‘I don’t want any child to watch my porn’: The OnlyFans star who’d rather lose money than have teen clicks

0:02The Telegraph.

0:29Camilla: Thumbtack. Upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack. We know homes. Hire the right pro today. You've got social dialed in. Search is doing its thing. So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely. More engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels, and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation.

1:22Camilla: Today, we're going to talk about porn. because a major shift is taking place on the internet in Britain today. Under new powers granted by the Online Safety Act, Ofcom will require all pornography sites and any platform hosting adult content from social media to gaming to enforce highly effective age verification measures. The aim? To stop children from easily accessing explicit material online. An Ofcom report showed that 8 % of children aged 8 to 14 access porn in just one month, showing a desperate need for change. But as the independent pornography review lays bare, the problem goes far beyond filters and firewalls, from concerns over privacy and censorship to the extreme adult content that is filling our timelines with exhibition porn, gangbangs and strangulation, and what this means for our young people.

2:16Camilla: Today's special episode of The Daily Tea will unpack what the new rules mean for tech giants, adult content creators, parents and the free internet. For this special episode, I'll be speaking to an adult film star and an educator who struggled with porn addiction as a teenager. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey.

2:48Camilla: Well, to discuss these weighty matters, I'm joined by Rebecca Goodwin. Hello. Nice to see you. And Sean Flores. Yes. Lovely to see you both. Rebecca, you're on OnlyFans. When did you first get into porn? In 2019. So just a bit before lockdown happened. So I did it before everybody else, not to brag. Oh, yeah, you were there first. Yeah, I was there first, definitely. And obviously it's taken off really, really well for me. I did it in order to support both my children. Yeah. And I've made up to now$4.6 million. Are you joking? No, I am just as shocked as you. I feel we might need to give an advisory.

3:28Camilla: We need to give an advisory to Daily Tears that at this point we are going to be discussing explicit material. Sean, you come at this from a slightly different direction. Yeah. Tell me. Yeah, I've struggled in the past previously with porn addiction. I first watched porn at the age of 11. It became an illegitimate tool for sexual education for me. And I'm not necessarily anti-porn. And Rebecca and I were talking about this earlier. I'm more sort of devastating effects that porn and addiction can have. Anything that takes you to a top can really take you back down to a low. And with anything that is easily accessible on the internet and a lack of education and a lack of conversation around it, it causes massive, profound effects.

4:13And I would say my life is a sum total of that to some degree.

4:18Camilla: OK. I mean, what we don't want this podcast to be is really preachy. We're not in denial of the fact that people watch porn, people star in porn. My concern, I suppose, as a mum of three, two daughters and a son, is how much porn my children are accessing without even trying to on the Internet. You know, I grew up with two older brothers. Rebecca, I don't mind telling you that I was shown some mucky magazines when I was very, very young. I remember one of my brothers bringing me into the other brother's room, putting on a tape. Back then we had VHS and Betamax and showing me some porn. I was like, my God, well, who would have thought it?

4:53Camilla: But what troubles me now is obviously that is accessible to children at the touch of a button. And the whole landscape around porn has changed. And we're going to get into sort of exhibition porn, the Bonnie Blue stuff, gang bangs and whatnot. And what I perceive to be a kind of normalisation normalisation of quite extreme porn, which I know you've both got an opinion of. Let's first of all talk about these changes that are coming into play today because of the Online Safety Act. So this is a requirement for people to show ID in order to access porn. And there's a debate about how they might do that, different platforms requiring people to show their passports or maybe have facial recognition via metrics applied or have credit card checks which prove that the people accessing the material are over 18.

5:41Camilla: Are you worried about that Rebecca? Because from a mummy perspective and let's speak as mums first of all, we should have these safeguards. Absolutely, I think these should have been in place a long time ago. I mean I know with OnlyFans that's already in place so you have to obviously pay to subscribe to an OnlyFans account and they do make it clear that anything that is public such as the profile picture or the cover photo that has to be non-explicit. so anybody that subscribes to OnlyFans has to pay and then they get their credit card checked age verification through there obviously the mainstream porn sites are a lot different it's just clicking a button yes I'm over 18 or no I'm not and which obviously we all know anybody that wants to access the porn is going to just tell a little fib and say they are over the age of 18 there is going to be a massive dip I believe in my income really yeah I think because porn is seen as such a, I don't know, it's seen a sort of taboo still in society.

6:38A lot of people are ashamed to be watching porn. They don't want to admit that they watch porn. Therefore, they're not going to want to upload that ID or face onto a website that sells or just hosts explicit content. So I do think that it's going to deter a lot of people that are of age away from the porn sites just because they'll think that something's going to happen with the information that they're given and it might come out one day. Well, their wife might find out, their boss might find out.

7:08Camilla: Exactly. Excuse my ignorance, this is probably a really naive question, but when you are performing an OnlyFans, do you know exactly who you're performing to? Do you see them? Do you know their age? No, so most of my OnlyFans subscribers are on a fake or a pre-given username such as U245914. So we never actually see their face. So as a mum of two, right, like how would you feel if you discovered that 14, 15 year old boys had kind of circumvented the system? We know what these kids are like, Sean. I mean, you were saying you were accessing porn at 11. You can put on the safeguards. They're better at this tech than we are.

