Inside the latest Farage ‘witch hunt’

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1:02nigel farage is already under investigation for accepting five million pounds from a crypto billionaire but now new revelations about his relationship with convicted criminal George Cottrell. Is the reform leader really a rotter or is this a witch hunt by the establishment? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy. And me, Tim Stanley.

1:31Dr Tim Stanley, an essay question for you. In the 1996 smash hit by David Baddiel and Frank Skinner, they referred to it coming home. Define it. Yes, it would be the football. What specifically about the football? Well, I suppose the trophy. Yes, what trophy are they playing for right now? It's the World Cup, I'm not a complete fool. I know you're not a complete fool, but I also know you're not plugged into the football right now. So did you stay up last night? I watched Blade Runner, went to bed and had one of the best night's sleep of my life. Well, I categorically didn't sleep well. I did a little power nap between 10.30 and 1.30.

2:11My husband ploughed through. I said, just wake me up when this thing kicks off. He did so. It was probably 101 to 2 minutes of the most agonising football I think I've ever watched. Do you know why? I find all football agonising. I know, but this was particularly difficult because do you know what happened? I know we won 3-2. Yes, against? Mexico. Mexico. Yes, we were playing at home in an Aztec stadium. Hello. Well, I had an image of a ball court, one of the old Aztec ball courts, but I don't think it was quite like that. All right, good. And did you know that the Mexicans had kept the England team up outside their hotel the night before by playing vizuvelas and drums?

2:52Oh, wonderful, by playing La Cucharacha music. Basically, yes. So I think somebody said Declan Rice, who's a very key pair for us, had about 45 minutes sleep. Right, so there was a mariachi band out the window. Indeed. That's very clever. I like that. Do you know why the last 11 minutes, there was 11 minutes of time added on after 90 minutes. Do you know why that was so agonising? Because it was an extra 11 minutes of football. But it was particularly difficult for us. Right. How many people normally play in a football team? Oh, no. I don't know. OK. I don't know. How many beings make five? Yeah, it's normally 11, but we were down to 10 men.

3:26Right. So consequently, that makes it hard, right? Because the opposition have got an extra player. So we were having to defend our 3-2 lead for what was an excruciating period of time. And we did so. And our goalkeeper, whose name is? David Seaman. Jordan Pickford. Yes. Really? There's someone called Jordan Pickford in 2026? Yes. It's like a name from the 1930s. Mr Pickford. I know. Don't forget to catch the ball, Mr Pickford. Well, Mr Pickford did a good job of punching the ball out every time it came anywhere near him. Well done. And do you know who was man of the match? Do you know the name of our star player?

4:03We sing a song about him. We have borrowed the Beatles hit Hey Jude to sing to this man because he is just so phenomenal. What's his name? Is this Harry Kane? Well, no, the clue's in singing Hey Jude to him. Right. Harry Kane's the captain. What's the other guy? The guy who scored two of the three gold? I mean, I have no idea. We're eating into politics time with this conversation. Carry on. That man's called Jude Bellingham. OK. And he's a hero. He's magnificent. And we love him. What happens next in this? We're taking on some Vikings. You mean that isn't it? I thought we'd won. What, you thought we'd won the World Cup last night?

4:40No, Tim, we're only just out of the 16. There's more. We've got a quarterfinal on Saturday. And who are we playing? Who do you think we're playing? When I say Vikings. I'm playing Norway. Yes. And do you know who their star striker is? He's a massive man. Big, big man. No. Erling Haaland. Okay. who is absolutely supreme. Yeah. I heard that people are willing to pay£6 million for a ticket to watch this game. Isn't that extraordinary? Isn't that extraordinary? Yeah. And is that being sold by a tout outside the stadium? Well, I don't know. £6 million. Do you know who could afford such a ticket price?

5:14Now he's taken£5 million from Christopher Harbour. Do you see how I've just managed to crowbar in the next segment? Well, I can tell you who definitely can't afford it. Who's that? And that's Angela Rayner. Oh, my goodness. Filling in for James O 'Brien on LBC this morning. Yes. It was some of the funniest radio I've ever heard. You could tell that she had a massive hangover. Right. She'd agreed to do this thing weeks in advance and probably thought because the football was happening the night before, we obviously won't go ahead with it because who's going to work the next day? And instead she finds herself sitting in a boiling hot studio.

5:48This is her talking about it. 34 degree heat. Oh, no. You can tell with a bottle of LucasAid very close by, clinging onto the table for dear life. And like many of you, probably haven't slept much. So hopefully we'll have a good few hours. I've got some hot topics for you. Not least, I mean, we've just got to start with what a magnificent match. I don't know about you guys, but that's definitely put me in a really good mood. We've had some really good weather. A bit too good for a ginger from Manchester, if I'm honest. Once we get past 34 degrees, I start to wilt a little bit. and my colleagues were like, Angie, you look miserable.

