Is Meghan's Netflix series another 'exercise in narcissism'?

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:14Camilla: Royals, they're the gift that keeps on giving, and so too is Megan's Netflix show. A new series has been released. I know you've all been eagerly anticipating its arrival onto your goggle box. and I'll be going through everything that she speaks about with our Royal Editor, Hannah Furness. Stay tuned for some very useful tips on things like how to make your own vanilla bean and turmeric flavoured marshmallows. For this special Daily Tea, we'll also be joined by The Telegraph's Deputy Royal Editor, Vicky Ward, because there's lots to discuss in Royal Land. Will William and Harry ever speak to each other again?

1:49Camilla: Why are William and Kate moving to a bigger pad in Windsor? Why does nobody want to live at Buckingham Palace? And what does the future hold with Harry planning to visit the UK in September? Will we witness a royal reunion? Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominey.

2:16Camilla: Right, full disclosure, we did record our royal chat last week and then Meghan's second series of her Netflix documentary dropped. Obviously, we have to unpack that. Hannah, you've returned to the studio. Let's just discuss what our colleague and the entertainment editor, Anita Singh, described in her two-star review. She called it, quotes, an exercise in narcissism. About the Montecito Marie Antoinette. Oh, the Montecito Marie Antoinette. The reviews haven't been very kind. Have you watched it? I've watched all of it. I've watched every episode, so you don't have to. Thank you, because I really won't.

2:55So, straight up, you need to understand this is not a programme for people who want to know the royal gossip. This is not the programme like Harry and Meghan, the documentary that they did when they left the royal family where they talked about everything that went wrong and handed over all their personal details. Beyonce's texted. Oh, yes. And William texted, but we're not going to tell you what he said. No, indeed. This is a programme about Meghan, her cooking. So if you want to know the gossip about the royals, it's not for you. If you want to know how many different types of food you can sprinkle a flower petal on, this is the one.

3:24Great.

3:25Camilla: And we can be foraging for flower petals around Victoria a little later. But there are promo interviews to accompany the release of the series, because obviously she wants as many people to watch it as possible. She's signed a new deal with Netflix or she hasn't, Hannah? What's gone on there? They have got a new deal. It's quite a nuanced deal. It is a lesser deal than their first one, which, as you know, they never said how much it was. It was reported$100 million. this one is a first look deal so from now on any programs that harry and megan make through their archwell production company netflix will get first dibs on essentially so if they want to buy it they can if they don't they can shop them elsewhere to be fair netflix could have turned around and said we don't want to do any further deals so they must be doing something right they must be doing something right perhaps there's a little bit of face saving here nobody on either side wants to admit that the later programs haven't been as successful as the first programs maybe there's the chance for the Sussexes to sit back and figure out what they're doing that is popular with viewers.

4:26Yeah.

4:26Camilla: It's never going to be more popular than Warts and All though, is it? It's like they'll never do an interview better than the Oprah one. No. And perhaps Netflix think that's what we want. That's what we wanted them for. That's what we've got. Yeah. And it's time for a new era. And that era is lifestyle shows, flower petals. Okay. And she's given an interview where she's talked about how she felt she wasn't living her authentic self during her time in the royal family because she was made to wear tights, also known as pantyhose in American parlance. Your reaction, because correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember there being a diktat on royals wearing tights.

5:05This is another recollections may vary topic, isn't it? So there was definitely a time when most royal women wore tights most of the time. So Queen Elizabeth II liked to wear tights. Royal women followed in her footsteps. She sort of set the tone for everything, didn't she? The flesh-coloured tone. The flesh-coloured tone. When Meghan joined the family, there were a few engagements, official duties where she wore tights. There was one, and maybe this is the thing that she is remembering, where she was slightly caught out and there were headlines about how the tone of her tights didn't match the tone of her legs.

5:42Camilla: That's kind of our fault. Why are we writing this nonsense? Did we write it? I don't remember writing it. People on the internet probably wrote it. But when I looked it up yesterday thinking, what is all this tight stuff about? It did come up with stories about tights. There were also positive stories about tights. There was one in The Sun, which was Markle and Spencer, Meghan's secret love of M &S tights. Very relatable. I mean, as long as she's not wearing tights over her face, you know, looking like she's about to rob somewhere. I think we're fine. There is a thing. The Americans, I remember when I did both royal weddings for the US network NBC, I was told in no uncertain terms as an English girl that they would not tolerate tights on screen.

6:19So you have to be bare legged when you go on US breakfast television.

