‘I can’t see this working’: Andrew Lownie on Harry and Meghan’s ‘damned’ return

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30Camilla: and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. ACAST. ACAST.com slash advertise. Prince Harry says he'll hold his tongue in order to help mend relations with the royals, but also Andrew Lowney says the move back to the UK could put his marriage to Meghan under strain. And what percentage of the British public are opposed to them moving back to Blighty? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Hannah Fennes. I just can't see this working and I wonder if this is maybe, you know, maybe that there's something that breaks the camel's back in terms of their relationship.

1:17Camilla: Now, Hannah, let's call this episode Harry and Meghan, colon, the return, dash, the latest. the biggest debate going on in my mind right now is should we be calling this the meganescence or just the meganescence i'm gonna say i love regrexit it's hard to say but written down is brilliant regrexit that is absolutely exceptional i love that hannah you're going to interview andrew lowney in just a moment and he is the man who has exposed all of the foibles of Andrew and Fergie. Let's put that to one side for one minute because where are we now? We're on day two, day three. How is this all landed?

2:01Camilla: What do we think the British public think of this now in the cold light of day? Yeah, day three or day 300, who can tell at this point? The British public, so there's a difference, isn't there? The polls are still incredibly anti-Sussex. Meghan and Harry's approval ratings are incredibly low, a very low proportion of people want them to come back to Britain. When you talk to normal people, you know, your actual, like the schoolman WhatsApp groups, the feeling is just gossip and buzz and what is really going on. Nobody really understands it. There feels like there's, and I feel the same, actually, there's a bit of missing information here of what is actually the key to them coming back.

2:40There are a lot of theories that make about 80 % sense. Nothing quite makes 100 % sense. We got a little bit closer, possibly, to the truth this morning where there were stories that Meghan has been offered and accepted an acting role which would make sense for her to be in Britain which answers a little bit of we kind of understand emotionally why Harry wants to come home the family element the returning to Britain the children growing up in a community and a British schooling system the missing piece of the puzzle was why would Meghan want to come after everything this might fill it yeah I actually thought that

3:14Camilla: was quite an interesting revelation so we think she was offered a cameo role playing herself in something is that what this refers to or do we think she's actually got a bigger role in something else no she what she has taken a cameo role in a film which has already been filmed out in america so it's not that this we don't know yet presumably there'll be some kind of announcement in the coming days i don't think the sussex camp have confirmed it by the way um i'm really enjoying the theories have you got any well i'm just trying to think now like could she come into eastenders um some kind of like american export maybe danny dyer had a long lost sister she's back in rivals could she be in rivals now that's so my favorite theory and this is totally made up somebody said it to me as a joke but i've convinced myself bridgerton as lady whistledown which is a voice voiceover she loves it's netflix shonda rhimes it's a long-running series which would mean she'd have to be here for a while yes convinced myself wow yeah i like the idea of voiceover although frankly no hang on a minute i mean we don't just want to hear her if she's going to do an acting role i want you know full-throated thespianism at its highest level i want her imagine if she like pops up in theatre in the West End or something just you want an Oscar no more daytime Emmy nominations you need an Oscar or nothing I want yeah I want an Oscar or I want an Emmy or I want the one in the theatre that I forget the name of that Ellen Page has run a load of what are they called can't remember thank you Tony I want yeah we want a statuette uh winning performance if she's going to do anything at all the other theories that have been buzzing around this is let's just quickly go through them this is something to do with tax this is something to do with visas this is something to do with the children's citizenship or as a correspondent to the daily tea jill has pointed out is this because they want the children to have british accents well they loved that they say zebra you remember that megan disclosed that was it was it megan or harry i forget what they say zebra or zebra that they say zebra it's the one of the A few things that they copy Prince Harry on rather than their American mum.

5:30Bit random, but yes. It's interesting to me that there are so many theories about it. It's interesting that nobody can take this at face value. None of us working in the press, nobody watching from home, can seem to get their head around the idea that they might just want to move back because it's a nice thing to do and Harry's dad hasn't been well and he wants his children to know his father better. It's interesting, isn't it, that we're in a climate now where nobody can quite believe that there's just a very straightforward family reason for this.