6:23It's like, no, that's northerners when it gets above 34 degrees. She clearly doesn't want to do this. And she's saying, let's just keep it optimistic. Let's just be upbeat. We've won the football. Let's just discuss something light. First caller, what are your views about trade with British Somaliland? Oh, you're joking. Who phoned in with that one? Gavin Williamson from the Tories. He's obsessed with the Somaliland. That she hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. Anyway, he gets very exercised about Somaliland and how we should be trading with it. And it's an absolute disgrace that we're not.

6:55And finally, she cuts him off and says, well, I just want to say thank you very much for your optimism about Somaliland. But I'm afraid we have to go to a commercial break. And then there's silence. And then she says, do you know I've got that wrong? I've got to have another caller now. No, you're joking. It wasn't a break. It wasn't a break. She went to an early break. Bless her. I mean, to be fair, we like to see politicians pioneering their radio skills. I don't. I don't understand why they do it. No, but I love this because, of course, the left constantly complains about GB News. Yes. And the fact that we employ politicians and presenters.

7:30No, it's OK, because if you're on the left, and let's be honest, LBC pioneered this. They had David Lammy on long before Nigel Farage was hitting prime time. That's right. It's perfectly acceptable. She had, but you can tell throughout she's just thinking, bring me a coffee. Just bring me more coffee. When people are talking on the phone, she puts the hand over the mic and shouts, get me a couple of aspirin. And maybe a massive glass of wine. And there was one lady who was saying, they were discussing care and the lady was saying, I've been lying in this bed for six months. And you can tell Angela's thinking, oh, you lucky cow.

8:00I'm there right now. To the flannel of my face. Stop it. I'm telling you what we need to do. We need to have a World Cup watch party for the quarterfinals with you and our Ange side by side. in some kind of like, it's not goggle box, it's telebox. It's telegraph box and we just film you both as you both take in the scenes. But Angela does have a lot of giggles, a lot of laughs about Nigel Farage. Yes, I bet she does. So she's absolutely revelling in this, having been the victim of her own witch hunt, also known as journalistic story. I do love these politicians. This is a witch hunt. No, it's just reporting by a newspaper.

8:39When the inquisition comes for you, I never expected the times, who have reported on Nigel Farage's relationship, which we've known for a while, with the wealthy online gambling millionaire George Cottrell. Also known as Posh George. He is, I would suggest, Nigel Farage's right-hand man. And I think they have quite a kind of pseudo father and son relationship. Often, whenever Nigel Farage is anywhere, George Cottrell isn't far behind. It's been reported that he calls him Daddy. I'm not sure whether that's true. But he has been on the reform scene for many, many years and provided a whole amount of emotional support to Nigel Farage in his quest to get Brexit done, in his quest to become the leader of previous parties, Brexit and beyond, and been very supportive to him now in his new role as the MP for Clacton-on-Sea.

9:32He's only 32. Yes. And in 2017, he pled guilty to wire fraud. Basically, he got into a conversation with FBI agents who were posing as drug traffickers. Yes. And he agreed to help them to launder money. He cut a deal. Yes. He got several months in prison. He got eight months, I believe. He got eight months in prison and he was let out. He then made big bucks in crypto gambling, which I don't even begin to understand what that is. Moved to Monaco? Possibly. Or Montenegro. Montenegro. He runs a casino there. One of the M's. Now, we've known about this relationship for a long time. We've known about posh George for a long time.

10:10And what Reform has always said is he's a very close friend of Nigel. Yep. And Nigel is loyal to him. Yes. And you should give people another chance in life, which I think is entirely admirable. And I agree. And what I don't, the one element about this story, which I really don't like, is the implication that because someone's been to prison, you should cut off all contact with them for the rest of your life. Yes. And politicians in particular should keep them at arm's length. I don't think that's fair. Fair enough. But of course, reformists would say that. But the issue isn't just the friendship between Nigel Farage and George.

10:45The issue is that we know George has given money and gifts to Nigel, including gifts in kind. And these should, if they did happen, have been declared 12 months prior to Nigel's election as an MP. OK, so I totally agree with your point on rehabilitation and I understand that Mr Cottrell has even written a book on the insider world of money laundering in a bid to raise awareness. He's not pro it. He's not the poster boy for it. He did the crime, he's done his time. Yeah, precisely. What this is actually about is very similar in a way to the Christopher Harbourn donation and how it's currently being treated.

11:25Because under the MP's code of conduct, as you say, even if you don't know at the time that you're receiving the funding stroke benefit in kind stroke, whatever the support, even if you don't know at that point that you might go on to be a parliamentarian, There's a clause in this code of conduct that says once you are elected, you have to retrospectively go back 12 months and reveal who gave you what and when and by how much so that the electorate can see who's funding you, where you're getting your money from, donations or gifts or otherwise, to then just have a degree of transparency around how and with whose help you were elected.

12:05And this is meant to cut out people buying influence in politics. Yes. But it's not just the gifts themselves. We're looking for any possible sign that someone's politics might be being dictated to by their donors. The test for whether or not influence may have been exerted is a reasonableness one. So it is basically saying, could it reasonably be assumed that by taking this money, stroke this benefit, stroke this gift, that it has affected the parliamentarian's actual work, that it might have influenced what they say in the House, what they do with policy, so on and so forth. Now, I had a very interesting interview with Robert Jenrick, who was on the broadcast round yesterday, spoke to him on GB News.

