George Finch: The teenage Reform council leader taking on the ‘blob’

0:02The Telegraph.

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2:05Camilla: This sign in Warwickshire County Council used to read conservatives, but like many areas of the UK, reform are taking over. We are speaking to the youngest ever leader of a council, George Finch, just 19 years old, about flags, budgets, the views of the young, and the future of reform. And I want to tell you more about how Reform UK are going to make a success out of Warwickshire County Council and to tell you how Nigel Farage is going to make it to Prime Minister in 2029.

2:44George, Warwickshire County Council, budget of over£400 million, employs around 5 ,000 people. you're 19. How do you justify, how can you say you're experienced enough to govern such an extraordinary large body? The only three qualifications you need as council leader is to have confidence of the people to vote you in as councillor, the confidence then of the group to vote you in as group leader and the confidence of the council to vote you in as leader of the council. They're the only three qualifications you need to be leader of the council. It's not a one-man band here. I'm not doing everything myself.

3:21I'm not ignorant or arrogant enough to say that. We've got a cabinet, Stephen Shaw, the deputy, finance and property. We work with all cabinet. And this is the thing. It's not a one-man band, and it never would be. I'm trying to remember what it was like, how I felt when I was your age. And if I was given that responsibility, even if you had the team around you, I would just be terrified. I mean, I have a fridge that's older than you.

3:49Camilla: I have several dresses. To be fair, George, I'm looking at your birth date here, 2006. My oldest child was born two years later than you, so I could literally be your mum, as creepy as that sounds. And many of our readers and audience could be your grandmother. But are we being ageist? Is all of this obsession about you being 19 slightly ageist? I mean, what's your reaction to it? I wouldn't go down that locus path of going it's ageist. I just say it's completely irrelevant. We've got a job to do that's bigger than everybody, no matter what age or experience, it's bigger than us all. I'm in charge of 600 ,000 people.

4:26That's the population of Warwickshire. And they're the people that we actually have to look out for. Like I say in all of my committees, it's not about me, it's about you, the other councillors. It's about the people out there that we represent. So when people are throwing around, oh, it's age this, age that, it's irrelevant, you're wasting time. We haven't got time to be sat around a table and go, oh he's too young he's a leader end of you won't complain about a 70 year old being president of the united states or even older now you're not going to complain about that because he's doing a job if you're doing a good job that's all that matters yeah yeah were you one of these children

5:00Camilla: that was sort of born in a suit and tie you're old before your time you're 11 going on 25 you are very well dressed by the way i feel older than i am yeah but no no i was born in a small town in Warwickshire, Bedworth, working class town. You know, we didn't have the luxuries of two cars, a holiday a year. That's not us. My mum worked in a factory and she trained up to be a hairdresser, then thought that's not bringing enough income in to support a family. So she trained day and night in a college to be a teaching assistant for one-to-one kids. Now she works there. That's what we all need to strive for.

5:44Families like that. My dad owned his own carpentry business. He had sepsis, got ill. But I know the complexities of a completely odd family going from just a regular family to then having a son that's leader of a council. I've seen waiting rooms in A &E for eight hours or longer. My sister's got FND, functional neurological disorder. She'll lose function of her arms and legs just like that. I get it. I've been in hospital waiting rooms. I've been in wards where there's children self-harming, not being ill, and I've seen it all. And that's the experience a lot of politicians don't have. And that's the point.

6:25They're going to make policy on NHS and education, but they're not actually sat in a waiting room for eight hours. They don't know what it's like to see the elderly woman being wielded in a wheelchair with a gash on her head because she's fell over because there's no adult social care. I've seen that, and I know the sticking points. I know how we can try and solve that. But you've got people in government that are completely out of depth with what they're actually doing. Joe, it's very disappointing that we've actually got to this stage that we're relying on people that are leading the government that have no clue what's going on.

6:59It's ridiculous. And I guess there are a lot of 40-year-olds who don't have that life experience or understand that, as well as a 19-year-old. I had a lady, she was on an interview, I think it was ITV, and they said, you know, about a 19-year-old, and she said, oh, my 40-year-old son can't even run a bath. And I thought, that doesn't reflect bad on me. That's bad on you. Bad pay can't even... You 40-year-old son can't run a bath. God, what's the matter with you? But one reason why some people watching might be sceptical is because so many people have just gone straight from school to university to politics.

