How weak Starmer left Britain defenceless: Rebel armed forces minister reveals all

0:03Camilla: The Telegraph.

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0:41Al Carns: ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I just want to say that I'm back with a new podcast. Feedback with Ira Madison III. Every Thursday, I'll dissect whatever's taking over my group chat. like who Wes Wilson from Summer House is banging this week, whether film criticism and black art can actually coexist, why every man on a dating app is either illiterate or reading Middlemarch with no in-between, and whatever the hell is going on with heated rivalry fans on the internet, you know exactly who you are. I'll be joined by friends and other culture makers to dissect pop culture, politics, and the media, and all the ways the internet has rewired our brains permanently.

1:26New episodes of Feedback drop every Thursday starting June 18th. Subscribe now to Feedback with Ira Madison III wherever you get your podcasts. I should get that.

1:45Al Carns: Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com

1:58Camilla: He's the man who resigned over Keir Starmer's refusal to spend more on defence. We're joined by renegade MP and ex-military man Al Karnes. It leaves the PM on a precipice, accused of failing to invest in the security of his country and now pushing a social media ban that critics call pointless. And we speak to Kemi Badenock, who accuses leadership hopeful Karnes of being a bit of a narcissist. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. and me, Camilla Tominey.

2:39We're delighted today to be joined by Al Kahn's Labour MP for Birmingham's Selly Oak, but originally from Aberdeen, and I'm sure very happy about Scotland and Haiti. Delighted.

2:51Al Carns: I'm looking forward to an England-Scotland World Cup final. Who do you support? Because you're from Aberdeen, but you now represent Birmingham. I support all of the countries of the United Kingdom, but I have a definite bias towards Scotland. You were, until last week, Armed Forces Minister. You resigned in the footsteps of John Healy, who resigned, saying that the government's defence investment plan did not have sufficient funds for the threat that we face. You wrote that the armed forces were being asked to operate in a more dangerous world on a budget written for a calmer one. Now, let me get the timeline right here.

3:26On June 11th, you appeared on TV and said that you would have to see what was in the defence investment plan before deciding whether or not to resign from your job. Less than an hour later, you had resigned. So what happened in that very short period to make you do that?

3:45Al Carns: Well, there were two things, just a correction on that. I'd been brought into the defence investment plan about two weeks before. OK. So this defence investment plan had been building for some time, months and months, and I'd only been briefed on the detail of what was in it, what capability we were going to continue to provide for armed forces two weeks prior. So I was already a little bit miffed that I hadn't been involved or included in the decision making as to what our armed forces require us to fund. Is that normal? So I've worked for three defence secretaries, and in some cases it is, some cases it isn't.

4:14Al Carns: It's primarily who you want in this, around the table, discussing those capability decisions. So I hadn't been brought into the defense investment plan. And then I had to wait for the, we were trying to horse trade things in and out of that defense investment plan, you know, right up to the very end. And then when a financial settlement was sort of exposed to me, the two didn't match. I actually think there were three key reasons why I'd run out of road in government. The first one was that the financial settlement, you know, 0.08 increase, 2.68 by 2030, was not going to deliver what we required given the threats that we face and we see around us every day.

4:49Al Carns: and we can talk about that in a second. The second bit was the defense investment plan was no way, shape or form transformative enough, given the lessons of what we're seeing in Ukraine. And so it was buying kit, I thought, for the last war, not the next war. The funding profiles and the capability delivery tanks, whatever you want to deliver drones, needed to be delivered this side of 2030, not in 2033, 2034, because the rest of Europe is heading to 2030 timeline. And then And the final bit, which is intrinsically linked, was the moral component. So why are our forces fighting? They have a contract with us.

5:26Al Carns: They do a hard day's work. They work on the front line. And then we need to support them after their service. And I have been toe-to-toe in the Legacy Act, the Northern Ireland Legacy Act, about bringing veterans back to court and ensuring that we have a balanced program toward truth, reconciliation, and justice. I'd lost trust in that ability to deliver, so I couldn't ask veterans to have trust in it either. Okay, but can you explain what precisely happened in that hour? Because cynics within Westminster are speculating that what happened in that hour is you were told you would not be replacing John Healy.

5:58Al Carns: And I think that's a very good line to spin to make it look like me and not the system. And I absolutely understand why the system would want to do that. I'll be really clear. I've sat in government for the last two years trying to take 24 years of military experience. some working for Secretary of State's three defense secretaries and trying to get the military back into a space where it has the capability and capacity to fight the next war. I had run out of road trying to achieve that. Forgive me, you wouldn't have stayed had you been offered the job of defense secretary. I think it's a poison chalice unless they were going to give you more money, allow you to renegotiate the dip, i.e.

