'Harry wouldn’t have married Meghan if Diana was alive' – ex Royal butler Paul Burrell

0:27The Telegraph And me, Kim and Atomany.

0:42Former royal butler, famously Princess Diana's rock, joins us in the studio, Paul Burrell. Welcome to The Daily Tea. Thank you for having me. Tell me about this book then, or tell us, Tim and I, about The Royal Insider, because you're famous for your first book. This is a follow-up? It is. They're bookends, really. A Royal Duty came first and A Royal Insider came later, purposely because a lot's happened to me in the last 10 or so years. And I really wanted to write it down, especially since we lost our dear late queen. And a lot of people don't realise that my journey started at Buckingham Palace when I was 18 years old.

1:25It didn't start with Diana. It ended with Diana. So I'd never really explored the years that I lived with the Queen and how she inspired me, how she saved me from myself so many times and put me back on track when I went careering off it. So I owe a great debt to Her Majesty and I wanted to portray the woman that I knew so well that you viewed through the crown. and she once said, didn't she, I'm such a remote figure, I have to be seen to be believed. Yes. And I don't think people really understood how warm, kind, generous, Christian, all those lovely words which we associate with our grandmothers, she was too.

2:15And I think I wrote it with love. It's a love note. There is nothing nasty about her life or her reign and I wanted it to be from the heart. And if you love the Queen and you love Diana, then you will love this book. Because, funny enough, in royal circles, she had two close assistants called Paul. She did. You were Small Paul and then Paul Wybrew, who is very, very tall, over six foot tall, was called Tall Paul. Yes. And you worked together. You know how that came about, don't you? No. Well, it's Princess Margaret's fault. she would ring Buckingham Palace and she'd say, can I speak to my sister, please?

2:55And she'd speak to either Tall Paul or me. And then she'd say, oh, to whom am I speaking? And I'd say, it's Paul, Your Royal Highness. But which Paul? Is it Tall Paul or Small Paul? I'd used to say, oh, begrudgingly, it's Small Paul, Your Royal Highness. You're not a tiny man. No, no. It was Tall Paul very tall. Tall Paul is exceptionally tall. Yes, he's very tall. Right. You can see him, if you wanted to have a look at what tall Paul is like, he is walking down the corridor with the Queen in the James Bond sketch. Yes. Before she gets in the helicopter to parachute into the Olympics in 2012. And he stayed with the Queen all his working life.

3:36So we worked together for 11 years. And when did this begin? You entered service at 18, is that correct? 18 in 1976. Right. And so we worked together. He was already there when I arrived. He arrived before me. and we worked together. Princess Margaret was responsible for that small Paul and tall Paul joke and she said to the Queen once, Oh, Lilibet, why don't you change one of their names? It's so confusing. And the Queen said, No, Margot, no, because when I shout Paul, one of them arrives. So we both kept our names. Paul stayed with the Queen for his entire service until she died. He's the longest serving servant the Queen ever had.

4:20He served for 48 years. Goodness me. Whereas I jumped ship and went to the Walesers and looked after Diana until 1997, Paul continued. And Paul was always there beside the Queen. There's a nice story in the book about the Queen smiling at you when you first joined. Well, you're not supposed to smile at the Queen or look at her directly. You smiled at the Queen. Sorry, I went the wrong way around. I did. Right. I did. Well, you see, Junior Footman served the potatoes and gravy. So ran the table at a meet the people lunch, which you may have been to or you may be invited to in the future. We served the small stuff, not the meat or the main things, but the trimmings.

5:01And I remember going into the 1844 dining room for one of those lunches. And I remember being in awe of the Queen as she sat there at the end of the table, never having seen a member of the royal family other than at Madame de Sourds. I was gobsmacked and I couldn't stop looking at her and as she looked up she smiled and I smiled back. I didn't think I'd done anything wrong until after that lunch I was berated by the palace steward, think Carson in Downton. Yes. A portly figure, the palace steward, in charge of all the male staff in the palace and he ripped a slice out of me and said, Paul, you should never look or smile at the Queen.

5:45She doesn't like it. But the Queen did say, who is that young man? So obviously I stood out and can I take a closer look at him? Would you send him upstairs? I'd like to look at him further. So I was sent upstairs that week just for a day for the Queen to examine me. So I knocked on the door and went in there and she said, oh, you're Paul, aren't you? I said, yes, Your Majesty. I'm from the north of England. Yes, Your Majesty, and I bowed. And she said, do you like dogs? I said, I love dogs. She said, well, let's see if they like you. Oh, God, the test, the ultimate test. It wasn't the Balmoral test.