7:32And they might look at a 19-year-old getting elected and thinking, oh, no, another career politician who just wanted to be a politician. No. So how are you different? Are you here by accident? No, no, no, look. Look, it's simple. Look at my majority. I've got a 1 ,100 majority, the biggest reform majority in Warwickshire. People in Bedwith Central voted for a young councillor because I was there from 11 o 'clock in the morning till 7 at night speaking to people day in, day out, listening. There's too many talking, too much talking and not enough listening. And that's the problem. that's the problem we've got in this day and age there's too many people all ages all experienced they're just doing too much talking and not a lot not a lot of listening and this is the point is we sit around the table and i'm not calling all the shots doing everything because i can't so if i'm sat in a meeting regarding hospitality sector i will speak to the hospitality advisor that we're going to get or speak to people on the ground speak to pub owners managers listening is the main skill here.

8:35And that's just what the whole country's forgot to listen.

8:38Camilla: So tell us about your journey then, because you wanted to be a history teacher. You tried out uni but found it too woke and left. Is that right? It was a complete nightmare. Why? Which university was it? Leicester. Leicester is a good uni. You know, really, really focused on getting the best grade for their students. But it was the attitude of university. What really threw me off straight away is they had an astrophysics lecture. Nothing to do with me, but you hear it in the university that these free Palestinians went in, kind of held hostage this lecture hall, screaming free, free Palestine, because they were learning one tiny subsection of a module on interconnected ballistic missiles.

9:28Right. And they're like, you're going to send those to Palestine and Israel. The world's gone mad. Then they did criminal damage and sprayed graffiti on the wall. Then when they come into the history and the politics lecture, the lecturer was like, oh, it's a shame what the chancellor, they've let them get arrested. We need to write a letter to the chancellor to fight this and get them released. They've just committed criminal damage. But the point is that unis are just too busy about how people feel and how they, oh, it's all about their feelings. We need people that know, oh, I feel this. It's I think this and this is what I want to do.

10:05And you sit in all the education establishments we've got. There's too many people, too many kids being asked, oh, are you okay today? Or, oh, how do you feel? How do you feel about learning this? Are you sure if we can do this, do that? You're in a class to learn. Get your grades, then you can leave. University should be a beacon of freedom of speech. It should be a place where you can feel, to express, to be able to say what you want to say and not be shouted down. And what it is, it's a coercive curriculum. It's a conveyor belt for communists. And this is the problem with our universities, is they've been allowed to just get out of control.

10:47It's because they've opened the doors for uni, everyone can go, and the kids just think it's a jolly. they're out getting slammed every bloody day and they're not doing the coursework or the modules.

10:59Camilla: Well, hang on a minute, George Finch, you must have got slammed a few times. You're a young man, you must go out on the lash. There'll be nothing wrong with that as long as you can wake up the next day and do work afterwards, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. You can have a few pints in the pub or a glass of red wine and if you're working the next day and you know what you're doing, fine. But isn't it a bit weird, like the peers that you grew up with, the boys and girls that you went to school with, they're probably having... Still getting slammed. Still getting slammed. As we speak. Becoming communists.

11:25Most of them will just be waking up and having breakfast. It's half past well.

11:28Camilla: And here you are, suited and booted, running a county council. Yeah, you know, speaking to my mates, you know, mate Harry works in a chip shop, you know, but I would class him, he's been in it for four years. You know, he's doing that. You know, I've got mates, Evie, she works in a bar. You know, they're doing things that people their age do. I've just gone down a different path. You don't feel you're missing out on your teenage years? No, I've had all that. I've had all those questions. Are you missing out? No. I can still go down to the pub. I'll be with my counsellors. And it really, you know, no, I'd never say I'd miss out.

12:04You know, you've always got time to be able to go back to the real world. I'm not 100 % this all the time because I'm not a robot. I'm not a machine. That's what drives people insane. and actually then you do become a career politician, if you're not real, if you don't go to the pub and speak to people or go on the streets or speak to people, the shop owners, if you don't do that, then they're not going to vote you in because you're not real. You've gone to the ivory tower, which is Warwick, compared to the people of Bedworth. I said it on the doorstep. You will be sent to the ivory tower and they'll try and make us say what they want to say and we'll say no and we'll want to do what you ask us to do, which is why we're starting this press conference of recalibrating Warrenshire, which is based on what the people have asked us to do.

12:49One reason why I find this refreshing is because quite often when younger people are elected, they want to bang on about being young. And so the entire generation could be spoken for. But not only are you reluctant to be regarded as just a young politician, and I'm sorry we keep talking about it, but it's fascinating. It's really interesting. But you're also critical of your own generation and the way they're being raised. Are there a lot of other young people who feel the same. Should we stop assuming young people are all green and Corbynites? Is there actually a reform wave coming among that generation who are tired of being told what to think and coddled?