6:24Camilla: So this is another culture clash. Indeed. And it's not a Californian thing. It's too hot. It's not even a New York thing. It's just they are a tights free zone. And then my second observation would be there's an irony here about her living her authentic self because is appearing in glossy Netflix shows in someone else's kitchen where there are no children's possessions around. There isn't a husband irritatingly looming over what you're cooking, stirring things and telling you to turn down the pot. There isn't any sign of life at all in this kind of picture of Instagrammed perfection that she is suggesting her life now is.

7:02Camilla: Nobody lives like this. Nobody cooks bolognese in white unless they are a psychopath. And therefore, authenticity is a loosely based term when it applies to Megan Sussex. I'm sorry. Well, there are no tights in the Netflix show. There are also, when you look back, quite a lot of engagements where there were no tights here either. So this is quite a specific memory of a couple of occasions. In the Netflix show, she clearly is very happy with where she is. She's found some kind of peace, I think probably genuinely, in pottering around the garden. She clearly loves making her jam. She loves hosting people.

7:43She loves her children. she has found some kind of authenticity in that life whether that translates onto the screen is a totally different story I don't think many people watching it are watching it on the basis that this is her exact life you know there are no children's drawings on the fridge as you say there's no spilt dog food are people watching it for total authenticity or this Americanized Netflix version of authenticity where we talk about authenticity and relatability

8:12Camilla: same as influencers on Instagram exactly there's always a show as they do like I took over this cottage and this is the before and this is the after they're also looking at it to test themselves on whether they like her or loathe her how does she come across what's she doing hats off to the woman she's making a huge amount of money seemingly not doing very much to be fair like she's talking about how difficult it is to be a working mother, you know, try commuting and balancing that with no childcare. But, you know, we're talking about her still, Hannah. Will we ever stop talking about her? I don't know.

8:52And I don't know whether she would want us to, actually, because there was a time in life where she desperately wanted the headlines to stop, understandably, actually. And now she needs people to talk about her again, because she wants people to watch the show and she needs people to buy the jam. So it's this contradiction, isn't it? And the reason she started talking about the tights in the first place was the bloomberg interviewer was asking her whether there's any tension between being the duchess of sussex that being your title and building a whole brand now and being relatable and she said no i'm just being myself and i've been myself this whole way that's a lot of different versions of herself yes over the years she's madonna-like in her ability to reincarnate the thing i found most interesting about this is the tights were only one of two sort of minor complaints she had about the royal family and the other one was how she couldn't be vocal anymore.

9:46The interviewer then asked her, what do you want to say? And I'm paraphrasing, but she said nothing. I choose not to say anything now. No, there's not more she can say is there.

9:58Camilla: Post Oprah, what more has she got left? Post Oprah and the original Netflix, what more is there? I mean, she did that kind of thing where she threatened in that magazine interview, I could say more if I wanted. And there was talk of her producing her own autobiography, you know, with the success of Spare. Why not have Mrs Spare? Mrs Spare. But look, I tell you what, it'll give us stuff to talk about and write about. And on that theme, let's now listen to the rest of the podcast where we talked about all things Royal, including, in the case of Meghan's latest Netflix offering, Lesser Spotted Harry.

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11:46Camilla: Hannah and Vicky, hi. This is lovely, isn't it? Because we do have these chats just on the newsroom floor and we thought, why not record one? Because there's plenty of royal news about. Let's just get straight in and grasp the nettle because you were saying earlier, Vicky, that Harry is in town in September. He's had a horrible time with all of this Senta Bali charity stuff. We'll get into that in just a moment. He's coming in September, which begs the question, is he going to see the king, his brother William, any of the royals? Could there be a thawing of the frosty relations on the cards? And I only say that because I did a bit of reporting about this recently, this idea that they were open to re-engaging.

12:34Camilla: And then we had that summit, didn't we, that was suspiciously photographed of the king's people with Harry's people. Hannah, what do you reckon? It's almost two different questions now, isn't it? Is Harry going to see the king and is Harry going to see Prince William? This one, is he going to see Prince William? I think we can probably agree no. There's no door of communication there at all, as far as I can tell. Might he see the king? Might he talk to the king? yes I think that's fairly likely nowadays there is a bit of dialogue between them I think both sides now see some value in being seen to be in touch and seen to support each other and September if he's coming over in person on his own critically it's quite a good time to do it on his own critically because will Meghan ever return to Britain well he's got the quite convenient excuse that he doesn't feel safe bringing Meghan back oh yes security issue so he's said from the beginning of his security legal vow that he would never bring Megan or the kids back until he's got guaranteed police protection across the board.

