appears in a shiny silver mask, I'm claiming credit.

4:03Admit it, you have never seen them in the same room together. Right. So you think every time there's a by-election, Adam Bolton turns on a gigantic torch that shines a bin in the sky and I go into my bin cave and put on my costume and come flying out to fight the Joker. aka Nigel Farage. Well, after the days we've just witnessed in politics, stranger things have happened, Tim Stanley. Be honest, is it you? Obviously, I couldn't say if it was, but we have been seen in the same room together because we both covered the Richmond election of Rishi Sunak in 2024, where all the nutty candidates came.

4:42And I suppose if you're going to be a candidate in a country that's become a loony bin, being an actual bin is a bonus. It does work. And he confronted me on camera and I've been trying to find the footage. If anyone else can find it, please send it to me. And he says, people say, I'm you. And I'm not sure which of us is more embarrassed or annoyed by the comparison. Listen, there is a similarity in your voice and intonation. There is a little bit, isn't there? And also somewhat in the humour. I find bin face quite funny. I think bin face is funny. And I think this is why it's quite worrying for Nigel Farage.

5:19I think we're going to get on to discuss why he may have overplayed his hand on this. But I just want to say, I've noticed online, Westminster does not find it funny. And the reactions are split between reformed people saying, you're laughing at democracy, versus Westminster pundit types who are saying, what has this country come to? Yes. Well, it's come to this. This is what it's come to. The truth is, we have always done this in elections. Someone actually tweeted, what would Robin Day make of this? Robin Day. Would have found it hilarious, probably. That sort of founding father of British election nights.

5:58Well, actually, if you watch old election nights, they always began with an impersonator, Mike Yarwood or Rory Bremner. Yarwood would come on as Ted Heath and say, hello, Sola. And then there was often a song by Richard Stilcoe in which he would take the mick out of MPs. We've always done this. what has changed is the cost of running in elections. So it used to be price, the deposit was priced high on purpose to discourage anyone but the two parties from running. And since the 1960s, the cost of the deposit has gone down. And that's why you get these fun candidates. But if you go back to, I think, probably 1963, when Alec Douglas Hume left the House of Lords and ran in a by-election in order to enter the Commons so he could become prime minister, the privatised sent Willie Rushton to run against him.

6:45So we've always had joke candidates. Exactly. What I can't understand, though, is how has Count Binface suddenly replaced Screaming Lord Such? It used to be the monster raving loony. This is a bit like us all drinking Schweppes tonic water for years and then someone invents fever tree and we're like, oh, I didn't know you could have a different kind of tonic. I didn't know you could have a different kind of nutbag parliamentary candidate. Well, there's a very sad explanation for the reason why we no longer laugh at the monster raving loonies. Why? They are no longer funny. They've gone hard left.

7:16Oh, God. It happens to them all in the end. They're like Trotskyites now. Talk about losing your sense of humour. They still turn up dressed like a clown. But if you actually speak to them, as I have done, it's all sort of, I want to know who funds him. Oh, God. It's all that sort of thing. It's very disappointing. As Farage would say, boring. But the interesting thing is, it always fascinates me, is the relationship between politicians and humour. Some politicians, like Nigel, are funny, but they're really funny about other people. They're less funny about themselves. I mean, Nigel will tell jokes about himself, but they're quite flattering jokes.

7:49They're, I like a pint and I like a fag. Politicians don't tend to go in for bathos. They don't tend to go in for, oh, I just slipped on a banana. No. They don't do that. We'd love to, I mean, they eat bananas sometimes and make idiots of themselves. That's very true, bacon. But I think part of the reason is that in politics, you have to take yourself dreadfully seriously because you're saying to the country, I want to run you. And that both attracts very serious, unfunny people, but also means that even people with a sense of humour have to park it slightly. And so when they are confronted with a fun character, they don't quite know how to deal with it.

8:23No. And this is going to be a good test is will Nigel meet with Binface? And I think he should. I think the only... For a face to bin debate. Very good. I think the only path left open for him, because this is embarrassing, is for him to show I get the joke and I can take it. He has to embrace this now because one of the consequences of all this is that this so-called man of the people who everyone would like to have a jolly old laugh with down the pub now appears to be taking himself a little too seriously. And I'd like to make the comparison between him and that other quite dysfunctional politician that basically was the bet noire of half the country, a little like Farage.

