‘Grifters’: Harry and Meghan court controversy on ‘royal tour’ Down Under

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30Ragbook is going to get you that promotion. And the AI drama that made Reddit our stock pick of the year. Jack and I worked on Wall Street, got MBAs, sold our last company to Robinhood. Plus, we were freshman year roommates. So I can tell you why Jack's a briefs guy, not a boxers guy. So listen to T-Board, the best one yet. It'll be the brightest part of your day. And if this podcast lasts longer than 20 minutes, call your doctor. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcast everywhere. Acast.com. Ahead of May's critical local elections, we're taking the daily tea on the road, visiting key battlegrounds across Britain and answering your questions with four special live events.

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1:33Camilla: We're being robbed blind at the petrol pumps by Rachel Reeves. With prices soaring, the Chancellor is steadfastly refusing to cut fuel duty. Robert Jenrick joins us and says the government should halve VAT for the next three months. But do the sums actually add up? He also says Axel Rudicabana's parents should be deported. And as Harry and Meghan rake it in with personal appearances in Australia, just what are they playing at and are they right to commercialise their royal role? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomeny. And me, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

2:18Camilla: Jacob Rees-Mogg, welcome back to The Daily Tea covering for Tim as he goes on his holly bobs Well, thank you for having me, it's always a pleasure to be here Lovely to see you What car are you driving these days? You used to campaign in a classic car Well, I have got a 1936 Bentley which I took out at the weekend and you really notice how dreadful the roads are in an old car and it was terrible and this was driving Bath, North East Somerset, Somerset County Council. The roads were awful. It was bump, bump, bump and I think people are going to find it really difficult to take classic cars out because they don't have the quality of suspension and tyres that modern cars have.

2:53Day to day I drive a Jaguar but I have a problem with that because Jaguar supply systems have not improved since they had that hack and I have a crack in my windscreen and there's no sign of getting a new windscreen from Jaguar because they can't supply one. Jaguar Land Rover is in a real muddle. Can I say three words to you?

3:16Camilla: No, four words. Auto glass repair, auto glass replace. But they don't because they get it from Jaguar and I'm on a queue. You're on a list. And I tried going to other people and they said, no, no, we can see you in the queue. Okay. A Bentley and a Jaguar don't sound as if they do many miles to the gallon. What does it cost to fill up the Bentley? OK, the Jaguar does about 30 miles to the gallon. OK. And the Bentley probably does 12 and a half. 12 and a half? Well, it's a 1936 car. It's 90 years old, the poor old dear. So you have been hammered by increased fuel prices. It is a noticeable increase in cost, yes.

3:48Camilla: Although I'm playing the world's tiniest violin for you because you're not short of a few bob. But can I make an observation? Because I've been travelling around using the fuel checker thing to try and get fuel. This is the trouble with having children that then learn to drive. I thought, I'm filling up my car. I've got a Mini Cooper. Then I'm filling up the family car, which is like this Land Rover Discovery that we take out on the weekends because I've got three kids and I can't get them all in the Mini easily with my husband. Now I'm filling up my daughter's car, which seems unfair, doesn't it, as she learns to drive.

4:19Camilla: So I've been going from forecourt to forecourt. I managed to get 148.5 unleaded last week and diesel at 180. Somebody wrote in to say the highest diesel price he's seen is at the Rotherham services on the M1. It's broken the two pound barrier. 203.9 pence for a litre of diesel. And let's put this into proper units because two pounds a litre is nine pounds a gallon. and most people know what they do in miles per gallon. It's one of the great fiddles of the metric system. Yes, that's true. Because Rachel Reeves has this 5p increase. It's not 5p, it's 22.5p when you put it into gallons. In gallons.

5:03So we're absolutely swindled by the government, and this goes back as well to the European Union, putting it into metric measures to try and hide the real cost. Nine pounds a gallon is an extraordinary amount of money, of which over half is going in tax.

5:19Camilla: Also, when you compare that to what the Americans are paying per gallon, Tim got in a bit of trouble about this because of his mathematics. But it's a slightly smaller gallon in America. It's a smaller gallon, but it still would work out. We would still be envious of fuel prices in the US, even though they've gone up extraordinarily. They're paying whatever it is,$3.50 a gallon. It's about a third of the price for a slightly smaller gallon, so you have to adjust for that. Shall we probe the political sense or lack thereof of the Chancellor Rachel Reeves currently in Washington at an IMF meeting?

