Inside Fergie's alleged 'friends with benefits affair' with rapper P Diddy

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:11Camilla: More explosive claims from royal biographer Andrew Lowney, including that Sarah Ferguson had a friends with benefits arrangement with the rapper P. Diddy. Lowney's updated book also features shocking allegations about the former Prince Andrew's behaviour towards women and how he's now spending his days at Marsh Farm playing Call of Duty. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy. And me, Tim Stanley.

1:47Camilla: Andrew Lowney is back in the Daily Tea studio with an update to your best-selling book about the Yorks entitled The Rise and Fall of the House of York. Now, Andrew, come on. I do look at this top-line story with a degree of scepticism. You are suggesting that Sarah Ferguson, a.k.a. Fergie, also known as Tim Stanley's favourite royal, had an affair with P. Diddy, also known as Puff Daddy, also known as Sean Combs, I think it's pronounced. What? Well, that's what I've been told. And if you remember, there was a lot of scepticism about a lot of things I said back in August when the hardback came out.

2:30And they've all been proved to be true with the Epstein revelations. I mean, I think we've taken out two lines out of the book, out of 140 ,000 words. This was very heavily legal, as you can imagine. I'm putting my reputation on the line with this. Very, very well sourced. And it's very interesting that in the response that Sarah Ferguson's PR team put out, they claim to have only, that she only met him twice. Well, we have more than two pictures of them at different events. One of the things I did get wrong is I suggested she had met him in 2002. In fact, there are pictures of them together at Diddy's birthday in 1998.

3:05She said that this is just one of many unfounded allegations. It's the first time that she's actually mentioned any unfounded allegations. She's never itemised them. I'm very happy to see her in court and go through them all.

3:16Camilla: Hang on, let me just say that a source close to Ferguson said this about the new claims. Quotes, this is absolute fabricated nonsense, blatantly untrue, and yet another false allegation from him brackets Lowney. They're saying you're just making this stuff up. Yeah, but I mean, there's a playbook here. I mean, this is what she's done all the way through. I mean, if you remember, she claimed that she'd broken her contact with Epstein in the spring of 2011. And one of the things I found for the paperback is that she was still saying in his vats in 2013, 2014. Let's just explain, because some people won't know who Diddy is.

3:55This is a rapper who is currently doing time in America for transportation for prostitution. When you say he met Sarah Ferguson, late 90s? Well, there's certainly a picture of them. The New York Daily News has a picture of them at his birthday in 1998. How old would he have been? How old would she have been? Well, he's 28. She's, at that point, she was born in 1959. So you can do your maths. No, we can't.

4:19Camilla: So she's sort of 40-ish. That's not a massive gap. And so how would these two have met? Well, I was told it was at a party of Ghislaine Maxwell, but it's now, the time frame is going back earlier, sometime into the 90s, and I don't know how they met. Right. Was the attraction principally Diddy to Fergie? He was interested in meeting a royal. Yes, he's very keen to get close to the royals. But he's seen as a pretty, as a bad boy. I mean, his record label is called Bad Boy. But we literally called her. Can I also clarify? Hang on. This is about prostitution. He isn't the same as Epstein. He's not being accused of paedophilia.

5:04No, but I think, as I said, the problem is that she was taking her daughters, who were at that stage teenagers, to, for example, parties. So Beatrice was at the launch of The Fragrance. He set up a supposedly based on Sarah Ferguson. Eugenie was at a party in 2006 on a yacht. He had these very wild yacht parties. And there's a whole series of people. I mean, she took the children when they were even younger to meet Peter Nygaard, again, someone who is now serving time in prison for sex abuse.

5:35Camilla: I know, but she might not have known at the time what their proclivities were. You're claiming here that P. Diddy once stayed with her at a seven-star hotel costing 50 grand a night. I didn't know there were such things as seven stars. They only went as far as five. I thought they went to six, possibly. Well, you haven't been to Dubai. No. Well, I have been, but I just haven't stayed in a seven-star hotel. You also claim that Diddy was obsessed with the royal family and bragged about, quote, slamming Sarah during encounters that started in 2004 and once said he, quote, could not wait until Fergie's daughters came of age.

