From motorhomes to £2k pepper pots: Inside Sturgeon's husband's eye-watering embezzling

0:03The Telegraph.

0:09Camilla: It's the scandal to end all scandals. Nicola Sturgeon's estranged husband admits to embezzling over 400 grand from the SNP to pay for everything from a bread bin to a motorhome. But now Nicola Sturgeon herself is under pressure to explain what she knew or didn't know about Peter Murrell's Carousel of Goodies. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Tim Stanley.

0:45Camilla: Tim, you're appropriately in linen. I am. It's good to see. It's far too hot. It's very bride's head. It's insanely hot. It's too hot. Did you sleep last night? Another Brexit failure. It's Brexit's fault. Leave the EU and you get Spanish weather. Makes no sense. Should you and I open a vineyard somewhere near your place, down in the Garden of England? It's not actually Brexit's fault. According to the Conservatives, it's Robert Jenrick's fault. I love this. Conservatives pledged to reverse the air con ban. As Britain swelters in record heat, the Conservatives point the finger at net zero building regulations banning air con devised by then Conservative Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick in 2021.

1:24Camilla: The press release goes on to just say it's all Jenrick's fault. I'm not sure. Seemingly forgetting. I'm not sure that's the win that the Conservative Party thinks it is. Because that would be a Conservative government failure involving Robert Jenrick. Also, Rob, it seems, is such a player in politics that he wrote all of Tory policy for the last 10 years. Yes. He likes to distance himself from Tory policy. And now he's got into a row, by the way, with his own comrade, Zia Yusuf, over deportation. and I don't think Yusuf likes the Tories in his midst, does he? No, no, I think he'd like to have them renditioned out of the party.

2:01Camilla: There is tension there. Just out of interest, are you a person who sleeps in a bed with a fan blowing directly onto you? It's tricky, isn't it? Because on the one hand, I hate the heat. On the other hand, I hate the... Yes. ...of the fan. I'm finding that I'm waking up at about half five when the daylight suddenly pours in like a volcano. Sure. So I'm really struggling with sleep at night. Well, we had to have both windows. We've got like the bathroom window and our window to just have a free flow of air. But then it meant that there was a dawn chorus that woke me up. Then I had an eye mask on that was basically strangling me.

2:35Camilla: Just enough already. My dog, of course, I lie awake worrying about because I'm thinking, is he burning up in there? He's like sleeping with his legs in the air. He has his own little room. But every time I go into the room, it's really cool. He's somehow got himself the coolest room in the house. Maybe you should get into his crate with him. There's still time. I tell you what, it's getting hot for us, but it's getting hot for Nicola Sturgeon, isn't it? Well, not in Scotland. Actually, it's really cool in Scotland. Someone offered me, someone suggested I go up this week and I kind of wish I had done it.

3:07Well, possibly. It's about 24 up there at the moment. It's beautiful. If the trains run.

3:10Camilla: There's a story on the website suggesting that the trains have said, no, enough's enough. It's too hot. It's too hot to drive a train. Yes. And that's why we need to be giving them record-breaking pay rises, according to Mick Lynch, who I interviewed last week, If you haven't caught it, do catch up because it's very entertaining. Apparently, when you mention mass migration, you are, ergo, a racist and a bigot. But back to Peter Murrell of the SNP. So this is a bit of a shock, isn't it? It's been rumbling on for years and years. And it's come to a head now that Murrell, age 61, has pleaded guilty to embezzlement.

3:42Camilla: And it's nearly half a million quid from the SNP. £400 ,310.65. And being Scottish, that 65 pence makes all the difference. We will get letters for that. A top cop... They're very careful with their pennies. There's nothing wrong with that. Indeed. Let's quote a top cop who said Murrell had diverted the cash from the SNP to, quote, bankroll the lavish lifestyle he craved but could not afford. He was first arrested in April 2023 as part of Operation Branch Form. Ridiculous name. Isn't it? Why don't they have better names, these operations? It makes me think of the day-to-day Operation Daisy Bird.