6:25This was the Buckingham Palace test. So she gave me each lead for each corgi, nine corgis and a Labrador. We went down to the garden entrance and ran across the palace lawn, I could see the curtain twitching. Now, luckily for breakfast that morning, we'd had sausages. And I'd wrapped a couple up in some tissue and put them into my tailcoat. Why? I thought they might come in handy later. But did you know you were meeting these dogs or did you just think you wanted an 11s? No, I knew the Queen had all these corgis and they were her favourite pets. It's very prescient, isn't it, to take a couple of sausages?

7:03I was thinking ahead. That's why he got the job. So as I got behind the summer house, I gave them all some sausage and ran back with them. And when I got back to the Queen's room, she said, that's quite extraordinary. They do like you. Yes. I think I'll keep you. Really? Just imagine if she said, you didn't give them any sausages, did you, Paul? And you went, no, I didn't, Your Majesty. She never knew about the sausages. You're like the corgi whisperer. But what's interesting, I think, about the late Queen, as you say, there are no bad stories in this book. Often when a person in public life passes away, someone somewhere has something slightly nasty to say.

7:40There's been an incident. And that absolutely didn't happen following the death of Elizabeth II. But she had this reputation for being quite cold. I think most members of the public that never met her associated her with a quite austere look on stamps and banknotes. But she was actually quite a smiley person, just to go back to the smiling thing. and you appear, and we'll get on to Diana in just a moment, but you found her one of the easiest of all the royals to work with. Absolutely, because you knew exactly where you stood with her and meeting her, people would say there's an aura around her, a space which no one can penetrate and you always knew every single working day where the line was and you knew not to cross it into her private and personal life.

8:32Yes. And every morning I would stand to attention and bow and say, good morning, Your Majesty. I tried to do that with Diana in later years, but she would dismiss with that and say, don't be silly. There's no one around to witness that. You don't have to recognise me as a royal highness or a princess. You're poor and I'm just me. So come and sit down at the table. There was none of that informality with the Queen. The Queen was concerned about the people who looked after her and gave them lots of attention. But she never really embraced you physically or brought you into her private domain. That was rare.

9:13Do you think that was her personality? Or is it just in the nature of being a monarch? She was just doing what you need to do when you are a monarch. Yes, I think she's a lady of a certain generation. Right. And very cautious with everyone. She was very measured. And when you met her, it was almost as if you could hear her thinking. She was, when she spoke to you, she spoke in small sentences, never really explained herself at great length or depth, never really showed great emotion, but would speak to you, oh, really? Do you think so? Oh, how very kind. That was the Queen's speech to you. and you had to decipher what she actually meant.

9:58On many occasions I was still in front of her and she'd say, well, I really don't know the answer to that question. You'd better ask Prince Philip. What was he like? Formidable. I steered clear of Prince Philip. Did you? Absolutely. Did everyone? I mean, to be fair, he also had very, very long-standing staff, which is a sign of somebody actually being very popular behind palace gates. Dedicated staff around him. But we young footmen, we were frightened to death of him. Yes. Because he was very shouty and very alpha male. Yes. He loved the ladies around him. My wife was his maid. Took great care of her.

10:40Would bring her gifts back from tours, boxes of chocolates, little presents and things like that. Very kind to the female staff. But to the male staff, they were usually all bloody idiots. Yeah, bloody well get on with it. Oh, bloody idiots. Send them up to Gordonstone. put them through their faces. Make them a bit tougher, a bit harder, like me. You know, alpha. That's what we want. But what did you observe about the Queen and Prince Philip's relationship? Because you're saying in the book that they did always sleep in the same bed. I did. Which, by the way, that's an intimacy too far, perhaps, Paul Burrell.

11:12Is it, really? Well, when so many commentators have said, especially the Crown, have said they slept in separate bedrooms. Well, you know what? History is not written by scriptwriters. It's usually written by people who witnessed it, who saw it at first hand. And I thought it was important to say they had a loving relationship. And in my day, between 1976 and 1987, I know that they shared the same room. Prince Philip always did have his dressing room with a bed in it, in case his engagement was early in the morning and he wouldn't want to wake the Queen, or in case he was ill, had a cold or a cough and he wouldn't want to disturb his wife's sleep because she was queen after all and had to continue with her daily duties.

