Is the ‘establishment’ out to destroy Reform?

0:02The Telegraph.

0:31And grab a$150 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. Hot flashes. Rage crying. Forgetting words mid-sentence. Yeah, we know. Menopause is a lot. MidiHealth gets it. That's why Midi offers virtual healthcare specially tailored to women's needs. Built for women, by women. Every symptom, every stage, every question. Visit joinmidi.com to get started today. That's joinmidi.com. Individual results and coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Is the establishment determined to destroy reform? An undercover sting has exposed the appalling views of some of its candidates.

1:18But why aren't other parties under such close scrutiny? And doesn't the scandal simply reflect how society has been turned upside down by mass migration? Why aren't I seeing any stings on the Green Party? Why aren't... Because presumably the people who are on the ground in the Green Party, I mean, sometimes they're very obvious about it, there's clearly a very strong strain, for instance, of anti-Semitism. Why doesn't Channel 4 and ITV go undercover with them and find out just how much some of the people on the ground actually hate Jews? Why don't we go and infiltrate some mosques? Camilla, you are wearing black.

1:51I've just hot-footed it from an absolutely touching memorial service at St Bridesfleet Street, the journalist church for my old editor and mentor and very close friend, Martin Townsend. And the choir there is so good. So they did the Beach Boys. They did Ray Davies, Thank You for the Days. And they did I've Got All the Time in the World, you know, the James Bond, beautiful theme. Yes, Louis Armstrong. Choral, chorally. It was a joy and I was sitting behind them. So it was lovely, but I rushed it. What's going on with your glasses? They're blue. I don't know whose they are. I found them in my bedside drawer.

2:25Because I left my nice tortoiseshell specks on the train. And if anyone finds them, let me know. And so I had to replace them. And I just went through all... I've got like a thousand pairs of glasses in my drawer. Well, they must be yours. Do you not remember buying them? I don't know. I don't remember buying them. Imagine if they were somebody else's and they're in your bedside drawer. I know. How did they get there? Which is interesting in itself. How did they get there? Imagine if they are somebody else's, but they also fit your prescription perfectly. That seems unlikely to me. It's a mystery, isn't it?

2:51But I believe there are gnomes who steal socks and glasses. Yes. And pens. The same gnomes. Socks and glasses and pens. The same gnomes come to my house and steal socks out of my tumble dryer. There is a crow that picks on me. Anyway, we need to discuss a very serious subject. Yes. In September 2024, the reform leader, Nigel Farage, promised to professionalise his party. And he would do that by beefing up the vetting process for candidates. quote, we don't want extremists, we don't want bigots, we don't want people who think that way because we represent the silent, decent majority of this country.

3:30Now, ITV has done an undercover report using secret filming in which they spoke to reform activists and officials and revealed them to be using the most appalling and offensive language, describing Muslims as parasites, describing black children as animals. One person who was recorded, a reform councillor from South London, claimed that King Charles was a secret Muslim because a prayer mat had been spotted in the palace and suggested that he ought to be decapitated. A senior reform councillor from Solihal said of Asian people dragged them out their homes, stick them on planes and F them off to Pakistan.

4:14arm. And there's also some misogyny too. One male councillor said of a female reform candidate, if she was my daughter, it would be bath night on a Thursday, and that he would sexually assault another female candidate if he was given the chance to hug her. I watched it while I was on the treadmill. And I thought, well, last time I watched a reforms thing, I was on a treadmill as well. And that was the Channel 4 dispatches expose of the fake American donor. I watched this. I found it both staggering and completely unsurprising. I am not in any way, shape or form advocating any of the language used here.

5:00I think that you had a demonstration of somebody infiltrating not just the reform sort of grassroots network, but the conversations that take place in cars and in pubs over pints, which might not be representative of the party as a whole. I think we can accept that these individuals exist in all political movements. They're just arguing different things. And I was watching it thinking, OK, this is all well and good. I don't like the language they're using. I can understand some of the sentiments they're expressing. I can understand why they're angry at the changing faces they perceive it of their country.