4:20Camilla: Yes, exactly. Operation Spick and Span. That was the Police Scotland probe into the funding and finances of the SNP. He was charged with embezzlement one year later, and now I think there were fears of a trial exposing all sorts of things. We're not now going to have one because he's pleaded guilty. A full narrative of facts will be heard in court when the case is called again on June 2nd. OK, so we get a kind of quasi-public investigation investigation or at least some findings because people were worried that without a trial we wouldn't find out more what did he buy good grief tim there's quite a list here it's it's like a wedding list yes it's like an aristocrat's wedding list you know when you go along and you're invited to go on the fortnum and mason's website and start buying a teapot for 400 quid and you're thinking hang on a minute is there are there any spoons for 20 quid the most famous thing of course was the Neesman and Bischoff motorhome using£124 ,550 of SNP funds.

5:23Camilla: Which he famously parked outside his mother's house. Right, exactly. I mean, presumably there wasn't enough driveway space at the Sturgeons. Right. So he just kept that out of view, strangely. So it's really the motorhome that's the famous one, but what really strikes me about the list is how many of the items on it are quite banal. Yes. So they include a Joseph Joseph bread bin, socks, bike toolkit. In fact, I think what we ought to do is we ought to play the generation game. Okay. So what I'm going to do... You be Brucey, or would you prefer... What was the other chap called? Are you a Brucey man, or are you the...

6:01I prefer Larry Grayson.

6:02Camilla: Of course you do. Shut that door. Shut that door. Right, you be Larry Grayson, and I'll be a contestant. Is that what you're proposing? Yeah, what I'm proposing is, is I read you the list of items. Right. that Peter Murrell bought. Yes. And then when I'm done, you tell me how many you can remember and you take home those items that you can recall. Imagine the items. Although you'll require a shopping jolly. Indeed. So here we go. This is hard. It's hot. I've got to remember stuff. OK, go on. OK. Yeah. A motorhome. A coffee machine. A telescope. A manicure set. A bread bin. A model helicopter. An egg poacher set.

6:43The board game Monopoly. A library ladder. A bottle opener. A musical advent calendar. Sherlock Holmes' The Complete Collection. Galway crystal glasses. An electric shaver. A toolbox. A Dyson lamp. Estee Launder candles. And a picnic hamper. OK, ready.

7:09Camilla: Motorhome, electric shaver, egg poacher. Sherlock Holmes set, picnic hamper, toolbox, Estee Lauder something or other. Yep.

7:27God, this is hard.

7:30Camilla: This is hard. Something about a lamp. There were some lamps.

7:38Camilla: Pen. Something about a pen.

7:43Camilla: producers help. Can anyone remember anything? Oh, I've been told they can't help. Gosh, that's hard. There's one more. Come on. I said shaver. Yeah. Candle holders. Just making stuff up now. OK. What have I missed? Don't say haggis. If you're going to make things up, don't say haggis. Haggis. I think your time is up. Kilt. Mullupkin tile. I know. OK, well done. No, you got almost all of them. In fact, because it's so hot, I kind of lost track of what you hadn't said. No, I know. But it was Estee Launder candles. Yes. And Galway crystal glasses. Oh, the Galway crystal. Come on, that's basic. But as I said, the striking thing is how they're both really big and really small.

8:33Yes. And a really good example of that is in January 2020, he forked out for two pepper and salt grinders from Lalique. that cost him£2 ,618.16. That is extraordinary. So that's insanely expensive. But at the same time, he bought a copy of a book for£22.04 called Women Hold Up Half the Sky. Do you know who that book is by?

9:04Camilla: Let me hazard a guess. Is it by his wife? It's by Nicola Sturgeon. Oh, my God. Why is she only holding up half the sky? He bought... I don't know. Typical woman. She's doing the job. Half a job. Can't be bothered to do the whole job. She doesn't stay in the kitchen. They leave it up to the men. Trying all this politics. They leave it up to the men to hold up the other half. Maybe if she wasn't trying to have it all, she can hold up the whole sky. We've got so much to do. We've got rivers to dam, we've got earth to till, and there we are having to help you hold up half the bloody sky. But it's just so funny that he bought his estranged wife's book.

9:37Now, I've written books. Can you say, I've written books. and my bookshelves are like a thousand copies of my own book.

9:44Camilla: Yeah, it's not hard to find one of your own books. You can even sign it for people. In fact, could I please have a signed copy of your book? Right. On Hollywood. We can have one of the rare unsigned ones. Sorry, I'm just looking at Oak Library Ladder for a grand. Yeah. And then where's the onesie? Hang on a minute. Let me just find it. Men's Slouch Pouch onesie. The comfortable houseware was billed for 76 quid. Yeah. Jeez. It's extraordinary, isn't it? But he must have looked good. Four winter coats,£560 from Helly Henson. Yes. Oh, the world as it is, inside the Obama White House. Right. An antique-look book embossing press, which allows you to personalise your home library.