9:04And that's Boris Johnson. Yes. Now, Boris Johnson was lampooned a great deal, often by himself. Yeah. Let's think back to him trying to open that umbrella. Yes. You know, or him. Getting stuck on the high wire. Exactly. Exactly. But to be fair to him, his kind of overall appeal, even to those who were ideologically opposed to him and everything he stood for, was that he never, ever took himself seriously. In fact, that was one of the main criticisms, wasn't it? That he wasn't a credible prime minister because he would ruffle the old blonde hair and say, oh, well, keep calm and carry on and then drive off in his cheese ridden car.

9:40At his counts, Boris often looked like the joke candidate. That's right. Oh, is that one of the monster raving ludies? And he famously said, it might have been after his first night that he was elected, he took to the microphone and said, right, go home and prepare for breakfast. It was very clever, right? Yes. But there's very much we need, there's a place for and we need humour in politics. Yes. And as I say, I've just been struck by how Westminster can't handle it. Well, there's been a real sense of humour failure. No offence to you, Neil Rilke, but you know, they're just very serious Oxbridge types, aren't they that haven't had enough fun in their lives Right but Oxbridge is funny and funnily enough Count Binface did go there Well Count Binface just to do the big reveal I mean he was I'm reluctant to do this because this is like saying Dame Edna is actually Barry Humphreys It's a little unfair You can never You can't treat a joke seriously Do you not want me to say that he's a comedian called John Harvey who worked on sitcoms in the past and let's credit him I think this one line basically sums up why he's running in Clacton What is your appeal going to be to the people of Clacton?

10:49Well, I'm not Nigel Farage. Now, running because you're not Nigel Farage isn't a bad manifesto, is it? I'm now starting to worry a bit about reform because... I saw our champion columnist Simon Heffer on the Tube this morning and I said, what do you think will happen? He said, I think the bin will win. Do you know what? Heffer's been around the block a bit as well. Why does he think that then? Because the odds are shortening on the bin winning. If the bin manages to attract the support of everyone in Clacton who doesn't support Nigel Farage, then he could poll pretty well, right? Also, we've got rumours bubbling up that somebody might be funding him in the form of Dale Vince, who is the eco-warrior turned entrepreneur.

11:36Dale Vince has said that he would like to finance him. Right. He would like to finance him. And that he's reaching out to his team to offer his support. OK, so like anyone that hates Farage, and that is quite a large proportion of people, could throw significant weight behind Count Binface and money. Well, Kemi Badenoch has endorsed Count Binface. Yeah, she described Binface now as the people's candidate. Now they've withdrawn. But can I just say on Dale Vince, I did record a Sunday showdown with him. It is explosive, Tim. You caught the end of it. I don't want to give any spoilers away, but I cannot urge you more to watch this thing when we put it out on Sunday.

12:16Yeah, it's quite something. I agree. It's really just from what Dale Vince is wearing to how the whole thing ends. It's just it's so spectacular. Please do tune in for that. Yeah, really, if you normally listen to this, you have to actually watch this one because what he's wearing is incredible. It's a joy to behold. So let's look at Bin Face's odds. William Hill Reform 1-6 to win Count Binface 7-2 Wow Can we agree? Because you interviewed Robert Jenrick very slickly, may I say with our colleague I just interviewed them Poppy Kober No, but there was a great line in it where he talks about the importance of fighting by-elections and you just say Well, you didn't Yeah Which was great I loved it I know, and everyone seized on it and I feel a bit guilty about it My God, are you turning into Anne Robinson?

13:01Am I rubbing off on you? Just becoming evil Anyway, that was very good. Now, there's a bit of confusion here, isn't it? Because you very clearly asked Jenrick whether they had moved a few chess pieces forward and actually envisaged a scenario where Farage ends up having no candidates from the major parties. Let's just hear you ask him that question and let's have his answer. When you were making a decision about what to do, did you war game this possibility that they were not right? For sure. Look, we know that they're like this. Look, what's happened in the last few months in British politics?

13:35Every time there is an election, like the May elections, you know, there are some exceptions for sure, but by and large, reform has been winning. And I just want to add, it was Poppy Coburn, my co-presenter's idea to ask it. Love that. But I stole it because it was such a good question. Yeah, you do tend to do that. So there he clearly is suggesting... Just kidding, by the way. So there he is, clearly suggesting that we considered every scenario when deciding to trigger this by-election, including no one running against us. But when Nigel Farage was interviewed by Christian Calgi, previously of the Daily Express, now of the Daily Mail, and he was asked if he had considered the possibility of fighting as the only proper candidate, Mr Farage confessed, no, of course not.