7:48Yeah, definitely. I do feel like that. That's why I don't work mainstream. So I haven't done really any mainstream shoots. I've worked with people that work mainstream, but then uploaded it to OnlyFans. What do you mean by that? Just explain what difference it would make to do mainstream. So mainstream is obviously a lot more accessible and they would pay me one lump sum to go in and do, you know, perform on set. And then they would continue to use the videos over and over and over for years. And I'd probably get maybe less than 10 percent of their revenue from a video that I've starred in after, you know, a lifetime of it being on there.

8:24only fans is a little bit different in the fact that it does have to take especially for like my account which is like 12 50 a month it does have to take a credit or debit card and they do age verify everybody through that um so i don't work mainstream mainly because obviously it's unfair to the workers that are only getting paid a very tiny percentage of the income and also because of It's saying, you know, when you go on to it, yes, I'm over 18 or no, I'm not. I don't want any backlash. I wouldn't want any child to see my content. I'd rather take a dip in money than, you know, know that it's actually 14, 13, 15-year-olds that have seen my content.

9:05Camilla: Or even, Sean, 11-year-olds. I mean, how did it happen for you? So I grew up and I often describe it as the three Cs, conservative Caribbean Christian household. and the household I grew up in you don't have conversations around sex in any way shape or form and that's there's a lot of cultural factors as I said there's the religious factor and there's also the way that things are viewed politically I don't mean it politically with the big c conservative I mean with the small c more family values and they believe in being independent of self and away from the state so for me it started with I had a I had a computer and my friend introduced it to me.

9:47Him and I went to the same school together and he was already watching it before me. I don't remember what age he told me he started, but all I knew is he was watching it before me. Then I was introduced to this whole new dopamine high of so-called porn. And from then on, anytime I got the internet connection, anytime I got a computer, boom, it'd be straight to porn. When I got my first phone, I remember the first song I had on my phone, but I still wasn't able to access porn because of how terrible the internet was. And my mom didn't pay for any data but any opportunity I had go and watch porn in school even in design and technology and I remember it there was a boy that came in on the PSP I don't know if you remember the PSP and he showed us on his memory card he showed us a porn video and he was also obsessed and gripped by porn.

10:32Camilla: How old are you Sean because I just want to just date this. I'm 31. You're 31 so this is happening in the late noughties? I believe so. Indeed okay but that's interesting isn't it because things have progressed quite considerably since you were in secondary school. Absolutely. And I've often said, so I work a lot in schools. I talk a lot about masculinity, mental health and neurodiversity. And I've often said to these young boys that you have no comprehension of what you're about to watch and how it will grip your life potentially. And for the BBC documentary that I did a while ago, one of the young boys in the gym saw me and he said, oh, I saw your documentary.

11:10And he started laughing. I said, like, it's all right to laugh like it's a topic that most people don't want to talk about. But he actually asked me to come into his school and have a conversation about the things that I've struggled with. And it went really well. So I think there's a lot of young kids who understand the ramifications, but there's also a lot of young kids who don't understand the ramifications. And the one thing I absolutely agreed with you on was, I don't want it to become preachy. I'm not here to be necessarily anti-porn. It's about education, having the right safeguards as best as we can, but also understanding the effects it does have on people.

11:41And I think for a lot of the technology that we have in society that's currently in time, it preys on human instinct. So, for example, you think about what social media has done. It preys on the idea of trying to build connections, but it doesn't necessarily do that. You think about what porn does. It preys on the idea for to have sex, which is for the most part a human instinct, the need to procreate. But you don't have the opportunity to go out into the real world. And I think especially of young boys, when I look at social media, I try not to use social media much anymore. I remember there was a point where I'd look at one video and bang, so many OnlyFans models just kept popping up.

12:21Yes. And a lot of girls that I knew on my page personally, I had to start unfollowing them personally because I was like, it's just constant OnlyFans. But I think it's representative of the society that we're living in that people feel the need to go to that.

12:34Camilla: Also, sorry, again, a trigger warning, graphic question coming. When you're 11, are you actually masturbating while you're watching it or just watching it? I mean, are young boys masturbating and watching porn, watching porn for fun or both? I would say boys are pretty much doing both. And I've had very open conversations, depending on the school environment, when I'm allowed to have that conversation. Yeah, boys are typically doing both. And what's happening is porn sets up unrealistic expectations. And I'll use an example of this. I talk about relationships. Relationships are boring. Quite often, they're boring, right?

13:07They ebb and they flow, you go up and you go down. but I think what's happening with things such as porn and social media it's creating this false illusion of a high 24 7 and of a lot of young boys they're becoming so desensitized that they have to go to more and more extreme levels to be able to get the same level of satisfaction and that's down to parts of your brain dopamine you have to keep going further and further to get the same kind of original feeling that you had that's why it is it is a drug I mean this

13:38Camilla: The Sofcom report showing 8 % of children aged 8 to 14 access porn. I think that's too low. I mean, how many 13-plus boys do you reckon, Sean, in the work you've done are watching porn? Are considerably a lot more than people could even understand. And it goes back to the access of the internet, the ease of technology at our fingertips. And I've often said to parents when I've worked with parents that when you give your child a phone, you cannot comprehend they have the ability to access the entirety of the world on that phone. And they go, but I can put in parental controls. You can as best as you can, but children are getting smarter and smarter and smarter.