6:36Al Carns: what's in that dip, which bits of drones, ships, planes that we're buying, and move on the Legacy Act. Okay, in which case it's hard not to infer a comment upon Dan Jarvis, because he has taken that poison chalice. Why do you think he's done that? So first of all, I want to be really clear, Dan Jarvis is a good friend of mine. I think he's top quality. He's got good military pedigree. He's an ex-paratrooper, and he has a very steady hand at this type of business. And remember, someone's got to steady the ship. We have a 30 % increase in Russian activity and surface and subsurface activity in the high north.

7:09Al Carns: We have 15 billion pounds worth of cyber attacks as a whole. We're in the Middle East now, a peace deal, which we're going to have to play a part in. We've got war in Ukraine taking place. So someone's going to need to hold it. And I think Dan Jarvis is a good man to hold it steady. He's going to have a difficult fight. I thought there was some movement two days ago when we saw a bit of movement around funding. It seems to have closed off. It'll be interesting to see where that goes. And I'd also like to see that defense investment plan. I wouldn't say, it doesn't need to be torn up, But it really needs to have some of these capabilities injected in and delivered this side of 2030.

7:38But would you advise a man of character to resign if he can't improve upon the plan?

7:43Al Carns: Well, I would say John Healy resigned on principle. I resigned on principle. And it's down to others to decide what they need to do. And I think we've got to leave them the personal space to come to their own conclusions. But you see the problem here, as you're saying, effectively, the ship is sinking because the government's not spending the money necessary to keep us safe. but you're also applauding Dan Jarvis for stepping in to keep the ship afloat. I mean, which is it? Does someone at some point just have to say to the Prime Minister, frankly, none of us can make this ship float so long as you're continuing to deprive it of the necessary times?

8:14Al Carns: So I see where you're coming from. But as we talk, there are pilots flying defensive combat air missions in the Middle East. There are soldiers in the trenches in Estonia, you know, looking over the border at Russia. And we have ships, you know, pursuing Russian submarines in the high north. someone needs to hold that line, needs to carefully articulate and understand the risk and clear them in the SEAL submissions that come up. I think Dan Jarvis is a good man to do that. And there's a bit about when I left, you know, a little bit of not leaving my post. I was like, I've got to leave this responsibility because I really care about what happens to armed forces.

8:49Al Carns: It was a really, really difficult decision. But I have said on the record in the next three to five years, we will have a geographically constrained confrontation with a hostile state. Yes. And if that is the case and we don't get it right now, there's every chance we will lose lives in the future.

9:06Camilla: OK, so mindful of everything you've said and the very perilous times we face. And we can look if we wanted to, historically the armed forces being hollowed out by successive governments. Just put that to one side. Take us inside the thinking in the Labour government because you're talking about military types holding the line. Why isn't the prime minister and the chancellor holding the line when it comes to defence of this nation? Not least when Keir Starmer does pride himself on his international statesman credentials. He's leading coalitions of the willing, yet he seems to be very unwilling to spend the money that's needed to protect this great nation.

9:45Al Carns: So I'll be really clear. I think actually Keir Starmer on the international stage has done a very good job, especially the stuff that I've seen. First of all, I wasn't included in any discussions between the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. That was the sector of state. And I haven't been included in a defence investment plan. And so it is difficult for me to give you the in and out working of government. What I would say is that if you are, and as the Prime Minister has said, that we are heading towards potentially conflict, then we need to fund it properly. Now, nothing is black or white in government.

10:14Al Carns: It's always a trade-off. But that needs to come from a central prioritisation, decision-making in the centre. And if we decide that defense is the central coherent principle of the government, which was also said previously, then it should be. What I would say is that we continue to talk about defense in a silo. And we think of tanks and planes and soldiers and sailors and airmen and women. We need to think of defense as national resilience. It's a much broader issue. Economic security is linked to defense. Our industrial policy needs to be linked to defense. Our foreign policy affects your gas prices.

10:49Al Carns: we can no longer detract ourselves or disconnect ourselves from global conflict.