14:19Why would they not contest? It's a real election. So however this plan was cooked up, And you've written a very brilliantly funny sketch as ever talking about was it cooked up, you know, on the way back on the plane from Washington, having had a knees up with Trump, drunk on, you know, imagery inside the Oval Office, 15 gin and tonics down. I mean, it does look like it's back of a fag packet stuff. I've got to be perfectly honest. I don't think they did war game it properly, did it? Because it's now looking, frankly, farcical, totally farcical. within reform are likely to be asking what the hell happened.

14:59Yeah. I think this is the biggest mistake of Nigel Farage's contemporary political career. Wow. I think it's that scale of an error, and it's one which is going to cast doubt upon his leadership in reform. It's not going to bring him down, but it is the first real stumble, coming off the back of what has been extraordinary momentum, winning elections, including his election to Clacton. And I think it speaks to so much of the psychology of the man. We were talking about this last night, that here is someone whose parents were not super wealthy. No. Went to Dulwich College. Well, he goes to Dulwich.

15:41He's kind of a round peg in a square hole there. Obviously, we know all of the anti-Semitism and other allegations that have surfaced. Clearly people he went to school with have subsequently briefed against him. So he can't have been the most popular student. Then we fast forward. He is in the city but maybe doesn't make quite enough money, enters politics. He obviously was a Conservative. It is reported. It is suggested that he wanted to be a Conservative candidate and wasn't selected. So he's an outsider as far as the right is concerned. He's an outsider at the time during that period as a Brexiteer.

16:15Of course, you then get the Maastricht rebels and the whole momentum behind Brexit moving at pace post-major. But he still is an outsider. So this is my point, is the left can't get a handle on the guy because they always say you are the establishment because you went to Dulwich and you were a trader. But if you're kind of in the establishment, you know there's the establishment and then there's not the establishment. And it's a magic circle. And he's never quite been in it. No. But he's always been aspiring to conquer it in some way. In 2016, this is the man who made Brexit possible. He's even denied leadership of the official Brexit campaign.

16:53That goes to Boris. And yet, undoubtedly, it wouldn't happen without him. Once Brexit does happen, he's then excluded from the process of pulling off Brexit. Everyone was saying to the Tories at that time, give the man a peerage. If nothing else, it might shut him up. And they again refused. He lends the Tories effectively the Brexit Party's support in 2019 to help Boris with his landslide. And again, he's then ignored. So here's a man who's had to fight and fight. And what is it he has most wanted to do his entire career? It's to enter the House of Commons. Yes. And finally he did it as the head of his own party, which is now leading in the polls for over a year.

17:35And I think that part of what's driven this is he's gone into the Commons and discovered he is still a round peg in a square hole. That's right. Speaker won't call him. No. There's nothing he can do. It's pointless being a small party. Every time you stand up, the Lib Dems cackle at him like a sort of dreadful old woman in a board film audience. He's in that triangle of Lib Dems, Scots, Natchez. Surrounded by actual Marxists and people who are accused of being Islamists. Exactly, Gaza independence. And he can't really see the point of it. His mates are over in America having a great time, although he went to Mar-a-Lago and again, another example, didn't get to see Donald Trump back in March.

18:15So you can see the frustration welling inside him. And then what happens? There's this slew of stories which come at such a pace that it must begin to feel like a conspiracy. Yes. First, the accusations of anti-Semitism in his youth. Then the questions about the five million pound donation. And now the stuff about George Cottrell. And then on top of that, now questions are being asked about Rob Jenrick's donations when he was running for party leader of the Tories. And also people are now suggesting that George Cottrell may have bankrolled some of Nigel Farage's early videos. By the way, that's totally irrelevant.

18:54All that matters is what he did or did not declare in the 12 months up to him becoming an MP. It's a really unimportant story in that regard. But nonetheless, these are the things that everyone's asking. And it must just feel again like they are throwing everything at me. Oh, and then on top of that, they cut his security back in the wake of the killing of Charlie Kirk. And he's got journalists showing up at his door. So Nigel, seeing all this as a massive conspiracy against him, reaches for the thing he's most comfortable with. And what is that? Launching a campaign. Running in an election. Yes.