13:33Camilla: But I always thought that was a convenient ruse to allow Megan to never come back. I'm not sure there's ever been a suggestion that she wants to come back. No. I've never heard anything out of her own mouth or behind the scenes that suggests she's sort of desperate to come back and waiting for a security case to happen. I think Harry is very keen to come back he's got his well child awards that he's very proud of and he does have a lovely relationship with those children doesn't he so i think this this is almost certainly going to be a solo visit but what would be megan's fear about coming back we did have the booing didn't we at the one of the last events when was that again what was that that was the platinum jubilee service wasn't it so 2022 just before the queen passed away okay so what does she think might happen she comes back and people start throwing eggs in the street what i think she knows that she's quite unpopular in the uk doesn't she so she she's talked a lot about what an awful experience it was working within the royal family and feels like she wants to put it all behind her start again a lot of sources around her often brief that she she's moved forward she's just focused on the future she doesn't want to look back and as far as she's concerned even though it's her husband's family coming back to the UK is looking back and casting back to a time that she didn't particularly enjoy so she only wants to think about her own career and future in the States.

14:57It's fascinating when you listen to her many many hours now we've got podcasts we've got Netflix series we hear quite a lot from Megan really nowadays compared to a couple of years ago the mentions of her time in Britain are almost non-existent it's like they never happen they've been cut from her personal history but other than the occasional sort of allusion to some very oblique unhappy moment in Britain there's almost nothing it's almost like those years don't exist and I don't feel or see any suggestion that she wants to come back and recreate any happy memories here. On that note

15:32Camilla: what was the name of the woman she did the podcast with who was a friend and couldn't stop smiling? The only one, Jamie Kern-Lima. Right, Jamie Kern-Lima. Is she aware, and by the way, is it just my algorithm or did yours work over time, of how much that interview's been lampooned? I almost like to think she doesn't know because it's brutal, isn't it? They're very funny. But there's a lot of them. I just wonder how much self-awareness she has about this. Her aides insist and have always insisted, and even if you question, this is unlikely, they insist that she doesn't read or follow coverage of herself and that her team they all they have insisted it for years she even the ones that are you know even some around her who are more indiscreet absolutely insist no she doesn't she doesn't her team go to her with certain coverage which is obviously the positive stuff that she likes to see and beyond that they they've always vowed that she doesn't follow her i'm calling bs on that simply because i spoke to enough sources at the time they were in the royal family saying they were constantly pouring over their phones.

16:36Camilla: We had conversations, I have had a personal conversation with Prince Harry about reading comments underneath articles, most notably on the Mail Online from memory, although I'm sure he also read the Telegraph up until a point. So she's carrying on with her thing and then Harry's going to come back. Hannah, why are you saying like with such certainty that there is no hope of a brotherly reunion. I mean, I do agree with you entirely, by the way, but just spell that out. I'm not going to say no hope because life is long and these are human beings and things can change over the years and over the decades.

17:09The royal family works in decades, don't they? But as it stands, it's been six years since Prince Harry left the royal family. The level of laundry airing, complaints, indiscretions. He's talked about their childhood. He's talked about what he sees as their terrible parenting, broken dog bowls. They've gone on Oprah to suggest, although I know they deny saying that the royal family were racist, but this very heavy suggestion.

17:41Camilla: They said they were institutionally biased in the end. Unconscious bias. Unconscious bias, that's right. All of that stuff. But all of it has left this bad smell that people in the royal family are racist. They weren't going to let Archie have a title because of some suggestion of what his skin colour would be. All this is happening while the king is ill, Kate's been dealing with her cancer and her chemotherapy. They're just so far down what we call different paths about six years ago. Yeah, but then William isn't... I mean, William is quite a tough nut, isn't he? Because I'm just trying to think about the difference between Charles and William.

18:18Camilla: Charles is the dad. Parents tend to forgive. Yeah. Very different relationship. I mean, what is it that what phase of grief is William in? Because I know he started out being extremely angry, incandescent with rage, not least at the criticisms of his own darling wife. Where are we now? I think one of the main points is that apart from this deeply personal betrayal, there's no trust there. so even if there was the vaguest prospect that William could meet up secretly or have a conversation even on the phone with Harry in California they wouldn't trust he wouldn't trust that it wouldn't get leaked to the press or somebody somehow so that's another quite important point in all of this because Harry and Meghan have spoken so much about personal they've been so indiscreet that they just couldn't risk as far as William's concerned I don't think he could feel like he could risk any kind of conversation with Harry at the moment.

19:16Don't you just, you completely get the instinct, don't you? I understand why the public desperately wants these brothers to get back together, because it's so sad to see these brothers in arms. They lost their mother young, they had this unbreakable bond, and now here we are, it looks like they're probably never going to be in contact again. Certainly not supporting each other as we once would have thought they'd be supporting each other through these long lifetimes in public. I understand why people desperately want this reconciliation. I just think that, and we're guilty of this as everybody else is, of seeing them as a storyline that constantly needs to move on to keep us entertained is quite difficult.