6:01Camilla: But on citizenship, who's got what? Harry retains his British citizenship. Does he have dual US nationality? She has US nationality. And what nationality are the kids? I mean, we don't know, because if you remember all the way back to Prince Archie's birth, when he was here, you imagine that. I remember the almighty fuss about naming godparents. Oh, yeah. which was very conventional in the royal family because they're in the line of succession and being the head of the Church of England was incredibly important. Harry and Meghan declined to share the godparents of Archie and it was a big kerfuffle at the time and people fell into two different camps of its privacy, of course they shouldn't, and its constitutional monarchy, of course they should.

6:40So if you set that as the baseline of when they were within the royal family and the late Queen Elizabeth was alive, imagine how little now that they're willing to disclose. So citizenship comes under that. Lily was born in America, so presumably that is American citizenship. Archie was born here. You'd imagine there would be joint citizenship. Meghan, as far as we know, did begin the process of British citizenship when she was here, but it was never completed. Does that mean she'll restart it again when they come home?

7:09Camilla: They've got to be careful. Under Prime Minister Nigel Farage, we could be careful they're not going to be deported. I mean, that would be more a restore thing, But it's funny that they're leaving Trump to come back to a powder keg politically over here. And talking of heightened tensions and emotions, I did try and spare a thought for Bucklebury when this first broke and wondered whether a May Day alert had gone up in the Middleton household with the cabin rapidly depressurising. I'm now thinking that Kate and William will have had an emergency landing for their holiday because aren't they meant to be in Scotland?

7:43Camilla: Aren't they in Balmoral? They are in Balmoral. it's the end of their summer holidays that's where they always spend it so the king arrived on tuesday the whales is arrived a little bit later this week um they're there now they're going to have a lovely weekend hopefully in the scottish countryside you can imagine where are they talk where are they no i'm saying are they gonna have a good time well maybe the children will you can imagine there are going to be a few conversations i mean the the various royal camps are obviously allergic to this idea that there's some kind of emergency summit The Prince William hasn't flown up to Scotland to sit down with his father and have a big pow-wow about the sausages moving back.

8:21They just were going to go there on holiday. But yes, the conversation might be a bit different.

8:26Camilla: Emergency summit over Balmoral barbecue sausages. Listen, they'll be discussing it, Hannah. Come on. I know we say that this is no ordinary family, but in some respects they're very straightforward. And if this had happened to any of us, you'd be gathered around some late night wee drams discussing how to manage this. The only thing that surprised me over the course of the last 72 hours is how quickly the conversation has moved from incredulity to, yeah, actually, there'll probably be a reconciliation. Yes. It's like extraordinary this. Oh, will there? Oh, right. OK. Yes. And the pressure that, you know, they're already coming under a lot of pressure to be the bigger people.

9:04Prince William especially like why doesn't he hold out an olive branch to his brother well there are lots of reasons why he wouldn't do that actually and I think we in the press sometimes and certainly people in the public who are interested who have followed the royal soap opera for decades there is this idea that the storyline needs to move on to a reconciliation there's some desire from some people for that to happen sort of immediately forgive and forget I think behind palace walls people have much longer memories. Yes, of course. They remember the ins and outs of this situation because it was so damaging for them personally and damaging for the monarchy, or at least threatened to be.

9:41They've survived it quite well. If you think about the Middletons, as you say, they've watched their daughter, Prince William's watched his wife, go through the most impossibly difficult time of ill health and come out the other side, thank goodness. and they've had about three to five minutes of peace haven't they they're finally all back on back in action everything feels calm the children are resettled at school they turn their minds completely to george settling at eton as well as the other children it's a big milestone for the whales is coming up and all of a sudden in the same week eyes are not just going to be on one quite young boy going into a new phase of his life in a very controlled straightforward way it's going to be the Sussex kids are going to British schools Harry's doing the Well Child Awards it's this whole different climate that they're now being launched into with no real

10:32Camilla: warning as far as we can tell I mean as far as the children was concerned I kind of thought this morning well now they're in the country whenever there are major royal events I mean they can't not invite them absolutely suddenly whether or not they're in an official role or not they're enveloped into the royal scene just automatically. I mean, you couldn't possibly turn around if they're living in the Cotswolds and say, oh, no, sorry, you can't come to Trooping the Colour. I just don't see how you can... Maybe you can, but maybe you can't. Listen, this is interesting. Just to finish before you speak to Andrew Lowney.