10:27This one cost£71.99.

10:31Camilla: He also had Fascism, a warning by Madeleine Albright. Now, now... His copy cost£10.19. Now, obviously, all this is on Peter Morrill. Yes. It's his responsibility. Yes. But Camilla, if you came home one day... I know where you're going. ..and you found a motorhome on the drive... Yes. ..you found your husband sitting inside wearing a new winter jacket with his embossing press... Yes. ..his crystal glasses... Yes. ..playing his new game of Monopoly... Yes. ..with a copy of your book on his lap, which you know you didn't give him. No. You might be asking questions, mightn't you? you might also be saying, this salt and pepper cellar's quite nice.

11:09Camilla: Yes. Looks a bit luxe. Oh, it costs two grand. Is that a good use of the household finances? You may be asking. You may ask. And we don't want to comment either way because who knows what Nicola Sturgeon did or did not ask, knew or did not know. But I know, from my own personal experience, if you come home and, you know, like a partner is reading a new book. You go. You just say, what's the book? What's that book you're reading? Shall we read out Nicola Sturgeon's, not one but two statements in response to this? Yes, I think we must. We must, I think. Today the media is reporting details of items that my former husband has now admitted buying with SMP funds.

11:48Camilla: By the way, they're in the process of divorcing, so he's estranged rather than ex at this stage. I have seen questions raised about how I could not have known about this. I want to reiterate that I had no knowledge or suspicion whatsoever that personal items had been purchased using SMP funds. I was cleared of any wrongdoing after a lengthy and thorough investigation. In relation to many of the items in question, for example, expensive watches and games consoles, I was not aware of them having been purchased at all. It wasn't her playing Call of Duty. I think we should clarify that right now. At least not at home.

12:24Camilla: Might have been playing it in the Scottish Parliament. Or London, where she spends most of her time, it seems. No, no. Indeed, in relation to the item of largest value, a camper van, I was not aware of its existence until it featured in the police investigation in early 2023. Nor was it parked in our driveway, as has been claimed by some. Yes, to be fair, it was parked in her mother-in-law's driveway. She also said in an Instagram story that she was angry, hurt, sad and very distressed about the impact of his actions on family, friends and the SNP. To be deceived and let down by a husband I loved and trusted has caused me acute pain.

13:01Why he acted as he did is, and always will be, beyond my comprehension.

13:06Camilla: I'd like a bit more comprehension. She talks about comprehension. I'd like to comprehend precisely why she didn't know any of all this. I would like to comprehend whether Nicola noticed or did not notice a brand new dressing table and tea set that cost£3 ,192. Yes, I'd like to know that too. I'd like to know whether she smelt the Estee Lauder cancels. Yeah, I mean, one possible answer is there was a power cut for several months. Yes. And she was staggering around the house, not knowing what it was she was bumping into. In a tartan dressing gown. But literally on the candles thing, like that's another thing within a house, isn't it?

13:47Camilla: I mean, if I light a candle, which women tend to do, I mean, this is a male thing, presumably. But if I light a candle, then usually my husband starts making a huge fuss and saying, what's that god awful smell? Yeah, start coughing. And I'm like, this is the candle that I made you buy me at Christmas from the white company for a not inconsiderable sum. And he'll go, bloody hell. It stinks. The whole house stinks. So it's like a scent in a home is something that you do notice. Christmas must be very hard, actually, with Peter Murrell, because what do you give the boy who has everything? Indeed.

14:20Camilla: What do you buy him? Just a little badge with I've got everything written on it, perhaps. So I think we probably do need to know more. We're not going to benefit from a full trial where that would be further investigated, although, as Nicola Sturgeon says, she was the subject of a lengthy and thorough investigation and, indeed, no wrongdoing was found on her behalf. But shall we speak to somebody who is agitating for this to be looked at in rather more detail? The Deputy Leader of Scottish Labour, Jackie Bailey, joins us now. Lovely to see you, Jackie. Tim and I have just been discussing in Generation Game format this extraordinary shopping list of Peter Murrells.