12:01But I know that when Peggy, the dresser, took that calling tray into the marital bedroom, I knew it was for Prince Philip because Prince Philip drank Darjeeling tea and had a digestive biscuit on his morning calling tray. Oh, so he woke up to a biscuit? He woke up to a biscuit. That's quite controversial in a way, isn't it? You'd expect them to wake up to a boiled egg. I don't think this is a revelation too far. I think this is actually endearing. Yes. It's almost middle class. It's suburban. But that calling tray, you see, taken in by the maid to the queen in bed, she never had a calling tray, only on Easter morning and Christmas morning because she thought it was too spoiling to have a cup of tea in bed.

12:45Yes. So she would watch Prince Philip drink his cup of tea, then pinch the digestive biscuit for the corgis, who would jump on the bed. Now, that is middle-class life, as you've just explained. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I say about kind of intimacies because one of the criticisms of you has been that you've spilled too much, that you've shared too many secrets. Just in the book, looking at this, for instance, this could be quite sensitive. You say that the late queen was allegedly diagnosed with a type of bone marrow cancer known as multiple myeloma just weeks before Philip died. She was given until Christmas 2021.

13:21And I'm saying this because it's quite controversial. I know she's passed away, but there was always a huge amount of intense secrecy around royal health matters and indeed her death. Yeah, but I kind of remind you the Prime Minister also said that before the Queen died. But you're saying that she said to her doctor, I'd like to see my platinum jubilee. Can you keep me alive for that? Yes, that's true. because she didn't want treatment. She didn't want to be a sick queen. And what she feared most, I think, towards the end of her reign was the fact that there might be a regency put in place. If she was too sick to perform her public duties and continue to be queen, then Charles, it would open the door for Charles.

14:05At that time, there were already bridge meetings in progress and they're the meetings that take place without the monarch, which determine the course of the next monarchy. They were already in place. The Queen never attended them. So Charles was already meeting with his advisers, waiting for the day when he would be king. The Queen didn't want to accelerate that. She wanted to live and reign for as long as possible. Sure. That was her intention. But do you have any sympathy with, for instance, Prince Harry, when he has quite unpleasantly described you, as I think the words were, a deceitful little shit, for speaking so much about his beloved late mother and spilling so many of her secrets.

14:54Well, Harry is the right one to criticise me. I know now, but when your book, the first book, A Royal Duty, came out, both Harry and William were incandescent with you, weren't they? Yes, but you have to remember, Camilla, what I was put through to that stage. I was taken to the highest court in the land without any defence. The prosecution ran for three weeks, smeared my name across all the national press. Just to explain, you were accused of stealing... I was accused of stealing items from Diana, Princess of Wales, things that she had given to me. Yes. And I'd explained to the Queen at Buckingham Palace shortly after the Princess's death that I would not stand by and let everyone else change history.

15:39What was happening at that time, there was an attempt to rewrite Diana's legacy and her history. There was no one there to stop it. I said to the Queen, I do not have a legal right, but I have a moral obligation to protect my princess in death the way I did in life. And that's what I did. Right or wrong, that's what happened. The Queen stood there, accepted that. Now, just before I was about to give my evidence in the courtroom, the Queen came forward and said, but Paul told me all along what he was doing. He was protecting Diana's world. The case was mounted on the fact that I told no one that I did this all by myself.

16:24And the fact that I told the Queen, the case collapsed. The Queen's intervention, the first time a monarch in British history had intervened in a criminal court case. The Queen did it for me. But she may have been doing that to protect Diana and not you. I never asked her that. I don't know if that's the truth. But you took the stuff away because you didn't want people pouring over her things, things being lost. That's right. Or destroyed. At that time, the family, Mrs Shankid, was shredding personal documents. Diana's mother, stepmother. Yes, Diana's mother. Diana's mother. Missy Shanky was shredding personal documents.