10:54Camilla: No, I mean, Mr. Carnes, you're preaching to the converted here. This is the rhetoric of the Telegraph comment desk. But just to drill into the issue here, what is going on then with a prime minister and a chancellor who have repeatedly boasted of this massive boost to defence spending that they're now not going to commit to? Clearly, there is something ideological at play. Now, it could be that there isn't the appetite for spending more on, say, defence as there is on welfare or indeed the NHS. The argument being mounted by critics of this decision is that they're prioritising welfare over warfare because ultimately they think they'll get more votes for it.

11:32Camilla: And that's extremely cynical when, if the former Defence Secretary John Healey is to be believed, that decision making is leading to Britain being less safe. The quote was less safe.

11:44Al Carns: So I would say two elements to that. The first one is, whether we like it or not, Labour has always spent more on defence than the Conservatives, especially in recent history. And this government has spent more on defence in the last two years than the Conservatives spent in the last 14. That's positive. The trouble is the geopolitical situation, the threats that we face are actually moving even faster. And this is where this dichotomy and this gap is starting to build. When we talk about welfare or warfare, I don't think it's actually welfare or warfare. I think it's a much broader issue across all of our government departments.

12:24Al Carns: And I've been really clear that we need to really get our country back into productivity and then take the slices off that productivity and make sure it's then prioritized against the outputs that we want to deliver, which is primarily defense.

12:36Camilla: One of the blockers to this is Ed Miliband and his department. You know, we've reported and others have that when told to cut his own purse strings on his net zero zealotry, some think not least Telegraph readers, he resolutely refused. Now, that's reportedly been refusing to even meet Keir Starmer to discuss it. Now, that's extraordinary when you consider, as you've talked about, how there's a bigger picture at play here. And actually, our defence and security plays into our energy security, which therefore plays into our cost of living crisis. So if you've got immovable cabinet ministers like Miliband and actually the prime minister and the chancellor are bowing to them and not to you and John Healy, then that tells the public everything they need to know about the government's priorities.

13:21Al Carns: So I'd say two responses to that. First, the conflict in the Middle East, and even now, if the Straits of Hormuz open and get back to 120, 130 ships a day, it's stopped on average perhaps 6 ,000 to 7 ,000 ships going in and out to the Straits of Hormuz. That economic ramification we're going to feel for the next two years. Some of the infrastructure destroyed in the Middle East will take five years to fix. That's just the LNG sort of processing facilities. So there's going to be a ripple effect from the Middle East for a long time to come. The second bit is, from my perspective, less net zero and actually ensuring we have energy security.

13:56Al Carns: And I would like to see a very balanced transition from oil and gas towards green and renewables to ensure that we, as a labor government, protect jobs as we transition through. Because we are losing hundreds of jobs in the Northeast in particular. Remember where I'm from? I'm from Aberdeen and people speak to me all the time on this. And I would like to see that balanced transition. I'd like to see the profits of some of that transition go into people who are struggling with the energy costs.

14:22Camilla: So do you think Miliband hasn't got the balance right? Because he thinks he has and you seem to be saying he hasn't.

14:26Al Carns: Well, I would like to see a balanced trajectory towards not net zero, but towards energy security. And that's the way I look at it.

14:33Camilla: That's not his trajectory, is it? His trajectory is headlining into net zero. So are you saying Ed Miliband isn't being balanced?

14:40Al Carns: What I would say, and it's down to others to comment on the specific figures and the economics of it, is that oil and gas, whether we like it or not, is here to stay for a generation. Let me put it to you that you're in the wrong party. Absolutely not. Well, what have I talked about here? I've talked about jobs. Yes. So our decision making in government is absolutely critical to ensure that we sustain jobs for individuals who are trying to put a meal on the table, trying to get their kids to school in their car and trying to pay their mortgage. If we're making decisions that are putting people out of jobs, then that's not the right thing to be doing.

15:17Al Carns: Understanding that we may want to get to net zero and energy security, we need to make a balanced transition to it to limit the impact, not just on the jobs, but on the cost on everybody's pocket. across the country. And I think that balance is exactly where we need to go. When I talk about defence and we talk about bombs, bullets and battleships, I'm talking about national resilience. I'm talking about cadet forces, giving people a lift up and allowing them to be more mentally and physically resilient to achieve much more in school and then go on to succeed. I'm talking about how we can give people opportunity.

15:50Al Carns: Remember, I come from Aberdeen, a relatively rough area, and I got an opportunity. That's why I'm Labour.

15:54Camilla: But you're sounding like a conservative.

15:56Al Carns: Well, no, I think we need to be realist in our policies.