11:03Camilla: Harry will hold his tongue to retain the king's trust. So you and I have discussed in the past, along with Vic, this problem that the Waleses quite understandably have with... with well they don't regardless of how badly they may still feel about the revelations in Oprah and Spare and Netflix there was also this constant worry about being sucked into the psychodrama and like as soon as they comment on Harry and Meghan then there's a briefing war then a lot of indiscretions are made and there can't be any family secrets kept or not even salacious secrets just you know they want to protect their private lives and they can't do that if they feel that their nearest and dearest are revealing stuff they don't want them to reveal so this is interesting is this some kind of admission then by the duke of sussex that you know he's spoken out of turn too much and actually if this is going to work they can't be revealing the contents of family whatsapp groups they can't be filming stuff backstage at windsor i mean i don't know but i mean is this even credible from harry we've this was why he was parodied on South Park right this idea that they are on a privacy tour trying to court publicity the worldwide privacy tour they'll never get away from South Park bless them um on Harry yes it does feel like a bit of an admission that he's maybe spoken out of turn one too many times I don't think he regrets it you know he said often that he doesn't regret anything he says he feels like he's spoken his truth he thinks it's a good thing to have it out there I hope that I don't doubt that this is a good intention actually it's it's true this is what he wants to do and plans to do it is the latest in quite a long line of good intentions that have never quite happened so I can't count the number of conversations I've had over the years where it's we're not going to brief the press anymore we're not going to do tours that are disruptive to the royal family we're not going to do an interview here we're not going to say anything about the royal family there we're definitely not going to comment on the king's health there have been a lot of good intentions along the way that have yeah fallen by the wayside every time so I think there is an element of you know the old phrase show us don't tell us show don't tell as journalists obviously we say tell us tell us please tell us more yeah if I was in the royal family I think I'd be thinking look show me yeah show me you can do this and that's how we build the trust saying it is one thing but doing it is another it's not I'm not going to say anything for a month if you're rebuilding a relationship over a lifetime it's i'm not going to do this again no that's right there's been so many twists and turns on this the next thing we know they'll be coming on the daily tea hannah they'll be calling me up and saying listen i know a lot's been said and done all is forgiven but at the end of the day we do like that yellow teapot um we want to come in for a cuppa and they are welcome can i just say that now right hannah we eagerly await now your interview with Andrew Lowney.

13:58Camilla: He never pulls his punches. So very excited to listen to it. And no doubt we'll be speaking again next week. So in the meantime, before we speak again, Hannah, next week, we've got weekend tea with Poppy and Michael tomorrow on Saturday. And on Sunday, Tim Stanley and I have a rare falling out.

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14:59we are now joined by andrew lowney who is best known for his astonishing insights about prince andrew in his book entitled and a forthcoming book untitled which is absolute genius andrew welcome thank you for joining us you also have insight into harry and megan can you tell us a bit about what you're hearing now why are they moving back now well I think we haven't really got the full story yet and we're getting very contradictory briefings from the palace and from the Sussex sources but I think the thing is it didn't work in America and they're kind of trying to reinvent themselves back here in Britain and in some ways it's it's a very clever move because it puts both the king and the prince of Wales in a difficult position they're damned if they do anything they damned if they don't and I think it takes quite a little brass neck to do what they've done because clearly they're not very popular in this country but they weren't very popular in the states so this is just a new beginning for them and what I think is so extraordinary is they seem to be running now three houses and one wonders clearly where this money is coming from to allow them to do this if they are kind of going to work towards or Harry's going to walk towards more charitable work and away from his commercial activities.