14:22And you think about, I remember a while, a while back, and I'm not sure if you probably saw this, but there were OnlyFans models on Instagram that were fake breastfeeding. Yeah, that's still quite common. Yeah, sorry. Fake breastfeeding. So obviously the regulations on social media say that breastfeeding is not classified as a sexual act, which it's not. So what some OnlyFans models are doing is they're getting a doll as an excuse to get out their full boob and then placing the doll against the boob. That's obviously no education towards breastfeeding. It is purely just a promotion for their OnlyFans.

14:59Now they can't really clamp down on that because of the community guidelines state that breastfeeding on realists and things like that is technically educational and non-sexual. But there are quite a few of us, not me, that have twisted that and turned it into something sexual, which obviously I'm completely against. Breastfeeding shouldn't be classed as a sexual act at all and definitely, definitely should not be used to promote an OnlyFans.

15:26Camilla: All right, let's get into some of the top line findings from the Independent Pornography Review that was carried out by Baroness Burton and it was published in February. Key recommendations. Let's just discuss them one by one. Ban extreme content. This is about making incest, God forbid, choking, violent, degrading and misogynistic pornography illegal, aligning online standards with offline rules. Really interested in your opinion on this, Rebecca, because to be fair to you, I mean, again, trigger warning, you do like to have a bit of fun with the stuff you're doing, okay? Jesus, I'm going to read these out.

16:07Camilla: Some of your porn parody films include Dicked, I'm a Slagberty, Get Me Out of Here, The Little Spermaid, and this is my personal favourite, it. Hoary Potter and the Prisoner of Ass Gang Bang. Damn, that's a good one. It's a good one. I mean, you do have 560 ,000 followers on TikTok. And as you say, you've done so well that I read here, Rebecca, that you've invested in an affordable housing scheme. You've purchased two bed homes and rented them to low income families. You're a single mother on the bread line. And as you say, you've made millions. Okay. So you're having a bit of fun with this. what's your view on extreme content again I think it comes down to desensitization I think everybody starts off with sort of you know more tame videos such as missionary and then the more you watch the more you're chasing that dopamine so it sort of evolves into something a lot more extreme and now I myself don't really do extreme porn I don't do choking I don't do any of that just because I know that it gives a false illusion of what sex could be or should be.

17:17I think any porn really does that because the kind of porn that people are watching is this idealistic body, you know, the perfect sort of scenario when, you know, that's not really the case. Usually you're just in bed with your partner and have sex. But it's not that that kind of porn isn't readily available. the most popular porn is obviously the most extreme porn. Is it? I'd say so, yeah, especially with OnlyFans because OnlyFans is all about marketing. So I say 90 % of my job is marketing and 10 % is recording explicit videos.

17:53Camilla: How many do you record a week? I do two a month. Two a month? Yes, yes. What, you're earning that much money on two a month? Yeah, again, it's all about the hype. That's what it's about. It's all about the promotion. I could go out and sleep with six men a day. It would do nothing for my numbers because, you know, the promotion isn't behind it. And how long is the video that you record? So 15 minutes explicit, but then five minutes storyline as well, which everyone skips. And with other actors in it or just you? Yeah, with other actors in it. OK, got it. Yeah. So you're not doing it. Do you agree with Rebecca in saying that the extreme end of the wedge is the most popular and paid for?

18:28Well, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting that you only do two videos a month. Technically, it's good for delayed gratification. You don't have such an influx of videos that you can always go on and scroll so readily available. But yes, I would absolutely say that you do naturally become a lot more extreme. I started to watch things that I know personally in real life that I would never do. And it's because of that detachment or disassociation from what I'm watching, but what I would do in the real world. And I think one of the other really big issues with a lot of young men watching porn in particular is, as you said, you go into the real world.

18:59You have real conversations of young girls or whatever you're into. so to speak, and you realise that most people don't want what you're seeing on the internet. It's an incredibly dramatised Hollywood version of sex.

19:13Camilla: Well, it's performance sex. I mean, nobody has that kind of sex unless they're both unashamed exhibitionists. Well, technically sex to some degree is performative. Well, I know that, but I mean not for cameras usually or others. Of course. Unless that floats your boat. But also revenge porn is a big issue now as well. It's a big thing that people are weaponizing porn videos that they've taken, maybe in a loving relationship or whatever it might be. And they're weaponizing it against people. And you think about deep fakes as well. That's going to severely affect the porn market. And it's going to deeply affect the way people perceive one another.

19:47And we were speaking earlier about the whole Lily Phillips and Bonnie Blue and the whole sense.

19:53Camilla: Just explain who they are, Sean, for the uninitiated. I know who they are. I love the term the uninitiated. It reminds me of Batman. man but um so lily phillips from what i remember i slept with 100 guys in a day she had a documentary on youtube bonnie blue is someone very similar and they're competing with one another to see who can sleep with the most guys let me just give you a couple of titles just so that those who haven't heard of these two women know what they're up to yeah so the challenge video titles that bonnie blue has been involved in include the 1000 men in one day challenge petting zoo an event in which she would be tied up naked inside a glass box with the goal of letting 2 ,000 men have sex with her.

20:33Camilla: As a result, she was reportedly banned from the OnlyFans platform for violations of its policy against extreme challenges. She's also held Freshers events, where she's spoken about her mission to sleep with as many, quotes, barely legal teens as possible, and has done events with university students who sleep with her free of charge. So to some degree, as grotesque as it is, I remember I heard Bonnie Blue once make a comment that technically what she's doing is giving young men the chance to sleep with her, act out their fantasies. And I do wonder in some ways if that can be a valid argument or if what she's doing, the negatives far outweigh the pros.