12:45To be fair to Mr Jenrick, because we have struggled in recent times to get Mr Farage, or indeed Zia Youssef, on the show, because I think there is a sense among reform that I rough them up a little bit. Now, when you've got a massive investigation on the front of the Sunday Times, it is the first question you're going to ask, and probably the last question you're going to ask. and I did try and probe with Mr Jenrick exactly what had gone on here. And this is how that conversation played out. He's an old friend who gave him some money to support his activities before he was a Member of Parliament.

13:18It had nothing to do with his life as a Member of Parliament because, remember, he wasn't considering being a Member of Parliament. He actually ruled it out. This is about the 12th. This is why... To be fair, you can do the whole nothing to see here. Clearly there's something to see. Why? Because at the moment he's under investigation for Christopher Holmes. Farborne's five million. Jenrick's approach was quite interesting. Obviously, he came into the studio on the defence and he would have to do that because he's going into bat for Nigel Farage. Yeah. He's a new leader, so to speak. I'm not sure whether it necessarily washes to say the only reason the Sunday Times has launched this investigation is because they once supported Labour.

13:58Gabriel Pogrand and the others who have their name on the story have also done a lot of knocking stories on Labour, most notably Labour Together. Famously, Joss Simons then stood down in Makerfield to make way for Andy Burnham. So I think when it comes to Pogran, we've also seen Richard Tice, the deputy leader of Reform UK, today say on X, oh, Pogran's only doing this because he hates reform and he's a staunch Labour supporter. Hang on, to use a football analogy, let's play the ball and not the man. I think sort of pointing at journalists and saying you're doing this as part of some kind of media conspiracy isn't quite the right tack to take.

14:33The second line of defence is the only reason why this is being reported is because there are so many forces at play that want Nigel Farage out of politics completely. So it's a mash-up between the Labour-supporting Sunday Times, the Conservative Party, because it was Kevin Hollingrake, the chair, that initially made the complaint about the Harbourn donation that's currently being investigated. This is all one big conspiracy. And I'm not sure that's true. I think that if the shoe was on the other foot and if an opponent of Mr Jenrick's was being investigated, he would be the first to jump on the you have questions to answer bandwagon, would he not?

15:13The other thing is that it's strange how reform cannot put up a defence in answer to the individual charges. If you go back to the Harbourn£5 million donation, Farage keeps being asked, how did you spend it? And he's not actually given a clear account yet of where the money goes to. who just says, none of your business, none of your business. Well, initially it was a gift for Brexit. Then it was help with security. Then it was, well, I could spend it on whatever I like, Ferraris if I wanted to, in response to questions, well, have you spent it on security and how much? And likewise, when you pressed Jenrick on the Cottrell donations and the 12 months up to the 2024 election, he wasn't able actually to specifically say what the money was or what it went towards.

15:57and when the issue of the number of houses that Nigel owns comes up, he just kept batting it away with, are you a journalist for The Telegraph saying people shouldn't be allowed to own a holiday home? Well, why can you not just definitively say how many homes you have and where the funding for them came from? By the way, I've got no objection at all to people having many homes. I'm merely making the point and the reason why I was asking the questions I was asking is because I'm a journalist, not an activist for any party. And anyone that saw the other interviews will know that the other people who came on the show, most notably James Murray, bless him, the health secretary, got really quite badly roughed up.

16:37Oh, fell apart. Yes, he was a puddle on the floor. Well, he had to reveal that he no longer thinks women can have penises, which didn't go well for him. But just on that point... You're always completely scrupulously fair in the sense that you're horrible to everyone. I'm horrible to everyone, universally. That's just my modus operandi. But the point is, I was trying to say about five million pound donations and five homes Farage and then money from George Cottrell. But it seemed to be contradictory to Nigel Farage's entire shtick. And his entire shtick is that he cannot be bought. That's the thing.

17:11That he is anti-establishment, that he isn't elite, that he is the people's politician. So this is where all of this is a genuine weakness for reform, which is it undermines the image of the man of the people. I mean, one of the Cottrell donations was for a US domestic flight and it ran into the thousands of pounds. I'm guessing that wasn't sitting in economy, right? No. And not being able to fully account for the number of homes you have. This is something that's so out of the life experience of the average Red Waller that I think it starts to become a problem. It's a rich man's populism. But what we're also dealing with is a new phenomenon in this country, which is politics as a business.

17:52Hitherto, politics has been carried out by institutionalized parties that have been around for decades. They receive private donations, big ones, from trade unions, from businessmen. But they depend, really, for their structure and their organization upon grassroots activism. Reform isn't like that. Reform is a startup. It was set up by rich people. And there are rich people in the last decade who have found that they can make money out of politics. An example of that is GB News. We've never had that kind of openly political, center-right, independent media before, which is making money out of politics and political debate.