5:38The way they've expressed their self is wrong. And I've always made this argument, by the way, in political discourse. Just be polite and inoffensive. Make a cogent point. I'll use a classic example on this. Boris Johnson's argument about the burqa. I don't like the burqa. Oh, this is when he said it was like a letterbox. That's when he lost the argument because he made it offensive and impolite. He could have had a perfectly cogent argument about the burqa, the oppressive nature of that outfit, what it actually means for the women wearing it without saying letterboxes. We can have a completely sane and rational argument about whether migration to this country has gone too far, legal and illegal.

6:24Let's not forget as well, this is the week that it was revealed that the surname Khan will overtake Smith, I think, by next year. Now, we might want to ask ourselves how people in Pakistan would feel if Smith overtook Khan. There's nothing wrong with questioning that. What's happening here? Have we had too much of a so-called good thing without using horrendous language and tropes in the same way that you and I can have some bants as a woman and a man without you insulting me and being offensive about my gender? But there is something at the heart of this which seems to me to be completely imbalanced.

7:00And it's this as I was watching it, thinking to myself, this is the second sting I've seen. Why aren't I seeing any stings on the Green Party? Because presumably the people who are on the ground in the Green Party, I mean, sometimes they're very obvious about it. There's clearly a very strong strain, for instance, of anti-Semitism. Why doesn't Channel 4 and ITV go undercover with them and find out just how much some of the people on the ground actually hate Jews? Why don't we go and infiltrate some mosques? We've had a bit of expose this week about imams literally preaching that it's a good idea for their congregation, if male, to beat up their wives.

7:37There's nothing wrong with it. Don't leave any bruises. Why can't we have a bit more on that? Why is it always reform? Because they can't be the only party with some wrong-uns in there, can they, Tim? Or am I being unreasonable? reasonable? Well, our producer has very kindly collected examples of candidates in other parties who have done wrong. And the list runs to several pages, by the way. So I can't read them all out. But just to give random examples, the Conservative Party. During the 2024 campaign, the Conservatives were forced to withdraw support from several candidates due to historical social media comments containing anti-Semitic or Islamophobic tropes, as well as the election date betting scandal.

8:22The Labour Party, I mean, gosh, where to begin? The example here of the Rochdale by-election of 2024. Labour was forced to suspend its candidate, Azhar Ali, and withdraw official backing just weeks before the vote after recordings surfaced of him making conspiracy-driven anti-Semitic comments about Israel and the October 7th attacks. Lib Dems, again, I'm just plucking a random example out here, let's go with Lib Dem Pat Marsh, the former Harrogate mayor. The senior local politician was suspended and subsequently expelled from the party following a series of offensive posts on social media regarding the Israel-Gaza conflict, leading to a criminal trial for stirring up racial hatred.

9:01Now, when I watched it on the 10 o 'clock ITV news, I thought my initial reaction was, that's just how people talk i'm really sorry but that's just what people say i don't know if they use such aggressive language and i don't think they do such candid terms they do well not in our circles but what you're saying in the pub no but hey i'm a middle class person with a phd i don't i but i'm talking here about i'm talking about people down the pub and this includes the the misogyny that everyone is. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've got two older brothers. I am not. Well, there you go. I would remind you. I'm not saying, by the way, my brothers are sexist.

9:47But we know men speak about women and women speak about men, frankly. Have you seen what Russell Brand is on trial for? Yes. And I won't make any further comment for legal reasons. So anyone who's... So when they finish the segment, Tom Bradbury, the presenter, who comments at least as much editorially on news stories as GB News does. Yes. And no one cares. That's right. Again, all the attention is on the supposed bias of GB News. At the end of this recording, Bradbury literally put his head in his hands and went, oh my God. Yeah, I know. It's such editorialising. But we're supposed to pretend that we live in a world in which people don't speak like this.

10:25And when secret cameras go out and catch people doing it, it's akin to the Politburo in the late Soviet Union discovering to its horror that the citizens think socialism is nonsense. Yes. Likewise, out there in the real world, vast majority of people have passed a verdict on mass migration. It's not nice. It's pretty ugly when you hear it. But it's got even uglier precisely because popular opinion on this subject has been suppressed. When people feel they don't have someone in public life who articulates for them how they feel, when they feel their own views are being pushed down, when you can't even say something pretty lighthearted like a burka looks like a letterbox.