17:03The shredding machine was smoking. It was that hot. And I could see Diana's world in which she took great pride and which she protected fiercely was disappearing before my eyes. What do you do? And I thought about this very carefully. What would she say to me? Would she say, Paul, let my family take care of it, let them do with it what they will? Or would she say to me, Paul, why don't you do something about this? You protected me all these years. Why are you standing by and doing nothing? So I felt an urge. At the time of grief, because I'd lost a woman I cared very much about, I loved Diana, in a platonic sense, and we were a unit inside Kensington Palace.

17:50This was our world. And I felt fiercely protective of Diana. So what do I do? I was in a dilemma.

18:09The portrait you give of Diana and Charles' marriage in the book is one that's quite a volatile relationship. It was. And you say that Charles asked you to lie on his behalf and you refused. That's true. Charles today is now our king. Yes. Are there aspects of how he behaves in public that you look at and think, that's the Charles I remember? I think you saw it. There's a tetchiness. I think you saw it when the pen leaked, when he was signing documents and he was getting very frustrated by it. Realising he was in public, he could not display his emotions the way he did in private behind closed doors.

18:45Ask anyone that knows him, he does have a volatile temper. He is like a bottle of pop, as my wife would say, up like a bottle of pop, and he will not come off the ceiling if he's really furious about something. And it happened to me behind closed doors. My working relationship with Charles and Diana was very difficult in those days when I was at Highgrove because Charles was seeing Camilla Walker Bowles during the week and Diana and the children were coming to Highgrove at the weekend. Just to clarify on that, you arrive in 1987. Yes. The Queen dispatches you to take care of the Waleses. Yes. How quickly does it become apparent to you as the butler that Charles is having an affair with Camilla Parker Bowles?

19:31Immediately. How? Because he would disappear. He would have an early dinner one night and say, I'm going to bed early and I don't need anything else. And five minutes later, the car would pull up at the front door and he would be gone until the early hours of the morning. I knew this routine. I knew what was happening within the Walesers' marriage, but I had to keep the two worlds apart. How does a butler do that? So did you discuss that with Diana? No, I didn't. Because I think what was important in those days is to serve both. And I tried to tread a line between both households. A lady-in-waiting at Buckingham Palace warned me before I left the Queen.

20:14She said, Paul, you don't realise what you're heading into. all isn't well in the Wales household. I had no idea what she was talking about until I arrived. And I saw these two different worlds existing alongside each other. Diana's world with her boys, she would come every weekend and play Happy Families and then he would return to London because the boys were at school. And I'd have to look after the prince during the week. And an incident happened when Diana rang me in the week and said, I'd like to speak to my husband. I knew he was out. So I put the phone down and said, let me try and find him.

20:55I left it a few minutes and came back and said, I'm afraid I can't find the Prince of Wales. He must be out. Out? Where? Out where? I said, I've no idea where he's gone, but he's not in the house. Well, I'll speak to him in the morning and put the phone down. So the next morning, when the prince came down for breakfast, he went into the library, and the little flag dropped into my box and the bell rang, library. I went in there and he said, close the door behind you. And I thought, that's very unusual, he doesn't usually say that, so I closed the door. He said, did you speak to the princess last night?

21:34I said, yes, I did, Your Royal Highness. What time was it? I said, it was late, it was half past ten, eleven o 'clock. And what did you say to her? He said, where did you tell her I was? I said, well, I told her that you were out. Why did you say that? I said, because you were, Your Royal Highness. Do you have to tell her the truth all the time? I said, are you asking me to lie for you? Yes, I bloody am. Yes, you will lie for me. And he started to turn puce in the face and started to bang his knuckles on the table. Then he rose to his feet and said, yes, you will lie. And when I'm king of this country, you will continue to lie for me.

22:18And I was frightened. He picked up a book in this rage and he threw it at me across the room. I dodged the book, opened the door and sidled out and thought, oh, I'm in trouble. And what happened? How was that resolved? Well, it wasn't resolved. It just sort of, he went into breakfast, I went about my duties, but I honestly thought at that moment in time, the writing's on the wall. And I was thinking about my family. This is my livelihood. This has paid my wage. My boys were at school in the local village. We had a home on the estate at Highgrove. And I thought the writing's on the wall. Well, what I didn't know was the writing was on the wall because a few weeks later, the royal couple announced their separation.