6:11Camilla: This is really quite salacious, isn't it? Well, it's what I was told by the member of staff there who worked for him. You know, this is a biography, a joint biography of a married couple. And it seems to me that this is relevant if you're going to tell the story warts and all. But have you double sourced all this? Yes, as you can imagine, the lawyers kind of had a heart attack when they saw this. So everything has to be has to be double sourced. My favourite detail is that Diddy apparently launched his own perfume, Unforgivable, which he claimed was inspired by Sarah and how she liked a man to smell.

6:44Does it smell of money? Well, I think there is an element of that story. I haven't been able to stand that element up entirely but I think that is part of the attraction.

6:53Camilla: Why didn't you put this in the original book? Because I only discovered it after the book was published. Did people come to you with their own tales then once the book was published and you got some publicity for it? Yes, I've got about 100 ,000 words of new material from I would say dozens of people, everyone from former members of staff to school friends to people who worked in charities to protection officers, equerries, huge number of people, and many of them now prepared to go on the record. I think that's what's really interesting is people who were nervous before are now very openly being quoted in this book.

7:24Camilla: But aren't you just kind of engaging in kicking them while they're down? Because, you know, reputationally, they don't really have a leg left to stand on. And financially, they just can't afford to sue you. I'm only trying to create some balance in all this because you're coming out with some really, what they claim, a completely false allegation. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm very happy to say two to respond to them. And they're easy targets, aren't they? The Yorks right now. Well, they're not short of money. I think, you know, who's paying their PR people, who's paying for the accommodation, what's happened to the£4 million from the sale of the Belgravia flats.

7:56So, I mean, you know, Andrew in the book boasts about how he's actually made quite a bit of money and he's actually fined financially. I've never bought the argument that they haven't got much money. They've been scrambling away money from all sorts of deals. And I talk about this in the book. I mean, this is one paragraph in 10 ,000 words. Most of the book is focused on how Andrew continued to abuse his position as a trade envoy, some of his very predatory sexual behaviour.

8:22Camilla: OK, I mean, that's the subject right now of a police investigation with regard to him having alleged to have been behaving with misconduct in public office. So let's just be careful with that. This is a biography that I was bringing up to date in the light of new material I was getting. But aren't you just engaging in a little bit of a feeding frenzy? Again, I'm only putting the alternative narrative, which is, you know, from their camp or I think wider royal circles. They're like, wow, you know, Lowney's taken the gloves off here. There's quite a lot of invective involved. He's going really, really far in trying to completely trash what's left of their reputation.

8:58Camilla: What's in it for you? Well, you've got books to sell. they're vehemently delaying a lot of these claims. Aren't you just sort of like feasting on their corpses in a way? Well, I don't think it's invective. You'll see that everything is sourced. It's done in a pretty matter-of-fact style. And the fact is that I actually approached them to see if they would cooperate with the book. Well, they're not going to do that now. No, no, when I first started. So I started on the basis I wanted to be as fair and balanced as possible to give them an opportunity to shape the narrative. And quite apart from not cooperating, they told people not to talk to me.

9:31So I've been to go backwards to be as fair as I can to them. And I do have some good stuff. I have a girlfriend quoting there in the new edition talking about what a great person Andrew is. So there's certainly no agenda here and there's certainly just trying to tell the story of their lives. Something else that's changed since the book first came out is the royals have cut them loose. The establishment has given up on protecting them. So if more stuff does come out, I think that could be logical because they're no longer protected by the magic circle.

10:03Camilla: There is an interesting development on that in that they have announced formally from Buckingham Palace Princess Eugenie being pregnant with her third child. And that's significant because I think they thought that they might be completely frozen out. They were worried about how to make that announcement. She had held on to the news for quite a long time because they didn't want to overshadow the king in America. But Charles was clear when the title was taken away. This doesn't affect the daughters. And in fact, they continue to be invited to the all-important Christmas party. I just think it's interesting with an official announcement of her pregnancy.