15:05Camilla: What's your reaction to what we've heard about his conduct in the last 24 to 48 hours? I mean, it is quite extraordinary, but this has been going on for years and the police investigation, along with the Crown Office, has cost us millions of pounds and taken years before we actually had a day in court for Peter Murrell. Of course, this court appearance was delayed until after the Scottish Parliament election. And many people are quite rightly asking questions about that, because Peter Murrell declaring himself guilty of embezzling£400 ,000 from the SNP would have made headline news before the election and might well have made a difference.

15:50But I think the thing that surprises everybody is the shopping list that you've described. You know, everything from household goods to jewellery, shopping at Harrods, Fortnum & Masons. We're talking about high-end shops that would be completely unaffordable to most ordinary people. And what we have here is embezzlement on a grand scale. Now, there are lots of people asking questions about what the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon knew. She, of course, was married to Peter Morrill, and this embezzlement was taking place under her nose, both in the party and in her own home. People are suggesting that there are questions that she needs to answer, because, of course, she benefited from some of this activity with jewellery, makeup, expensive pens.

16:44I mean, who on earth has a salt and pepper mill worth£2 ,500? I mean, it's just extraordinary. And I think that's what is defying people's understanding of what happened and the scale of the fraud that has been visited on the SNP by the former chief executive. Jackie, you suggest that the timing has been fortuitous for the SNP because this has come out after the elections. Fair enough. Had it come out before, it may well have had an impact. But the story was broadly known about for a long time. The SNP has many things working against it in its record in Scotland. Why, despite the many years it's been in power, despite its tumbling reputation, why could you still not beat it?

17:32And why did they still do so well in the recent elections? Well, let me challenge the notion that they did well, because actually their vote share dropped by 10 percent. This was a Scottish Parliament election where turnout was 53 percent. So 47 percent of the country didn't bother to come out and vote and they lost six MSPs. It is the case that Labour didn't do as well as we wanted to do. It was undoubtedly in part due to the fact that the electorate here were unhappy with the UK Labour government and unhappy with the prime minister. We've acknowledged that. But equally, there were faults in our campaign that we should have adjusted.

18:16But the reality is, as long as you have constitutional division that frames your politics, then the floor for the SNP, for those that believe in independence, is always much higher. That said, if I was an independent supporter today, I would hesitate to donate to the SNP in any shape or form, given that the money they previously donated was embezzled by the chief executive. Of course, the chief executive, Peter Murrow, was appointed by none other than John Swinney, the current first minister. And both he and Nicola Sturgeon, you know, when the police started their investigation, were both interviewed on television saying there was nothing to see here.

18:59Everything was fine with the accounts. And that turned out to be patently not true. So there are questions that need to be answered, both by the former first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, and the current one, John Swinney.

19:12Camilla: How could that happen, Jackie? Because now Peter Murrell has given a guilty plea. We obviously won't have the forensic process that would have occurred in a trial, picking through the evidence and trying to find out who knew what when or indeed what they didn't know. How could the system sort of coalesce to try and get further answers from both Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney and any other associated parties? Well, I think Parliament needs to consider its options, but equally there are calls already for inquiries and questions requiring answers. So far, we've not been satisfied with that. The press have been diligent in pursuing this.

19:58And of course, we couldn't talk about it in advance of the election whilst there were live proceedings in the courts. Now, next week, there is a narrative that will be presented by both the Crown Office and the Defence to try and explain and understand why Peter Murrow did what he did. I think that following that, people will consider what to do next. This is by no means the end of the story. It's the beginning of trying to make the SNP, which is known in Scotland for its scandal, its sleaze and its secrecy, to finally have a bit of truth and honesty. Because not least, it's not just the Scottish public deserve it.

20:40Those individuals who donated money to the SNP deserve to have answers. And I believe they should be compensated for the amount that they put in. But I keep coming back, Jackie, to my point that if this party is known for its scandal and its sleaze, why is it still outperforming you? To put it another way, why is the case for the union apparently so weak that people are still supporting parties, either the SNP, which is tainted with scandal, or the Green Party, which is run by lunatics, rather than coalescing around perfectly sane, moderate mainstream parties such as yourself? I think you'll find in constituencies across Scotland that did in fact happen in my own, for example, which I have served in since 1999.

21:27There is a coalition of voters that has been built up that are actually anti the SNP and anti-independence. The reality is that needs to happen in more constituencies across Scotland. But the truth is, as I said before, the SNP didn't do well. This is their lowest vote share in government for a long time. And it's delivered six fewer MSPs and it's delivered a 10 % drop in their vote. You know, on a 50 % turnout, I don't really think that's much of a mandate, to be frank with you. I know, but you didn't excite people. We could do better. But Jackie, you didn't excite people to come out on your side.