11:14Honestly, that really mattered? You can't even say that? Well, I'm saying I want to make that point just to come in on that. I agree on one hand because I was thinking last night about things that had been cancelled. Why did comedians ever accept their comedy being cancelled because it's just a joke? So I'm very much in the kind of Ricky Gervaisian avenue there. I'm merely saying that in Johnson's case, it was so unfortunate because he was making an argument for female empowerment. And it got lost because of that description. And I'm trying to make the point that if you want to make very sane and cogent arguments from whatever position you come from, right, left, whatever, about mass migration.

11:55I'm not saying, by the way, that people should edit themselves and not say I'm worried about there being far too many. Let me be specific at what I mean here then. What I'm saying is I believe that right now you could take a camcorder hidden inside a sports bag into any pub in Britain and you could find people talking like that. Yes. But when the middle class establishment says to someone who said a burqa looks a bit like a letterbox, when they try and destroy their public career over that. And say we can have no debate about burqas. The gulf between the middle class faux horror at what Boris Johnson said and what people are actually saying in pubs is so wide that it makes the establishment, us, whatever, I don't think I am, but it makes us look ridiculous.

12:45Yes. That we won't even tolerate a joke about letterboxes. No, I get that. But also, by the way, do we seriously think that there is an anti-white bantz within communities of colour? Yes. Do we seriously think... It's just we can't understand them because they're in a different language. Well, possibly. Or do we seriously think that there isn't anti-Semitism being expressed in some Muslim communities? And this is my other point. It needs to be noted also, perhaps on the negative side for reform, that some of what they were saying reflects what the leadership says. Actually, when you've got Robert Jenrick saying, implying that you can use military force against people in the channel.

13:25He wasn't exactly saying that. He was saying that. When you've got Suella Brave, I know, we can all have an argument. We can all discuss. Well, only because I had his people on to me saying, well, you've misrepresented us. I said, well, maybe he should watch what he's actually said so he's not misconstrued because he can't be right and we all be wrong. Okay, but you've got Suella Braveman saying English is an ethnicity and I'm not English. You've got people who are proxies for the party saying Kemi Badenok cannot be fully English because she's Nigerian and you can't trust her with the country because she's an anchor baby.

13:58So in other words, they are picking up on where the discourse is. And I'm telling you that if Boris wrote the letterbox column today, no one would make any fuss. Yeah, probably not. Because the conversation has completely moved on and the leadership has moved with it. But all of this is happening because of mass migration. I know it sounds like I'm blaming the victim here. And to repeat, nothing that was said was acceptable, morally or in terms of taste. But if you change the demographics of a country so suddenly and radically overnight, You inject into it an ethnic self-awareness that wasn't there before.

14:38And people who didn't previously think about am I English or not suddenly feel forced to discuss it because they can see people around them who plainly are not English or are not trying to be English. And it's not just reform that has this issue. The Conservative Party in general elections runs candidates who take India's side on the Kashmir issue. Why? What the hell has that got to do with us? Labour has in the past had candidates who are violently against Israel. Why? Nothing to do with us. The Green Party has passed a motion saying Zionism is racism. Why? Nothing to do with us. My point is the ugly racist politics that we now have is downstream from mass migration.

15:28So to all the middle class liberals who watch these people saying these things in pubs and go, I just can't believe that what has happened to my country? Where has our decency and our standards gone? It is your fault because you have for 20 years pursued a policy of importing millions of people. And I have said throughout my public career, including when on the left, if you have any understanding of human nature or human history, if you just look within my lifetime at the Balkans or Rwanda, you can see that different people who perceive themselves to be different struggle to live next door to each other peacefully.