21:14And I think very similar to what porn is. Porn considerably, the negatives far outweigh the pros. But I think this is also an issue in society. If you don't have real conversations, everything gets relatively underground. Anything that happens in the underground festers and never has a chance to come to the light, to have a real, open and honest conversation about it.

21:37Camilla: What confuses me, Rebecca? I mean, what do you think of these sort of mass gangbanks? Because the thing about Bonnie Blue is kind of maintaining that she derives sexual pleasure out of this. and I'm sorry when you're on to bloke 105 yeah I really wouldn't imagine that that is the case see the my biggest issue with what Bonnie Blue is doing is everybody that she is actually working with and in videos with are not certified porn stars this is not their job so that she's taking freshers right they're in university they're studying to do something you step into a video that's explicit that could destroy your career for the future so I try to work with only professionals who have already decided that this is their job um already understand the the cons of doing this because I mean on average on OnlyFans the average person makes 150 dollars per month like everyone seems to think that you make so much money but obviously it is all promotion and that's all Bonnie Blue is doing I don't think anybody would ever go into a porn website and type in woman getting screwed by 1057 men that is something she's had to do for the social media side of it to get everybody's attention and a lot of the people that are subscribing they're not subscribing to necessarily masturbate over the content but they're wondering if she actually did it yes now this is what I'm doing with my content I use the lads we've gone through the titles and it's not necessarily because I want loads of people to masturbate over it but I've got so many straight women that are wondering what's the next storyline going to be right what's happening what do you think you are watched by a lot of straight women oh yeah my audience especially on TikTok is mainly straight women, yeah.

23:12Camilla: Really? Yeah, it is. Sorry, how explicit can you be on TikTok? You can't really be explicit, but that's where most of the traffic comes from. Obviously, there's guidelines on TikTok in place to protect children and they'll remove any videos. Obviously, speaking about a video or just filming a day in the life on TikTok is promotion for that video itself. So are you saying, Rebecca, that you've kind of cultivated and kind of following for yourself almost as an influencer aside from the fact that you're also a porn star? People are interested in your narrative storytelling in some way. Yeah, so I never wanted to be a porn star and I am probably the most insecure porn star you'll ever meet.

23:49I don't think I've ever done a porn film naked. I wanted to start off doing comedy and obviously six years ago when I started this, TikTok didn't monetise, Facebook didn't monetise. So I was doing my comedy clips, putting them out there and I really wanted to monetise it and find a way of doing it but all the men were asking for was naked photos. Funny that, Sean.

24:09Camilla: I'm not surprised. They do tend to do that, men. I am honestly genuinely not surprised in any way, shape or form. And it's the idea that talent doesn't go anywhere unless you sensationalize it to some sort of degree. And we look at what happens on YouTube. So most viewed videos are videos, you know, where it's all aggressive language, screwed, obliterated. There's other terms that people we are naturally drawn to, things that capture our attention. And you touched on something very key. Facts don't change people's lives. stories do. As humans, we are inherently storytelling creatures. If I can get you to buy into a story, you'll come and watch my content.

24:48And that's what people enjoy far more.

24:50Camilla: Yeah. But then the old story used to be when it came to kind of porn, you know, the milkman's at the door, he knocks on the door, he comes up, there's a lonely wife at home. It's now turned into, you know, someone strangled, somebody else is gang banged. if there were any innocence to sort of saucy videos in the 1970s and 80s that's all been stripped away because only fans has come about obviously with porn hub browsers you mainstream they never really had to do any promotion their videos are free they're getting paid per view with only fans you don't get promoted anywhere even only fans doesn't promote you the only way you can sell your subscription is by being seen on social media first got it now there is a pool there are so many people out there doing OnlyFans now, you have to stand out.

25:37And that is what Bonnie and Lily are doing. They don't necessarily love, I'm sure Bonnie didn't wake up one day and think, oh, you know what, I could just get drilled by 1 ,057 men. The thing is she's thinking, how can I get this out on social media and into, you know, newspapers and stuff to sell OnlyFans? So every time I've been in the media or newspapers, my OnlyFans are skyrocketed.

25:59Camilla: And when you said about, like, you keep your clothes on, what are you saying? So I always just pull my pants to one side. Right. And how about your boobs? Are they out or not? I've had a boob job. I've had so much surgery that I probably would have never have had if I didn't do. So you get the demands for like naked pics and things and then it escalates into porn. Is it girl on girl, boy on girl, both? I do everything. Yeah. I did start. I started OnlyFans. I was like, I'm never going to show, you know, anything other than my boobs, which I didn't even have at that point. I was just showing my heartbeat.

26:28But yeah. And then it sort of escalated again, desensitization. and the next thing you know I'm being drilled by four pirates in a movie called The Little Spurmaid. So it is desensitisation.

26:39Camilla: Well, isn't that a gangbang? Yeah, I've done gangbang content. I've done Barbie and the Cream House. That was six of us. But are you saying that, what are you defining as a gangbang? Obviously it would be more than three people. It's three sim and then anything more than that is classed as a gangbang. It's quite the education this. Not 1 ,057. But Rebecca, like you're saying now you're the most insecure porn star. I mean, how do you feel about it all? Are you comfortable with all this? Do you feel you're just now you're making so much money, you're sort of trapped? I wouldn't say trapped. Obviously, I have goals in life and I want to own a farm and I want to be able to give my kids everything that I can give them.