13:23I think what you'll see, Tim, is in six forms up and down the country, is that when you're in your politics class, there'll be young girls and young men that will sit there and they'll listen to what the teacher's got to say and then when they listen then they form their own opinions of i don't i don't agree with that why are we paying for things that x amount of people get when why don't and they'll sit there and they'll evolve and this is the problem with the education system they're putting the dampers on that evolution they're putting the dampers on actually the thought process the the growing up period of kids the playground politics the jokes they make the way they become a man or a woman that's being stopped but it'll get to a breaking point for these young people it'll get to a breaking point of these people in education where they'll go i've had enough you're you're doing you're telling us what to think and you're failing it you'll get a generation of young people that are not educated actually when they go into the real world they'll fail because they haven't got that independent thinking process they'll be straight out the convey about they'll get the they'll get the grades they'll get all the stuff and they come out of that education boom they've dropped into a sinkhole because they don't know how to ask the the canteen lady for ketchup because they're too embarrassed i've seen it all before they go george can can you ask me can you ask them to get your put vinegar on your chips grow up grow a pair do it yourself it's ridiculous and this is the problem with the work cardiology is that they're letting kids just oh no it's okay to not ask you might have anxiety No, you just need to break that barrier.

15:05Let them express themselves. And it will solve the problem itself. You just shouldn't have teachers and the curriculum holding kids down. They need to be able to freely think and voice their opinions. And if that may be wrong, so be it. But that doesn't then turn into a disciplinary action and then complaints, then being kicked out of the school. the kids, the parents need to be told to grow up frankly. You were elected on May the 1st with 62 % of the vote? Yes. Which is remarkable. Biggest majority for a reform councillor in Warwickshire. But we need to explain you were not elected as leader of the reform group, you were deputy at the time?

15:47Well, when I was elected in May, we then all went in, the 23 of us, as just councillors. and then I can't remember exactly the dates but then Rob Howard become the leader of the group and then of the council but I was voted as the deputy leader of the group and then appointed as the deputy leader of the council and then 40 days later or however many days later Rob stepped down because of health issues and then I stepped up as my constitutional powers then as interim leader and then voted in as the group leader, then as the council leader. Right. And that's a permanent thing unless something changes.

16:31So council leader, if you've got a majority, well, no. In the constitution, council leader's there for four years. Right. So in a way, yes, as a group, we vote leaders every year. if anyone wants to come up, they've got that ability to. Then if that happens, then you have to then go to full council and change it. So you are speaking, in my mind, as a kind of archetypal,

17:03Camilla: Thatcherite, Tory boy in a way, right? You know, everything you're saying about self-governance, self-reliance, get ahead, have aspiration, work hard, hard work leads to success. Why did you make the transition from being a Conservative to thinking reform was the answer? And how much influence does Nigel Farage as an individual have on your decision-making on that? So in Bedworth, in my hometown, it was originally coal mining, a miners' welfare park. Economy was based on coal mines. So we would be traditionally Labour. And my dad voted Labour, voted Jeremy Corbyn, because he didn't want Theresa May.

17:41Right. God, would he want Theresa May. But then when it went into 2019, you see the difference in the way people voted. And our town were traditionally Labour through and through, but the problem that we found with Labour is they've completely just lost self-respect and lost their complete vote base. And that's why they've imploding themselves. It's like a seed we plant as reforming to different parties for them to blow themselves up to the Tories. But when I was younger, it was in the household, as, you know, EU, what are we going to do in the referendum? And mum and dad went, well, we need to leave.

18:22And it wasn't on the basis of necessarily the economical parts of Brexit. It was more the sovereignty. Well, you go to your MP, go, oh, no, it's not me, it's Europe. Simply, they go, to Europe. And that's the problem. You need to hold your own politicians to account here and now. And that's why they voted for Brexit. That's why then they, unfortunately, like many people in the United Kingdom in 2019, were sold a pack of lies by Boris. We're going to get another ready deal. We're going to get it done. Get Brexit done. And we've seen a disaster that's alluded to Brexit. We haven't had it. It's not happened.

19:01We haven't got our proper Brexit powers that we wanted when we left.

19:05Camilla: Did mum and dad vote for Boris Johnson? Yes, they did. They voted for the Conservatives in 2019 because it was the only party that was suitable to vote to get us out of the European Union properly. Because Nigel, again, he has no ego. He stepped aside in that election to allow the bigger party that were going to do it, going to win. He allowed them to do it with the promise of you'll leave the European Union, you'll do it the way we want to do it. And Boris, again, did bumbling Boris, lied. I was going to ask George who he voted for. He wasn't old enough to vote. Can I just pick you up on one thing?