18:32I'm a good capitalist. I'm not against it. I'm just saying it's new. And this creates a blurred line between the political, the personal, and the financial. So equally interesting to me is the suggestion that Nigel has made money out of promoting gold bullion. Yes. Think about the United States. There, Donald Trump is thought to have made about$2 billion since the beginning of his second term, of which$1 billion has come out of crypto. And his administration has promoted crypto. Yes. OK. This is what happens when business enters into politics. Now, as I say, there is a defence that can be mounted for this, which is this, that Nigel Farage couldn't be in Parliament without this kind of funding.

19:21Yes. Because reform has only been around for a few years, it's not had decades to raise money and build grassroots and all that sort of stuff. They've had to set it up overnight. And that depends upon the generosity of rich people helping it over the line. And if you were to say you've now got to account for the last 12 months, then I bet no one could survive and reform by that test because they've just had to raise money this way. There was no other way of doing it. So if the main parties come for reform on this basis, that it's financed independently, that it's operating like a business rather than a political party, what they're effectively saying is no start-up can enter politics.

20:03You have to have been around for decades. or, more unrealistically, you have to begin as like a little independent councillor who gets elected and raises a few pennies from your neighbours. Well, listen, Labour and the Tories might want... This is a double standard. No, OK, so Labour and the Tories might well want to say that because they are established parties that are set up in a completely different way. But this is the rub for reform because reform is saying, first of all, well, Nigel didn't have any formal role in those 12 months before. Exactly, yes. He wasn't an MP. But you could say two things.

20:36Well, he was honorary president of reform because this was the generic argument. Look, he was going into the jungle on I'm a Celebrity and he was working for GB News. He didn't even know there would be an election. And by the way, he had ruled himself out before he then ruled himself in at a press conference we both attended, right? Yes, within days. But the counter-narrative to that is, well, no, hang on. He's a major shareholder in reform, an actual political party, and he's honorary president. So you can't just say he was incidental. He wasn't just on the outskirts. He was fully embedded in the operation, even if he wasn't yet declared or indeed elected as an MP.

21:11Yes. Point one. Second of all, George Cottrell was incidental. He was just Nigel Farage's friend. Well, there has since emerged a business card with George Cottrell's name on it, with the Reform logo and Nigel Farage's own email address. That suggests that George Cottrell wasn't incidental to Reform. He wasn't on the outside. He was very much on the inside. And that therefore gives more weight to the idea that the support he was given to Nigel Farage did influence his behaviour as a future parliamentarian. And that's the point. And decades ago, centuries ago, I remember Liam Fox having to step down as Defence Secretary because he was taking a friend around.

21:52Adam Werity. Right, who was claiming access and a responsibility that he probably didn't have. In other words, this sort of thing just happens within politics. The question is, why does it feel very often the focus is upon right wing parties? Boris Johnson was basically forced out of politics by the Privileges Committee. Why does it tend to focus on them and not so much on left-wing parties? And I think this is being deployed as a weapon. And that's a huge mistake because let's think about, let's play it through as to what could actually happen here. So it could be that Nigel Farage is judged to have broken the rules by not declaring the money for 12 months.

22:32He is then suspended for 30 days, which allows for a recall where the signatures are gathered. It's very easy to do. Parliament's made it far too easy to recall an MP. A by-election is called, and Nigel Farage wins it by about 70%. Yes. An enormous waste of time and the public's money. Yes. And it will make Nigel even stronger. Because what we have learnt from Trump and from countries throughout Europe, this has been done to Marine Le Pen. This was done in Romania. Liberals keep thinking we can just use the courts and the law to stop people we don't like from winning elections. And almost every time they've done it, that person's still one.

23:13I can't believe people are so thick as to not realise this doesn't work as a political strategy. Although we did speak to the Tory MP Katie Lamb earlier and I put it to her that there could be an alternative outcome. And that outcome could be that my old friend and hers, Robert Jenrick, ends up as leader of reform. This is what she had to say about it. I would not be surprised if it were part of his calculation for why he changed party. But I don't know. I haven't spoken to him. I've got no particular insight. But you two were quite close once, weren't you? Like within the party? You got on quite well.

23:48Yeah, and I supported him for the leadership. But I haven't spoken to him since he left the party. He hasn't been in touch. I'd just take one issue with this idea that broadcast hasn't been weaponised for political purposes. We have had the advent, haven't we, in recent years of organisations like Navara Media that have existed on the left. I mean, there seems to be this, you know, if you're a kind of activist journalist on the right, it's a problem if you're one on the left, you know, you go and get a plum job at the BBC. Maybe you even run the institution. This is my only distinction that I would make just with regard to GB News.

24:22And they would say, of course, the difference is no elected officials present Navarro, whereas the GB News does offer a platform to an elected official. Absolutely, and I take that point. Ross Kempsell, who, funny enough, was given a peerage by Boris Johnson and sits in the House of Lords. At an incredibly young age. Very young age, basically like, you know, barely even being conceived at the point that he was elevated. He's made a good point, which I think is worthy of some further investigation. He's saying, listen, we can all look at reform, but shouldn't the right, and I think this is aimed at the Tories, because I think Kempsell is somebody who says, can we just remember that we're in opposition here to oppose Labour, not anyone else?