15:59Camilla: Again, you're sounding like a conservative.

16:01Al Carns: Well, that's entirely up to you and your opinion. What I would say is, being brought up in a relatively humble background, I was given a chance. I had the rigs to go to offshore, oil and gas. I had the military or I went slightly awry. I was a little bit of a rogue when I was young anyway. I then went into the military and I found that I got a lift up and out. I always say... Sorry, sorry, you were a rogue. You weren't stealing the lead off church. No, but I was, you know, I was brought up in a relatively rough area. Okay. And so I joined the Marines. That channeled my energy. It made a man of me.

16:34Al Carns: It gave me principles. It gave me boundaries. It gave me a structure to live my life. And it brought me up and through. What I'm saying to you is if there's lots of areas of this country that have been left behind. My sit in Birmingham and my constituency, I cannot describe to you some of the level of deprivation.

16:49Camilla: Yeah.

16:49Al Carns: That can't be right in a G7 country.

16:52Camilla: No.

16:52Al Carns: It just can't be right. I've been to some of the worst places in the world and I now go to areas around our country. And I'm like, how have we allowed this to happen? And one of the reasons is because we blame the individual, not the environment. So I always say if a plant is wilting, it's not the plant's fault. It's the environment. It doesn't have the right water. It doesn't have the right food. It doesn't have the right sunlight. I was one of those individuals who could quite easily have gone left or right and away from the military. But guess what? The military captured my imagination. Up and away I went.

17:22Al Carns: And here I am now, rightly or wrongly so as an MP.

17:24Camilla: You could argue that if your constituency has got pockets of deep deprivation, which I do not doubt, that the last two years of Labour government probably haven't helped. You know, youth unemployment has gone up by 2%. People are really struggling. And communities seem more fractured than ever. So the Labour solution so far is not really ticking any boxes.

17:44Al Carns: And so I can understand perspective, but I just want to throw back at that. and there's lots of criticism in this space, but I would say the people that I've met in my constituency, for example, lifting the two-child benefit cap, has lifted 450 ,000 children out of poverty. We have some of the highest child poverty levels in Birmingham. The Renters' Rights Act, the workers' rights, actually really support some of those individuals that are just getting by. And I think they're great things. I would say the Youth Guarantee that Pat McFadden launched two weeks ago, it's a fantastic initiative, but I want to scale that times 10.

18:15Al Carns: And this is part of the issue. For example, I mean, take some of the facts and figures. You can add circa around this because they're not exact. $300 billion on mental health is sort of the impact has on the economy. There's$110 billion of that that has lost economic output. $130 billion, which is the human cost, and$60 billion on the NHS. Now, let's work on how we can make our country more physically and mentally resilient. But that costs money. It might come from the defence budget. That's what the government's trying to do. It's trying to balance all of these demands. It's really, really difficult, but we've got to have a long-term vision.

18:49Al Carns: You mentioned two years. Two years to change anything is exceptionally difficult. Sometimes you've got to go down before you've got to go up.

18:55Camilla: Well, Starmer might need to go down before he comes up. I was just thinking, Tim, you come in, but you're not just sounding like a Conservative. I take that. You've batted that back at me fine. But you're not sounding like an ordinary MP now. You keep saying I want to do it. You're sounding like a future prime minister. Is this also about your own leadership bid?

19:11Al Carns: This is about me. Be honest. Okay, I will be honest. This is about me having a voice outside of government now and saying the things that I've always been saying in government, but haven't been allowed to speak them outside of it. OK, well, Kemi Badenoch has been asked to comment on you and she said this. I wouldn't be surprised if Alcantz is launching a leadership bid very soon. I don't want to be cynical, but he's not afraid of getting in front of a camera, is he? I'm not afraid of anything. I might get fun.

19:39Camilla: But are you going to run? I mean, let's just ask you that question straight out. We've got Burnham in this by-election on Thursday. don't know whether he's going to win or not. That's his own attempt to unseat Keir Starmer. We know it is, regardless of what everyone's saying. There's then going to be a leadership race, which the Prime Minister wants to stand in. There's a huge amount of speculation that you're also going to stand. Are you going to stand?

19:59Al Carns: I don't think it's as black and white as that, because I haven't actually made a decision either way. I would like to see a couple of things. I'd like to see, in particular, a large chunk of MPs listened to within the party who have great ideas and really want to be bold. and we need to be bold and courageous. The only way we are going to sort this country out in the next three years and head on our continual democratic process, my view, is unless we go really bold over the next three years. And that's primarily around education. I think it's so education. Make ourselves a education superpower.