19:42Camilla: Faraj has no ego. Yeah, and the alarm bell rang when I heard that. No, honestly, I think what we see with Richard Tice, he stepped aside to allow Nigel, because he knew that Nigel can take us the next step forward. I think Nigel's the same. He allowed Boris to go, Joe, what? That's true, yeah. You do this, and we'll sit back from the sidelines. But they completely messed it up. So Nigel went, I'm the only guy to do it. And he's right. He said he's the only guy to do it. He's been banging on about this for 30 years. Nigel Farage has been the biggest political operator of the United Kingdom in the last 30 years.

20:18He's changed the course of history. One man. I think that's... I definitely can't wait for him to be Prime Minister. It's like he deserves that. After the fight he's had over the last 30 years, that is a man that actually deserves to have the title of Prime Minister. Keir Starmer doesn't. They didn't vote for him. They just didn't endorse the Tories. And he slipped through. But Nigel deserves it. The hard work he's done, the party, the mechanics of Reform UK. God, Nigel deserves it. And the hard work everybody does in this party, it's phenomenal. Does your own interest in history inform your politics?

20:58A lot of the time, yes. Because what I'd say is that we can't allow what happened in the 60s, the 70s, to allow to carry on. For instance, back then, people were allowed to... You could buy your own home. You could buy a car. Go on holiday. Young people like me, we can't. We have to really work, not just work hard, but effectively break our backs to get where we are. And that's the problem with the society that we've got now, is that the governments, Labour, Conservatives, have allowed us to go down this hole that it's going to be bloody hard to dig us out of it. And Nigel's the only guy I believe can do it.

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24:21Camilla: How much have you got a sort of Britain first attitude? Because we know you've had a row with the chief executive of the council here, Monica Fogarty, about the pride flag flying. You've insisted that the only flags that should be flying outside this building are a George's flag, a union flag, or indeed the flag of Warwickshire. We sort of saw this press conference on Tuesday at Oxford Airport I saw you there, we were both there covering this deportation plan, this Operation Restore Justice. And, of course, reform will always be tarred with their xenophobes, their racists, their bigots brush. Where do you stand on all that stuff?

24:56Well, look at Nigel. He was, again, the only person that stood up to the BNP back in the late 2000s, destroyed them. Nigel is the only man that has been fighting the far right. and he's the guy that's been doing what we need to do to actually get a sensible conversation of immigration. I was in the kitchen with my uncle and he's staunch unionist Labour Corbynite, right? Lovely bloke, but, you know. And we actually had a proper, decent conversation about immigration and he agreed with some of the things that reform was saying because it makes sense. My grandma can't get dental care, it's too expensive.

25:3550 quid, can't afford that. And you've got asylum seekers that are put up in hotels that get free dental care. If you speak to the people of Bedworth and Anita, you tell them that, you'll get your response. And it will be, we can't pay. Why? My grandma don't get it. It's not fair. And they broke their back to work hard, to get a good family, to get a roof above their heads. And what do they get for it when they're 60 and they've retired? Taxed. And hit again and hit again. Winter fuel allowance gone. What's the point? We can't be comfortable.

26:11Camilla: But on flags, George, I mean, what's the problem with the Pride flag? It wasn't the Pride flag that was the problem. It was the Progress Pride flag, which is the one that was flying above Shire Horse. How long had it been up there? Oh. Was it like a permanent presence or was it there for a month or something? No, no, no. So what was there beforehand was the Union flag, the Ukrainian flag, and that was it. So whose decision was it? So when we came in as an administration, the Union flag, Ukrainian flag, the third one was empty. Then we asked for the St. George's flag to be put up. That was hard enough, but we got it over the line.

26:56Sorry, can I just ask, when you say it's hard enough, who said no or who dragged their feet? It took a while for it to get done, and maybe that's council bureaucracy, but I doubt that. But, you know, so when it was Pride month or week or whatnot, the discussion was had with the old leader, will, can the Pride flag be flown? And we said, well, look, it doesn't represent the whole of Warwickshire. It represents a minority of people, but it doesn't represent the whole of Warwickshire. So we as a group come to an agreement that the Union flag St. George's and the Warwickshire flag should always be flown, with exceptions to the Armed Forces flag or Royal Standards.

27:42And we're putting a flag policy through in Cabinet on the 4th of September, which states that it's chairman's discretion. We're taking flags out the hands of politics, out the hands of non-elected bureaucrats, and into the hands of an elected but non-political chairman. and he will then decide which flag goes up when it does. OK, and then? Then the flag, the Progress Pride flag went up and instantly the old leader was like, no, no, no, this is wrong. We want those three flags, but we need to make sure that we listen to all communities, all that community cohesion.