19:30Not preparing for government, not writing policy, not doing what, say, Rupert Lowe, to his credit, has done and try to use your parliamentary seat to hold inquiries and bring things to people's attention, it's I'm going to go back on the campaign trail. And where is he going to do it? In Clacton, the place that elected Douglas Carswell. It is ground zero in Leverville. So all he's really doing is seeking the affirmation of people who he knows love him. And then what happens? that the elite then conspire to not even take part in the election, leaving him running against a bin. Listen, you can understand the motivations.

20:13I'm just questioning the execution because, I mean, I'd been writing in the week about Prince Harry and we're going to get on to him in a minute, but there is a correlation here because, again, as with the case with Prince Harry, this is reminding me of Kenneth Williams in Carry On Cleo. Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy. You know, you're a victim of your own success. You know, you can't have it both ways. You cannot be the most recognisable politician in the UK and, frankly, most recognisable British politician probably in America after Keir Starmer right now. I mean, let's be honest, the Yanks haven't got a clue who Andy Burnham is.

20:52They probably think he's the sixth member of Oasis at this stage, right? So, fine. And then say, but I'm coming under more scrutiny than anyone else. Part of this is of his own making. He could have taken different decisions when it came to accepting funding from Cottrell, knowing he was a convicted criminal, accepting money from Christopher Harbourn, knowing he was a crypto billionaire, and that they were in turn quite keen to push crypto policy. He had a choice. Or just ride out the current accusations. Just ride it out. If you've got nothing to hide, then the investigation should be fine. When Boris ran for leader of the Tory party, there was a whole week in which people were trying to suggest that he'd had some kind of physical altercation with his then girlfriend Carrie, to whom he is now married.

21:41Yes, Red Winegate. I remember when he sat down for an interview with Ian Dale and everyone wanted to ask about it and he simply refused to talk about it. And it took a few days, but eventually people let it go. Yes. Why couldn't he let all of this go? And this is why I think it's such a big mistake. Never mind the fact he's now going to spend several weeks being trailed around by a bin, which there is a way to handle. He might be able to cope with that. Yeah, but while that's going on, Andy Burnham is getting his feet under the table in Downing Street. Meanwhile, reform is growing. It is turning into a proper organisation.

22:17It takes time and money and effort. It's a boring process, but it is actually happening. and this is a huge, unnecessary distraction from that process. Now, while this is going on, there is another election taking place for mayor of Manchester. Now, reform can again say... Extraordinary, by the way. Reform can reasonably say we stood a good chance of winning that, but they fixed it by changing the electoral system. It was going to be first past the post, but now it's PR. It's much harder for us to win it. But still, this is Andy's backyard, new prime minister. What if you took, say, a third of the vote in that race or even a quarter of the vote in that race?

22:55You can legitimately say, we are the main opposition party and we're humiliating the new Prime Minister. What has the party now told its workers to do? Stop campaigning in Manchester. Come to Clacton. Yes, Reform UK activists have been urged to divert from the Greater Manchester mayoral by-election to support Nigel Farage's contest 250 miles away. A WhatsApp message shared with party members in the north-west of England said,

23:32The text seen by The Guardian, Natch, urges members to complete a volunteering form for the Essex by-election, adding, We look forward to seeing you in Clacton. Well, I'm sorry, but this is the other problem for Farage now, and indeed reform. that is going to annoy a great many activists in the North. The whole of the reform project is meant to be about the Red Wall. We can beat Burnham, the so-called King of the North. We've pushed the Conservatives out. It's now a straight run between the Reds and the Turquoise for this extremely important territory that was won over by Boris Johnson in 2019.

24:11If he's now turning his back on Greater Manchester, literally for a quite self-indulgent by-election that, by the way, might not be the one and only by-election that we see in Clacton in the next few months. There's probably going to be another one now because of this Parliamentary Standards Commission's investigation, which could result in a suspension, which could still result in a recall petition, which could still result in a by-election. I appreciate Farage is going to turn around to the Westminster establishment and say, I've just won a by-election. Do you really want to have another one?