16:11Well, even if it isn't that, to lean into David Davis's point earlier in the week, sometimes it's just economic resentment because statistics come forward as follows. And this is this outpouring of extraordinary data by the Centre for Social Justice report, which had earlier found the 3 ,000 parts of the UK where more than half the population is on benefits. The headline yesterday was four in five jobs created since 2010, I believe, have gone to foreign workers. How do you think that makes the British feel? And then we had another statistic today suggesting that we're paying£23 billion to foreigners in benefits and other payments.

16:55So then you're wondering, half the time, it's not got anything necessarily to do with colour of skin or religion. it's got to do with economically are you harming me because I was born here and I think we can sympathise with that and competition over public services second of all by the way what happened in the past particularly because of the cover up over the rape gangs and just a general sort of air that Islam was the only religion that couldn't be properly discussed without people being issued with fatwas and things that we had an absolute suppression of perfectly legitimate discourse about whether some people who had come to this country that weren't embracing British values should be allowed to stay.

17:40So that's like a separate stream to this. And had it not have been the case that when anyone said anything along the lines of, I'm not sure we should be supporting cousin marriage and I'm not sure that we should be supporting a situation where in the back of mosques somewhere people are practising Sharia law and I'm not sure if girls should be wearing hijabs age seven in the UK. People started pointing and saying, you're an Islamophobe, you're a racist and a bigot. Don't then be surprised when some years later, all of this comes home to roost and people are building up really strong resentments because they haven't been able to have a say for 20 years.

18:16I know, I know. Look, the comments by readers are very interesting. Liam Oliveira writes, I eagerly await ITV's Undercover, A Year in Labour, and Undercover, A Year with the Greens. I assume such shows are scheduled. Yes. Andrew Brimson questions the methods. It's appalling, of course. However, please go and undercover film mosques or Muslim meetings debating the UK. I very much doubt reform councillors are alone in their tasteless comments. The country is becoming more divided. The government have mismanaged multiculturalism and created division where it didn't exist before. Charlotte Northbrook's also interesting.

18:54It's perfectly OK for Angela Rayner to openly talk about Tory scum. Class war is OK, but not race. Both are abhorrent. I mean, that's the other thing, isn't it? You know, what is said, for instance, by the left at different fringe meetings simply about the right. And the other example, by the way, when you were listing the different things that have happened that may have caused people to wonder what country they're in from a female standpoint is. Men are women and women are men. Yes. Women can have penises and men can grow cervixes. Yes. It's just a complete insult to anybody female or anyone, frankly, with half a brain or anyone with any biological knowledge.

19:33And yet that's rammed down our front. And then you're wondering why people are so unhappy and feel unrepresented. And by the way, we've got a PM on top now who thinks that we can just ride roughshod over the Brexit vote because everybody was influenced by Russian bots. Reform says the people filmed by ITV are all under investigation and have already either resigned or been suspended. And you mentioned, Camilla, earlier, the investigation into alleged American donors, which is Dan Dukes and James Orr. A party internal investigation has cleared them, but the police are still looking into it. I am convinced that everyone I know in 10 years time will either be in government or in prison.

20:09Yes. It feels like it's going that way. To include me in that. I hope I'm in neither. I hope I'm just in this newsroom. But my final thought on this would be, I think for a long time, we have lived under an ideology of multiculturalism. And as often happens with ideologies, eventually they just depart from reality. It's not working anymore. And people can physically see it's not working and it's making them really unhappy. And what often happens is the ideology doubles down. and what it starts to say is the problem is not the material conditions the problem is people's perception of them so the real issue is not the lack of integration the terrorism the effect upon wages the rise of racism those are not the real issues the real issue is the far right and russia the real issue is the thing which is cantering the ideology and it seems to me that's what's going on here.

21:05And Dominic Cummings said some time ago, the establishment will do everything it needs to do to destroy reform. Yes. I think that's probably correct. But having said all of this, reform almost hands a weapon to its opponents by running people such as this. Yes. And I know they say their vetting processes have been improved and these are only a few rotten apples but why are they so easy to find yes why are these rotten apples all in the reform you are making this too easy to do but to conclude there are rotten apples in every orchard it's about rooting them out yeah of course there are of course there are but you want to be a party of government you've got to persuade me that you can run this country and that's not just about policy that's about party management and people some people will judge do i feel comfortable with the ability of this party to run this country if it can't manage these sorts of people?