28:30Camilla: Sorry, what's the difference between a progress Pride flag and a Pride flag? It's got the triangle on it. The triangle with the other genders and things. Yeah, and that's the point, is that that represents such a minority of people in Warwickshire that we don't have flags for other things, men's mental health, SEND needs, things that actually do need to be looked at differently. You don't have those flags and they won't be the first thing that they want to fly. I all know. It'll be progress pride flag. Why is the acceptance so clear, clear that that should be put up? That's the problem. And when I say, you know, those three flags that should be flown, that's because that represents everybody in Warwickshire, all those 600 ,000 people.

29:19No one is not represented by those three flags. So that's why they're so important. So reform said the flag must come down. Yeah, we said the flag must come down. Then it was, no, that's not your... Then I said, I become leader, interim leader. Then I said, the flag needs to come down. Oh, no, that's not your power. I said, well, it is. It's an executive power. It needs to come down. Oh, no, not really. And then I asked if she had planning permission. Who is the she, sorry?

29:52Camilla: Miss Fogarty. The chief executive. I said, does the council have planning permission to fly the Progress Pride flag? Her answer was, we don't need it. The answer is, you don't have it. So it wasn't there legally, which is a different matter completely. But when I asked for it to be taken down, it wasn't at my instruction, which is the biggest frustration that we had. But then it later did come down because of the end of Pride. But the point still states that it's not about flags. It's about the non-elected bureaucrat. that is telling an elected leader what to do and what not to do regarding an executive power.

30:32That's the point. That's the key point. The way we handled that and tackled it here will help us when we get into Whitehall to be able to go through that mess in Whitehall, which is going to be painful. Well, it will, but it shows you also how much of an uphill struggle that will be. If you can't get a flag taken down, how do you reform immigration, the NHS and education? Well, the point is that... And you didn't get it taken down. It came down because pride ended. Yes, but what we can now do is see that point that we made and go, we did it in local government. We know the sticking points to look out for.

31:09The thorns, the things that will pop up out the bushes when we get there later down the line. When we get into Whitehall, we'll see the problems that are emerging before they hit us. Then we're sitting pretty then because we'll be seeing things that will be inevitable.

31:24Camilla: There is an irony, isn't there? I mean, there's a kind of similarity here with the council taking on the Home Office over the Epping Migrant Hotel, and that's back in court this week. This idea that you're able to say to councils, do you have planning permission for this in order to get the results that you need? Because there is a perception that where reform councillors have gone into councils, that you have found a huge amount of opposition from non-elected representatives against the elected representatives. What other examples do you have of pushback from the unelected? Yeah, so what we said from day one is that councils should be run by members, elected members, not officers.

32:04And we saw flags from one. We're now, you know, as we speak, things that are now getting over the line. But that took weeks and weeks to get sorted, looking into scrapping union reps, looking in to either scrap or reduce to bare bones, net zero or EDI, those things, they've been since we got in and we haven't yet been able to put that over the line. Do you think that's reasonable bureaucracy or is there obstructions? And they're the questions that we'll be asking and they're the questions that we can actually go, when we're in Whitehall, we can see how to solve these things on a national scale.

32:44You said you want to strip out diversity, equality and inclusion. I have got that right, haven't I? Yes.

32:51Camilla: I mean, you could say EDI, as George did earlier, but if any order were... It's all the same. You want to strip it out. How much money does that sort of thing save? So we did a Freedom of Information request during the election regarding incentives, jobs, training so on for EDI and it was in the region of nearly 400 ,000 pounds a year so if you put then take that out of the MTFS for our next five years you're looking at what nearly two mil something like that so and what is what current deficit so actually Warwickshire isn't in debt We do have a statutory override, which is in a different part.

33:40It's bad economics, but all councils do it. It's not Warwickshire. It doesn't show that we're bad at economics. It's just that the actual national government allowed us to do this, and they allowed all councils to do. And Warwickshire was one of the last councils to go into their statutory override. So it does show how economically healthy we are. So our statutory override for SEND provision is 87 million. but in our budget we have the money to pay that off. So where economics works, we have no debt. Right, but you do have a deficit. We do have a deficit. What is the current deficit? £87 million.

34:14Because£400 ,000 a year out of£87 million is not a lot. No, but that's just one little element. But we've got the money, we've got already the money in the pot to pay that£87 million off. Right. So next year we won't because the deficit will increase. But that will be out of our control. Next year it's predicted to go up to 147 million. And we're retrospectively on Semper Vision, not one of the bigger ones, bigger councils. But that will be way out of our control that I predict in two to three years councils will be banging at the door saying, we're going to go bankrupt. If national government do not pull their weight.

34:55And this is what this education and SEM reform bill in September will be hoping to do. so we can maybe find a solution to not getting into a 147 deficit.