24:39But if then the rules, there will be one. So if you're an activist in the north for reform, you're presumably at this point tearing your hair out thinking, seriously, you want me to go and knock on doors for a man who is facing a human bin? If I was a donor, I'd be saying, why am I financing what feels like an operation to make Nigel feel better about himself? Yes. If I was Rob Jenrick or Suella or Danny Kruger, I'd be thinking, why have I joined this party, which I thought was building a program for government? And instead, I'm being asked to go and spend several weeks in Essex campaigning so that Nigel can feel better about himself.

25:23Yes, that's right. This is why I think it's such a big mistake, because I think it's actually going to have consequences in the reform organisation itself. And the battle is still on for who is the main opposition party to Labour. Now, for the moment, it's reform. It's definitely reform. Everything I'm saying, by the way, honestly comes from a place of love. I know reform people will be watching this and thinking, oh, you just hate reform. No, no, no, no, no. I'm genuinely open minded. I want to see which centre-right party is going to be the opposition party at the next election. And I'm telling you, Nigel has been allowed, and I suspect it all comes from Nigel, to make a serious strategic blunder here that the Tories are going to love because they will now make the argument, all Nigel is interested in doing is running for office.

26:12What we want to do is run a government. Well, they'll say all Nigel is interested in is Nigel. Yes. And then they will reaffirm what he has been denying for months and years. He will reaffirm that it really is a one-man band. But this whole party has to convene because basically his skin hasn't been thick enough. I mean, it's the first rule of politics. Grow a thick skin. Just take it. You know, it's not a nice one. Write it out. And if there's standards committee, which nine-tenths of MPs hate as well, because it's an opaque process that everyone distrusts, You're not allowed to see the evidence.

26:50You're not allowed to understand the decision made against you. It is an awful process. If the process says you're suspended, there's a recall and you're kicked out, fight the by-election and then you can legitimately say the establishment's against me because the establishment's just driven you out of Parliament. But you can't say the establishment's against you when you've resigned your seat. Just on that process and the opaqueness of it, I did quite a lot of reporting at the time of Owen Paterson being investigated by this. As you say, it's just it's not a proper judicial process. It doesn't have any appeals system.

27:22But you're quite right to identify this is a process that has really angered politicians of all hues. Now, I make this point, you know, at the moment in his absolute contempt for this particular system, Nigel Farage is united with the likes of John Bercow. Right. John Bercow has made very, very similar complaints about this system. And let's be honest, those people couldn't be more chalk and cheese, apart from both having been conservatives back in the day. OK, Bercow, let's be honest, has been on a journey and is now pretty left leaning. But the point is, that's the other misstep here to suggest that that process more unfairly disadvantages righties than lefties.

28:05Plenty of lefties have said this process has made my life a living hell. So we can have a debate about the process and whether it's fit for purpose. but to personalise it in this way. And again, frustration here. Alastair wrote a very good column about this. Alastair Heath, yes. Alastair Heath, the country is turning more right wing on individual issues than it's been in some time. The problem is that the right is too divided to benefit, so Labour is capable of slipping up through the middle and winning again. Now, Alcanz has said, I will not run against Burnham. He was never going to. He never had the support for it.

28:42That also had a touch of vanity to it too. Although a lot of people watched this interview with us and thought they rather liked him because he is a closet Tory. So Burnham is now going to win without a proper leadership election. And if you look at the polling, you can infer from it that the public hasn't even noticed. The polling has hardly shifted at all. This is the last chance Labour will ever get for a reset because as we experienced from the Tories, the next reset is a disaster the one after that is a catastrophe and it's all over so this is this is this should be the reset where there's a bump in the polls and everyone goes well i've seen his videos talking about the beetles or everton and he seems really nice and i'm going to give him a go and the fascinating thing is that hasn't happened no the public either have looked at him and thought meh it's just as bad as starma or they've simply not noticed and from the early hints that we've got of what he's going to do, it's almost comically bad.

29:42It has been suggested that he wants to heal relations with the PLP by loosening the control of the whip's office and having more dialogue between himself and backbench MPs. Now, if you think about it, what was the first thing that told us Keir Starmer's premiership was dead? It was the U-turn on welfare reform. So in other words, what killed his government was his inability to whip his MPs. What this man is doing... Doubling down on it. This is a contest where he was against Al Karns and Karns pulled out. So this is a contest where right now Andy Burnham could say, I'm going to bring back the death penalty and abolish capital gains tax and he would still become leader of the Labour Party.