10:34Yes.

10:34Camilla: Rather than it going on Instagram or something. That is significant in a way. Well, they are princesses of the blood. Don't forget that. Indeed, blood princesses. Yes, we're getting slightly mixed messages because, you know, at one point they're going to ask at the next point they're not going to ask at invitations. You know, are they going to be a bit sounder this year? Oh, Easter. Yes, they weren't at the church at Easter, wasn't it? So it is odd. I mean, I agree. It does suggest a protective arm around them by the king, not necessarily by all of them. But all I can do is report as a biographer on what I find.

11:04Camilla: OK. I mean, you say there are the odd nice story about Andrew. Most of these that we have picked out from the serialisation... We've picked out the worst ones. They're not great, are they? For instance, Andrew kicked his dog in the head one weekend, leaving it whimpering after it snatched a sausage roll out of a guest's hand. When the guest said how disgusting that was, he said, excuse my language, piss off. But Prince Philip comes out of this well. Right. He apparently went up to the guest later in the evening and said, what you said to my son was absolutely right. Andrew needs a good scolding from time to time.

11:36Yeah, well, I'm sorry you haven't had the full book. I assumed you'd had the full book to look at rather than sensational serial.

11:41Camilla: Well, no, we've looked at the full... No, you say a sensational serial, you sell the serialisation rights to a journalist, you know what it's like. What the journalist will do is look through the new chapter and go, right, what's the most sensational things that Andrew Lowney's reporting? Oh, it's that she had it off with P. Diddy. Oh, it's that Andrew's kicking dogs in the head. I mean, of course they're going to do that. They're not going to headline a serialisation with, oh, one girlfriend thought Andrew was quite nice. Well, I'm just saying that there is balance in this. The thing I think very interesting about the dog story is that Prince Philip, who was normally the sort of master of the household and normally, I would have said, pretty tough with his children, doesn't seem to have disciplined him at the shooting event itself.

12:23He seems to have only been pleased that the guest reprimanded Andrew and came up to him at dinner that night. And that, I thought, is quite revealing. It shows how Andrew kind of got away with this with no pressure being put on him from his parents. And it needed an outsider to tell him what was right.

12:39Camilla: Can you do the leather glove story, please, Tim? Oh, it's too horrible. OK, there's a story involving a leather glove on a submarine, which I'd rather you explain. I love how you dodged that bullet. Well, it's a story from a submariner that Andrew was on board the sub on a visit and he was being pretty obnoxious to everyone. Of course, submarines are very democratic. Andrew very much believes in the whole status and things. And they got their revenge by depositing something from the bathroom in his nice kid leather flying gloves. Right. OK. Okay, we also have you reporting that Andrew had a particular chatter line that he used when dancing, though not sweating, because he doesn't sweat, but he can dance.

13:27Camilla: And it's, what's it like to have a royal cock rub up your leg? Yes, that came from a Yorkshire landowner I talked to. Who just stored that in his top pocket, just in case Larry came knocking. No, well, again, these things are sort of often volunteered. Actually, it's someone I knew under a different circumstance who mentioned it when I was talking to him. He also had stories of Andrew going to 18th birthday parties and basically grind himself into girls. I mean, he denies any sexual misconduct. OK, you talk about behaviour towards a BA female member of crew. One put her hand out to meet him and he turned around and rubbed his groin in her back.

14:07Camilla: On another occasion on a flight, he complained the water was too cold. I quite like a cold glass of water on a flight, Tim. You like it with several valet a minute. You're not a great flyer. In front of the stewardess, he took the bottle and shoved it down his trousers and said, sorry, this will warm it up. I mean, this could just be the brag artery of a sort of, well, of a naval man, you know, used to being with blokes on a ship, drinking rum. I make no judgments in the book. You know, this is just revealing his character's behaviour. There's a series of anecdotes from people who encountered him, most of whom have gone on the record with their names.

14:45And that's very rare for a royal book. Most of them have anonymous sources.

