Jake Berry: Kemi Badenoch is toast, Nigel Farage should be PM

0:02The Telegraph.

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1:54to reform. Yes, we're going to be asking him what on earth was going through his mind and we're also going to be asking him how many other Tories are going to follow him. I'm not sure he's very keen on telling us though. Indeed, it makes for a very interesting interview, not least when he refers back to his Conservative colleagues and we're also of course going to be remembering Ozzy Osbourne. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me Camilla Tominey and me Gordon Rayner.

2:30Jake Berry, Sir Jake Berry, I should call you. Welcome to The Daily Tea. A Conservative for 25 years. You recently defected to reform, following in the footsteps of Andrea Jenkins, David Jones. We're going to get into the whole why you've left the Tory thing in just a moment, but as we speak, there is a breaking news story happening and our colleagues in the newsroom behind us are working on it. Nigel Farage, reform leader, has now called for the resignation of the Chief Constable of Essex Police and indeed the Crime Commissioner, having posted on his social media footage which appears to show the police bussing pro-migrant campaigners, including campaigners for Antifa, the hard-left organisation, wearing masks to the Bell in Epping and blaming the police there for actually inflaming the tensions outside that migrant hotel.

3:21Just to familiarise everybody, their attentions regarding that hotel, it was housing women and children who were seeking asylum in the UK. It switched to housing adult males, and one of those males, a 38-year-old, has been accused of sexually inappropriate and criminal behaviour towards a 14-year-old local girl. This shows stand-up to racism, as they're called, with Antifa, a violent, thuggish group, arriving at the train station and literally, by Essex police, being bussed to the Bell Hotel. These were the people that caused the disturbances. These were the people that caused the riots. Essex police caused the disturbances.

4:08What on earth were Essex police thinking? Is it that they just hate so much ordinary residents determined to stand up for their own rights? I don't know the answer to that question. What I do know is what Essex police have done here is absolutely disgraceful.

4:24Jake Berry: If it's proven that Essex police have, in effect, escorted them there, given them a lift there in a police van, whichever it may be, I do think that is completely wrong. Because while we have a right to protest in this country, you know, I might want to go to, I don't know, a country... When I went to the Countryside Alliance March, I didn't phone up the police in Sheffield and say, do you mind giving me a lift to London? I think that's the only protest march I've ever actually been on. And if in fact they have done that, I think whether it's a matter for the Police and Crime Commissioner who doesn't have control of operational issues, but certainly I think the call on the chief constable to consider his position, because how can you maintain a position of independence where you are apparently seen to have favoured one side of what is a very complicated argument?

5:10Jake Berry: But I think it also speaks to a more general feeling that we have in the country where people do feel that the way we are policed depends sometimes on what side of the argument that you fall on. We hear accusations of this two-tier policing system, and I think things like this just really reinforce that sense that the police are no longer those fair, independently-minded actors that we all want them to be in our country. I think Nigel's right to do what he's done. Well, this was B.J. Harrington, the chief constable of Essex Police, speaking at a press conference earlier. Your colleague Stuart Hooper said in terms of bringing people to the hotel, Well, the police have a duty to facilitate free assembly.

5:55The force initially said that they didn't bring anyone to the hotel, but your colleague's team suggests that that had happened after footage emerged. You set the record straight then. Was Stuart wrong when he said that? Under the law of this country, as it stands, people have the freedom to assembly and to freedom of speech. So your officers did bring people towards that hotel? Listen to my answer. There is a duty upon policing to allow people to exercise their rights of assembly and protest. That's a right of this Human Rights Act. People came to that of their own volition. They walked up to that protest in order to ensure that we understand the threat, manage and deal with the risks and the issues.

6:36As we did outside the hotel, as we did in the high street, we had officers there, and they would have walked alongside to make sure that they understand, can intervene and prevent and detect crime. That's what happened, that's what the photos showed, and that's what's committed. That was BJ Harrington, the Chief Constable of Essex Police, speaking to Charlie Peters of GB News. And then there was a protest last night outside a hotel in Canary Wharf as well, where asylum seekers are going to be homed. The police were in attendance at that protest. Have the British people just had enough of this now?