25:01But he's basically saying donors to Labour were awarded around£138 million in government contracts during Starmer's first year in office. 25 Labour donors have won a staggering, it's nearly£800 million in government contracts since 2001. Labour's donation scandal is vast. The difference is the media is broadly less interested. Gear Starmer's clothes. Andy Burnham's business interests. You know, why is it all focused on Nigel Farage and not looking actually at the people who are actually in government, Tim? And I think that's a very good point. And as an example of politics making strange bedfellows, Boris Johnson appointed as a crossbench peer, Evgeny Lebedev, who is descended from a KGB operative, who gave hospitality to Boris, whose appointment has been very controversial, and who in recent times has attended something like 1 % to 2 % of all House of Lords debates.

26:06So he's not really been participating in the chamber. The point that reform is entitled to make is lots of people have strange friends they can't account for in politics. It's just that, again, partly because it's institutionalised within Tories and Labour, it's formal and therefore it's sort of excusable. No, but then again, here's the rub for reform. Reform are meant to be different. They don't want the electorate saying he's just like the rest of them. He's just like uni party politicians who fill their boots and elevate their mates to positions of huge influence and privilege. He was meant to be different to the rest of them.

26:48And that's the problem. So I appreciate what you're saying. Look, they're all at it. But that's not a category Nigel Farage ever wanted to be placed in. But was he supposed to be different? I'm not sure that the Farage appeal is that he is different in that account. I'm not sure. I just don't think it's ever been part of his political personality that we all looked at him and thought, well, I'll give him one thing. He's squeaky clean. I think it's actually Cheeky Chappy who's playing the system at its own game. And that's part of the appeal of Donald Trump as well. It's that old thing of he says to the voters, you know, everything that you suspect about politics, it's all true.

27:19And I know that because I'm doing it too. The issue is, can they then use that insider knowledge to work it to our advantage? Now, I know some people might say that's totally ethically beyond the pale. Yeah. But I'm just saying that for those who think they can bring reform down this way, I think that's a big mistake. If anything, if they force a contest, I think reform would come back stronger from it. Well, from one potentially naughty boy to another, coming up next, we're going to be discussing Prince Harry. What on earth has he been up to now?

27:59We're now joined by our Telegraph Royal Editor, Hannah Furness. Hannah, I'm a little confused. Who's been invited to what? Who is the person who said no to what? I'm a little confused and nobody studies this more than I do. We are in total chaos at this point. So Harry lands today in Britain, ready to start his trip tomorrow. He was coming, then he was bringing his family. Now he's not bringing his family to London, but he might take his family somewhere else. He was not staying at Buckingham Palace. Then he was staying at Buckingham Palace. Then he said no to staying at Buckingham Palace on Saturday.

28:33So the king has invited him. It's a longstanding invitation. Then he changed his mind later on Saturday to say he did want to stay at the palace. And the palace had said enough is enough. We're not changing the plans again. You're not staying. Let's take a step back. Harry is here for five days. Five days. For trips around his old patronages. The Invictus Games is the main reason he's here. So one year out to the Invictus Games, which is his best initiative ever, wounded and sick servicemen. He's going to get on a stage in Birmingham and do a speech about it. Meghan may or may not come with him.

29:05We still don't know. But he's also here because there happens to be a court case going on at the moment. Remind us about that. So there is a court case he has claims in against Associated Newspapers, which is the publisher of The Mail on Sunday and The Daily Mail. He is due to find out tomorrow whether he has won those claims or lost those claims or somewhere in the middle. Which is a very big deal, right? Because if he has won them, then he has proven, what, that the newspaper interfered in his life in a terrible way. Yeah, he has 14 claims. So he will probably win some and lose some. We don't know yet.

29:40We will find out at 2pm on Tuesday when the judgment gets handed down. He is trying to establish that the tabloid newspapers, exactly as you say, that it was a legal information gathering that brought stories that ended up in the paper, which the newspapers say are from genuine sources, they're from ring-ins, they're from his friends. He is saying they're from a legal information gathering. And so if he wins, he will prove that, and he'll have to be vindicated in the eyes of the world. But if he loses, that's bad too for him, isn't it? because that proves this has been a big fuss about nothing and that what happened with him was really no different to how they collected information about any other celebrity and in fact he may actually have participated in it.

30:22Yes, and this is his big thing. He's portrayed himself as a dragon slayer, the big mighty press against the little man and he sees himself as representing anybody who has ever had a run-in with the press and doesn't have the resources that he has to fight against it. So this is a massive emotional thing for him. He's had cases like this before. he's won some, he's lost some. This would be a huge win. What we don't know yet is, hypothetically, if he wins one out of 14 claims, is that a victory? Does that feel like a victory? How will Associated Newspapers paint that versus how will Prince Harry paint that?