27:19Camilla: Rebecca, you can own a farm. You said you've earned four and a half million dollars. You need to see how much a farm costs. I was going to say, I'm also labour of taxing life out of your farms. Do we need to blame Rachel Reeves for this? The only thing is, if you have a farm, I would 100 % come to the farm. I love that. Yeah, that's my end goal. I wanted to make a pot for my children basically to say, I'm sorry that I've put you on the firing line for bullying. Have they been bullied? No. One of my children's in secondary school, and I don't know what it is. I don't want to big myself up or seem big-headed, but everybody that ever comes up to me in the streets only recognises me from TikTok or being funny.

27:55They all know what I do. but I'd say that I'm quite respected as a sex worker compared to the people that will literally do anything for the promotion. But you want to stop this at some point? Yeah, of course, yeah. When I've hit my dreams, I'll stop this. I enjoy the 90 % of the job which is the marketing and the comedy and being able to divert people to my OnlyFans but when it actually gets to my OnlyFans, that's the part of the job that I don't enjoy. What, you don't enjoy the performative sex?

28:23Camilla: No, not at all. You don't enjoy being a porn star? No, I enjoy marketing. But that depresses me a bit as a woman. You're sitting here, lovely lady, you know, a mum, and you found yourself in a situation where you're doing something that you don't enjoy. How many people don't enjoy their job? No, but you don't. It's a fair point. Again, it is purely money. It's, you know, like I say, 90 % of it with the marketing, with the TikToks, with the social media side, I absolutely love that. it's just that 15 minutes twice a month that I really struggle with but I put myself through it like everybody else does gets gets up to go to work in the morning not don't necessarily want to but I need the money you know I want to build something I know exactly what I want to build and when I've got that when I'm settled on my farm I've got my motor home I'm airbnb in my farm house out and renting out the motor home that's when I'll be like okay I can chill the children I've got everything they need I've worked to get what I need I did a job that I probably don't enjoy 10 % of.

29:21Camilla: There's a lot of people out there that despise the entirety of the job. How old are you now, Rebecca? 31. How long do you think you'll continue to do this for? My goal was about 35. All right. Let's look at some of these other recommendations in the pornography review. Strengthen regulation and enforcement. I'm sure you both agree with that in terms of how the industry is policed. Protect performers and victims. Grant performers the right to withdraw consent for published material. Mandate age verification, we know that. Consent for published material. I mean, the good thing about OnlyFans is you are in control of your own material.

29:58Camilla: Yes. Or how much are you being controlled? I always get the impression when young, attractive women are doing porn that pulling all the strings is some bloke somewhere. Well, I suppose you have to have an entire team behind you. So I employed somebody called, ironically, Dick Bosch. What? His name's Richard Bosch. so we are business partners um he doesn't control me in any way obviously I have the full upper hand I own the majority of the company that I own and he just helps with other things but there's nobody on OnlyFans that's controlling unless you get a management team in which could potentially turn into something that you don't necessarily want it to but you obviously the only way to explain OnlyFans is imagine it's like Facebook but you have to pay to be my friend yes that's how you do it so I'm in control of what goes on there obviously I understand with mainstream porn companies for example Mia Khalifa she wanted all the content removed she can't have that removed who's she she was a porn star she actually only did porn for three months and she wore worn a hijab during the porn so she became yeah she became very very well known from that however the strings were being pulled with her by the um her partner who was the owner of Bang Bros so she did three months she earned 12 000 pound which in the porn industry is not a lot at all for three months work now she sort of realized that's never what she wanted she regrets doing it and she wants all the videos taken off her bang bros she can't have that they can continue to monetize from her videos and put them anywhere they want to put them without her consent because she signed a model release form on the day now that is unfair i feel like anybody should be able to have the right to withdraw at any point.

31:46And we offer that. I offer that to anyone that I work with, we've done a video with. I always say, if at any point you don't want this out, then please let us know and we'll take it straight down. Like, yeah.

31:56Camilla: Sean, on the money side of things, when young people, yourself included, are accessing porn, are they paying for it? Is a lot of it just readily available and free? Personally, I've never paid for porn. Really? Yeah, I've personally never paid for porn. What, even the extreme stuff? No, I've never paid. you can find find that really easy oh you can find anything online and i think people can't like if i went on my phone now and we typed in something extreme i can find absolutely anything absolutely anything some kids do pay for only fans models absolutely and other people will only go free and it's interesting i went to a school and i was given the freedom to talk to these young boys about porn penis dysmorphia everything you could ever imagine that young boys need to have conversations about so some of the boys i said what do you think about only fans models and they They're like, they're disgusting.

32:42What's wrong with them? Why are they selling their bodies? And then you asked them, what do you think about porn? They said, oh, porn's fine, sir. But I said, what's the difference between a woman controlling her agency on OnlyFans versus the porn star who perhaps doesn't have the ability to control her agency? And for a lot of young boys, it started to finally click that it's a contradiction. Your issue's not necessarily with porn. Your issue's with the young girl that has agency over what she wants to do. But you're okay with someone else being able to watch it. And I think it's really interesting watching that dichotomy with people.

33:14So I've seen this very regularly as well. So many people hate OnlyFans models, but they're not angry at porn stars in the same breath. I think it's...