19:57We're ready for the next phase of this, which is some big reunion. Everybody, let's be happy. Let's all go to the Invictus Games in 2027. We photograph together. Let's bring the Sussex children over. We'll have the king here. Do you mind?

20:09Camilla: This is something I once wrote. You're suggesting that my fabulous piece, suggesting a 2027 Invictus Union, might not be true. I think it could well be true, but I think we want it to happen. But I think you need to take a step back and see William. There are two sides to William here. There's William as a brother. All of this is deeply personal. You can imagine it being replicated in any family on a different level. The other side of it, which makes it very complicated, is that he is a man that represents this institution. So he's going to be king. He's got a job to do. And I think those around him, as you were saying earlier, in the early days, he was so upset about this situation that every time you let Harry in a little bit or you give him another chance, you feel let down and hurt all over again when the next book happens or the next interview happens.

21:04The weirdest thing about Spare, by the way,

21:05Camilla: That dog bowl incident is a perfect illustration of how much William loves his brother. This is what's weird. Because he wanted to get through to him. Yeah, he's like grabbing him by his collar, basically saying to him, don't leave me. You know, you're going off with Meghan. We're being left behind. This is breaking up our brotherly bond. And then there's the kind of hilarious addition. I mean, it's not hilarious, sorry. I mean, it's horrible for them, but like they have this fight and then William turns around and says, don't tell Megan. You know, I just read it as William is like physically trying to hold on to this bloke.

21:45It's sad. And, you know, he's had a lot of things on his plate in the last couple of years. He's got this, not, I was going to say prospect, but certainty that he's going to be king at some point. That has become very focused because the king has been unwell. Kate has been unwell I think it is very difficult to have the Harry problem or the Harry question constantly locking at your door so there is a sense in which I would imagine he has had to just compartmentalise a little bit just to get through what he's called the most brutal year of his life

22:22Camilla: But what's the King's people doing, the King's men and women doing meeting with Team Sussex then? Well, I think there's just a genuine desire. I think it probably came from the Sussexes side in terms of that push to open a door and change the status quo. And I think we know how he's spoken himself about how he's desperate to have his family back. He wants a reconciliation. He said all this quite recently. He wants things to change. He's been quite open about that. And in order for that to happen on a personal level, I think there's an element of having to do it on a professional level as well.

22:58so there's little things like there's often criticism of harry doing something when the king's doing something in the uk or william's doing something in the uk and the diaries are clashing but the sussex team always say well we don't know what they're doing they don't know what we're doing there's no communication so part of this meeting the idea of this meeting was to try and it's little baby steps to some kind of relationship professional relationship where they're sharing diaries for example so they don't have these clashes in the future these little steps but Harry's team wouldn't have met the Buckingham Palace team without Harry's say-so.

23:33Camilla: No. So Harry wants it. They want it. They want things to start changing. Onto the Centibali thing briefly. I mean somebody phoned me in the midst of the whole thing and this is the row that has occurred between the CEO and Prince Harry and indeed other trustees including Prince Ciso who he set up the charity with in memory of both of their mothers. He's the prince of Lesotho. Somebody phoned me and said, you know, you cannot underestimate just how devastated Harry is by all this. He feels blindsided. This was his baby. It's hugely damaging, of course, reputationally, because the one thing Harry had was that he was a brilliant charitable ambassador.

24:14Camilla: We've seen that with Invictus. We know how good he is with these kids. We've all seen it with our own eyes. And now even that kind of thing that he had has been broken. Yeah, it's sad, isn't it? This is the final nail in the coffin for his relationship with Sinterbali. He's had to walk away and accept that he has no influence or control at the charity anymore. And it was his baby before his babies. It was named for his mother. It was this scene of so many happy, important visits in his 20s. I can completely understand why people are telling you that he's devastated by it. I mean, people are blaming Meghan for this, aren't they?

24:52Camilla: Because of this well-documented, it-was-on-video clash. between Meghan and the CEO, Sophie Chanduca. They're at this polo match. They're both wearing white. Sophie's there. I mean, she's a charitable boss, a respectable professional woman. Meghan's sort of moving her aside in the photo. Then she starts saying she doesn't want to be seen as an extension of the Sussex PR machine, which suggests there's something cynical about them promoting Centre Barley in the first place. Well, they asked her, didn't they? Harry's team got in touch with her after that event when it attracted some negative publicity and asked her if she would put out a statement defending Megan and saying this isn't how it looked, she wasn't pushing me around.

25:30And then she's given this interview to the Financial Times where she said, Centre Barley's not part of the Sussex PR machine, that's not how we operate. So that immediately got her back up, I think, and you can probably trace back the beginning of this row to that point. And she was furious that they were trying to drag her into their personal PR machine.