5:56Camilla: And by the way, your favourite organisation, the IMF, Jacob, has downgraded the UK's growth forecast. So they had predicted that we'd grow by 1.3 % in 2026 and 1.5 in 2027. That's now become 0.8 % this year and 1.3 % next year. But we don't believe a word they say, do we? No, we don't. Also, the IMF misses the point that what this country needs is not IMF forecasts. It needs fundamental economic reform. It needs supply side reform. It needs to get a sensible energy policy to scrap all net zero stuff. It needs to cut expenditure on welfare and rein it in on the health service and cut taxes. And we need to do all of that if we're going to have proper long term growth.

6:37Camilla: Why is Rachel Reeves resisting this call to cut fuel duty? So I get the argument politically that you can actually quite cogently make to say, well, fuel duty is frozen. This is all about what happens to it in September when it's due to be unfrozen. Why wouldn't you now be saying if you really do understand the cost of living crisis and indeed the energy crisis caused by the war in Iran and you've been critical of Trump and you're justifying not having joined the US president full throatedly in his military action. Surely you would then turn around to the British public, not least because there's a local election looming, and say, all right, we're going to ease fuel duty even further because actually we're making a huge amount of money from this.

7:21Camilla: Somebody calculated the government's making 20 million quid a day from this increase. Yes. I mean, the thing people need to remember is that VAT is charged on the cost of the fuel and on the duty. So when the cost of fuel goes up, they make extra money on the VAT on the cost of the fuel, with the duty then on top of that with VAT added. So yes, the underlying price of fuel has gone up. Therefore, the VAT goes up. Now, businesses reclaim the VAT, but individuals don't. They have to pay it. So that is a boon for the government. And it would be perfectly reasonable for the government to say, whilst we've got elevated prices with no net cost to the exchequer, we are reducing duty to account for the extra VAT income.

8:07And I think that would be a prudent thing to do and it would be marginally helpful to people in the cost of living crisis. Yes. It gets more difficult to say we should just cut the duty because much though I dislike it and much though I think the government's spending too much money and much though I think it spends it badly, the government can't just give up sources of tax revenue. It needs to get somewhere close to balancing the books. Yes. And so we all want taxes to go down, but where's the money coming from to pay for it? What cut are you identifying to pay for it? So if you start saying cut fuel duty, okay, what are you increasing?

8:43Are you going to increase VAT? Are you going to increase stamp duty? Are you going to increase income tax? Or what are you going to cut? Perhaps you're going to cut defence a bit more. Yes. And so you can't just say, which I'm afraid some politicians are, cut the duty. You need to give the quid pro quo.

8:59Camilla: Also, say, for instance, if they did cut the duty and Rotherham's services at the M1, the price of diesel there went from 203.9p to 195.9, then people are still going to think they're being ripped off and therefore would they give the government the benefit of the doubt on it? Possibly not. Well, no-one in their right mind should ever fill up at a motorway service station. Why do they get away with charging so much more, not just for petrol, by the way, but if you go to a little waitrose or M &S Food, everything's more expensive because you're on a motorway. What's that all about? Well, they get charged, I think, quite high rents to be there.

9:39But I think the reason is because the only purpose for going to one of those stations is because you're absolutely desperate. You're absolutely desperate for petrol. You're about to run out. You're running on fumes and you put in a couple of gallons to keep you going until you can pull off the motorway.

9:52Camilla: Yes, indeed. I still don't understand the higher price of sandwiches. I mean, honestly, it's because you're a captive audience. You're a captive audience. Just getting ripped off. Yes. OK, so what do we think about fuel protests and whether they would be effective? It's really interesting to see what's been going on in Ireland. So the Irish did take to their forecourts in protest at prices. And lo and behold, people power, Jacob. The government in Ireland has responded with a£440 million support package, including a 10 cent reduction per litre. Don't forget, of course, they have the euro. So that's very good.

10:27Camilla: That's on both petrol and diesel. I know you're not a socialist, but this is when collective action does come into its own. Prices have come down across the Irish Sea. Well, I think we have the risk of protests in relation to motoring because the motorist is being taken for a fool, not just in terms of fuel prices, but in terms of potholes, in terms of 20 mile hour speed limits. There is such a war on the motorist that I think motorists are constantly on the cusp of rising up against this. They have had enough. Yes. I don't think it's just fuel prices in isolation, but you're paying a lot of tax and the roads you drive on are rubbish.