22:04A low turnout is a vote of no confidence, not just in the governing party, but also in the opposition. And I think what we were finding was people were scummered with politicians and with politics. And this was a general kind of, you know, we don't like any of you. So I think that there is some merit in what you say that we all failed to excite them. But the reality is the states were genuinely high. We are now about to debate this afternoon whether to have a second independence referendum rather than focusing on the people's priorities of tackling the cost of living crisis or dealing with the NHS.

22:41You know, that's the problem when you elect a nationalist government. They put their party before the country's interests. And that's what we're about to see this afternoon.

22:51Camilla: Jackie Bailey, Deputy Leader of Scottish Labour, thank you for joining us on today's Daily Tea. Thank you. Coming up next, the latest from the historic by-election at Makerfield.

23:25We'll see you next time. growth comes easy experience one place for all your hcm needs start now at paylocity.com

23:45Camilla: tim we have the full list of candidates for the maker field by-election which has been announced will take place on june the 18th we obviously have andy burnham our andy for labor robert kenyon for reform. Michael Wynne Stanley for the Conservatives. Jake Austin for the Liberal Democrats. Sarah Wakefield for the Greens. Rebecca Shepard for Restore Britain. Alan Howling Lord Hope for the Monster Raving Loony Party. And Robert Pownall, who's running as an Independent. It should be pointed out that the Green Party candidate is a replacement. So Sarah Wakefield is now running after their previous candidate.

24:21Camilla: He had suggested that the Golders Green attacks, the anti-Semitic attacks were a, quote, false flag. So we once again had Greens in anti-Jew shock, and he announced that he was withdrawing hours after he was announced, citing personal reasons. Yeah, well, they are very personal reasons. They're personal reasons. Unfortunately, you can't run because you've been grotesquely inappropriate. So he's out of the race and now Sarah Wakefield is in. In fact, it's proving difficult in this day and age to find candidates who've not said things in the past which are either outrageous or contradict the party's current message.

24:59Take Robert Kenyon. He is the plumber who's been nominated by reform and has been driving around the constituency with Nigel Farage. It turns out from old social media posts that he might not have supported Brexit and he might in fact have been a fan of European freedom of movement. He wrote at one point, so anyone who thinks I love Trump, voted Brexit, read the Daily male, live in the 1950s, a Tory and 103 is wrong. I'm none of the above.

25:28Camilla: Weirdly, though, Reform are now saying that Kenyon did vote for Brexit. A Reform UK spokesman previously said Kenyon, quote, voted leave in 2016 and is a proud Brexiteer, unlike Andy Burnham, who will drag the UK back into the EU by any means possible. Although I'm not sure that's the sum total of Kenyon's worries. Well, I have a feeling that those remarks about Brexit might be eclipsed by everything else he has said on social media. Yes. The same account was also said to have made a series of sexist comments about women, including posts from 2011 and 2012 in which Kenyon said, I'm a sexist. Sorry, but I am.

26:04Women can't ref, referee, drive or give directions.

26:08Camilla: And they can only hold up half the sky, Tim. Other posts appear to have spoken about European women's bodies while saying that English women don't care and just walk around with their fat bellies and odd shapes pushing a pram at 16 in their PJs He said one thing about female rugby players that he liked the way they handled their knockers Oh really? That's Farajian language if ever I heard it So in other words, Robert Kenyon is basically a bloke Well, he's a very blokey bloke He's a very 2011 bloke, let's put it that way Before we realised we weren't allowed to think these things, this is what every man thought.

26:44Camilla: Well, hang on a minute. Can I just point out, I mean, I don't mind a little bit of bants at the best of time. Yeah. Women can't ref, drive or give directions. Now, forgive me, in this little partnership of ours, who would you suggest, be honest, be honest, who would you suggest between the pair of us, we both drive minis. That's true. Who do you think drives it a little better? Well, I certainly drive it a lot slower, Camilla. There's no law against acceleration, Tim Stanley. A red light isn't a challenge, you know. But I am certain you can referee football better than me and I did fail my driving test eight times before I passed.

27:21You were eight times? Eight times before I passed, yes.