20:30Al Carns: When do you ever see a failing education system and a failing economy? I want to see, above all else, I want to see us move towards mental, physical health resilience and preventative healthcare strategy. And those government departments start to feed into each other and a combined strategy to deliver outputs rather than silos. And I want to see us, and I'm being really honest, I've said this a thousand times, I want to see us add a trillion onto our GDP in the next 10 years by harnessing the talent we have in this country, the entrepreneurial startups and making business come here, provide jobs in exchange for skills and opportunity across society, not just really high end degree courses.

21:12Al Carns: But this was all, I mean, these are the type of thing, the arguments and discussions we should have.

21:15Camilla: That's fine. But people might be listening and watching this with a degree of cynicism, because we had all this from Keir Starmer. We had all this with a manifesto, with him in a power stance and the word change written on the front. You know, you seem to be, inadvertently, it's probably not on purpose, damning Keir Starmer with your own analysis of what is needed. You're saying we need to be bold and radical. By implication, you're saying he hasn't been bold and radical. And frankly, if I can use a military analogy, you don't want to be in the trenches with Keir Starmer, do you, Al-Khan? So that's the problem here.

21:48Camilla: He's just weak and not good enough.

21:50Al Carns: I'll just be really clear. I really enjoyed being in the trenches. I'm now in politics and in a different type of trenches.

21:56Camilla: because, you know, to use that analogy, you've been at the sharp end. I don't think you're the type of bloke that wants to follow Keir Starmer over the top.

22:05Al Carns: So I have been in government now for two years. I've sat in a veteran's job and now I've sat in this job. I've met Keir Starmer once in an official capacity to talk about the issues surrounding my portfolio once in two years. But my honest view is that he is a good, decent man trying his very best against significant headwinds. What I am saying, and I say this ever so gently, we need to be bold, courageous, and we need to run this like we've lost it. Because if we don't, in 2029, if you end up with a conservative reform coalition government, you'll have a 16 % pole swing towards Scottish independence.

22:43Al Carns: And in 2031, you won't be dealing with any new idea that reform brings to the table. You'll be dealing with a customs union and a border crossing issue going north. And it will be a disaster. I did not fight for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I fought for the whole of the United Kingdom and we must hold it together because we're in the foothills of a Brexit style disaster. But forgive me, if you get a reformed Tory government, you probably will get the defence spending that you've been asking for. And secondly, the SNP has done well.

23:15Camilla: You might even get national service. The SNP did well in the last round of elections, well-ish in considering the context of the enormous leadership scandal they had on Nicola Sturgeon. On your watch, Labour is not beating the SNP right now.

23:29Al Carns: And this is the point, though. Reform didn't beat them either. And Scotland sees reform as an English nationalist party. And if you have a reformed conservative government, you will see an increased swing towards independence that will be deniable for any government to stop. And it will happen in 2030, 31. And you won't be doing national service or defence spending. You'll be cutting up your GDP back to Scotland and talking about the nuclear deterrent and our place in the world, the beacon of hope, which our country has been, irrelevant of which government has been in, for the last couple of hundred years, we forged democracy, created all sorts of things around the world, is a way to tear itself apart.

24:05Camilla: Are you sure about that, though? Because reform has performed well in Scotland, much better than the Conservatives, and indeed, I take Tim's point that... Wales too. The rise and fall of Sturgeon happened because of Labour's inability to retain those seats. Labour's collapse in Wales. Indeed. And the rise of Labour and reform. Well, devolution, ironically, because it was the invention of Tony Blair, has proved to be rather disastrous for the Labour Party. You know, 24 years, was it, of Labour rule in Wales, educational standards down, NHS waiting times up, Drakeford frankly humiliated during Covid.

24:38Camilla: Similarly, even if you reflect on the whole camper van gate, I mean, it's extraordinary that Labour aren't making more headway there with the lefties when you consider everything that's gone on with Peter Murrell, Nicola Sturgeon and beyond. Good grief. So you're having a go at the right. This is a left problem.

24:53Al Carns: I'm with you. I think I should let you keep going because I'm not a fan of the SNP either. I mean, we used to have one of the best education systems in the world. Now look at it. Taking us out of the ratings because it's so bad.

25:04Camilla: But you take my point about in light of all that, when you're considering an electorate that is majority left-leaning, Labour should be mopping up there, not Nigel Farage.