15:12That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search X-E-R-O for your free trial. Conditions apply. Hi, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. Bottomless apps for$9.99 are back at Buffalo Wild Wings. So you can mix and match favorites like modsticks, fried pickles, onion rings, hatched queso, and chips and salsa. It's perfect for a girls' night, a double date, or just a full-on yapping session. order your apps and keep them coming while you spiral on the same gossip from every possible angle so grab your besties or your frenemies and head to buffalo wild wings to get bottomless apps for 9.99 while you still can amazon health ai presents painful thoughts i um i can't stop scratching my downtown yeah but i'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist i'm here to talk about my downtown.

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16:32We've discussed their finances with you before, And you mentioned it today that you think they've got money squirreled away. If this is the case, then why does Sarah Ferguson so often struggle to pay her bills? You have examples in the book of staff having to pay for things on their own credit cards, of her using her daughter Beatrice's credit card, and even, wonderful detail, paying for a psychic with cigarettes. Well, I mean, this was all delineated again in the hardback. I mean, that she wasn't paying even the local sort of news agent and butcher and was being cut off. Even when she has money, you know, she often, you know, when she stays in a hotel, she doesn't feel that she needs to pay the bills.

17:13Right. It's back to the sense of entitlement. So it's not poor management. It's this, I should take this. Why bother? Okay. These are little people. It's the Leona Helmsley line. Right. So I think that's what's extraordinary. And, you know, the loyalty that the staff show her given these circumstances. I mean, what she also does is she sues staff who came after her to try and get the money. I mean, she threatened Johnny Sullivan when he was trying to get beer paid. And the woman I talked to, who was a long-term PA, went to Mishcon Rea to try and get the money that she was entitled to. And instead of just paying her, she paid lawyers money to come after the assistant.

17:51Camilla: Let's talk about Andrew and Fergie's life now. Where is Fergie? I have no idea. Well, she's meant to be in some Alpine retreat. Yeah, I just don't know, so I'm not saying. Tim, I know you follow her movements very closely. Do you know where she is? No, no, I've been going out of the streets at night and calling her name, but she hasn't come running yet. Shame. Don't let her know you might have a spare room. You could be in trouble, right? You're saying that Andrew now, so he is up in Sandringham, we know where he is. Has he moved into the house he's meant to be in yet or is he in the halfway house?

18:24No, I think he's in Morsh Farm, yeah.

18:25Camilla: OK. He's complaining about it, doesn't like it. Again, this sounds a bit unlikely, Andrew. So tell us how on earth you know this. You say that he now spends his time playing video games, hour after hour playing Call of Duty. Now, Tim, it's not something that I think you do, is play Call of Duty on my game. I've never played Call of Duty, no. But what else? OK, what else is the poor man supposed to do? But it's extraordinary. If he goes out, he's attacked or he's photographed looking like an idiot. So there's a long history. This is duty. This is something that my 15-year-old son used to play. Well, this is, I'm afraid, his level.

19:01I mean, he would take girls on date nights out to see Sir Rambo. I mean, this comes from...

19:06Camilla: To be fair, there's nothing wrong with that. Some call hell, others call home. This comes from a source that I've used in the hardback as well. It's all proved to be accurate who goes on his stuff. So, yeah, I think it's pretty reliable, all this stuff. Oh, my Lord. OK. I think other people have talked about him spending a lot of time watching videos, watching planes land. There's a sort of simulation programs you can watch to land planes. So I'm not the only one who said this. It's like that part of the Krypton factor. Remember, he is kind of, as you say, under house arrest and he can't really go out.

19:40And he's always been a bit of a couch potato. And this is how he's spending his time. And he was approached by someone in a balaclava recently when he went out. So there have been threats to his person.

19:49Camilla: All right. Proceedings are active. Let's go carefully. But yes, I mean, if you're going to be uncharitable, you could say this is it's the fault of people like you writing these stories, reporters like me writing these stories, that now Andrew has become this kind of hate figure that people are going after in his private time in Norfolk. Well, he's a hate figure because of the way he's behaved. You know, I mean, our job as journalists and writers is to tell the truth, not to sugarcoat the royal family and treat them any differently to anyone else. He misses his grandchildren. I mean, he used to see a lot of his daughters, Beatrice and Eugenie, who have between them now four children, one stepchild and another child on the way.