35:06Camilla: Why is it send provision particularly that you think is going to be what breaks the bank rather than adult social care? Well, we see that in the Neaton and Bedworth borough area, we spend our children's social care and adult social care are both equal in the amounts that we have, 20 % each. for Neaton Bedworth, 20 % of our budget of adult social care goes into Neaton Bedworth, same with children and families. So Neaton Bedworth is one of the most deprived areas we've got in Warwickshire and uses a big chunk of our adult social care and children and families bill for those issues. It's both. Send provision, homeschool transport,£48 million a year.

35:47That needs reforming.

35:48Camilla: This must be quite tricky for you to navigate because as you revealed earlier, your sister has got special educational needs. And you obviously, you know, we're speaking to you on a day that Jeremy Hunt has come out with a policy exchange report talking about the over-diagnosis of SEN in children. And is there this phenomenon now where county councils are having to pick up the bill for anxious parents getting children diagnosed with conditions that could just be explained with words like teenage angst, for instance? So this is tricky, isn't it? Because you've seen this up close. You've seen the need for SEND children to have help.

36:24Yeah. The issue I've got with the word overdiagnosis is that it implies that you are, one, faking it, or you're trying to squeeze the money out of the pot to make sure you can buy all these lovely things. In reality, it's not. It's not how it works. I've seen they bang on about disability vehicles. I'll be honest with you, those disability vehicles, there may be some that mess the system about and get it, but the majority of them actually do depend on these vehicles or the support they get. It's a very small amount of disabled people or parents that do that. I'll look at it on a case-by-case basis, but I'm not an expert, a medical expert, and I would never say I am and delve into case-by-case things.

37:14but when it comes to things like that if you speak to the people of Bedworth and you say should they get a car go probably not but when you've got a kid that is in a wheelchair there you go so and this is the point is you have to be very very uh delicate with the way you do talk about this issue you can't just start a sledgehammer with a walnut approach and that's the thing I had a phone call a concerned mother yesterday about homeschool transport reforms and she had a son that was heavily disabled. He was 12, but had the mental capacity of a four-year-old. And she was like, would those homeschool transport reforms mean my son has to get a bus?

37:59I went, absolutely not. I went, why would why do something like that? No. But maybe... You wouldn't, but the government might. Then I'll call them out every step of the way. Right. But that's not me. Yeah. And I will do so, like I've done with the HMOs and asylum seekers being housed in hotels. I don't have any power or autonomy over planning laws because that is the borough councils. We're not unitary yet. But I sent letters to all the leaders of district and borough councils in Warwickshire and asked them to listen to my advice of enacting Article 4 for planning permission on HMOs because in Eastern Bedworth, you don't need to get planning permission and change of use until there's six people living in the HMO.

38:45Camilla: Let's just clarify that HMO means a house of multiple occupancy. And as well as migrant hotels, these are council-run facilities to house asylum seekers. Yeah, borough or district councils or unitaries. County council is not a planning authority. So we have no say. We only provide care to an accompanied asylum children and things like that. We don't, there's very little actually as a county we do. And it's a shame. There have been protests in Nuneaton. Two men are currently in court. So we've got to be careful what we say, George. But they're in court charged with the alleged kidnap, strangulation and rape of a 12-year-old girl from Nuneaton.

39:31Camilla: we had protests outside the migrant hotel you then made a quest for the police to release the ethnicity and background of the suspects because you claimed that there were asylum seekers from Afghanistan there was a attempt to sort of cover that up and actually in the end the police relented on that and said yes in future cases we will release where suspects come from in order I guess and we saw this in the aftermath of Rudicabana and the Southport killings, misinformation spreading online as to the... Just talk to us about that. That's exactly the point. I was told that the alleged perpetrators had raped a 12-year-old girl in the Neaton and that they were asylum seekers.

40:18And I was told not to say anything and just, you know, there's no need for this information to go out. I phoned the chief constable and was like, nah. And then this is when there was one at the time, one perpetrator that was put through the systems. And they said to me, oh, no, no, no, it's fine. Community cohesion, fine, no. I was like, no, no, this doesn't sit right. We have three things in Warwickshire reform, honesty, integrity and transparency. That breaks all of those three for me straight off. Then when the second one come in, I went, nah, that's it, no. I can't stand for this any longer.

40:55So I phoned the people that I needed to phone and said, I completely now disagree with the way you've done this. I've had enough. So I then sent a letter to the chief constable, the Home Office, and I copied in the CEO of Orange County Council, telling them that this is bang out of order. You have to release it. Because I had fears of what happened in Epping. And up in Southport with the misinformation, as you said, And later, the Mail on Sunday released the information. They released the fact that the two perpetrators were, in fact, asylum seekers. And then 12 to 14 hours later, the whole news going bang on this.