25:51Camilla: Do we overstate Meghan's role in everything? I think we do in this one. I think there are much deeper problems at Centre Barley than that one incident. You're right to say it's totally emblematic of what went wrong, isn't it? But there clearly are big governance issues along the way with this charity. Part of it seems to stem from their desire to make the leadership much more localised, wasn't it? They wanted to slightly move away from it just being the Prince Harry show. He was the one that did the fundraising and give a lot more power to sort of community on community level. But it's a very painful and very, very public fallout.

26:30That's one of the things they were criticised for is having this this big fallout of the row via the pages of the press. I mean, none of them came out looking good, did they? Everybody involved in that whole debacle. There was just mudslinging from all sides. everybody, sources talking off the record, on the record, Harry's claims, her claims, the trustees, people talking behind the scenes, they all just slagged each other off in public and it was just awful and they were rightly criticised for it.

26:56Camilla: Right, let's link this to another story that's been massive recently and that is Andrew Lowney's book about the Yorks. We had Mr Lowney in the Daily Tea. The episode has gone viral. I mean, half a million people have watched it. He doesn't hold back. He details how many sources he spoke to for it. We've had subsequent stories about how the Duke and Duchess of York, or at least Sarah Ferguson, had a meeting with him, then tried to block some of the content. Claims being made about Melania Trump being introduced to Trump by Jeffrey Epstein, which he's had to take out of the book, which is controversial in itself.

27:32Camilla: I mean, my goodness me, the Yorks have been completely roasted in this tome. Any news from Royal Lodge Windsor right now where presumably tin hats are on? You'd think curtains are closed, the films are on. They're in Balmoral I think now. They are at Balmoral, the King. Are they? Oh so the King and Andrew's relationship remains okay? Well I think it remains unchanged. The royal family at least in public are rather good at pretending books don't exist aren't they? Yes. They're very good at saying we don't, their standard response to everything is we don't respond to royal biographies. And what of the row between Andrew and Harry that Lowney put in the book so they came to fisticuffs about something?

28:13That was quite interesting wasn't it? So Lowney claimed they had a proper physical fight and Harry was quite quickly out of the blocks with an on-the-record statement from his spokesperson saying this never happened which is relatively unusual in the royal sphere. What was the row meant to be about? Well it was hugely fudged actually wasn't it? There was something in 2013 and then there was a second thing where he made some comments about Meghan which aren't quite specified. Yes. And they've denied the whole thing haven't they? I think they quite carefully denied that he made the comments to Harry which I suppose doesn't totally rule out that he made them at some point and it got back to Harry.

28:48Camilla: Yeah I mean lots of comments were made we were speaking to Grant Harreld on the podcast last week you can listen to that we'll link it in the show notes as we will the Andrew Lowney one actually as we're in this royal merry-go-round and Grant Harreld reported that the Duke of Edinburgh upon leaving St George's Chapel at Windsor Castle following Harry and Meghan's wedding in 2018 turned to the late Queen and said, thank F that's over. So lots of things are said and done. Do you think that was about the preacher though? Could have been Bishop Currie. He was very lively. And we've got the brilliant videos of Kate looking to the side trying not to laugh.

29:24Camilla: William not laugh. It was quite fun. But I ask about Andrew and indeed Royal Lodge and relationships with the King. It sounds to me, by the way, that Andrew and Sarah aren't moving out of Royal Lodge, Windsor, regardless of reports of breakdowns in relationships with brothers and all this nonsense because they've gone nowhere. No, you couldn't get them out with a grenade at this point. No. And everybody has tried. It's called the Siege of Royal Lodge. They've got this long-term lease and it's watertight, isn't it? Exactly. There's not much they can do. Right. Well, I ask about that because there's been some property developments at Windsor.

29:59Camilla: so currently the Waleses are living in Adelaide Cottage which is a bit pokey when you're a future king and queen by royal standards four bedrooms but I remember being told look they're doing that because they want to have a normal life and they want to bring up the children without sort of people producing cornflakes on silver platters and all that nonsense and I thought that's very admirable where are they meant to be moving to Forest Lodge it's called it's eight bedrooms it's quite a lot bigger by royal standards it remains tiny if you think Buckingham Palace has got 775 rooms. I hadn't ever heard of this forest house.

30:36It's a wild card, isn't it? I think we all were told or absorbed over the years that the next move would be into Windsor Castle at some point ready for the big job. Things have definitely changed in the last couple of years and I don't know about you guys, but I had a really visceral reaction to when they confirmed this news and they said it was partly because they've just had a really rotten time the last few years. They've had some happy times in Adelaide Cottage but they've also got some really unhappy memories there and I think anybody who's had any kind of personal trauma in their lives can completely identify with this idea that you know are you looking at that room and thinking that's where I told my children I've got cancer.