20:28Camilla: He's now not seeing them as much. He's quite isolated up in Sandringham on the estate there. Should we start to feel sorry for him a little bit? I mean, he's feeling alienated. I think we've done a story about him seeking help for his mental health. He's in a very, very dark place, regardless of the allegations you make against him. Well, the information I'm getting from this member of staff is he's actually quite cocky. He doesn't think he will be charged. He's obsessing about minor detail. So this isn't the picture that has been presented by the spin machine. But then you also quote a royal aide who says he feels a profound alienation and he needs to find out what he can do next with his life.

21:08Camilla: He needs new routines and networks. You quote him saying, perhaps I'll end up doing it somewhere else. Money isn't an issue because I've made some shrewd business deals over the years that afford me a good lifestyle. Well, I mean, I think he will eventually, like King Juan Carlos of Spain, end up in Dubai or somewhere like that. All right, but is he alienated or cocky? Well, you can vacillate between the two. I mean, clearly we saw that picture of him coming back from the questioning by the police, and he clearly looks like a hunted animal. But at other times, you know, he can be very cocky and thinks he's absolutely fine.

21:40and I think it will be hard to bring charges because he will say he's not going to get a fair trial. He will want to call his brother to give evidence. He may well say, why am I being singled out when everyone knew about my behaviour?

21:52Camilla: Would he call his brother to give evidence? If we believe what we do believe, which is the king is helping to subsidise his low-radar existence, why on earth would he then put the king in such a difficult situation to appear in court? That's not going to happen, is it? I don't think there's any love lost between the two brothers. I mean, it's exactly what happened with the Paul Burrell case. That was shut down because Burrell was threatening to reveal some embarrassing secrets. And the Queen remembered at the last minute that she had given permission to Burrell to take all this stuff. So the Burrell family do not want this case to go ahead.

22:29I mean, it will be too embarrassing. so they will have to find a way to either he disappears or as I say charges aren't leveled because he's not getting a fair trial they'll say he wasn't a British subject they won't find maybe enough people to come forward to give evidence who knows but this is his feeling that he's not going to be charged and he doesn't need to worry when Charles went to Washington DC there were calls from families of victims of Epstein to say please meet with us He didn't do that and the success of his tour has somewhat eclipsed that story. But what damage do you think long-term Andrew is doing to his brother's reputation?

23:09Well, I think when the king is pretty ruthless and tough with his brother, his popularity ratings go up. I mean, particularly the end of October when he basically stepped in and said, you know, he's now going to lose his titles when he was basically kicked out of Royal Lodge a few months ago. I think there was a lot of respect for the king. The problem is when the king kind of jithers and he can't decide what to do. And it may be a difficult dilemma because there may be all sorts of problems. Is he better kept Andrew kept inside the tent or outside? Well, is there a lingering question over what did Charles know and why didn't he act sooner, which is why he doesn't want this to wind up in court?

23:47Absolutely. And I mean, that's the question everyone's asking when he's going out on royal duties. What did you know and when? And that is the question I think he does need to answer. because, you know, the fact is this story has been reported in the press for 15 years. We've had some very embarrassing episodes, Sarah taking money for access to Andrew in 2010, the 2022 High Court case of Selman Turk with£1.3 million given to the York family they can't explain. You know, and so why wasn't anything done at that stage? Even when my book came out last August, you know, there was a bit of a tension, but nothing actually happened.

24:21And it's only really because of the Epstein releases and the drip-drip feed of really concrete information, emails being forwarded literally within minutes of being sent. And one of the things I reveal is another of the donors was a man called David Tang, who paid off about£250 ,000 of Sarah Ferguson's debts and then was introduced to business on these taxpayer-funded trips. And the big question I'm asking is why will the government not release details of who was on these trips paid for by the taxpayer? If there's nothing to worry about, there's nothing to hide. They have nothing to worry about.