41:43I wanted to clear the air because I was afraid of what could happen in places like Epping with riots and across the country we saw last year. we have to be transparent and they went oh no because people will start going crazy I went they won't if you be honest with them and actually it proved it I was right because you saw in Anita 1 ,500 people turned out peaceful

42:12Camilla: if they hadn't have been asylum seekers would you also have put your hand up and said these are white blokes from it would have been released and the problem is And then Warwickshire Police then put out a statement saying, I released it, which is factually incorrect. The Mail on Sunday did. And then I refused that. No, no, no, that's completely incorrect. But I now see why they've done that. Because Keir Starmer then went out the same day as me and Nigel did our press conference. And he pulled the rug underneath Warwickshire Police and went, no, no, we think that it is best if there's more transparency.

42:48then the council of police constables then come out a few weeks later and says no we will be releasing this from now on it proved the point that transparency is the key to this being honest and having integrity-based decisions that is the way to go and you feel confidence then and one one comment it really did hit me when all this was going on you had the communities back so we have yours. That's what it's about, being on the ground with the people. That's the point about being a local representative of your area. There's no point in being a dictator. It won't work. That's why Labour's being kicked out.

43:28I think you're touched by brilliance. I know politicians who have been at it for 20 years and are not this competent in their presentation or this on top of detail who could just speak as you have done without pause or hesitation and so convincingly. I mean, you might be talking nonsense. I don't know. I'm not from Warwickshire. But I mean, your presentation, your style, your self-confidence is absolutely extraordinary. Were you trained to do this? No, no. Simple. I represent the people. I represent what they've told me to be here to do. And I've done it. They've asked me, they've told me enough is enough.

44:11That's why they replicate that on the council. I've had enough of this. And this is where it then becomes a bit of an emotive topic, is that how can we sit here now in this day and age, 2025, how can we, people say, oh, do you support Palestine, Ukraine, whatever, how can we on the world stage go out and tell other countries what to do when we don't even know what a man and a woman is? That's the problem. How can we be the Britain that we want to be? have Keir Starmer go in the rooms with Putin and Zelensky and try and broker a deal. Well, he hasn't even got a clue what a man and a woman is. That's where Britain is on the world stage.

44:50We're at the bottom. We're a joke. And Nigel is the only person that can restore that confidence on a world stage and a national stage. It's the last chance, and I said this to my councillors when we went through to full council. We are the last line of defence against this wave of wokeism If we do not succeed, we're stuffed. And that's what I'm most fearful about. They're the kids that are going to grow up not knowing who they are, what to think, and they're not going to know anything. And when they get into the real world, they are stuffed. I really don't, I would, in fact, leave if we don't do it.

45:30I could not stay in this country. Where will you go? Somewhere that's sane.

45:37Camilla: Well, we're sane in the world, George Finch. Not this country. But this is my point. This is the point Nigel's making. Successful people, young people that want to do well, they can't stay here. We don't even know what's a man and a woman or we don't know who we should be paying what to. Well, we do know what a man and a woman is because it's been decreed now by the Supreme Court. Oh, what? We need a judge to tell us that. Well, Scottish women brought that case in order to define legally after a period of absolutely ridiculous confusion over basic biological fact to stipulate it. So we do have those stipulations.

46:15Camilla: Do you not think the tide's turning somewhat on woke? But who's forced that? Who's been the main guy that's been, he's the guy that wants that? Well, to be fair, the people who forced that vote have been lesbians who might want to be represented by your pride flag here. Well, they might want to represent reform if they're trying to take down this woke ideology. and this thing, reform is a party for common sense and this is why when people join us maybe from other political parties they join us because they, like I have like the people of Bedford have had enough of the same old, same old yes they may have been a part of the government 14 years but it may have took them 14 years to realise what have I been a complicit in and it took that point for them to snap and go oh god, I have to change this now we've gone on a path and I was a part of it.

47:03Imagine that. The guilt you'd have. So that's why they made defect. I don't know why people would... I think that may be a reason why they want to defect. I have to fix my problem. The old MPs go, I can't sit in Swellabraverman. Imagine if she joined.

47:18Camilla: Well, do you want her to join? I think she'd be a great advocate for reform. It's a shame she's tied to a toxic party. It's like the Titanic, really, isn't it? It's like the net zero agenda. You see, you alluded to councils being a laboratory for what reform will do in government. And reform has lent heavily onto the idea of doge and of saving money. But here you now find yourself responsible for the services of very vulnerable people. At a time in which we're running out of money and really difficult choices have to be made, is reform going to spend more, spend less? How will it cover that deficit?