30:55That is all going to land on the first day that he is in Britain on his official engagements. I'm just looking at all this thinking, if people today are going to declare for Harry, England and St George, They're definitely going to be saying it about Cain and not Mountbatten, right? There's a contradiction at heart here. And it is this. On one hand, he's getting the outcome from this privacy case. Basically, infamy, infamy. They've all had it infamy. I've been hounded like my late mother, Princess Diana. And yet, over the course of the last 48 hours, we've got a classic example of a prince wanting his cake and eating it.

31:35to mix my dynastic references, because obviously that's a bit more Marie Antoinette. But why on earth are the press being briefed with every single second of this unfolding drama? Good point. If this is a man who hates the press, along with his wife, escaped the horrors of the royal family to Montecito to have a quiet life. I cannot believe, actually on both sides, I also in part blame the palace for this, that we have had every cough and spit of every negotiation of everything he's going to do when he's in the UK, mindful of the fact the whole reason he's having a row over his security is because he thinks he's vulnerable when he leaves L.A.

32:22So this is the other strand to it, which is the security, isn't it, which is separate to the other legal case. This is another case that he wants his security reexamined. And for this trip, he hasn't got it. He's got the same security he always has, which over here is limited taxpayer funded security on a case by case basis. He hasn't got it for this trip. and yes I mean I've been questioning this myself of if you're if you're feeling vulnerable and like you don't have enough security it's very problematic to me that you're telling everybody that you're vulnerable and you have no security and here are the engagements that you're going to do.

32:55I'm here I'm here and I'm here at this time and I might be staying here or I might not but by the way while we're at it let's just lay bare for the world's media the machinations of my negotiations, not only with my father, the king, but the so-called palace powers that be. I mean, I did speak to, let's call them a royal source, Tim, last week, who appeared to be pulling their hair out at the ongoing sort of dialogue. We know it wasn't William because there's nothing to pull. Oh, indeed. Prince Edward. But it could have been somebody else. Tearing their hair out at just the idea that every cough and spit of this is ending up in headlines.

33:36As far as I could tell last week, and correct me if I'm wrong, Hannah, he asked for accommodation. Accommodation was provided. This is the king's decision and not Prince William's because I don't think Prince William thinks that any of this should be being entertained, by the way. William and Kate, very much of the opinion, don't get sucked into the Sussex drama. And I think after recent events this morning, I mean, we can probably forgive them for that. They just want to rise above and just leave it all out there. Anyway, a king as a father loves his son, loves his erstwhile, absent, errant son, wants to get him back here, preferably would like to see his grandchildren because at the end of the day, the last time he did see these little ones, Lilibet and Archie, it was back in 2022, which in child's years is ages ago, isn't it?

34:28I mean, they've completely changed since then. and this has all been kind of some kind of like public power play. Harry and Meghan, oh, well, we're too vulnerable to come. You're not looking after us. So it's the narrative around the palace doesn't care. It's also the narrative around it's the world against us, but it's also the narrative around just make your bloody mind up. Do you want to stay at the palace or not? Because if I was running the palace, and let's be honest, it's empty. I mean, maybe it's easy to just put a couple of people up in one of the rooms. I mean, there's about 400 bedrooms there, but presumably you need a whole staffing arrangement around it.

35:04And by the way, you need to put security costs. It's literally a case of, look, mate, this isn't booking.com. You know, there isn't a cancellation fee. Just sign up to stay here or find accommodation elsewhere. Other Airbnbs are available and you're going to have to pay for that, I'm afraid. I think the word we keep hearing is tiresome, weary, wary. it's this back and forth that we've started calling it the Sussex Circus that people are finding very difficult and you know the palace it's a big palace they have lots of rooms but are they going to tear up the rotors on a Saturday after they've already been told categorically in writing that Harry doesn't want to stay there he changed his mind again it requires work I think the lack of courtesy has left people quite troubled at the palace we need to explain that rota thing to Tim because like you can't just rock up at Buckingham Palace with a suitcase and say, oh, hi, can I have room 315, please?

35:59Like you need... Why not? Because, well, first of all... Given, as you said, it is a large empty palace, which the king doesn't care to use. No, I know. I mean, he's either staying in Clarence House or Highgrove or somewhere else. So apart from the Chinese tourists in the throne room, what's the fuss about letting a member of your family stay in your massive house for a couple of days? Well, there wasn't a fuss is the problem. So he was invited. He could have stayed. Yeah, but he didn't reply quickly enough. He didn't reply quickly enough and then he didn't say yes. He said no. Right, OK. He said no and then he said yes.

36:30And then he changed his mind and then he said yes. Why don't we just say, OK. Because they haven't put the sheets in the washing machine. They have to let the bed down? What are you saying? I don't know. But also, don't forget, what would his demands be while he's here? It's not going to be, oh, we'll leave you to your own devices. Here's the Nespresso machine. You know, help yourself to some toast and jam. The Indian Palace have those little biscuits. I don't know if they do. Two and a pack. If we're ever invited, we will be micking some. Ginger and chocolate chip. I don't know if we can give Prince Harry ginger nuts, can we?