33:23Camilla: But also, you're talking to a perfect storm here, both of the easy availability of any kind of porn that you would like on the internet. And also this newfound sort of era of social isolation. Generation Z and Alpha are living much more different, less sociable lives than we are. I mean, people of my, I'm not a boomer, a Gen X generation who met our boyfriends at clubs and went out all the time and weren't home much of the weekend. It's completely flipped. You've now got kids staying at home, watching Netflix, not actually socially interacting with each other, not hooking up as much. therefore there are these online hookups it then plays into your popularity on OnlyFans but Sean that's also very damaging isn't it when it comes to particularly young men's introduction to women I mean we've already touched on this idea of completely unrealistic expectations once they actually do end up with a real life woman in bed completely unrealistic expectations of what that woman wants to do and how that experience might actually shape up.

34:32Camilla: But talk to me more about where young boys are really in this issue of interacting with girls their age. And I think I love some of the points you brought up. And, you know, for example, you said it's like having a Facebook where you pay to be my friend. And that's parasocial relationships where a lot of people think they have a relationship with someone, but it could just be chatbots or someone you've hired from another country to reply. So a lot of people are in false relationships with people that actually have no connection to them. It's rather than being monetized. And for a lot of young people, yeah, there's a massive sense of isolation.

35:05You think about the commodification of dating apps is also another really big issue. Young boys go on to dating apps and they're not going to be able to get dates as much as they once were. And there's a lot of other issues around that. You have society issues. A lot of young boys feel like they have a lot more to lose by going up in real life and having a conversation with a girl. There's, you know, dating apps, social media, the conversations people are having and so much more that's contributing to young boys becoming more and more isolated and becoming more and more stuck and deeply entrenched in views that are not necessarily productive for society.

35:41And you think about the rise of online influencers who perhaps don't have the best impact on young people as well. It's just further entrenching more and more hatred. And as I said before, I am not anti-porn. I'm for regulation. I'm also for education. And I think there has to be a cultural shift. I believe we should encourage people to go out into the real world and have real conversations, talk about consent, talk about what people like and what they don't like. As I said, anything you hide, it grows and it grows and it becomes worse.

36:15Camilla: Before I bring Rebecca in on that, how bad was your porn addiction at its height? I used to wake up in the morning, watch porn before I'd brush my teeth, sleep, watch porn. There were times when I think at my peak, I masturbated 22 times in one day. What? Yeah, watching porn. And I remember it reached a point where I just felt so much guilt, shame, embarrassment. I just thought the orgasm just wasn't worth it. And then that's when I realized I had a real big issue. And the more and more time I spent away from porn is the more and more I I realized, oh, this is actually a problem. And then when I was in my cohort of friends, we would do dares.

36:53We'd be like, who can last the longest to not watch porn? And then I won quite a few times and I realized, wow, there's so much more in the world. And you realize that, for example, once upon a time ago, if I had met you, I think I wouldn't be able to not sexualize you. Whereas now I can look at you as a human being. And we had a great conversation earlier. I can see your humanity. Whereas I think with porn, I failed to sometimes see women's humanity.

37:16Camilla: But how did you see the light then? What helped? I found something far bigger than the addiction I was struggling with. And I think being in a loving relationship and being able to openly have a conversation really helps. I had friends around me who were also really struggling and we were all able to be very transparent with one another. But I also realised most importantly, when I started having more hobbies, when I was going out into the real world and having those real conversations, I was like, wait, why do I need to watch this? And quite often they say at the root of addiction is a lack of connection.

37:49And I think I really wasn't connected to the real world. I wasn't connected to the people around me. It made a massive, massive, profound difference for me.

37:57Camilla: Did you have therapy and things or join a group or anything like that? I did. I went to therapy for it. And I remember when I went to therapy, I felt a bit out of place. I was like, whoa, these people have far worse issues than me. But that's quite arrogant for me to think. I realise all we're all in the same boat. We're just swimming in different streams in some ways. But yeah, I did go to therapy. Therapy helped not as much as I thought, but I had to have some sort of personal motivation and personal conviction. And a lot of the damage that I had caused as a result of porn, I'm accountable for my own actions.

38:27I'm not going to just blame addiction, but it definitely had a massive impact on the people around me.

38:32Camilla: What damage did you cause? Well, cheating, lying, you know, not seeing women's humanity necessarily, just seeing sex as more so the end goal, the destination addiction. it's something people don't talk about so when if sex is is the pinnacle of the mountain as a lot of young men have that destination addiction this is where they want to be they get it boom i'm out now and that's it that's where it is done and a lot of women that i've spoken with and a lot of individuals i know say you you know the minute you give sex up you don't know if a guy wants to stick around anymore and it's one of the really big issues that we have in dating that people are not willing to stick around for the lows and the highs that come with it and it's why I say relationships are boring they're supposed to sometimes get boring you're not supposed to go out and have a high 24 7 and the illusion of social media the illusion of porn has created that as well it's been a massive issue I heard a phrase once about adultery and somebody said no affair will ever be more interesting than any marriage and I actually thought that was such a good quote because it was trying to reflect the ups and downs and complexities of being in a long-term relationship and where that takes you versus sort of short-term gratification.

39:46And that is something which is massive. Instant gratification, delayed gratification. Instant gratification, I can go on my phone, masturbate to a video of porn and I reach this high. Delayed gratification is, and again, remember I said I'm not anti-porn. I go out to the shop, I've got to leave my house, I've got to go buy a magazine, look at it, it's a little bit raunchy, but I've got to spend money to take it back home and I decide what I want to do if I might put it away and cool that's it but that's delayed it's the delaying of things that really help and we're living in a comfort crisis right the same way with food I can go on uber and order free food or not free I wish it was free I could order food delivery order food the phone has become just as easily available to access porn to access extreme material and the easier and easier it becomes to access it's going to create more issues.