48:00Because, I mean, get rid of the DEI stuff, fine. That's 400 ,000 out of a multi-million pound. I know it's just one, but DEI and flags, it's not really what local government's actually about. Local government's actually about getting those kids to schools, and that costs money. And as you yourself have demonstrated, it's not true that most of these kids are faking it or sponging off the state. They need those services, and we have to find the money for them. Well, Tim, we've put in our spending review that we are looking this year to save around 20 to 30 million pounds and the next year, 30 to 40.

48:36So we're looking at spending this and this is through reviews of assets, properties, reusing things. I want to look at possible options of working with private sector investment to create money for us as accounts or business ventures. because they do work. You just have to obviously make sure you're looking at it all the time because it could just blow up instantly like we've seen in other councils. But we have to do innovative things, fresh, innovative change, and that's what you get with a young leader. That's what you get with reform, and that is what we're looking at to make sure it's not business as usual because that's what's failed them for so long.

49:14So it's not just about flags or DEI or net zero. There's bigger changes that have to happen.

49:21Camilla: Do you want to be an MP one day? I've been asked this many times recently, do you want to be an MP? And so on. But like I say, I have to make sure Warwickshire gets a better deal. And that's why I'm here as leader. I know, but one day. I mean, you're only 19. You've got a whole political career ahead of you. I might want to be. Surely you want to stand in 20, 28, 29. I might want to be councillor. I don't know. We'll have to wait and see. I need to make sure that Warwickshire gets a better deal first. Have you had any conversations with Farage about it? No. I'm a council leader. How often do you speak to him?

49:58I don't need to phone him up every day. No. Can we say this? I'm a council leader. I'm in charge of Warwickshire.

50:05Camilla: I just wondered if he had a mentoring role or anything like that to you. I spoke to him about certain things and press conferences and stuff, but I don't need to hold his hand. I thought he might be holding your hand a bit. But is the central party in direct communication with you? Is there anyone helicopter parenting you from reform? I mean, is Zia on the phone every few minutes? No, no, no, no, no. Not at all, no, no. I don't, and this is the thing, we're running Warwickshire. I don't need to be being ran from Westminster. It's not how it works. Why would I be sat here, but actually the strings are being pulled from Westminster?

50:45That defeats the whole point of democracy, the whole point of us running Warwickshire. We might as well just pack up shop and let Keir Starmer run the place. You don't get MPs pulling strings. I can phone them up for advice, like any council leader can, but that's life.

51:00Camilla: Final question then. What is your prediction for the next general election and how well reform might do? Well, just based off predictions we've had for the next year, Borough Council elections and the commentary elections, we could see a complete just wipe out. I spoke to a Conservative councillor, a few weeks back, quite, you phoned me up, quite worried. And it's kind of like, whoa, what's the matter? It's finished. It's done. It doesn't matter what Labour says, Conservatives. It doesn't matter what Council Tax says, what political assistance. It doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Because when you knock on the door, what's the main thing they talk about?

51:45Reform and how we're going to tackle immigration. because that is the only thing that's stopping people from getting doctor's appointments, from getting the key services that we need because we're paying for people that shouldn't necessarily be here. And the way you put it, you say, it doesn't matter. It's done.

52:04Camilla: Is that a Midlands thing, a Red Wall thing? Can you break through the Blue Wall? I think the general election in Warwickshire, I think we'll win North Warwickshire in Bedford's constituency, bye-bye Labour MP. Nuneaton, bye-bye Labour MP. Rugby, Labour MP gone, that's three. Kenneworth and Southam, Jeremy Wright. I don't know how he holds on to that, to be honest with you, but we could get that one. Tory, just to point out. Yeah, Tory, yeah. Stratford, Lib Dem, Eifert. Look, we try everywhere, and Warwick and Leamington, bless them, they've got this, the district council's got some weird Labour green cabal, which actually just blew up recently.

52:44Camilla: Yeah. But are you predicting that the map goes turquoise come 28, 29? Yeah, 100%. What I see is a huge wipeout. Tories are finished. The Conservatives are toast. The Lib Dems can only make... In Warwickshire, there's no room to expand. This is the point. Lib Dems are all in the South. They will never get a seat in the need to North Warwickshire and Bedford. Never. They have no room to expand for seats. Reform does. Lib Dems are only in the country, they're a bit scattered, but the main part are in the south east. Yeah, yeah, no, southwest, sorry. They're in that patch, and they haven't got much room to expand.

53:34The forum does. We can win in Cornwall, so we might be able to win general election seats. This is my point. We have got all the momentum in British politics. Like Zia says, we do, it's true. we can win in every seat possible it's just about making sure the manpower's there the money there's for the donations of the people, actually getting out speaking to residents, that's the best way to do it, and Labour and the Tories have just failed at that George Finch, thank you very much thank you, thank you

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