30:30Again, this is his moment to do difficult and controversial stuff. And he's opening it by giving a neck rub to the PLP and signaling to them that if I should in the future wish to cut a bit of spending in order to dig us out of the enormous financial hole we're in, feel free to vote against me or stop me. So this is a government that on policy terms is already dead on arrival. Why can you not focus on attacking that rather than knocking on doors in Clacton? But he needs to, if he does want to be the leader of the opposition, if he does want to be that person, he needs to work out, as you say, who the opposition actually is.

31:16So he's going to be absent without leave, basically, as Burnham comes in, embeds, probably makes a series of catastrophic errors within the first couple of weeks, as socialists always do. Kemi Badenot will be there, right at the forefront of every possible criticism. You know, the public is actually quite confused about what Farage means by the establishment and the blob. Well, are you in it? Who's in it? Is she in it? Is he in it? It's a very straight fight. It's a very straight fight, just right to left. Everyone understands that. We're capitalists. You're socialists. We want taxes to be low.

31:50You want them to be high. That's a battle that the electorate can understand and really get into. At the moment, Farage is opposing a bin. He's opposing some kind of mythical system that is against him, even though the public is for him. It's just not clear-cut. He's giving Burnham a free ride, which is politically very stupid in its decision-making. I expect Badenock to capitalise on this, by the way, because the Tories can now push them. They're in a bit of a quandary because they don't know whether they should continue to personally criticise Farage or not, recognising that they could get some of their own voters back.

32:27I think they're then going to pivot down the, look at this farce. Is this man really fit to be Prime Minister? Which wouldn't be a bad thought. And by the way, as you were just mentioning donations there, again, the Conservatives could capitalise because if people are having buyer's remorse about reform, Bade Nock should sweep them up, right? So our colleague Camilla Turner has reported, reformed donors revolt against Farage. Mohamed Amersi, who gave 25 grand to the party, says he will not contribute again until the cloud hanging over this issue is resolved. Well, that's the other problem for Nigel Farage.

33:02OK, right now this investigation is in abeyance. As soon as we get the outcome of Farage versus Binface, it starts up again. And by the way, even if Farage is no longer a member of parliament, the investigation continues. And the media will continue to investigate it. and it means Clacton will be flooded with journalists and now with one trusts recyclable leaflets. Yes. Reminding every single person in Clacton that he received£5 million. Talking about lots of dosh, £50 million, Tim, is the rumoured cost of Prince Harry and his fellow claimants' case against associated newspapers. But how much is the prince going to have to pay and has Megan made enough jam to cover it?

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34:40The best way to look at the Duke of Sussex versus the male, male on Sunday and male on nine, in numbers, is as follows. I'm just going to hit you with a few figures because I know sometimes when listening or watching things where lots of figures are bandied around, it's a bit difficult, but this illustrates where we're at with this. And by the way, I did a law degree, And it's figures like this that make me question why on earth I went into journalism. Because my goodness me, that some people have made an absolute mint from this absolute farrago. How about this? First figure, 350 to 5 grand in pounds per hour.

35:20The various prices we think the claimants have been charged for legal advice. Wow. And indeed associated, employed grade A solicitors who charged£740 an hour. Wow. Nice work if you can get it. £18.7 million, the combined total of the claimant's proposed budget. £19.8 million, that was Associated Newspaper's proposed budget. £4.1 million, that was the amount the judges ruled the claimants could spend. £4.5 million. That was the amount the judges ruled that Associated Newspapers could spend.

36:03£216 ,669. The claimant's proposed budget for settlement negotiations. £0. Associated's proposed budget to agree a settlement. Now, I say that about settlement because we have reported that Harry was minded to try and settle this case out of court. Can you explain to me, as a lawyer, why are those... I've only got a law degree. Can you explain to me, Perry Mason? Yes. Why are those figures so big? What are you paying for when you pay£19.8 million? I mean, it's the market cost, right, for top media lawyers. That's what you'd expect to pay. And that's both in preparation of paperwork and in appearing in court.

36:47David Sherbourne, who represented the claimants, I mean, it's kind of like Kim Kardashian's dad's territory. Alan Dershowitz would be the American equivalent. These are people that represent celebrities. Now, they're going to be cashing in. So are you paying for the name? You're paying for the name. You're paying for the sophistication of their case. Well, you're not going to go down to the local high street and pluck a conveyancer. But why not? I know. No, but, you know, look at people who get people to handle their divorces. Right. You know, why is Mish Gondurea, the law firm, renowned for fighting a good fight when it comes to divorces?