22:03That's a good test of how good would it be in Westminster. Coming up after Jacob Rees-Mogg takes on Tucker Carlson on whether we're ready for war, why do so few people say they'll sign up to fight?

22:44We'll see you next time. virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs MIDI. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. I'm Vinicius Rainey. And I'm Roland Olyphant. As hosts of The Telegraph's podcast Iran the Latest, it's our job to keep you up to speed on what's going on in the Middle East. Join us every day as we ask, can the US put an end to Iran's nuclear ambitions once and for all?

23:21Who will come out on top in the peace talks? Has this war damaged America's ability to take on China? And what are the long-term implications for the wider world? Search Iran the latest and listen wherever you get your podcasts. We're also now on video. Watch us on YouTube and on The Telegraph's website.

23:44Jacob Rees-Mogg I'm calling you Montgomery 2.0 because of your slightly Monty and indeed Penny Morden-esque stand-up-and-fight Mogalog which then attracted you to be spotted by Tucker Carlson who has maintained that you're some kind of warmongerer because you think that we should be ready to fight a third world war I mean, is that an accurate description of your position? Let's go back to the 5th century and Legitius who said... You modernist. Absolutely. David Davis is also here and you're in this conversation because you were once a soldier. That's a useful perspective. If you want peace, prepare for war.

24:18Yeah. And although it's attributed to him, actually, you can trace back its antecedents for centuries before that. That if you want peace, prepare for war. that if you think of so many wars, you think of the first Gulf War where Saddam Hussein thought that America didn't mind if he invaded Kuwait. You think of the Falklands where Galtieri thought that we didn't really care. You think of the Second World War, the First World War. On and on it goes. War takes place when the other side thinks you are so weak that you won't do anything about it. To stop war, you have to make sure that you are well defended.

24:56And what does that mean? That means having an army that is of a realistic size. The Kaiser in 1914, if we had had a bigger army and he'd known that we would protect Belgium, would not have gone through Belgium. It's as simple as that. So you need a reasonable number of people under arms, but crucially, you need the best technology so that your enemy knows that they will be facing serious consequences if they attack you. Well, let me hit you with the findings of a new poll out today by Ipsos, which reveals the following rather worrying statistic. One in two, 48 % say there are no circumstances where they would be willing to take up arms and go to war for Britain.

25:39It's just not true. I'm not saying the poll hasn't come up with this answer. This is a poll of a thousand British adults conducted. The Oxford Union voted that under no circumstances would they vote for king and country, and half the people who were in that debate then took up arms in 1939 once we were at war with Hitler. When you're at peace, people say they will never fight. The atmosphere would change immediately if we were attacked, if we got in the position where we had to go to war. It's like so many of these questions that change once you have the discussion, once the reality hits. When you do opinion polls in ordinary time about do people want ID cards, you find that 80 % say yes, they'd quite happily have an ID card.

26:22When you have debated the subject for about a week, as Keir Starmer discovered a year ago, it suddenly flips around and you discover that everyone is against them. I have no doubt that the great British people would sign up in their droves if we were really faced with war. And I think we should be prepared by making sure that the army and the Navy and, of course, the Air Force are well enough staffed so that we have the base to be ready for it. David, hang on, before you respond, tell us, why did you join the armed forces and where did you serve? All sorts of reasons, but mostly excitement, bluntly.

27:02I was 18, 19, and I wanted to take the selection course for the SAS and get through that and parachute and do all sorts of other things. But also, there was a real threat from the Soviet Union. My task, and I can talk about it now because it's so long ago and it'd be done by a robot today, was to go behind enemy lines, find what they call the follow-on forces, ideally cause a traffic jam like there was north of Kiev in the beginning of the Russian invasion there, and then call in the weapons on that traffic jam. It wasn't a very long survival option, but, you know, that was the task. And it was important because the Soviet Union was a real threat.