27:24Camilla: I passed my test in six weeks after I turned 17. I'm sure you did. On directions, though, I'm pretty good at map reading. So would you also agree, then, that I could probably ref a football match a little better than you? But how do you handle your knockers? Tell me what. I'm a great fan of handling knockers. But isn't the real issue... In a suitable bra. Isn't the issue here... Especially when playing rugby. There's two explanations here. One is that the new parties attract fringe candidates. Yes. And bad candidates. And that's what the Tories and Labour would have us believe. Although I'd remind you that in the distant past, Wes Streeting fantasised about pushing a female Daily Mail journalist under a train.

28:04That was Jan Moyer. So is the issue the parties themselves? Or is it that nowadays, given that all adults have lived their lives publicly online for the last 10, 15 years, is it possible to find anyone, or at least a proper human being, who hasn't said something daft?

28:21Camilla: Well, we might have said something daft, but I think something outrageous. I mean, you and I put some funny stuff on X, but we're not saying anything sexist or racist. No, no, and I'd like to think that's because I'm neither sexist nor racist. Well, yeah, there is that. But one reason why they're sort of pushing Robert Kenyon is precisely because he's a normal working class plumber. Yes. And I'm sorry, but I think you'll find most normal working class plumbers feel strongly that women rugby players handle their knockers well. Well, I know. And also, funny enough, the most obnoxious views of all, frankly, have been expressed by Andy Burnham on the whole trans women are women.

29:01Camilla: You know, women can have penises, fully throated Kool-Aid drinking that he indulged in when the trans wars broke out around a decade ago and is now rapidly backpedalling away from. I mean, I find that absolutely insulting. I wrote my column on Saturday. Just to finish the point, do read it. He owes the women of the UK a huge and grovelling apology because while the rest of us were saying, no, Andy, and all of your ilk that are jumping on these bandwagons, it jumps on the BLM bandwagon as soon as it's launched, jumps on this, jumps on that, now trying to massively distance himself from his own absolutely preposterous position.

29:41Camilla: Could you just turn round? Now we've got the suit. You had plenty of time, dude. You had plenty of time to revise the whole any bloke can turn up at any single sex space with no certification at all and say they're a woman. You actually advocated that. We talked about Nicola Sturgeon. This was Nicola Sturgeon on steroids as far as pro-trans extremism was concerned. And now you think you can turn around at the weekend and say, oh, actually, I think we should all respect the Supreme Court judgment. Well, you didn't. You could have changed your mind when the Cass report suggested that we were literally abusing a whole generation of children with puberty blockers and realignment surgery.

30:19Camilla: But no, Andy, only now, because it's politically expedient, have you changed your tune because the good people of Bakerfield, including plumbers, thought it was all a load of absolute nonsense in the first place. rant over. I find that, frankly, more obnoxious. I agree. And some of these comments. And Burnham's views are the product of a mix of cowardice and wokery. Whereas Kenyon's views are just, if these are his views, being a bit of a Neanderthal. Well, a mixture of ignorance and stupidity. Right. OK. So it's a choice between cowardice and grossness. Yes. I'm not saying we have to choose one.

30:53Camilla: I mean, could we perhaps have somebody that hasn't come out with... But look at Donald Trump. Grab them by the X, right? Okay, I know. Mike, I come back to what we have learned is people nowadays project what they think into the public domain. So we now know what they think in a way we never knew before. And the public has become very good at picking through and saying, that outrageous comment matters, that one doesn't. Yes. And I think in a way, on balance, the outrageous opinions of Kenyon from 10 years ago, I think matter less than Andy Burnham's opinions. Yes. Because he's running not just to be an MP, but Prime Minister.

31:33Camilla: Yes, that's right. Shall we just have a quick chat about Restore Britain and the effect that Rupert Lowe's party may have on the Makerfield by-election, not least because Mr Lowe will be joining us in the Daily Tea studio on Monday, Tim. Yes. Do you remember when I asked Faraj in one of the press conferences that we've attended, you know, the threat from Restore, and he was very dismissive. And he was like, oh, they're polling. Doesn't matter. Who are they? They're polling at 1%. Asterix in the polls. Exactly. Well, we've always said, because we had heard it from kind of reform insiders, that they were starting to get quite worried when Restore was polling at around 3 % because they thought that that was the margin that could cost reform a majority at the next general election.