23:05And as part of that, Charles said to Diana, you can have anything you want. Take anything, anything. What do you want? Do you want the clock in the hall, the silverware? You take it. She said, I'm taking Paul with me. You said, well, you can't take Paul. But I need him because he came from my mama, and I need him for one day when I get to be king. She said, no, Charles, you said I could take anything, and I'm taking Paul. That's how I ended up back in London. My wife cried for a week. She didn't want to leave Highgrove. We had an idyllic life down there. But I'd fallen foul of two households warring with each other and I'd fallen off the tightrope.

23:47A very difficult job to negotiate a manoeuvre between the two. And I think it's an unprecedented position for someone to be in. I was caught in the crossfire. It's like you're a member of the family. But I wasn't. I never was a member of the family. I was always a servant. And I think what servants have to remember is you are employed to do a job. You're not indispensable. And you can lose your job tomorrow. Always keep your eye on the ball because you may not be there forever. But when you did end up going to Kensington Palace to work with a then sort of post separation, pre-divorced Diana, that relationship that you'd been used to with the other royal woman in your life, the late queen, was totally turned on its head.

24:37Actually, Diana did want a much more intimate relationship with you than the sort of Downton Abbey, upstairs, downstairs, master, mistress rather, and servant situation that you had had with your previous boss. So how did you manage that? Well, Camilla, that had changed over the years. Diana had got closer to me, my wife, my two children. We'd become a unit at Highgrove so that when William and Harry came, they had playmates. Yes. And my boys would spend time in the nursery. So I'd end up serving sausages and beans at tea time to four boys around the table, my two included. So we'd been assimilated into her world long before I actually moved to London.

25:24So when I moved to London, it was a continuation because Diana would say to me, we'll be one big happy family. You know that, don't you? She said, I will take care of you. And as our furniture van rounded the corner of Kensington Palace, she was stood there with a huge bunch of flowers to welcome us to Kensington Palace to assure us that this was a continuation of royal service. Yes, and you're right I did become more and more intimate As the years passed She needed me more and more And in a way I needed to be there more and more We became codependent on each other And it was a very strange relationship Which many people couldn't understand Most people didn't see it Because it was conducted behind closed doors But when we went travelling, for instance so we went to Pakistan, to India, to Egypt, the princess would always insist on an adjoining room to mine.

26:24She would always say, Paul has to be next to me because I need him to be there. Because she would discuss the daily programme with me, the people she'd met, what was she going to wear the next day. I'd have to wash her clothes, I'd have to iron her trousers and her polo shirt. So I became her dresser, her butler, her confidant, all those things. Your wife was never jealous. Yes, absolutely she was. Absolutely she was. She said there's three people in my marriage too. Diana was one of the most beautiful people in the world. Absolutely. But Diana and I had an understanding. We had a relationship which had no barriers and we understood each other intimately.

27:04And my wife understood that relationship too. She said to me, she's your baby, isn't she? I said, yes, she is. And she needs you, doesn't she? I said, yes, she does. She needs me more than you do because you have our boys. Diana doesn't even have hers. Well, hang on, is that right? Hers are away at boarding school. OK. I mean, tell us a little bit. She had nobody. Tell us a little bit because it's interesting now in the context of what's happened post-Mexit, the fallout between William and Harry, the recent news that Harry has seen his father while visiting London for the Well Child Awards recently.

27:41I mean, what was the relationship like between Diana and the two sons and then Charles and the two sons? Well, Diana hardly saw her boys because in lots of years they were at boarding school. And she said to me, when they have school holidays, they need to spend them with their father and with the royal family, with their cousins, because that is the institution they will grow up in. I can't offer them anything here at Kensington Palace. They would spend two weeks with Diana in the summer. She would go away somewhere. Necker Island, for instance. She'd take them on a summer holiday because she didn't have a home other than Kensington Palace to take her boys.

28:22She had no venue. With country pursuits and things. No country pursuits. No Balmoral, no Sandringham. So she said, it's my duty to give them up to the royal family. So her relationship with her boys wasn't the best it could be. But then she's considered to be the better parent in the eyes of the public because she was closer and more demonstrative. The famous image of her holding out her arms when they're reunited on the Royal Yacht Britannia. Comparatively, we have Prince Harry painting this picture of this very awkward relationship with his own father in the aftermath of his mother's death, Charles sitting at the end of the bed, breaking the news, not necessarily hugging him.