27:42Now, take, I mean, I really strongly reinforce Jacob's point on people not wanting to fight. in 1938 it was 20 years after the carnage of the first world war the motives and people never to fight were huge and as neil makes today as nothing by comparison and yet he's right in a year they changed their mind now i think i think we can alter that and alter much of our preparedness by looking at pretty much every country that's actually significantly either at war been at war recently, whether it's Ukraine or Israel or America, all have huge reserve forces. Yes. Three, four times, you know, they're sort of normal forces.

28:27And we should be doing that. I mean, I would, for example, I would say to every student going to university, if you serve four years in the reserves, that's while you're at university plus one year afterwards to get you into the habit afterwards, we'll pay your tuition fees. And while you're there, you know, you'll be earning money. So you can probably pay your living. Wow. That's a good idea. That's a good idea. And you get smart people too, because tomorrow's soldier is not somebody who's going to carry a rifle. It's somebody who's going to control a drone or invent a new method of tactics in the face of the drone warfare and so on.

29:02So you want smart people. And then what will happen? Something else will happen. Even in the 30s, in my little local town, Howden, You know, the centre of some part of the social work would be the TA centre. You know, the bar in the Territorial Army Centre in the drill hall or whatever. People would know each other and they'd go and exercise at weekends. It'd be part of people's community. Yes. It would bring people out of their rooms in front of their screens and do real things. Yes. And we could do all of that. And it would actually have more benefits than just military. But can I ask you something?

29:40I mean, let's be honest. You're a lover, not a fighter, Jacob Rees-Mogg. You're an intellectual. You weren't ever somebody that did much sport at school. If you had been conscripted genuinely, if you had been of that era, how would you actually have felt bearing arms and going over the top and fighting in either the First or the Second World War? In the First World War, the people in those circumstances from my old school, whether they were academic or they were great sportsmen, went in their enormous numbers. I think Eton lost over 1 ,200 people in the First World War. That's basically a full five years of Eton killed in the First World War.

30:19And it's quite extraordinary, the commitment that there was then, that they signed up. They didn't need to wait to be conscripted. And I think you'd find out. Actually, one of the great things about this country is we didn't introduce conscription until, what was it, 1917 it comes in, basically 1916 comes in 1917, because people are so determined to fight for their country. Yeah, the pals. We had all sorts of volunteer battalions. New Zealand, with no conscription, provided a higher percentage of its available population to fight in the First World War than we did with conscription. And we forget the Indians and people like that.

30:52Absolutely, who weren't conscripting. But answer my question. You're a committed Catholic. You go, bear arms, and you kill people. I completely believe in the just war theory, which is a Catholic theory developed primarily by Thomas Quiner. So those are from Augustine as well. So it draws on that. But there's been a just war theory since the 13th century. So I have no difficulty with a just war theory. The question you should be asking me is not about me. I'm 57. I'm not of an age, really, to be involved. Yeah, but you have got five sons. You should ask me about my sons. Yes. My eldest son. If I was a Ukrainian, I'd have been called up, and I'm older than you.

31:28OK. Yeah. And, you know, if it comes to that, then, of course. I have an image of Jacob. But in the taking of Pegasus Bridge, there's a film actually about the Pegasus Bridge in the sort of the Normandy invasion, the Normandy landings. There's a wonderful public schoolboy officer who, while everybody else is hiding behind hedges and in the holes, is walking along the middle of the road with a walking stick. Nothing else. The white church. You think that would be me? That's you. But on to your five sons. That's a very good point. Eldest son is keen to join the army. And I think my second son, who is 16, would be pretending he was 18 to sign up if this happened.

32:09As many did. As many did. They then get younger. So it's hard to say once they're 14. Actually, my 10 year old knows everything about what led to the First World War and, you know, he's absolutely fascinated by all of that and what caused it. So the worry that would be as a parent, it wouldn't be about myself. The other thing about the just war theory, I mean, I'm not as erudite as Jacob. None of us are, David. My basic line is don't start wars, but do finish them. You know, I think that's... Have we got the capability to finish wars that others have started? In the First World War, I think basically the regular army was used up in the first set of campaigns.