11:04There are big potholes in A roads, not just in the B roads and the unlisted roads.

11:11Camilla: I agree with you. It's like the driver is almost quadruply taxed or more because you're paying to tax your car generally. Then you're paying the fuel duty and the tax on the fuel that you put in. Then invariably you're paying perhaps for some kind of parking permit. Then you're going into a town and paying extra parking on top for that. So at every turn, drivers are clobbered. insurance costs? Insurance is compulsory and then the government taxes you on compulsory insurance. So you're hit twice. Again, constantly the government is raking in money from the motorists and providing a rotten service in return.

11:48Our roads are jam-packed, they are badly constructed and in some cases with the smart motorways they're not even safe. Of course the motorists are fed. I mean then you've got these dreadful no-traffic neighbourhoods that should all be

11:59Camilla: Right, well, let's now speak to somebody who, this is appropriate, because he's been on a journey, Jacob. He's been on a political journey, veering between Remain and Brexit, the Conservatives of reform. And he spent most of the morning on a petrol forecourt in Nottingham. Robert Jenrick, your old Conservative mucker, joins us now. Robert, it's very nice to see you virtually and get a view of your splendid kitchen. You've been spending all morning moonlighting as a service station attendant. Has that been fun and rewarding? It's been a lot of fun. So Lee Anderson and I took over a petrol station on the outskirts of Nottingham, and we reduced the price of petrol and diesel to show what should happen if Rachel Reeves took action.

12:44And we're calling on the Chancellor to do an emergency cut in VAT, half it in fact, so that you'd save 13p a litre on your unleaded and 16p a litre on diesel. and just lighten the load a little bit because we met so many people this morning who are finding life very hard we had mums and dads who were doing the school run longer distances in rural areas we had tradesmen carers who were going from house to house over a long day you know racking up the miles farmers with tractors an hgv driver you name it everyone is finding life tough at the moment And it feels to me as if the chancellor is acting like a bystander rather than actually doing something to help people.

13:28But if you're halving VAT, the farmers and the HGV licensed drivers won't be affected because they reclaim their VAT anyway. That will only help the private motorist. And then there's the question of how you pay for it. Where does the money come from? Because the government's already borrowing far too much. our cost of debt is going up, the interest payments therefore going up. Where does this money come from? Where are you going to save cash? Well, Jacob, you're absolutely right about the VAT. But that's one of the reasons why we said that a reform government would cancel the increase in fuel duty that is coming down the line in September if Rachel Reeves doesn't U-turn before then.

14:09But you're right that things like this have to be paid for. And we have already set out some big savings. We said that we're going to get rid of billions of pounds of the waste that you're currently seeing in Ed Miliband's Net Zero department. In particular, we're not going to offer subsidies for heat pumps and for electric vehicles and for some of this technology that's completely untested, like carbon capture and storage, and which won't be necessary under a reformed government because we're not going to blindly follow the Committee on Climate Change and the unrealistic targets that are set out in the Climate Change Act.

14:48If we can save billions of pounds there, then we can use some of that money to lighten the load. It's also fair to say that Rachel Reeves is getting a lot of money in at the moment. You know, although the public finances are under massive pressure, as you rightly say, she's coining it in at the moment with the extra revenues from VAT on domestic energy bills, VAT and fuel duty at the forecourts. And we're simply asking her to use some of that money for some help here in the now. And that's what other governments are doing around the world, from Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Australia, to help people out when they're finding life very tough at this moment.

15:25All right, but you're clearly not helping everybody because it wouldn't make any difference cutting VAT to business. And who knows what the oil price will be in September when the 5P comes on, supposedly, though I very much doubt it will. In terms of red diesel, you wouldn't be affecting that at all because the farmers reclaim the VAT and it doesn't have duty on it and farmers are being hit. So I don't quite see who you're helping with this cut in terms of the British economy. Well, we're certainly helping millions of motorists who have to drive to work. And you know that, Jacob, because you're a country man at heart.

16:04You represented a constituency where people will be driving into towns and to cities like Bath and Bristol to get to work. Mums and dads having to take their kids to college and to school, long distances. And there is a mindset amongst some. But why don't you cut the duty? There is a mindset amongst some politicians on the left that, you know, this is easy, that you don't have to drive. Well, you do. Many, many people, most of my constituents have to rely on a car or a car share. And if we can cut the cost of driving just a little bit, it will lighten the load at this difficult time. But why not cut the duty rather than the VAT rate?