16:16And how do you see it landing here both in terms of what they can do in Britain, what they can do logistically but also what the public will accept them doing and how is the royal family going to manage this or not be able to manage it perhaps? Well I think it's very difficult for the royal family. I think all they can do is the current sort of containment strategy which is to kind of ignore them in the hope that they will kind of run out of steam. I mean, clearly Princess Anne and Prince Edward can't be happy because this just further undermines the sort of good work that they do. This is a distraction from royal activities and kind of rather sort of sends it all up.

16:55So I don't know what they're going to do. I mean, they've tried this in Australia. They kind of have this clever thing where they, and Sarah Ferguson did this as well, where she would say, I'm doing something for charity, but actually you would find that she was being paid in some way behind the scenes for her appearance or back end for a free tv interview or whatever it was and i mean do you see a parallel there i mean we would never compare andrew mountbatten windsor to prince harry or their wives and ex-wives um obviously very very serious allegations against one of them and the others just left the country because they were unhappy although it was a little bit complicated but do Do you see parallels now in how their lives are unfolding post-Royal Family, the Fergie comparison, for example?

17:41Yes. Well, I mean, I think, you know, Meghan looked at the example of Fergie and felt that she'd had this half in half out relationship for a long time. I mean, she was invited to Sandringham, the Royal Box and Ascot and yet seemed to be able to do commercial activities, particularly in the States in a way. I mean, she was often doing paid interviews and doing promoting Crown Reduce and things as long as it wasn't in Britain. And I think Meghan thought that she could do the same thing. So I can see that she may feel aggrieved that the royal family have turned a blind eye to Sarah Ferguson and yet not allowed Meghan to do the same thing.

18:17Do you think it's perhaps the other way round of the royal family learnt the lessons of the Yorks? And that is why the late Queen Elizabeth II took such a strong stance on the no half in, half out? Well, perhaps. I mean, perhaps they did learn the lessons, though. I mean, there are other members of the royal family who are kind of half in, half out, too. I mean, Prince and Princess Michael of Kent, you know, have commercial activities and yet are still kind of seen as part of the broader family. Zara Phillips and Peter Phillips have very commercial activities, which you could argue come from their sporting achievements, but also come from their links to the royal family.

18:53So that sort of goes on even after the Queen's death. so I think this is the problem that you know people don't want to do full-scale royal duties they want to somehow mix and match and it's very difficult to know how you can make that work I mean the Queen realised that. Half in half out is the phrase we keep hearing this week isn't it on the one hand the King and Prince William are very firm on upholding the late Queen's wishes no half in half out we keep hearing the Sussexes we know believe they have made the half in half out model work to some extent in after the australia tour they were quite clear that that was a blueprint that they thought they could continue they'd seem to reach a bit of a happy um maybe not agreement but you know live and let live when they were in america do you think now there's a case for making things a bit clearer what exactly they can and can't do councillor of state issue for example does that need clarification from the palace what action do you think is necessary if any from the king at this point to make things work?

19:56Well, I think there are a lot of things that need to be done. I mean, we still have Andrew and his children and grandchildren in the line of succession, which I think is crazy. I mean, you know, we now have a third grandchild, a third child for Eugenie, who has actually kind of got ahead of people like Prince Edward, who is, you know, an active working royal. That doesn't seem to be right. You're absolutely right. to me, it just needs the Wales' family to be in some sort of accident together. And suddenly, we've got Prince Harry running the show. So I think that a lot of those things, even though it may take parliamentary time, need to be looked at.

20:33I think one of the extraordinary things is when the Duke of Windsor abdicated, he gave up his position, line of succession, etc., voluntarily. And that's clearly what Andrew needs to do. I mean, Andrew has been kind of taken kicking and screaming at every stage rather than kind of trying to work with the monarchy to ease the changes. But yeah, I think this has created all sorts of fresh problems for the king and the prince of Wales that I'm sure they didn't need. And it's just, I think, a matter of seeing how things pan out. But I think there's going to be very difficult moments where, you know, is something a semi-royal operation, or is it just a clearly obvious commercial operation?