37:01Very good. Sorry, Hannah. To the fellow ginger in the room, I'll be calling HR. To be in his defence, he is coming to this country to do public good. He's not just coming for an holiday. He's coming to do the Invictus Games. And he would quite like to bring his family. That makes sense. She did marry him here. She is part of the family. We'd all quite like to see them, actually. We're all very curious about how the family's doing. Are you, Tim? Why not? Would you like to see them? Oh, Camilla, you devote a lot of your time talking about them. So I assume you're curious too. I don't know. It's just an occupational hazard these days.

37:37I mean, they keep on making news and we keep on having to comment on it. Right. OK, so if he is this great generator of interest, does it not make sense to say, if you're coming to this country to do this very good thing, we will pay for your security? And then when it comes to where he stays, I once went to a party that Donald Trump was invited to but didn't turn up to. And it had insane security with helicopters and people in tanks, right? The reality of American celebrity is that every time you go somewhere, it is an enormous operation. And the suggestion that Harry can just stay in the top floor of the local Hilton or something, I'd imagine that's far more difficult to do, in fact.

38:19and more of a cost than you can stay in Buckingham Palace where you can just land your helicopter in the middle of it and you need never see a member of the public. I suspect it's actually more convenient for everyone just to say, have a couple of rooms in Buckingham Palace for a few days. But you say that. I mean, a couple have in the past stayed in hotels. I'm sure they have, but he's coming here for a formal... He's meant to go off from Montecito and sometimes stay at this place like a little bit like some LA equivalent of Soho House. Are they not family? Closer to the city. Are they not family?

38:48Would you not want them to stay in the family home? You would. You're seeing this very much from they're the ones briefing, they're the ones being negative. It looks like the behaviour of the Windsors looks a little weird. I know. That you would say, you were too slow or you said yes and then you changed your mind. You can't stay here. I would rather not see your wife and kids. I do find that a little odd. And we all know William and Kate are briefing the press as well. The briefing wars are not just Harry and Meghan. They're also whispering about their relatives. Hang on. Hang on a minute, Stanley.

39:18Stanley? Oh, well, okay. Not them personally. Their people, I can promise you, their people are not briefing about the Sussex. They've had nothing to do with this now. They've got nothing to say about them. Okay, right. So who was this person you were talking to who was tearing their hair up? Someone's talking. If I told you that, I would have to kill you. Let's put it this way. Princess Anne would kill me either way. So your lovely mother, right? You say to her, right? You say to her. Yeah. How would she feel if you're like, right, I'm coming into town and I'm definitely going to stay. Can you put me up?

39:47Yes, I can. Actually, no, I don't know if I'm coming anymore. No, I'm not going to come and stay. OK, well, can you just confirm either way? Because I've got some plans for this weekend and I've got stuff to do. No, I am coming. I'm staying. No, I'm not staying. I'm going, oh, my wife can come. My wife can't come. The children can come. You'd just be, I'm sorry, but Mama Stanley would be going, Tim, get you all together. No, she wouldn't. She'd be very annoyed, but she'd say, of course you can come because she's not a psychopath. Well, just to rewind slightly from Psychopath, the problem for Harry has been that he hasn't wanted to stay at Buckingham Palace for a specific reason, which is that he thinks that going in and out of the palace will leave him vulnerable to people seeing him coming and go, seeing his car and possibly following the car through London.

40:35So he sees that as a risk to his security, that element of coming and going from the palace, not the palace itself. So they have chosen, they would rather in previous trips stay somewhere private where they just sort of hope and trust that nobody discovers where they are and nobody can catch them going to and from events. OK, that I do find weird. That's the complicating element of this. That I do find weird because at any time of the day you can walk past Buckingham Palace and at some point the gates will open and a little car will pootle out and it's the king. Yes. with almost zero security.

41:06Or just have blacked out, have tinted windows on a Range Rover. What are they worried about? So that's why he didn't accept this invitation for so long. Because he's trying to figure out the to-ing and fro-ing of where is he most safe. And only on Saturday he decided that it was Buckingham Palace. OK, well, it's a logistics thing. It took him a while to figure it out. OK, but wherever this guy appears, I mean, for reasons aforementioned, he's quite noticeable. wherever he appears. Forget paps. And by the way, there is no market for illicit photography of Harry right now because of this court case, because of the fact that he has used lawfare to close down any publicity he cannot control himself.

41:48And we can have a separate debate about that. The enemy here isn't the press or the photographers. It's the public. Wherever this guy pitches up, someone somewhere is going to stick a mobile phone in his face So it makes immaterial difference. It happens to the actual royals who are booed where they go by the republic idiots. It happens to anyone in the public eye, Tim. Yes. And actually, you have, I'm sorry, but this is the other thing as well. This is the contradiction. You keep on attracting so much attention to yourself. At what point do you and your wife say, do you know what? When we do this stuff, we've got to fly in under the radar, fly out under the radar, not brief, the world in his mate as to our travel arrangements, our security arrangements, our accommodation arrangements.