16:43Well, we're essentially proposing to do both. We're saying that she shouldn't go ahead with the fuel duty increase that's coming down the line in September. But a way of making a more substantial difference now would be to do an emergency cut in VAT as well, just for three months. That's all we're proposing. Because you're right to say, we don't know exactly what's going to happen with the course of the war. But let's do it for three months. That makes a material difference. And then let's take stock later in the summer. But it's something that's affordable and practical that could be done now.

17:15I mean, the thing that worries me is that when we're in opposition, this applies to both of us, that it's very easy to talk about taxes that we would like to cut. But the reality of government, which you and I both saw, is that you've got to pay for it, and that the savings are very often tomorrow and the expenditure is very often today. And I just wonder whether you're falling into that trap. And that creates an unreal set of expectations should you get into government, that it makes it all sound easy. Whereas if it were easy, even Rachel Reeves, unsatisfactory as chancellor as she is, would be doing some of this.

17:51I think that's a fair point, Jacob, and it's something that I've taken to heart since taking on this job as shadow chancellor. You know, Nigel did a speech in the city in November, which he was very clear that some of the tax pledges that have been made in the past by reform are very challenging to deliver because the public finances are now in such a poor state. And that's a point that I reiterated in my first speech when I said that we would only be making tax and spend commitments when it's very clear how we would pay for them. Of course, we do see the dynamic effect of tax cuts in some instances.

18:28But if we want the public finances to be sustainable, then we're going to have to demonstrate to the public how we would finance things before we start offering them. And so the changes that I've certainly set out in the short period that I've been reformed's economic spokesperson have been always fully funded. And that's what you can expect from a reformed opposition and a reformed government. So we don't make the mistakes that Rachel Reeves did in opposition, where she promised that she would only increase taxes relatively modestly, six or eight billion pounds. And in fact, they've risen by£68 billion and counting.

19:05And that's destroyed her credibility as Chancellor and done a lot of harm to politics as well, where people have even less trust in the political process.

19:14Camilla: Can I just say how much I've been enjoying this blue, on slightly lighter blue, that's been going on here. It's giving me hope as a righty that at some point, if reform doesn't get that magical 326 seats, that we can have some kind of convivial, conservative mash-up, small c. This is giving me hope, chaps. Well, I hope so. I backed Robert for leadership of the Tory party. Yeah, how did that turn out for you, Jacob? I think he's a proper Tory. But then I think a lot of members of reform are what I would call proper Tories. Look, we could have a whole other podcast on proper Toryism stroke reformism stroke coalitions to see off some kind of horror show involving Labour, the Libs and the Greens.

19:54Camilla: But let's put that to one side. So you're at this petrol forecourt this morning, Robert, and you're giving away free petrol in a way, aren't you? You're subsidising petrol. This comes after you are giving away the cost of people's energy bills. I must ask you about this because the recipients of the great reform energy giveaway, Raymond and June Dibble. Now, you knocked on their door in Wigan and you and Nigel Farage looked hugely surprised to be seeing these people who, Nigel Farage had already met. He was photographed with them in 2019. These two nominated a Wigan branch chair fairly recently.

20:34Camilla: So you've given away energy to great big reform members and friends. Well, it was a completely random draw. What? Was it? Almost 100 ,000 people, Camilla, entered it. I don't know if you did. I encourage you to do so on the day. Do you know what? I didn't have time as I was too busy barracking you and your colleagues. You probably were, yes. But we've got almost 300 ,000 members in reform. So it's not entirely surprising that a reform supporter would choose to enter a draw that's organised by reform. But it was a completely random thing. And the point was, we were trying to draw attention to a very serious issue that people are really suffering at the moment.

21:18And, you know, we have to bring down people's energy bills. And you do that in part by lightening the load on tax if you can. But you also do it by giving ourselves more energy security, by drilling for every drop of North Sea oil and gas and domestically, as Jacob was a great advocate of in government. These are the ways in which we actually get our own domestic energy going again, and we can start to lighten the load on a more sustainable basis for people like the families we met in Wigan.

21:50Camilla: The other thing I noticed about the Dibbles house is how lovely it was. It was quite a large house with wonderful Victorian tiles on the outside floor. And I wondered whether it might have been better to have given it to somebody perhaps really struggling on a council estate. Well, we could have rigged it if that's what you're suggesting. Well, people are suggesting you have rigged it because you've given it to two people that have been photographed with Nigel Farage in 2019. Well, it was random, Camilla. So I'm struggling to understand your argument. Yeah, if we had rigged it, we could have found the perfect recipient.