40:35Deepfake is a massive issue already.

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41:30Camilla: Let's talk about deepfake because that also features in the review. Criminalise intimate image abuse, make non-consensual image creation and sharing, including deepfakes, explicitly illegal. I mean, it's unbelievable, Rebecca, that people can deep fake you and you can't do anything about it. And also we spoke earlier, Sean, about revenge porn, which is just horrifying. And again, it applies to children because they will send stuff. Absolutely. I have been staggered by the tales I've heard of what secondary school girls particularly are sending boys. yeah now Rebecca I'm obviously not going to hold you solely responsible for that but one of the arguments could be unfortunately this is your fault because you have commodified what it is to be a woman and what it is to be a sexual woman and therefore your average 13 or 14 year old trying to impress the boy in class might send him for instance tit pics yeah yeah so obviously well are you saying that's probably that am I being too naive more than that yeah girls will send young boys a lot more and boys are pressuring a lot of young girls and it's all as you said it's a way of status it's a way naive they're sending vaginal pics probably well it could be whole body pics it could be all sorts can you appreciate that argument rebecca but i'm not doing that thing no no i do i do appreciate it in fact it wasn't that long ago i went on to a podcast and i stated how much i regret having the surgery that i've had because obviously i felt pressured into it but now i feel like um obviously my children are going to feel like they have to look a certain way at some point as well the only issue I have with that statement is my job isn't me like and I know it's going to be hard for everybody to accept that because that's all they see of me on social media but just like anybody else their job doesn't you know it doesn't define who they are like yeah fair enough I make sexual content but that is 10 % of who I am maybe 5 % of who I am I donate to charity you know I've got two children I'm a housewife as well I'm doing everything else that a normal person would do.

43:36Are you married now Rebecca? No I'm not married I'm single but you know I'm looking after the kids and picking them up from school doing all the cleaning. Like 95 % of my life is just as normal as everybody else is and obviously because I'm only glamorising that 5 % which is my job people are automatically saying oh I'm just a sexual object, I've got no talent or anything like that and I understand that's what they're going to see but it's just about opening your mind a little bit more every single person that does explicit content is a person as well like we all have sex and we all have to find a way to make money especially during like a cost of living crisis and things like that so maybe I can't kind of hold

44:18Camilla: that at your door and I think that's fair but many many women have expressed grave concerns to me about Bonnie Blue and Lily Phillips because there seems to be something completely immoral about it there definitely there definitely is again it's all promotion like I don't believe for a second that Lily or Bonnie wanted or you know they were excited to do this all they wanted to do is get the promotion so that they could make the newspapers and also you know you could be on TikTok talking about it and people would subscribe I say a massive part of this is the media unfortunately like the less the less we talk about these people the less airtime they get the less money they make that might be a point Sean I do think it is important to reiterate I think Rebecca's not at fault for the entirety of everything that's happened that would be unfair right like you don't blame someone who's addicted to food or addicted to sugar you blame the industry that has given the ease and the accessibility of it well hang on no you do blame the person if they are over-reading and not exercising self-control.

45:27But I don't think it's as black and white as that. I think the more that we've learned to understand the brain and the more we've understood that everything in the system that we live in can be commodified. And if it can be commodified, it can be bought and it can be sold. I agree that many degrees as it is immoral. I believe what Lily Phillips and Bonnie Blue are doing is doing, what they're doing is destructive inherently to society. And they're thinking about their short-term gains. They're thinking about this is what I get but I've watched quite a lot of podcasts with them on it and I find them quite fascinating actually as individuals and they would swear to you that they absolutely enjoy what they do and I think that can be really hard for some people to acknowledge.

46:05Camilla: I know but then Phillips is in tears after one of the gang bangs and as a woman women can see women and women can understand if women are happy or not or if women are saying that they're happy. I looked at it as a woman, as a mother and as a journalist and didn't think that Phillips was happy after that happened. in that particular video. Did you agree, Rebecca? I would agree. So she makes the claim that she wasn't happy because she couldn't pleasure all the guys. I would agree that it's probably a bit of a bizarre reason. And some people would say she has a little self-esteem to feel like she needs to do that.

46:36But the problem is, how do you tell somebody to stop doing something if you're being financially remunerated for it?

46:41Camilla: Should we just look at how much they've earned, actually? Blue explained how she pulled in around$2.1 million a month on OnlyFans before she was banned. And then Philips says she's earned around 2 million. She's earned over 10K in her first month on the site alone. I mean, again, it's kind of like, well, I'm making money, therefore it's fine. Which, again, I don't think is a brilliant message to send to our young people. Anything is fine if you're making enough dosh. Well, and I would agree it's not the right message, but you look at what the media does. You think about rappers, and I have really big issues with rappers as well.

47:20the materialism, the glorification of drugs, the glorification of women, the hoarding of resources. We've taught young boys that that's what you should aspire to and that's what you should be like.

47:30Camilla: The Andrew Tate effect, really. You know, gold watches, wads of money, masculine themes, and women are just disposable and dispensable. Well, it's not only that, but it's also this kind of Miami effect. You know, some people go out into the world and they think that all the women are just going to be like all the girls in Miami. drawn to your fat cash, to the gold you've got onto you and to the money that you have. And when you go out into the real world, once again, you realise not as many women are as picky, as high as you think. Not many people care about the money that you earn. Some people just want to be happy.