37:27Well, because Fiona Shackleton represented Paul McCartney. OK. And trash you get tea and biscuits when you go to Associated's offices. Shackleton represented Prince Charles. Yes. And Anthony Julius, I believe, represented Princess Diana, right? So these are big legal names. And if you're a big legal name, then you charge big legal prices. Right. Because I've seen My Cousin Vinny. Yeah, me too. Love that film. And it looks quite easy to do. Yeah, I know. Joe Pesci, right? And Melissa Tume, which is a great film back in the 90s. OK, that looks easy. I think this is a bit more complex. But what's important here is to try and get a handle on how much of the bill Harry might need to saddle, right?

38:16Because at the end of the day, the word, at the end of the day, some 50 million keeps on being banded around. And I spoke to our head of legal and that was kind of confirmed in court that that was the ballpark of how much this had all cost. And we already know it's cost millions. what's interesting about this so-called battle this virtuous battle against the press is how much funding has actually come from the estate of max mosley right so max mosley son of sir oswald uh renowned in his day okay neo-nazi not a bad thing in and of itself okay sins of the father etc etc but famously mosley now deceased was caught in a news of the world sting uh being whipped and things by leather-clad prostitutes.

39:02Again, not a bad thing in and of itself. No, OK. But it was mischaracterised by the newspaper as a Nazi orgy. Yes. And he won a case. He won a case. Saying it was not a Nazi. It was just a plain good old-fashioned orgy. Just a good old-fashioned orgy, yes. Yes, it involved leather. It was an apolitical orgy. Maybe some people looked a little bit like Heflick from Allo Allo, as we mentioned earlier. I think you'll be very careful what you say. Well, we can no longer defame the dead, but no. Okay, so leather-clad prostitutes and Max Mosley. Okay, just park that. Similarly, we know that figures like Hugh Grant supported Hacked Off because they were hacked off.

39:39That story's emerged, for instance, in Grant's case of him and Divine Brown, the prostitute, appearing in Flaigrante Delicto on the Hollywood Boulevard back in the day. we all remember the mugshot didn't exactly look like the stills from Four Weddings and a Funeral It was the Kennedy assassination of its time we can all remember where we were when Hugh was caught So I wrote a piece about this in the week they claimed it was about virtue a lot of this was about vengeance a lot of these claimants literally wanted like the news of the world the Daily Mail to be closed down because it's irreverent because it's right wing and because it has been run for many, many years by Paul Dacre, who is, let's be honest, the bête noire of pretty much anyone in show business.

40:27Let's hear what he had to say about Moseley and his fortune funding this case. Make no mistake, this was a conspiracy supported by Hackthoff to destroy a paper. Financed by the audio-loving racist Max Moseley and involving the actor Hugh Grant, It was also a sinister bid to resuscitate Leveson 2 and impose statutory regulation on the press, which, even now, is rearing its ugly head in Labour's media green paper. So basically, now that Associated Newspapers have won, they're likely to recoup about 75 % of their costs. That has to come from the other side. OK, so that's costly for Prince Harry and co.

41:15it's also interesting to note that the money involved in the case has gone up and up and up and in January of last year the judge in the case Mr Justice Nicklin and another judge called David Cook had quotes little difficulty concluding that such sums were manifestly excessive and therefore disproportionate this has cost Prince Harry a lot right reputationally a great deal but actually I think some of these claimants have paid through the nose to lose a case on 97 different counts Tim. Yeah and of course he would say that he's he's standing up for truth and justice here that he was misrepresented and he wanted to strike a blow for decent standards in in the media.

42:04Well sure but his statement in response. And therefore it's worth the money. I know but can I just say his statement into response to this court judgment it's a whitewash yeah is it's laughably i just keep coming back to the exorbitant cost because it seems like these celebrity trials are a bit like blockbuster hollywood movies and presidential elections there's no rhyme or reasons the amount spent the amounts are spent in order to spend the amounts yeah so that you can say it's a big trial it's a big movie it's an important election yeah but it had there is something about it which actually makes one feel physically sick i mean i don't want to you know like one's mother always used to say at dinner there are people starving in the world when you pushed your peas around the plate but there is something to this isn't there yes harry is the head of charities which are doing excellent work helping people in very deprived parts of the world and here vast amounts of money are being spent in order to bring down the mail no just there's But then he would argue, to be fair, he would argue, I'm doing this as this kind of David and Goliath.