22:25But in fact, we gave it to a very nice couple in Wigan and everyone on their street. All right. Good luck to the dibbles. It was a complete mix of people we met on the street, single mom, tradesmen, retired couples. You know, it was a cross-section of people across England. And, you know, Wigan is exactly the kind of place that I want reform to have a strong showing at in May. We hope to take control of the council, in fact, there. Fair enough. And that's a place where voted Labour, I think, in every election in its modern history. It's got Lisa Nandy as the Member of Parliament. The conversations I had on the doorstep, that will not be happening for much longer.

23:03Camilla: All right. Well, I'm going to ask you one more question about something else that people are suggesting is fishy, and that is Richard Tice's tax affairs. He says there's no story here. Gabriel Pogrand of the Sunday Times seems to be suggesting otherwise. Well, everyone obviously should pay their taxes. And from what I can see, Richard Tice has done just that. In fact, he may well have paid more tax than he needed to. So it does, in honesty, feel like a bit of a non-story to me. I understand there are local elections coming up in a few weeks' time and newspapers perfectly reasonably want to dig into the leading people in reform.

23:42But there's no story here as far as I can see.

23:44Camilla: All right. Finally, you were very kind enough to message me. We do have the odd message between each other, don't we, Robert Jenrick, which once became... Well, sometimes you publish them, Camilla, but that's all right. No, I didn't publish them. To be fair, let's just clear this up, because you published messages between you and Rebecca Harris. I actually didn't name you as the source of the person who said that Robert Jenrick would never, ever defect from the Conservatives' reform. I just said sources close to you, and then you in a press conference admitted that you had said that to me, and then I took you to task on it.

24:15Camilla: But that is all water under the bridge, because you and I are friends now, in the same way that you and Jacob are still friends, despite the parting of the Conservatives' waves. They're not quite like Lisa Nandy, too, so I'm friends with all sorts of people in all sorts of parties. Me neither, me neither. But anyway, let's just talk about, you were very kind enough to say that you had read my piece this morning Jacob and I discussed it yesterday, the parental responsibility of Axel Ruder-Cabana's folks and the inquiry findings into the Southport killings, saying that he, Sir Adrian Fulford, the inquiry chair, found them culpable.

24:50Camilla: And you said that struck a chord with you and you wanted to say something in response to that. Yeah, I thought it was a very good piece by you, if I may say, Camilla, today. There's a very thorough report. It lays the blame really at the appalling failures of multiple agencies, the prevent programme that has lurched from one failure to another under both Labour and Conservative. But the family of Axel Rudikovana have behaved shamefully. And I know as a parent, it's very tough when you face these situations. Of course, we can all understand that and have a degree of empathy. But these parents knew that Axel Rudakabana was forming an arsenal of weapons.

25:32They were fearful for their own lives, and yet they didn't do anything about it. And that would have prevented these appalling attacks. So my view is that Merseyside police, as I understand that they are, need to look into this. You know, these individuals should look, you know, they should face criminal charges. I mean, they did look into the police, did look into the couple.

25:55Camilla: They did look into it. Oh, they should be deported. They came here, as I understand that, they came here for asylum. They enjoyed the hospitality, generosity of the UK. and they've abused that, let's be honest. They failed to stop one of the most heinous crimes in modern times. And, you know, I think they should now be asked to leave. They should be deported. Back to Rwanda. I mean, they came here escaping a genocide. Well, I don't think that matters. A perfectly safe country today. And if you behave in the way that they've done, then you've abused the generosity of the British people and you should be deported, yes.

26:38Camilla: OK. Robert Jenrick, as ever, great to speak to you. I look forward to you two, by the way, Jacob and Robert, disagreeing on very, very little in the future as we move forward in this brave new world of reform, the Conservatives, pretending they don't agree on almost everything. We already disagree on very little. That's been quite a theme for some time. Let's unite the right folks. Yeah, yeah. On that note, Robert Jenrick, we'll hopefully be seeing you very, very soon on Daily Tea. Really grateful for your time. Thank you. Thank you. Funnily enough, another country that's suffering from a dangerous shortage of fuel is Australia.