29:03And then some allies of Charles have said, that's unfair. Actually, Diana was quite performatively demonstrative in front of the cameras, but actually Charles loved his sons just as much as Diana did. I've no doubt that Charles loved his sons, but Charles wasn't as tactile as Diana. And Diana, you have to think about how old were the boys? What are we talking about? Are they school in London or boarding school? The school in London era, Diana was always there for the boys. She brought them to Highgrove over the weekend. Charles wasn't. She did the school runs. She was always in the nursery. She fed them.

29:41She bathed them. She changed them. She was always there until they went to boarding school. And then there was a void because she would have to travel down the M4 and stand at the touchline to watch them play rugby, football, cricket, fill their pockets full of sweets when she shouldn't. Charles didn't. He sent Tiggy Leg Burke to do that job, the nanny. So Charles wasn't as tactile or hands-on with his boys until Diana died. Then he realised he had to take a responsibility. And he did take his responsibility very seriously. And in recent years, as he's got older, he's realised it's very important to have a relationship with his boys.

30:27is very close to William, and because of this rift, he hasn't been close to Harry. It's a wonderful thing that he has realised that they have to come together. And so Harry now has this relationship with his father growing. It's a small step, a step in the right direction, and a step for good. For good morally or permanently? For morally, for the king, now being head of the Church of England, he takes that very seriously. He's a religious man. And forgiveness is at the top of his list. So he's the one making the effort to reach out to Harry, even though Harry's broken all the rules. Now, don't forget, Harry was born in a very privileged role.

31:13He was born a royal prince. He was taught the terms of engagement at a very early age. And through his formative years, he knew what he should do and what he shouldn't do. But when his mother died, those rules were changed. And Harry forgot what his duty was. His duty, according to his mother, would be to stay with William, to be his wingman, to be there for him on his path to monarchy. Someone to lean on, someone to trust. But of course that changed when he met Meghan. And two worlds collided. The American culture and the British culture thrown together in a pot. What would Harry do? Well, of course, he's going to go with what his wife wants, isn't he?

32:01Because he loves her terribly. And when the children arrive, they're a unit. So he's doing the right thing for his family. I understand all of that. But then don't interfere with what you've left behind. As our late Queen said, you can't have one foot in the camp and one foot out. It's either all in or all out. And then they will be two separate worlds. But Harry wasn't content in it being two separate worlds. I think that's very interesting, Paul, because reading Spare, Harry seems to think that his decision to stand by Meghan is what his mother would want. But actually you're suggesting maybe not.

32:37I think his mother was proud that her sons were royal princes, that one would be king and one would be his wingman. And I think Diana was a monarchist. She'd want the monarchy to survive. And this would be a difficult decision, wouldn't it? Choose love or duty. Harry chose love. And in a way, I suppose that's what Diana would have chosen too. She would choose love. So I'm not sure which side of the fence Diana would have fallen. Because she'd want to have one foot in and one foot out. She'd want reconciliation though, surely. She would want reconciliation. Particularly between the brothers. Absolutely.

33:16But William is a different kettle of fish to Harry. Harry wears his heart on his sleeve and you see what he thinks and feels. Not William. He was never like that. William was always the boy that stood in the corner, watched everything, considered everything and was measured. Because he always knew that one day he would have to make serious decisions and that he would be king. He always knew it. It was drilled into him. It's being drilled into George now. You see George in public duty. He's serious. He's polite. He's measured like his father was at that age. Whereas little Louis, he can be naughty.

33:55He's the Harry of today's generation. What do you think Diana would have made of Meghan? Ooh. Well, what if but, could have, should have? If Diana had been alive, I doubt whether Harry would have married Meghan. Why do you say that? Because when Harry was lost in a wilderness and his heart was broken, you saw his heart break walking behind that coffin. You saw that. And for the next years going through his life, he was lost. Lost. He didn't know where love was. He tried to find it with some girlfriends but couldn't find it. When he heard a 36-year-old mature American woman whisper something into his ear, along the lines of, you and I could be a great team, or we could change the world.

34:49He didn't hear Meghan's voice. He heard his mother's voice, because Harry was always searching for love, and he found it with Meghan. Final question. What do you think Diana would have made of Kate? Kate has never put a foot wrong. She's a perfect example of what a future queen should be. She would have adored Kate. she might have had a few rows with Megan because she's more feisty but she would have adored Kate and those children she would have lapped them up especially Charlotte Paul Burrell, thank you very much you're welcome thank you Paul

35:42Thank you.