32:55By the time you got to Battle of the Marne, it was a territorial army fighting, you know. In the Second World War, the armed forces there were pretty much also used up, captured, killed, whatever, in the first place. So you've got to have many more people. And Jacob's right. Wars of aggression are almost invariably miscalculations. Yes. Whether it's Argentine or German or Russian, for that matter, it's a miscalculation. And that's where we have to be very careful. Actually, this is true of Ukraine. And because we were so weak after the invasion, the initial invasion of Crimea, and allowed Putin to get away with it, Putin thought that he could invade Ukraine and we wouldn't do anything.

33:43So when all these munitions had got through to Ukraine, mainly thanks to Boris Johnson, and they were stopped, his miscalculation became apparent and they're now bogged down in a war of four and a half years. I think the Russians have had 21 wars, basically, since Putin's been... It's basically non-stop continuous warfare, and nobody stopped him. Why would he not continue? But is there an appetite in this country for that kind of seemingly forever war where Putin can't win and Ukraine can't lose? So what's the question? Well, I don't know. You know, it's going on and on and on. Imagine, it's all very well us talking about this theoretically.

34:23if that is your husband or your son going out there. And it's extraordinary, isn't it? Because it is being fought by drone, but it's also being fought by land. And I never thought we would have that kind of land war again. Well, those land wars do go on forever. Look at the Iran-Iraq war, same sort of thing. But it comes back to Jacob's earliest point, the 5th century point. If you wish for peace, prepare for war. Don't let it start. And the only way you can stop it starting is by being big enough and scary enough that they won't take you on. What role do I play in any war effort, future war effort?

34:59Well, I don't know. As a middle-aged woman. I don't know. Women were a formidable part of the Second World War, whether it was the GCHQ predecessor with Enigma, whether it was SOE, behind the lines. Sue Ryder. Sue Ryder. I met Sue Ryder. She was, I think she parachuted into Poland. She certainly went into Poland. I think she met Pope John there, actually. He was a resistance leader. Yes, Nancy Wake, who was constantly parachuted. And they were formidably brave. Formidably brave. I mean, you know, we men, we all butch ourselves up. You know, we don't have to do childbirth. You know, much more painful.

35:41So, you know, so I think there will be a big role. I mean, the future war will be undiscriminating sexually. I think that's probably right because you'll have the operation of drones, which doesn't need to be done by men. It needs to be done by people who are dexterous and are capable of doing it. So I think everybody will be involved. In the Second World War, the UK, one of the reasons that we succeeded was much better at turning its economy, its whole economy into a war economy than Germany was. Even at the very end of the war, the British economy was more of a war economy than Germany managed to be.

36:14And I think you would see the same happening again. but this won't happen if we're prepared. That's the good news. I didn't want people listening to this to think, here we are, three warmongers. We're not. We're peacemongers. My two predecessors in Holton, Price and Howden, two constituencies, were the last two double-decorated members of Parliament. You wouldn't know their names. Paul Bryan, MCDSO, and Patrick Wall, MC. It wasn't DSO, but it was equivalent, you know. And if you'd ask them, you know, or indeed if Margaret Thatcher, when she was considering the Falklands, surrounded by Peter Carrington, Willie Whitelaw, Pym, all these people who had fought in the Fillet's Gap.

36:53They'd seen young men blown to bits, die in agony, you know, 18-year-olds. They said to her, be careful before you take this on, the Falklands War. Think it through very, very carefully indeed. Soldiers are not warmongers. When I led a rebellion to defeat Cameron on bombing Syria, Every one of my Tory supporters was an ex-military man because they knew what war really is. And they know the only way to stop it is to be so scary. The other side won't take you all. That's why nobody ever takes on David, because he's so scary. They're never in the monster of you as well. Yes. I can see myself commanding some kind of tank battalion.

37:34I can see a picture of Margaret Thatcher. You just need the headscarf. I can certainly see you commanding a drone battalion. Thank you, David. Scary. Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Davis thank you very much indeed for joining me on The Daily Tea on a lighter note Tim you'll be back tomorrow with the Royal Tea on Harry and Meghan the latest

38:40We'll see you next time. get started and grab a$150 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.