43:09Although if you've got Moseley's millions and you've got Sir Elton John and others in your stable... It's David with a massive golden slingshot, isn't it? Exactly. But he was saying, I'm trying to do this so that the little people don't get turned over by newspapers like Mail and indeed other tabloids. The question now is, I wonder how much of this bill he's actually going to foot. But is Uncle Elton, who I assume has got considerably more money than Harry and Meghan, is he going to step in and cover everyone? I mean, Baroness Lawrence is obviously not a multimillionaire, nowhere near it. So one assumes that she's not going to be held personally liable for any of these costs, because why would you when you've got other much more wealthy people in the claim?

43:53Liz Hurley, again, not short of a few bob. It's just going to be interesting to know how this is all going to be divided up and how it now affects Harry and Meghan's output because they've been dumped by most of the people that they had done deals with, including Netflix, etc. That's why they've had to launch that brand as ever. That's why she's out flogging jam and all the rest of it. You make it sound like she's standing by the side of the road with a sign that says, jam, one pound a jar. It's only a matter of time. If you go down that road, you know, Santa Barbara to LA. Wouldn't this encourage them to stay away from the UK?

44:27I mean, isn't this the last roll of the dice? I mean, they've tried to correct the record. They've failed. Isn't it better now just to accept that you've been, once the court system has passed a verdict? Because what this verdict sort of says is you're wrong about everything. What it says is people have been really rude about you. That's true. But none of it was illegal. No. And isn't that their argument against... Also, we've got revelations, by the way. Isn't that their rage against the human race they believed that something really unjust was done to them. And this seems to quite definitively say, no, it wasn't.

45:00And also, by the way, I just, to be a fly on the wall in Montecito when Harry heads home, because there is this extraordinary story involving the male journalist Charlotte Griffiths, and she has laid bare the WhatsApp messages that she exchanged with Harry back in the day where he claimed never to fraternise with journalists. then he's she's made this claim about him putting a white pill on her tongue um at a party could have been a tick to i mean it could have been how many times have i put a mint in your mouth yeah down at our desk the message i get the message um no um but so this is all and this is the thing now just for the dynamic of the marriage i just want to make this point yeah the duchess of Sussex wasn't particularly in favour of all this.

45:48She didn't accompany him to any of these court cases, right? And now the whole thing's blown up in his face. So he's had a horrible time here. This has not been a good holiday for him. He's come to Blighty. He's been snubbed by his father. He's had no palace to stay in. He's now lost a court case. He's facing his share in a 50 million pound bill and he's going to have to go back to megan and explain all this yeah and i just so at this point okay this might surprise you i'm starting to feel a modicum of sympathy for oh really right okay well you should do a whip round around the office raise a few pennies i just think the i think basic rule in life is never sue i'm sure people have said that to you many times they said it to me as well many times just don't sue just never do and partly aside from the cost which we've discussed it's also what you raised there about other things then come out because people defend themselves and by so doing they then call your your character even more into question so whatever you were upset about someone calling you 10 years ago yeah if you sue worse is going to be put into the public domain it's never worth doing and to bring this entire podcast full circle you know these are two different cases where the proponents should have listened to the late queen ah yeah never complain never explain yeah keep your mouth shut and move on and people do learn that it's not worth it once they when people finally figure out that they're not going to get a rise out of you they will stop it's like being in the playground you know if if bullies realize that you're not going to cry they will move on to somebody who might um now uh just on the weakest link i got three maths questions i'm just going to tell you that i don't think that's a spoiler right i'm not going to tell you how i answered them but can you even begin to imagine how somebody as functionally enumerate as me coped with doing mental arithmetic live on well not live but on recorded TV under time pressure.

47:54It was horrific. And you and I had a similarly uncomfortable experience earlier this week when we brought the former Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt, into the studio to explain Burn-a-mon-my. Burn-a-nomics. Thank you so much. And that is going to be our podcast tomorrow. So if you're wondering whether R. Andy is actually going to bankrupt Britain, brace yourself because we will reveal the answer to that question at 5pm tomorrow.

48:46We'll see you next time. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears. And when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. Acast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.