32:12Camilla: We now learn, I think it's from Find Out Now, that Restore Britain are on 7 % potentially in Makerfield. And now they've got Elon Musk backing them, which obviously is significant when it comes to kind of the social media effect of this campaign. That's tricky, isn't it? Because, I mean, we'll put this to Mr. Lowe directly. But what we've basically got here is a kind of quite preposterous spat between two righties that agree with each other on all of the fundamentals. Now, at war with each other, the result possibly being that they allow Burnham to become the next prime minister. And apparently this is all great for democracy.

32:52Yeah. I mean, the question is, can you guys keep it together on the right? Can the new populist movement beat not just on the basis of arguments and votes, but also beat on the basis of discipline? And this looks like you can't. I mean, is this not the mirror image of Labour with Greens and your party? Yes. It's exactly the same phenomenon. It's like when you break away from a church, it never stops there. The sect always splits into another sect. People always discover a new prophet. And the church that's broken away starts to become smaller and smaller and more obsessed with the very particular doctrinal disagreements they have with next door sect.

33:29And it just feels like a replay of that. Having said that, though, there are questions that Nigel Farage has to answer. Even if Restore only took, let's say, three to five percent of the vote, why couldn't you nail down 100 percent of the anti-Labor populist vote in that constituency? What is it about you that a small but significant number of people have said, I don't trust you and I don't like you?

33:55Camilla: Well, what's weird as well is for those further to the right of reform who are opting for restore, yes, the explanation of that could be that demographically Makerfield is 97 % white. But then you'd think they'd be more motivated to vote for Lowe if, for instance, that constituency was full of migrant hotels or there'd been some issue there, like there has been in, say, Epping or Epsom. There isn't. So it could be that vote because they're wanting to stop migrant hotels from coming into the seat. Well, they're concerned about the general state of their country, right? And there was a guy who was interviewed, it went big on Twitter, who gave this very lengthy explanation of why he supports reform.

34:38And there is a coherent worldview there. It is not just reactionary, I don't like Asian people in my area kind of politics. There's something else going on. And I think it comes back to what we've discussed on this program before, that we grew up in a world in which parties were coalitions and you voted in large part for who you didn't want to win. So you might vote conservative because for all their faults, I want to keep Labour out and the Tories will give me 50 % of what I want. Growing numbers of people are now consumers who pick parties they want. Yes. And they don't even care if it means they get a worse outcome because they want that thing.

35:17and restore speaks to that. And it's still a very small proportion of the populist electorate. But reform, I don't think, can just go around attacking them. There are comments linked to their activists which should be very damaging. But as we've just been discussing with Robert Kenyon and Andy Burnham, actually they're not. Voters are going to dismiss things that have been said in the past. So it's not enough just to say restore is a bunch of racists. I think you've got to try and figure out why are we bleeding some support to them and what can we do to reassure those people and win them back?

35:49Camilla: Farage is moderated because he wants to win over Waitrose Woman. And I don't think it's even a question of moderating. I think it's that he is at risk of appearing to slip into easy cliché. Yeah. Because, as you say, he doesn't want to offend people. I know, but he's got to unite that difficult caucus, which is blue wall and red wall. Boris Johnson managed it because the, okay, some thought he was a buffoon, but the old Etonian in him did appeal to some more moderate conservative voters. Yes. Because there was some shades of libdemery about the man, let's be perfectly honest, intensely relaxed about mass migration.

36:23Agree. And I doubt Nigel can reach into enough of those voters to compensate for the loss to restore. So he's really got to shore up the populist thing. But Robert Kenyon, the campaign from the outside looks heavy on visuals, as I've said of him driving around and waving at people and telling people to get out. Restore type people are people who want to hear specifics and say tell me how many people you're going to deport and how are you going to do it. And as you mentioned earlier, just this morning there's been a row between Generic and Zia over whether or not they're going to use ICE style raids.

36:56Camilla: Yeah. Maybe Ken, you should just go around to people tempted to vote for Restore and fix their leaky caps. Genuinely. You'd be like, actually I will vote for you. Thank you very much. A quick word on Starmer. He's accepting his time in Number 10 is coming to an end, including to the Observer, although there's counter-evidence to that saying even if Burnham wins, it might not be the end. So as ever, we don't really know. Starmer's a push-by-pull-you. And where is he even at? It's not over for him if Burnham loses. That's why this by-election is so important. It could save the Prime Minister. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

37:37Thank you.