27:12Camilla: They've got another problem as well because Harry and Meghan are in town and some people don't like it. We'll be speaking to our Deputy Royal Editor, Vicky Ward, in Melbourne next.

27:37I used to think unpaid bills were just part of it.

27:40Camilla: Ugh. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply.

28:09Camilla: Well, throw another royal correspondent on the Barbie, Jacob, because Harry and Meghan are in Australia with our very own Telegraph royal reporter extraordinaire, Vicky Ward, who is following the Sussexes around. Vicky, you're in Melbourne. So are Harry and Meghan. Hello, I am. What's the scene like down under? Are they being warmly welcomed? Do you know what? It's really interesting, Camilla, because in the Australian press, much like in the UK, it's been, for the last few days, it's been really, really negative. Why are they coming? They're grifters. They're using the country as an ATM. They're just here to make money.

28:47Camilla: They just want to get what they can. They're just that, you know, it's just all about themselves. And the breakfast TV shows this morning were the same, asking whether people care about, why people care about them coming. What are they doing here? What's the point? But then on the ground, at all the engagements they've been to today, They've been really warmly welcomed, huge crowds, not a negative boo or negative comment in sight. And everyone just genuinely wants to get a glimpse of them and shake their hand. So there's an interesting juxtaposition, I think. It seems to me they've played a very good hand stunningly badly.

29:23That is to say they were both hugely popular. And then they up sticks, went away, gave dreadful interviews. But there's still an underlying affection for the Duke of Sussex, Prince Harry. and that this shows that he could win it back. If he came back to England, I think people would forgive him quite quickly.

29:40Camilla: I totally agree. There's clearly a deep affection for Prince Harry in particular, isn't there, in the UK? I think people feel let down by him and disappointed by his actions and angry about how he's behaved. But ultimately, I agree with you. I think probably the public would welcome him back if he ever wanted to come back. But I note that we're saying they would welcome him back, but perhaps not his wife. I mean, it's notable that when you wrote up their arrival in Melbourne, you said they came on business class on a commercial flight. OK, fair enough. So there aren't kind of private jets being chartered.

30:12Camilla: The couple have been criticised for that in the past because they're also self-styled eco warriors. And that seems rather contradictory. But then you say they go off in a car, not a motorcade. I'm just intrigued that Prince Harry is presumably perfectly comfortable with his security in Australia, even though he's made a massive fuss about losing his taxpayer-funded bodyguards in the UK. Yes, indeed. It's interesting, isn't it? And you've got to question whether it's a political issue that it's become for Harry in the UK because he just feels that the royal family is punishing him for stepping back from royal life by preventing him from having police protection.

30:49Camilla: And that's what he's really railing against, isn't it? Is this a non-royal royal tour? Jacob you're making the point that you think that actually the audience and the reception on the ground suggests that they may be welcome back it's not exactly the reaction from Telegraph readers can I just share a few comments which we asked our communities team has anyone got anything positive to say nobody really did we did manage to like find one message but let's just turn to some of the reaction here. P.A. Turner writes, this is a disgraceful pantomime put on for public consumption. The sick children, this is referring to a visit to a children's hospital the couple carried out, are being used as props in the Meghan show.

31:37Camilla: The hospital authorities should have known better than to take part in this. Mike Ward, I don't see how anyone apart from the grifters get anything out of this. It just undermines the real royal family. Assume that's the point. And so it goes on. So everyone's basically saying they're not buying this philanthropic act and they're grifters. It's interesting. I asked one of their aides at the hospital while we were waiting for them this morning, why they were coming to the hospital. What was the point of it? It didn't fit in with any of their charitable endeavours particularly. And why were they actually going and he said it was because it was a focus on young people the couple have got a particular interest in young people and mental health and that that was the kind of reason they gave but it yeah it it's a way off some of the work that they do do in america isn't it i mean i just think these comments rather mean-minded and i think the vast bulk of the british people don't spend a lot of time thinking about the duke and duchess of sussex but that when they do that That picture comes to mind of a very brave Prince Harry walking behind his mother's coffin and thinking, gosh, that was an amazing thing to have done.

32:52That showed royalty in its way. It's its best at the stiff upper lip, putting your duty to your country first. And if only he'd give up all these ridiculous lawsuits that don't do him any good and cost him a fortune. Did go to a few more hospitals. That's what royals do. They do hospitals.