31:22Are you thinking here's where William sat and he wondered whether he was going to have to bring his children up without a mother. They've been very clear, the people around them, that this is part of the reason why they want to move, as well as growing into a slightly more royal-sized house, as well as keeping the children away from these corridors and formality. It's a Middleton upbringing, isn't it, rather than a royal upbringing. That's exactly what they want, isn't it? So even though it's bigger, Forest Lodge, they're not going to have any staff. It's still going to be very much the family unit, which is so important.

31:53They've still got Maria Borrello.

31:55Camilla: No, not living in. Not living. Oh, she doesn't live in. She doesn't. She's never lived at Adelaide Cottage. There's no space for her. And she's not going to live at Forest Lodge. And what about the Italian housekeeper whose name escapes me? She doesn't live in. They don't have any living staff. And they're insistent that that will continue. So they really, like you say, they want to emulate this happy family unit that the Middletons had. And they can do that at Forest Lodge. They've got a bit more space, but they're very much just, it's just the five of them. Because they've got important decisions to make.

32:23Camilla: I always am able to track Prince George's life because I was pregnant at the same time to remember I was like a roly-poly at Paddington at St Mary's as we waited outside the lindo wing a copper actually get me a chair who's going into labour first who's going into labour first and then my daughter was born on August the 26th and he's a July baby so it was a month later so I can always track it and he's obviously coming up for 13 next year they've got to decide on schooling will he go to Eton what's your instinct on that by the way I know we're not meant to discuss it. I think he'll go to Eton.

32:54Camilla: Do you? Well, staying in Windsor makes it much more likely, doesn't it? Because she went to Marlborough College and she had a bad experience at her previous girls school. But Charlotte can't go to Eton, so Charlotte could potentially go to Marlborough. I just felt with the Middleton thing, they're such close siblings that she would want them all in mix so they could all go to school together. I agree. I think it's going to be a much more complicated decision for them than it was last generation. You're inevitably going to send your royal sons to Eton a generation ago and they've clearly thought about it very very carefully this time they've been touring sort of umpteen schools as far as I can gather yeah I think there would definitely be an instinct to keep the three children together I wondered at a point how boarding school fitted in with their mental health they're wanting to be at home Kate's very deep you know research and understanding about childhood development does all of this mean they want them to be at home more but somebody did explain it to me which I believed actually is that both Kate and William have very happy memories of school and I agree with you we're not going to have debates like the Queen had with where to educate Prince Charles who was then known and the Queen mother wanted him closer to home and instead he's sent to Gordonstone and he doesn't really like it there and he's bullied and the husband gets to say I reckon this is something that Kate will eventually I think she will boss this decision yeah um is she okay i mean i saw her at i said i'm name dropping listen to me i went to the men's wimbledon final saw them at a distance and you know she the warmth towards that woman from the crowd it was really quite something you know she arrives and then when they're giving out the trophy somebody shouts i love you kate and then to make up for it somebody else shouted i love you william which he found funny but she seemed in good health i mean she's back on the scene a bit she was doing some charity work last week or the week before she pops up a bit more occasionally doesn't she and she's focusing very much on her newfound love of nature with her videos the importance of being in nature that she's discovered since while she's been recovering from cancer and how important it is so a lot of her work is now directed to that field also the video the video the gladiator scene of her putting her hands through the crops the love for William I mean, do you remember when that video came out?

35:14Camilla: We all gathered around the computer going, what is going on here? This couple that never did any public displays of affection. I remember a rare photograph at the Olympics when they're hugging and the photographers went completely bonkers because they'd actually touched each other in public. And there we have them cavorting around on the ground. I mean, this horrific experience appears to have bonded them as a couple and as a family extraordinarily. Really? I mean, it would, wouldn't it? It would. And it's changed the way she's working as well. I think they're still being very careful with her return to work.

35:48There's no advance notice particularly of work she's going to be doing. So they plan things or they announce things a little bit closer to the time than they might have done to make sure she's feeling up to it. There's a bit more pacing, a bit more understanding of when she can't do things necessarily or can't stay as long. The state visit of Trump will be really interesting, whether she does the entire thing in September. They'll be involved, right? Closely involved. They must be involved.

36:15Camilla: Is it a bells and whistles one in September? Yes, full state visit. So white tie banquets and all sorts. Trump staying at Windsor. Melania. Melania and Kate. God to be a fly on the wall. Melania, Kate and Camilla in a convo. What a trio. Wow. Just discussing their husbands. How fascinating would that be? What's it like to live with Donald Trump and Alain Fell? OK, so that's coming up in September. They haven't gone on a royal tour in Yonks, again, understandably. Is there any notion of foreign travel on the horizon? I can't, certainly not for William and Kate going on tour together. It's so far in the future, I can't even begin.