24:55The government said that they would do so. They're still not there. I'm still asking questions, FOIs, and being fobbed off with health and safety and national security and all sorts of excuses. Members of the House of Lords are putting in a whole series of very sensible questions which are not being answered. So one has to wonder whether the government are taking this really seriously or kicking it into the long grass and hope the problem will go away.

25:18Camilla: The government's got a few serious problems on its hands right now, including the future of the Prime Minister. Second of all, when you say about the royals not acting particularly in the case of the court case you mentioned from the early 2020s, well, they were dealing with a series of catastrophic events. Megxit, Prince Philip's death, the Queen's death, cancer in both the King and the Princess of Wales. I mean, they've had a pretty difficult decade so far. Well, I would have thought if you had a court case running with 1.3 million paid to your brother, which you can't account for, that is something you should be looking into, however busy you might be.

25:54Camilla: I know, but you have got other probably more pressing priorities with a brother that's been marred in controversy, as you say, since, frankly, the noughties. You said you had some nice stories to tell about Andrew. Go on. Let's hear them. Well, I mean, there's a girlfriend that he had called Bridget Mathie, who I mentioned in the hardback and has now come forward and gone on the record, who was 10 years older than him. It was a relationship when he was in his early 20s. And she has stories of him going off and making fudge with him and taking it back to the royal family. So isn't that quite a nice heartwarming story?

26:27Wow. Is that a side of Andrew that suggests he could have gone a different way? Yeah, I think what's so tragic is he's brought, I mean, all the family have brought this on themselves. And there were so many moments. He came back from the Falklands as a hero. He was very popular at the time of his wedding. And the trade envoy job wasn't a bad idea. He started off quite well. And I think there are stories I tell of him being effective and pretty dedicated to the job. So, you know, some people had good experiences. I think the problem is his lack of proper sort of control of him. There was structure and discipline in the Navy, which he didn't get later.

27:03And he wasn't properly supervised. We had the Foreign Office and the Department of Business and Trade. sort of tasking him. And in the end, they weren't tasking him and he was kind of going where he wanted to go. But it really, you know, is one of the reasons why we do need all sorts of things like a register of royal gifts, a proper one, and a royal register of business interests. I mean, you know, people could then say, if, for example, Beatrice and Eugenie, who are not working royals, but clearly use their royal status, particularly in the Middle East, to promote their own business activities, if they were required to declare those activities like any member of parliament is, then I think it would create a bit more trust and confidence.

27:40Camilla: OK, well the same would therefore apply to Harry and Meghan. I think there should be a royal register and it was debated by the House of Commons 20 years ago and then was kind of knocked on the head. And that's the problem. So many of these things... But you should be as concerned, surely, they're still in the line of succession, you should be as concerned about Harry and Meghan's business interests and how they've conducted themselves on recent charitable tours... I'm saying it should be all the royals. Because they're in exactly the same boat as Beatrice and usually, aren't they? I'm not singling out the York family.

28:08It should be for all the royals. I mean, the focus of my research is on the Yorks, and that's the one thing I can talk about.

28:15Camilla: But maybe you should... I mean, what's your next book, Andrew? Maybe you should have a look at the Sussexes. Well, there are plenty of people writing about the Sussexes. I mean, I like to work with documents. This is the first book I've done, which is based on interviews and which is a piece of, as you say, perhaps more journalism than biography. I like to get back to looking at documents. That's where I feel happiest. So do you know what you're going to write next? I have some ideas, but I want to do a bit more research. Okay. Please don't write about them.

29:05Do right by yourself and your business and search X-E-R-O for your free trial. Conditions apply. Hi, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. Bottomless apps for$9.99 are back at Buffalo Wild Wings, so you can mix and match favorites like modsticks, fried pickles, onion rings, hatched queso, and chips and salsa. It's perfect for a girls' night, a double date, or just a full-on yapping session. Order your apps and keep them coming while you spiral on the same gossip from every possible angle. So grab your besties or your frenemies and head to Buffalo Wild Wings to get bottomless apps for$9.99 while you still can.

30:02Camilla: PM.