48:04Camilla: I know, but then you do blame some of the women that are quite happily sort of slap dropping in these music videos to sort of strangely aggressive, misogynistic themes and go, well, what the hell are you perpetuating this for? But the thing is, that's the commodification again of what we class as talent. The problem isn't just the women. The problem is the record labels that encourage this. And I can draw on several rappers who, I've gone on music videos and I get sick and tired of seeing half-naked women. I actually enjoy seeing a video where I'm focusing on your talent as an artist, not the women you're putting on the videos.

48:37But again, when you've got people that can modify it, you can't blame just the entertainer.

48:42Camilla: Sean, you can't watch Britain's Got Talent or something similar without seeing half-naked women. But you also can't watch Britain's Got Talent without a sub story because we fall in love with stories. All right, let's have some final concluding thoughts. We have the legislation, we have the recommendations that have been made in that independent pornography review. But you two have both been at the sharp end of this. Let's put it that way. When it comes to young people, this all comes down to education, doesn't it, Sean? Education generally can change people's lives, right? You can't control what people do, but you can give them as much information as you can and say, look, here's the pros, here's the cons.

49:16And I'm really thankful and lucky to be able to go to schools, deliver assemblies, do talks, facilitate very difficult conversations. That's an honor and a privilege. But that honor and privilege came out of my own suffering. And, you know, if you can repurpose your suffering and turn it into purpose, it has a profound effect. But we do need far more education and we have to see a cultural shift. The culture that we're living in in Britain, we hide everything. We are so scared to have certain conversations just in case we offend, just in case it's controversial. Having the opportunity to meet Rebecca has been a pleasure.

49:50Having the opportunity to have a conversation with you is just the beginning of it. But still, the checks that have come in and verification and so much more, it's a great start. But we need education. We have to act as if it's a real problem because it is a real problem.

50:06Camilla: And Rebecca, I never asked you at the beginning, do you have boys or girls? Two girls. Two girls. So I'm sure you've been asked this before. If they turn around and said, mummy, I want to get into the porn industry, what would you say? Obviously, I'd be able to give them an insight of what it's actually like and the pros and cons. You know, I want my children to be happy if they obviously were of age with having all the information that they have that I can give them. If they still decide that they want to go ahead and do it, knowing that, you know, they might never get another job again, knowing that they could only make£150 a month, then I'll support them because I'll support my children, well, not as children doing OnlyFans obviously, but adults.

50:46I'll support them with whatever makes them happy. However, the reason I'm doing this is so that they have their own little property portfolio and hopefully in a world where everybody seems to be doing OnlyFans, my children won't actually need to.

51:02Camilla: Is that something conscious in your thinking, that you want those two girls to avoid having to do the things you've had to do to get ahead? Yeah, so I think ever since I had my first child, I was only 17. The only thing that I really felt at that point was guilt. I was like, I can't afford to look after you. And I feel like I'm trying to pay them back. I feel like I shouldn't have brought them into this world to just struggle their entire life like I did. So I feel like this, for me, is just a journey of making sure that when something happens to me or just when they turn 18, they're going to be comfortable I feel like I owe them that to them I don't know why it is that I think like that but I just want to know that they're never going to because I was homeless at one point like and I want to know that that's never going to happen to them that's why I bought the houses in cash like just so they never have mortgage troubles or anything like that but you you probably wouldn't have ended up doing this if you weren't a mum I would probably be dead Like I would have probably gone on a massive drug, alcohol binge if I didn't have children.

52:03So no, I probably wouldn't be doing this. Because this is so interesting because people would look at this and make judgments on you.

52:10Camilla: And you're actually a very good mother. You're trying to create a different kind of life for your daughters, which is hugely admirable. And when it comes to what they're taught in school with regard to the boys, their peers, and what they're watching and what they're thinking and whether they get into a situation like Sean's or not. How do you want the girls to be educated on these sorts of issues? I think, obviously, sex education is so important from a very, very, very young age. I know a lot of people would disagree with that, but I was sexually abused as a child and I feel like if I didn't think all the sex is naughty, I'm not allowed to talk by, then I could have been saved.

52:46So I've always been quite open with my children about sex education. I wouldn't want them accessing porn ever to be honest because it's not real I know for a fact that I go into that set and I hate it but I'm acting like I'm having a great time and because I've got that sort of insight I know that I wouldn't want my children to access porn or become dependent on porn when it comes to you know having some sort of dopamine release but at the same time I know that they're gonna obviously explore that but I think that these regulations that are being put in place by Ofcom should have been put in place many many years ago and the same for social media as well I think that anybody that has a social media account should have to upload some UK official ID because you know cyberbullying is still a massive thing and we'd be able to trace that back to anybody like suicide in teenagers is so high because of cyberbullying I think the the internet is just so unrestricted at the moment and we should have done a lot more a long time ago so as much as I know that there's going to be a dip in my revenue as much as I know you know the pawns probably going to face a very detrimental impact with this regulations I'm happy to take that knowing that under 18s are not watching what I'm creating.

54:03Camilla: What a fascinating chat. Sean, Rebecca thank you so much for being so candid and I think the conclusion is that we should be talking more about sex and we have for almost an hour. Thank you very much for joining me on the Dating Tea. Thank you.

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