36:56They did their little trip to the Isle of Mal. They're small ones, don't they? Small and short, which fits in with the whole family life thing, doesn't it? We count Scotland as a foreign visit. No, we don't count it as a foreign visit, but it was an overnight visit away from home, which was a tiny step back towards that. Prince William's going to Brazil for his Earthshot Prize, of course, in November. So that will be quite a big tour for him. It's halfway through the Earthshot Prize decade. So there'll be quite a lot of press over that. She won't be going. She has talked about how she'd like to take the children to Australia.

37:29Oh, we'd love that. It would be lovely, wouldn't it? Do you remember George and his wombat? Can't forget it.

37:35Camilla: George in Australia, circa when? 2014, it must have been, because he was born in 2013. He was nine months or so. That was great fun. Their last joint proper tour was the Caribbean in March 22. So although she's been fostering first, which didn't go down very well. Which didn't go down very well, but they haven't done a tour since. I know, but that was at the height of sort of, we must apologise for our colonial past. I don't think they'll have those issues again, arguably. Speaking of the Isle of Mull, I tell you who loves to be on the Scottish Isles, preferably on her yacht, and that's Princess Anne.

38:07Camilla: And I only mention her because she turns 75 and you shadowed her. How is the Princess Royal? Well, what a woman. What a woman. Where to start? What a trooper. She is so interesting to watch in action because she's just Princess Anne, isn't she? she's so far removed from this modern generation of royals who go and ask people about their feelings and do their social media videos she does the same thing over and over and over and over again year in year out decade in decade out everybody loves her when I was writing this birthday profile I just had to stop taking notes because everybody said exactly the same thing it was all lovely she's so hard working she reads her brief she is interested in everything somebody said a really quite telling nice thing that they it was somebody from save the children it's been her longest patronage of 50 years that she just seems to consider herself as a colleague um so she'll go to their meetings completely prepared she'll say we did this in the 80s why don't we try that she'll go off to mozambique and fix a loo with a water jug she's not going to pull out trips even if there's bubonic plague yeah she's just a very hardy sort of last of an older generation type isn't she she cuts the ribbons and there's the plaques packs the engagements in but you almost always apart from things like this when with no media no she doesn't actually like she doesn't like but that's interesting none of them do i did one job with her a year or so ago at commonwealth war graves and i thought it was interesting because she's so not used to having media there she operates in a slightly different way it's like because she doesn't have to worry about cameras and journalists listening.

39:51So it just felt really natural and genuine. And with the other Royal visits, there's always one eye on who's listening and who's saying where are the cameras. And there's none of that. So it feels a lot more natural in a way.

40:03Camilla: And she needs to get a hat. I mean, she probably has got a hat. But I mentioned she needs a new hat because her son, Peter Phillips, has got engaged to a very nice girl, by all accounts. A nurse. NHS nurse. And when do we think that's happening? They haven't said, have they? Although I would imagine next summer, do you think? Oh, my God. I thought we had got over the era of royal weddings for a while, but clearly not. Will Harry come? Will he be invited? Will Harry be? That is such a good question, Nikki. Well, can you imagine? And the dynamic, the family dynamics. It's Peter's cousin. So Peter's the oldest grandchild, so he's like the one who has to take control.

40:41Camilla: Remember, he was the peacemaker. He was in the middle of Harry and William at the Duke of Edinburgh's funeral. Do you remember walking? he was the one in position between them. And presumably he's, well, I know he and Zara are very, very close to William because I always got the impression that Harry was much closer to Eugenie because they're of the same age. I mean, you tend to gravitate towards the cousins that are your age. And I know as well that Zara and her husband, Mike Tindall, who, let's be honest, is a no-nonsense Yorkshireman, may have, how can I put this diplomatically? You can't, just say it.

41:16Camilla: I can't. I'm not sure they necessarily saw eye to eye with Meghan. I don't know how much respect they had for Harry's behaviour in recent months and years, let's put it that way, and Princess Anne, who, let's be honest, probably didn't have all that much time for the histrionics of Oprah while her father was still in hospital and her mother was entering her 95th year, was it, at the time? Although she was the one who looked after Prince Harry when he arrived at Balmoral. Yes. The Queen died, wasn't she? Yes, that's why she's intrigued. She was the only one, wasn't she? Peter can't really not invite his cousin.