25:12Al Carns: So I just want to be really clear. If we step back and look at this, look at the way it's going. We have, and this is one of my concerns, and I've said this on the radio the other day, is that we have some parties seeking to highlight division and discord, champion the problems in society, split communities along race, religion, indeed some micro cultures that we have in the UK. My concern is that that is sat at a lower level. And if we end up in the next four years moving towards a reform conservative government, it goes national. And what I want to be really clear is that we have the analysis and the discussion about what that means.

25:50Al Carns: Because I love this country, the United Kingdom. I'm a proud Scotsman, but I love the country and I need it to hold it together, especially in this geopolitical environment. And it's a really interesting fact. It will link on to your next point in social media, which I know you're coming on to. About a year ago, when American Israel struck Iran, they destroyed a couple of targets in and around Tehran. And you can argue rightly or wrongly so, it's down to others. When they struck those targets, it destroyed 3 % of all Scottish independence media. Just have a think about that. Just let that sink in to your listeners.

26:23Al Carns: 3 % of Scottish independence media was being produced by Iran. Now, Iran's propaganda budget is minuscule in comparison to Russia's. Russia has$1.5 billion in its propaganda budget. Now think of the social division you can sow here in the country that results in this country breaking apart without firing a bullet, dropping a bomb or sailing a battleship. And I'm really concerned that when you look at the Wales leader in reform getting 10 years for taking Russian money and you look at the system, how it's starting to sow division in right down to the lowest level, street to street, community to community.

27:00Al Carns: And then when you step back and you think, actually, hold on, are we defeating ourselves? and actually where are the hearts and minds of the country and who's affecting those hearts and minds. And I think we need a really detailed analysis into that. You've made a lot of social media videos which have gained a great deal of attention. Are you sad that people under 16 won't be able to see those? So can I be really honest? The social media ban as a whole that came out today, I welcome it. I hope it brings the tech industries into negotiation for much more nuanced solutions. but I do not understand why on earth we are allowing our children unfettered access to extreme images on one hand and extreme violence on the other.

27:44Al Carns: You cannot stop it. It would be like allowing a weirdo into your kid's bedroom. You have no control over it of what they look at. I have two boys and a daughter. My young boys speak to me about things I would never have considered when I was young.

27:58Camilla: How old are your children?

27:59Al Carns: 14 and 11.

28:00Camilla: Okay.

28:01Al Carns: 22. too but my point being is I just can't understand it. It would be similar to a news agent when you were young taking the top shelf of the news agent magazines, bringing them down, locking kids in there and saying read whatever you want.

28:13Camilla: And have some sweets while you're at it. But with a VPN people have got a key to the show.

28:18Al Carns: That's where the nuance comes into. Tearing some strips off those tech companies and saying you're responsible for this. You need to police it. Would your mum and dad ever have allowed you to go into an 18 on R rated movie when you're 11 or 12? No. Then why on earth are we alone?

28:31Camilla: Why on earth have... I mean, I had two older brothers. I was watching all sorts of inappropriate films when I was too young, but whatever. With that in mind, then, why not go the full hog and actually ban smartphones for under-13s? Why do under-13s need a smartphone at all?

28:48Al Carns: Yeah, so I think the implementation of that, the safety elements that phones... And I know there's lots of different views of it. I think we've got to be careful. There's this balance between individual freedom of speech and individuality and collective security and then everything in between.

29:03Camilla: They can have a brick phone. They just can't have an iPhone or an Android.

29:06Al Carns: I would say that the ban has come in. I think that's a good thing. What I'd like to see is consistent, very focused iterations of the legislation to hold the tech companies to account to ensure we are protecting our youngest people in society.

29:18Camilla: OK. Before you go, can we ask you some quickfire questions just for fun? It's a bit of fun, Al Khan. Let's do it. Up for fun. Favourite war film?

29:27Al Carns: Saving Private Ryan.

29:29Camilla: Is it? Favourite military leader in all history?

29:33Al Carns: Churchill.

29:34Camilla: Interesting. I don't know why I'm throwing this in, but we throw them into every quick file. Favourite James Bond?

29:40Al Carns: Sean Connery, obviously. Obviously, as a Scotsman. Favourite Prime Minister? Clement Attlee or Churchill.

29:46Camilla: OK. Favourite Scottish food stuff?

29:50Al Carns: Haggis. I mean, everybody loves haggis, surely. I thought you might say Tunnock's Caramel. A battered black pudding.