33:09Camilla: Stoicism from him as a child and then he turns into what some people have described as the ginger whinger. He's going to Oprah, he's going on Netflix along with his wife, he's speaking in spare, where he's basically complaining about how hard his privileged life is. That's right, which is deeply unsympathetic and has alienated a lot of people, particularly telegraph readers. But he could put that behind him, I think, quite quickly. And you raised the question of I was saying the Duke of Sussex, not the Duchess. I think she was received with absolutely open arms when she first came here. It was extremely popular and was on the cusp of being a much-loved royal princess.

33:48That was thrown away very quickly. Could it be restored? Yes, I think it could, because I think there is this underlying sympathy for him.

33:56Camilla: But Vicky, the other kind of elephant in the room here is the financial imperative behind this tour. So just talk to us about that, because the phrase grifters, To be fair, it was used by somebody at Spotify, wasn't it, to describe the couple behind their backs. And it's kind of held because they don't have a formal role in public life anymore. And so to be fair to them, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, oh, this is all becoming mere frippery. You're making jam. You're trying to be the next Martha Stewart. What's the point of you? And then criticise them for doing something that appears to be charitably motivated.

34:33Camilla: OK, if they are philanthropic, then probably they should be given the benefit of the doubt. But it's these tickets to this weekend in Sydney. Just tell us about the commercials. Yes. So this is the big controversy with this trip, isn't it? Because it was very much originally arranged as a money making visit. It was initially just going to be a day or two. They were coming in. And Megan is going to address this Her Best Life Besties podcast, some weekend retreat for women this weekend in Sydney. She's going to appear at the Intercontinental on Coogee Beach on Friday afternoon and briefly address these women who have paid a ridiculous amount of money for their tickets.

35:16Camilla: And she's a big draw. She's a headliner. And she's being paid a lot of money to do that. And that's really the reason why they were coming in the first place. and similarly Harry is addressing a mental health leadership summit on Thursday in Melbourne so they were coming to do that and then I think what's happened is that very recently literally in the last month or so people started finding out about this that they were coming and offers started coming in and they decided at the last minute to turn it into something that it wasn't intended to be originally and tagged on a lot of charitable engagements which I assume they kind of think will help elevate their own philanthropic work and their brand in the US and the work that they do on a charitable level as well.

36:01Camilla: But Megan is trying to flog her jam in Australia. She's got a trademark in Australia for as ever. She wants to move into the Australian market and that is to make money. So it is, that's the problem they've got. They're trying to do both things and it's a tricky path to navigate. Jacob, let me just give you the prices of meeting Megan. So at the girls weekend retreat in Sydney. Tickets are costing from£1 ,400 to£1 ,670. That's pounds, not Australian dollars. For VIP access, that includes a group table photograph with the Duchess. And then as Vicky says there, Prince Harry's going to appear as a guest speaker at Melbourne's Inter-Edge Summit.

36:44Camilla: Delegate tickets are available for£525. Platinum tickets,£1 ,250. And a A virtual ticket offering on-demand access to Harry's speech costs£260. So just for the privilege of listening to him remotely,£260. At the end of the day, this is a commercial endeavour. You could forgive people for thinking they're tagging on children's hospitals to try and make it look as if it's more philanthropic than it is. Well, speaking as a politician, I notice politicians get hospitals from time to time to make themselves look cuddly and nice, whilst at the same time grubbing around for votes. That if you are a royal, you go to hospitals because it's part of the image you've got to build.

37:28But we only fund two members of the royal family properly. The Duchy of Lancaster and the Crown Estates fund the king and the Duchy of Cornwall funds the Prince of Wales. None of the rest of them have any money. And yet... Jacob, for goodness sake! Not in terms of what they're expected to do.

37:47Camilla: The civilist money, which is now called the Sovereign Grant, funds their official duties. It goes to the king. Yes, and then the king disseminates it. And the king may give some... The Edinburgh's and the others. But they don't have a lot of money. Oh, they live in great big mansions. I've been to Sophie and Edward's place, Bagshot Park. They might live in big places. It's got a rogerie. But they're not billionaires, and they are expected to have a certain style. We don't want the Duke of Edinburgh to turn up in the back of a Morris Minor to an official event. He's got to turn up in a Bentley.

38:16Does he? Having Bentleys are... Yes, of course, we want our royal family to be a proper royal family. We're not, thank heaven, Scandinavians. We don't have grubby cycling monarchies. We have a proper monarchy, a grand monarchy.