21:20And I think those lines can get very blurred. The Sussexes are very good at these sort of faux-royal events, in effect royal tours sometimes, which have all the trappings of royal pomp and ceremony, but actually have a commercial element to them. And that undermines the credibility of the institution itself. And that's what's so worrying at the moment, that this is at a time when the monarchy is under some, I would say, in a difficult position because of Andrew and the fact that Andrew probably was protected by the late queen and indeed, I think, has been protected by the present king, that this is just one other element to give succour to the Republicans.

22:02And when they left the royal family six years ago, the narrative was very much that this was Harry driving this because he wanted to protect Meghan. They wanted to leave Britain for a happier life for her as well as him. In America, it feels like Meghan has perhaps been the driving force in terms of the setting up the as ever business, the California girl brand that has been relatively successful. Do you see a shift in that dynamic now they're moving back? How do you think this has played out between Meghan and Harry and the decision to move back? Yeah, I think it's a really interesting dynamic because we've always thought that Harry was under the thumb of Meghan and that it wasn't much give and take there.

22:42And now there seems to be an understanding that he, you know, he wants children to have a British education. He wants to come back to his friends. I think he's felt very isolated in California. But I can't see Meghan enjoying a Cotswolds winter with the rain coming down and her mother a long way away. so I just can't see this working and I wonder if this is maybe something that breaks the camels back in terms of their relationship or whether they will go the fact they've left Montecito there whether they will both go back to Montecito but difficult if you've got children in schools here to hike them out of school after six months so this was quite a dramatic thing to do and that's why I say there must be more to this story than just seeking new educational pastures for their children and fresh business opportunities for them.

23:33And who do you think are going to be the winners out of this? Is there a universe where the royal family and the Sussexes all seem happy? Is one going to have to be victorious? Are we going to see rival courts? Well, I think we are going to see rival courts, and that's the worry. I think if Harry was to apologise to his father and his brother about some things, and stepmother things he said, then maybe there's an opportunity here for reconciliation. I think the winner here, if anyone, is Charles. He's got his grandchildren back. He's very keen not to have a fractured relationship between his sons, to keep the monarchy together.

24:15A divided monarchy is clearly not a good thing. So I think he may come out of this. Some people may say he's weak and he's allowed this to happen. Others will say, well, it was a brave thing to do to try and reconcile those two warring brothers and bring the prodigal son back. I think the losers clearly are the Prince of Wales, who is in a difficult position. He can't really win whatever he does. And I think clearly it's a difficult position for other members of the royal family. For the Sussexes, it's a high stakes risk. you know a lot of public um um well very negative comments about them uh and one wonders how some of those events are going to go if there's going to be heckling um so only time can tell i mean you know we've only had this news now for for less than 48 hours and i think there's a lot more still to play for for for all sides and what do you think they can do or should do to to win back the parts of the British public that have felt quite hurt, actually.

25:18I don't think that's an overstatement. People who have grown up watching Harry and suddenly he departed took it quite personally, I think, a lot of this Mexit stuff. What do you think they can do now to sort of win back those elements? Well, I think the apology to the various people, an apology to the British people then, maybe. I think maybe they need to do an opera, where they actually say, look, we made a number of mistakes. We were extremely rude about various people. It wasn't true. I don't know why we did it. I'm sure they have reputation management people who are advising them. But I think there needs to be a certain amount of humility.

25:54I think that they mustn't be shown to be trying to monetize their royal status. I think it should be generally, they should be trying to show it's generally about the future of their family. And basically just keep out of public view. because I'm afraid every time they do some event, they're taking attention away from other members of our family. And we see a parallel here with Duke of Windsor back after the war. He had kind of been contained, sent into exile. There were always concerns that he was upstage his younger brother, Bertie. And that had kind of been sorted out. And then in the 1940s, as he heard George VI was ill, he thought, here's an opportunity to come back and maybe I could stand in as a regent until the Queen is old enough to take the throne.

26:41And we get the sense that this is kind of going on now, that Harry realises his days will be numbered when his brother comes to the throne. So it's an opportunity to kind of stake his claim to get back into the royal family while he can. You know, it's good to know nothing changes in the royal family. The soap opera continues. Andrew, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your insight. Always a pleasure. Thank you.

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