41:53Camilla: He's got to invite him, hasn't he? Ooh. Do you think we'll be invited to that wedding? The seating plan. It won't be a big media shebang, will it? Second marriage. I doubt it. Another hello, yes. His first wife, Autumn Kelly, and he famously sold their wedding to hello without necessarily telling everybody at the palace. I remember that fallout as well. Well, maybe they told Granny and got her permission, but the press office appeared to be blindsided at the time, I remember. I'd be quite surprised if it was a full-blown royal wedding, wouldn't you? Because that comes with a lot of costs. It comes with security and I don't know whether...

42:29And also, by keeping it small and tight and keeping the media out, that might help with the Harry Williams situation.

42:36Camilla: I tell you where they could host the wedding, Buckingham Palace. Nothing else is going on there. Let's finish with the debate over why. Get the build it out. Right. I mean, I don't know about you, but if I had the choice of a number of different properties in central London, I mean, I think Kensington Palace would have huge appeal, but it's a bit out of the way. Clarence House is nice, a bit small. St James's Palace, a bit musty. Buckingham Palace, as you said, Hannah, over 700 rooms to spread your stuff around. OK, lots of cupboards, lots of beds, some four-poster. nobody wants to live there no and nobody's ever wanted to live there but finally what we're spending they're spending we're spending whoever's spending because I was there recently again that's my third little name drop I was there for lunch quite recently and I was being shown things that had been renovated and I did privately think well what's it all for if no one's going to use this place as their London residence but it's still the monarchy HQ as they keep describing isn't it So it's still when anyone thinks of the royal family, they think of Buckingham Palace.

43:42So even though nobody's living there, it can still be the base and their office space and where they hold the receptions and the state banquets and where the thrones are.

43:52Camilla: But they need to really push that. I mean, there was so much dialogue around a decade ago about it becoming the people's palace. You know, it's Paddington's palace. It's the palace that you parachute from for the Olympics and all the rest of it. and in that regard you've really got to open the whole lot up. Now over the course of the last 50 to 100 years the complexion of the people that visit the palace now has changed. It used to have to be royalty, aristocracy or some kind of VIP to get through the gates. Now it's open to institutions like the Caravan Club and you've got wonderful garden parties going on where a whole host of people from all over all four corners of the UK come and descend, have cucumber sandwiches and it's all fantastic.

44:34Camilla: They even invite reprobates in like us, right? Very, very occasionally. Keep us massively at arm's length. But that palette, I'm surprised there hasn't been more negative publicity about just how many properties the king has and how many of them are empty. Yes, and that is going to grow. I think that criticism will grow. As the royal family gets smaller, the number of properties seems sillier and sillier. Why doesn't he want to live there? Nobody has ever really wanted to live at Buckingham Palace. And the late Queen didn't really want to live there, did she? She had to be kind of nudged into it, I think.

45:08Yeah, Prince Philip was very against uprooting their young family from Clarence House to go to Buckingham Palace. It's cold, it's got mice. We know from Obama's memoir, don't we, that they saw a mouse and he had to keep it a secret from Michelle. Yeah. This is why they're doing this refurbishment, to make it safe and secure and habitable. What we're seeing now is this transition from it being a home into an office space. Yes. with that you lose quite a lot of the magic of it I think because if you when you're when you're a child and you come to London there's some kind of magic in it's the royal standard flying and Buckingham Palace are you going to see the late queen sort of peeking out behind the curtains that brings with it a lot of the tourism and a lot of the things that bring people to London and especially bring people to the palace is this idea that you might bump into the king if we're saying that's almost certainly not going to happen because whoever the monarch is at the time is going to pop in for a few meetings and to sign their papers it definitely changes how the public is going to see it and so they need to manage this transition i mean externally becomes a kind

46:14Camilla: of focal point for any british celebration doesn't it we recently saw the women winning the euros where does the open top bus go it comes down the mall it goes to the palace they want the backdrop of the palace so in that regard yeah we'll be going to concerts there no doubt around the queen Victoria Memorial and all the rest of it Fly Pass, Trooping the Colour The balcony moment, you've got the garden parties Which they'll still do though, won't they? They'll still do And let's not forget, nobody's lived at Buckingham Palace since When did the Queen move out for lockdown? 2019? Pre-Covid Pre-Covid sometime So it's been five or six years And it still functions quite well Even though it's closed for refurbishments It's still very much the face of the monarchy Like you say, with the lionesses and various things that happen there, receptions and things.

47:01I mean, if Prince Andrew gets turfed out of Royal Lodge... I think he could have a spare room. I don't know. Surely he might try and put it on Airbnb. If you're asking the public to spend£369 million on refurbishing it, you need to show that you're using it for something, is my view. Open the doors. They have to do something different, won't they?

47:22Camilla: Open the doors. Hannah, Vicky, what a pleasant chat this has been as we have brought our newsroom conversations to life on the Daily Tea for that Right Royal Roundup. Thank you very much, both of you. We'll be back tomorrow, 5pm.

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