42:37You turn up like any royal normally does. We don't get involved in the nitty-gritty of where are they flying and where are they staying and everybody there. We just wait for them to arrive. We stand behind a rope and a royal arrives at an event and you stand there with a notebook and go, oh, what's all this about? Oh, it's a year until Invictus. Oh, is he going to make a speech? We'll report on that. Oh, what's Meghan wearing? Oh, have they got the children with them? that's how we don't need all of this hullabaloo yeah yeah do you see yeah i mean it's like anything taylor swift's wedding yeah we can have some speculation but until the bride and groom actually turn up in the venue and you can get some celebrity guests and you can get a bit of the speech and you can get a bit of oh they cried you know you don't have anything to report we wouldn't have anything to report if it weren't for these constant briefings i think they're just thinking too much like Americans.

43:24Because the paradox is, is in this country, we treat royals in some ways like regular celebrities, whereas in America, they treat regular celebrities like they are royals. And there's an expectation of security and privacy and respect in the United States for famous people, that even though we have a monarchy here, we don't actually show anyone in this country. You say that Tom Cruise could be at a Starbucks and have a horde of photographers taking a photograph of him sipping an iced latte. He wouldn't get booed. Well, he might by people who don't like the Scientology stuff. Hannah, I mean, there's a lot.

44:01I think they're confecting some of this drama. That's all I'm saying. It's very emotional for Harry. Harry wants his father to ride in and say, I will intervene in your security because I love you so much. The palace correctly says, constitutionally, the king can't be seen to be involved in the security. It's got to be a father coming to see a son, hopefully with some grandchildren there and a daughter-in-law he's very fond of. And it just at this point feels like it's going to be so difficult and so much of a circus for any of it to happen. It's sad. Could be Harry's next book. The difficulty of having a dad.

44:43The last one was really well written. It was one of the best written biographies. But of course, he didn't write it. It was his pen. But he didn't write it. The difficulty of having a dad who's also a king by Prince Harry. I mean, it's unfortunate, isn't it? I mean, it's not like I get what you're saying with regard to this kind of dysfunctionality. You know, booking in for a cup of tea with your own dad and having a separate committee decide whether you are safe or not to come back to Blighty to see your nearest and dearest. It's not straightforward, is it? but you're absolutely right that what on paper is an itinerary of very straightforward engagements it's the kind of thing he could have done in 2018 2008 any point he was in the walking working royal family and now all eyes are on it it's all we're talking about and all of this week will be this heightened family drama yes uh flame head hannah using your ginger uh spider senses which I have referred to quite unfairly on this podcast before I seem to be suggesting that Hannah has some kind of like telepathic bond ginger people are all connected I'm just wondering if she can use her ginger powers to try and surmise what might actually happen tomorrow let's get get some Hannah finesse predictions I can find Fergie that's right I do think that there's an alert that goes up yes that she also secretly knows where Fergie is but just isn't going to tell us because of the ginger secret club.

46:12It's the same with people called Tim, although we're always asking each other, where am I? Stop that. Also, to be fair, Camilla's have a special thing going on. They have to stick together, yes. I mean, you know, quite a lot of people say that's where I get all my information. Hannah, what's your prediction then? Is Harry coming alone? Yes or no? I think this prediction changes by that hour because we're being given different information. We're caveating it. In this specific second, Harry is definitely coming. He's not going to let his charities down. He's going to do five days of engagement. Meghan and the children are not coming to London.

46:50My guess would be that they would come to the later bits of the week in private outside London. So they could stay at Old Throp, for example, or Diana's family home where they could visit her grave. I would be surprised if they didn't do that because Harry has made quite a big thing of how he wants his children to both know his side of the family, the Spencer family, but get to know Britain and enjoy his homeland. And they're all in Europe anyway, so not far. They're already in Europe. Another couple of predictions. Photo of King and Harry. We won't see it. No. Any contact at all between Harry and William?

47:26None. Right. That's the only one I'm certain of. That will not change. A photo, there's a word, somebody had a good theory the other day, which I think could happen, which is if he does see his grandchildren, perhaps somebody would take a photo of the King, Archie, Lilibet, Harry, Meghan, whoever is there. They won't release it to the press. Maybe could we see it behind him in a Christmas speech in a frame at some point? A sort of discreet, very royal way of doing something like that. Then you and I will be asked, can we pan on this photo? Could you identify the clothing that Lilibet and Archie are wearing?

48:00Yes, I'll pencil that in for Christmas Day. Yeah, great. Christmas written off already, Tim. Fascinating this, isn't it? A little glimpse into our world. Strange, strange people. And that's just us. That's just us. That's just the people commentating. We'll be back with more fun and frolics, including the judgment. We will have to cover the Harry privacy male judgment tomorrow, 5pm.

48:51Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hello, American podcast listeners. Max Rushton here from the Guardian Football Weekly, which I think you should give a listen. It is good. It comes out three times a week and the podcast delivers you analysis, news, both the good and the bad from the beautiful game and maybe even the occasional laugh. He's angry about everything. He doesn't have a great poker face, does he? I would like to play cards with Bruno Fernandes. You can listen to the Guardian Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Hopefully see you soon.

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