38:27Camilla: You just don't like the idea of cycling at all. No, I don't. I think it's a dreadful activity. Well, also because you ricked it on a bicycle. I'd look quite fine on a penny farthing. But other than that, so they've got to make money somehow. Speaking at a dinner and getting paid for it, dare I say I've done this on one or two occasions. I don't rake it in at that level, sadly. You're not cashing in on your royal status. The whole problem, Vicky, wasn't it, that when they sought, quotes, financial independence in America in early 2020, that was the line that was injected into the Megxit statement.

38:59Camilla: They wanted this half in, half out. And the late Queen and others said, no, I'm sorry, you're either in with the crown and therefore you can't commercialise or you go off and you commercialise. Off they go and commercialise and that's fine. but I think it's these muddied waters, like Fergie, for instance, always gets criticised for cashing in on her royal status. What's the difference with these two? Well, there's nothing the Duke of Sussex can do that he is royal, whether he likes it or not. He can't wake up in the morning and fire himself from being royal. Well, he could do. No, he can't. They could have relinquished their titles and lived a very quiet life in Montecito and then their private individual...

39:38And how they pay for that?

39:39Camilla: They still need to pay the bills, though, don't they? They have Netflix shows. They do podcasts. All of which is completely dependent on them being royal or his being royal. Vicky, what do you think? I agree with Jacob, actually. I think they're in a very tricky position where they've got to make money. They've got huge, they've got mortgage to pay. They've got these huge security bills. They've got this certain lifestyle to fund. And they've got no money coming in anymore from the king, so they've got to find it themselves. and they can't, they're in this odd situation where they can't just go and get a normal job.

40:12Camilla: All they've got, Prince Harry, is Prince Harry. He's going to, all he can do to make money is be Prince Harry. He can't go and get a job at an art gallery or, you know, whatever. He could have probably got a job in the British military or in any military, actually, because he did all of his training in America when he became a so-called Top Gun. And equally, Meghan, I mean, she could be a motivational speaker and life coach. Or anything like that would depend upon her being royal. She could have carried on being a B-movie actress. Which doesn't make you a lot of money. She could go back to acting.

40:46Doesn't make you a lot of money, though.

40:48Camilla: Well, if you try to go from B to A, then it makes you lots of cash. But if she went from B to A, you would be saying that's purely because she's a royal and she's married the Duke of Sussex. No, I think if she's a good enough actress and she can land Hollywood roles, go for it. People are interested in her because of who she is now, aren't they? No one really paid attention to suits until she married Harry. Yes. People are interested in her because she is married to Harry and because of now her status within the royal family or out of it as it may be. This is why I don't rule out her running for office.

41:21Camilla: Politics, surely, when the jam runs out, she could become a quite high-profile Democrat and Harry, as is ever the case, becomes her first man. It's possible. Under the US Constitution, could she stand as Duchess of Sussex? Because I think the Constitution says something about not having any titles of honour. She could relinquish them. OK, and then she's standing as Miss Markle. Nobody's interested in her anymore. Well, no, I don't know about that. I don't know. She may have a go at that, but I think American politics is tougher than that. Yes. Vicky, what's on the schedule? I know it's night time there in Melbourne.

42:04Camilla: You're going to get up in the morning and then what are you going to do? So Megan's off doing private meetings all day tomorrow, so we're not going to see her at all. Again, connected to her as ever brand that she's about to launch in Australia. So Harry is flying the flag. He's going to an Australian football ground to promote the Movember campaign, which was originally an Australian campaign for men's health. And then we're flying to Canberra and he's got a series of engagements at the Australian War Memorial. He's going to lay a wreath. He's going to meet veterans. He's going to attend the last post ceremony, which happens every day at 4.30.

42:39Camilla: And he's going to attend an Invictus Australia event in Canberra as well before he flies back again to Melbourne tomorrow evening. And are you getting into any jolly parties with him late at night, ringing him up on his mobile, with him then saying the next day he doesn't know who you are and doesn't speak to people from the press, just out of curiosity? I'll give it a try, Jacob. I'll give it a try. He was telling me he was very jet-lagged earlier and he was just looking forward to going to bed, so I'm not sure how wild it's going to be. All right. Vicky, we'll let you go to bed. Please do bring us back some Tim Tams and possibly a jar of heavyweight.

43:11Camilla: Oh, I will. And we will see you again on the Daily Tea, but good luck down under. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Vicky. We'll be back tomorrow at 5pm.

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