29:56Camilla: And how many pints of Iron Brew could you consume in five minutes?

30:00Al Carns: Thousands. It's made of girders.

30:02Camilla: Al Kans, thanks for being a good sport. Thank you for being so clear in your views. And thank you for coming on The Daily Tea.

30:06Al Carns: And thank you for having me.

30:08Camilla: Coming up next, we've already discussed social media. But what does Kemi Badeknot think of the ban? What are the Tories' defence plans? And why does she think Tim has had a glow up?

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31:07Camilla, this morning we went to listen to a speech by Kemi Badenok about defense. And it strikes me, having spoken with Al Kent, who we've subsequently discovered voted conservative in the past.

31:19Camilla: Yes, surprise, surprise. It's striking how similar their criticisms of the government are. Yes. It's not just the not spending enough on defence. It's the lack of a bold, big vision for the country. And of course, net zero as well. Well, we spoke to the opposition leader after that press conference, and this is what she had to say. Kemi Badenock, thank you very much for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you. I've just listened to your speech about defence. You said the government is not serious about it. Now, if he were here right now, Keir Summer would say, the Tories underfunded defence. I have made the commitment to raise defence spending from 2.3 % to 2.6 % in 2027.

31:56So it's heading in the right direction to hit 3.5 % in 2035. How would you respond to that? Defence spending has been going down since 1989, since I was nine years old. There's no point us talking about what went on for those 30 years. The fact is we were spending a peace dividend and the peace dividend has now been spent. These are new threats that are coming in. The world is more dangerous than it has been before. And we need to get ready for those threats, not talk about the threats of 20 years ago. That means we need 3 % by the end of this parliament. And the fact that the Defence Secretary and the Armed Forces Minister have both resigned, saying Keir Starmer is not keeping the country safe is extraordinary.

32:41It's unprecedented. I don't think we should, you know, underplay the gravity of the situation that we have right now. You've made the offer before to Keir Starmer of we'll work with you to cut welfare in order to spend more on defence. And that was obviously ignored. Today in your speech, you repeated that offer to Andy Burnham. Yes. Do you think he might accept? Well, I think that it's important that we know what Andy Burnham is going to do before he gets into the job that he is trying to take off Keir Starmer. I think having somebody whose plans are unknown is extremely disrespectful. If he really wants to be the prime minister, then he should be brave enough and bold enough to say exactly what it is that he's going to do.

33:21And it is my job to hold Labour to account. That is what I am doing. I worry when I hear Keir Starmer saying, well, he's increasing defence spending, he's talking about increasing defence spending. He's actually cut defence spending this year by three and a half billion. Most people don't know that because the smoke and mirrors of him talking about increasing it later while cutting it now seems to be working. He is not increasing defence spending this year. He's asked the department to find cuts. We need to stop him messing around. John Healy has done the right thing by exposing what was going on.

33:57Everybody else needs to join in, hold Keir Starmer to account, and let's find a solution. By making an offer to Andy Burnham, you're not making it to Al Kahn's, you're not making it to West Streeting. I assume you think he's going to win the by-election and he is going to become prime minister. Is that the plan that you're working on? Well, actually, I've written to more than Andy Burnham. I've written to several people. But the truth is, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who the Labour leader is. It's still the same backbenchers. It's still the same Labour Party. And as I've said, they're not the Labour Party anymore.

34:28They are the welfare party. Pat McFadden, the welfare secretary, had his text messages to Peter Mandelson exposed. And what did he say? That all Labour MPs want to talk to him about is who can we tax to pay for benefits? That's all they care about.

34:43Camilla: The other big story of the day is the social media ban for under-16s that the Prime Minister announced this morning. I was with him earlier because we both appeared on This Morning on ITV. And I made an argument that went a little further. I know you're supporting the ban in principle. You're a mother of three. I'm a mother of three. Your children are slightly younger than mine. So we've both been through this. I said, actually, if you really want to do something substantial for those generations, you should just ban the smartphone for under 13s full stop. Then you get around the issues of, oh, well, what if they circumvent it with a VPN?

35:15Camilla: What if they do this? What if they do that? I think primary school children and smartphones just don't mix. Would you go even further than the Prime Minister? So I don't think primary school age children should have smartphones. Our policy is to ban phones from schools. There are very good reasons why children in year seven, for example, might need a phone. There are no red telephone boxes anymore. If you do need to call home, it's actually, as something's happened, it's actually very difficult to do so. But having the phones in schools distracting, I think, is a real, real problem. I also want us to distinguish between smartphones and social media.

35:54The social media worries me because it allows strangers to contact children. Their algorithm is designed to be addictive. Social media making a lot of money off our children. Social media should be for adults, not for children. Kirsten has only done this because of amendments which Conservatives put in place. We got them through bills in the House of Lords. He's been pushed into this. It's not something that he was interested in doing, but I'm not going to complain or let the perfect be the enemy of the good. He's at least done something. We will want to tidy it up.

36:24Camilla: But might you be minded to go further? I think that, well, there's all sorts of weird stuff that he's brought in, like the curfews for 16 to 18 year olds. That doesn't really make any sense. But let's see where we get to. With policies like this that come in on the fly, because they didn't have a plan, I think we should see how it's working for us before proposing we go further. There's a lot that we'll need to clear up in terms of how it's going to work. It's not going to help everybody. Some children will circumvent with VPNs and so on. Some parents won't care and will let their children go on social media, just as some parents give their children cigarettes.

36:59But what I want to see, what I want to see is a culture change. We didn't have, you and I didn't have social media when we were growing up. Happy days. Yes, indeed, indeed. And we've seen a generation now that has grown up with it. And what have we seen? More mental health problems, more anxiety, more depression, fewer friends, more fear. And this is contributing to our welfare bill. It's all linked. So if we can get people off social media, we should see fewer young people going straight from university onto benefits, as we have been seeing in recent days.

37:30Camilla: From smartphones to a question about smartness from Tim, who you've noted, Kemi Baydnox, had a bit of a glow up lately. I haven't. It's the lighting. A lot of people were concerned about the prime minister when he appeared this morning with a t-shirt and a tracksuit top. And of course, Andy Burnham never wears a tie. What do you think about politicians dressing as though their life has fallen apart? And will you demand high sartorial standards if you're prime minister? I do believe in high sartorial standards. I haven't actually seen the prime minister's outfit this morning because I was giving my own speech.

38:03But I do think standards are dropping everywhere. I think it's important that we have men wearing ties in Parliament. I think women should be dressed appropriately. You hear that, Tim. Can we be pointing out that you've asked

38:15Camilla: this question, you're not actually in a tie yourself. Yeah, ties don't go well with stubble. That's the issue. I certainly think in Parliament we should do. I've been in Parliament when Labour MPs, I should say, female Labour MPs looked like they were going to a nightclub afterwards. I think that we've got to set the standards. We've got to set the standards in Parliament. So I always make sure that I'm dressed appropriately. We are representing our constituents. So high sartorial standards, yes, absolutely. The women in Westminster are setting these standards that you must achieve, Tim Stanley.

38:44Camilla: Kemi Badenok, thank you so much for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you, Camilla. Thank you, Tim. So that's a nice endorsement, isn't it, from Kemi Badenok to you? It is. I'm not quite sure what a glow up is, but I can assure you I've not had one. You have, because you've got these new spectacles. And a glow up is where you have a kind of like a renaissance later in life where you were perhaps not as attractive as a student. For instance, I'm speaking personally here because my eyebrows are just... Some of the photographs of me from the 90s are so embarrassing. I guess more on the 90s than you.

39:16I don't think anyone looked good in the 90s.

39:19Camilla: I put on a lot of weight at uni as well. I will show you at some point. But anyway, I'm regarded to have had a bit of a glow up. I mean, I don't want to brag. And she was just saying that you looked like you'd had one. I've always been good looking. But what I will say, and some people will identify with this, is how I look changes according to the weather. Yes. It really does. I cannot tell you what colour my eyes are. Well, they're bluey, greyy, green. Exactly. Well, mine are a bit mysterious as well. It changes according to the season. So in winter, it does look like I've got grey eyes. And then in summer, I find they go blue.

39:54As you can tell, I spent a lot of time in front of the mirror.

39:57Camilla: Yes, indeed. Asking who is the fairest journalist of them all. I've had to kill several people who the mirror mentioned. Can I, by the way, say, just to quote David Cameron, put on a bloody tie. I mean, if you could ask about sartorial standard, look at you in your open neck shirt. I know, but it's because I cultivate stubble and I just think a tie with stubble looks worse than stubble without a tie. OK, but I'm just saying I want to see you clean shaven and suited and booted tomorrow. When I am clean shaven, I almost always wear a tie. All right, I'll also have a shave for tomorrow. And we'll both be back at 5pm.

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