7:07Jake Berry: I think they have. I mean, we heard that this was discussed at Cabinet yesterday. today, they briefed out that I think society is fraying at its edges. And I think what makes it really difficult for any government or any police force to deal with is there is, if you have a large scale riot, if you think of the student riots back in 2011, I think they were all the appalling riots that took place in Southport just last summer, a government can react to that, a police force quite correctly will clamp down on that, arrest people, process them quickly through the justice system. What I think we're seeing now is different.

7:42Jake Berry: It's very difficult for government and police to deal with. You appear to have low level protests against migration and the housing of asylum seekers or migrants of any kind in hotels or in communities around the country, sort of all over the country. So there's been one in Epping, one at Canary Wharf, there was one down in Devon and Cornwall. There's been some in the north of England. It is a general feeling of discontent that is bubbling up across the country. And that's very hard for any government to deal with. And I suppose the question we should ask ourselves is, why is it happening? Now, of course, no one knows the answer.

8:20Jake Berry: But I sort of feel that the British public, a lot of the conversations I've had over the last six or 12 months have been, you know, they voted Conservative because they wanted change and they didn't get it. They voted Labour because they wanted change and they didn't get it. And they sort of, you know, what's left of them? Okay, yes, I hope and believe that they will support the Reform Party because that will represent real change. But there's a lot of people I think out there, it's a very dangerous position for Britain to be in. They say, well, politics doesn't work. So maybe I should just start shouting loudly.

8:53Jake Berry: Maybe I should join with my friends and neighbours and go and peacefully protest to show how unhappy I am with what's going on in my country. And I mean, that's a huge failure of politics and something we should all be massively concerned about in terms of the safety and cohesion of communities across the United Kingdom. When you defected, you said, quote, this is our last chance to pull Britain back from decline. And people may rightly say, look, you served in Liz Truss's government as party chair. You had a stint as a northern powerhouse minister under Boris Johnson, who's a close friend and ally of yours, a lot of the reason why Britain is in decline is because of the Conservative government or successive Conservative governments that you actively served in.

9:37How much blame must the Tories take?

9:39Jake Berry: Well, I mean, it's a really fair question. So let me talk about what I've done for the last year, because actually, I think it's quite, or even a bit longer than that, I think it's quite interesting that politics, as you both know, but your viewers and listeners may not understand it's 110 % job. It consumes the whole of you. That's why divorce rates are so high amongst members of parliament and particularly people in ministerial roles. You very rarely get the opportunity to take a step back and sort of say, is what I'm doing worth a candle? Is it working? Is what I'm doing actually doing what I believe all people in politics get into public life to do, which is improving the United Kingdom and helping the British people.

10:20Jake Berry: When I left Boris Johnson's cabinet back in 2020, that was a real opportunity, followed by COVID, which is an appalling time for all of us. But that was a real opportunity to take a step back, to become a backbench MP again, to really start pursuing the things I was passionate about, but also to spend some time thinking about whether the Conservative government had served the British people correctly, whether we were achieving what we said we were going to achieve. and I really came to the conclusion during that period. I know I was briefly back in government under Liz Truss, but, you know, frankly, if you blinked, you might have missed it.

10:55Jake Berry: But, you know, there was an opportunity to sit back and think about how we can do things better in this country and particularly since, you know, I was kicked out in no uncertain terms by the voters of Rosendale and Darn at the last general election. I've had a year where I've really done nothing in politics. I've had nothing to do with politics. And I was sort of quite happy, as it were, to kind of hang my boots up and say, you know, I've done 14 years, 25 years supporting the Conservative Party. But I found myself increasingly being very, very concerned about where Britain is. We live in a country where our schoolchildren are told they shouldn't be proud of our history.

11:30Jake Berry: We live in a country where we are literally prosecuting members of our special forces for doing the job that they were sent out there by politicians to do. In London, I was on Oxford Street recently, arguably the most famous high street in the whole of the UK, And there's signs all the way down Oxford Street, do not use your phone because you can't walk down the street in many capitals or in London or in other cities around the United Kingdom without being a victim of street robbery. I mean, I've got a good idea. If you want not just put a few more police officers on the street to arrest the criminals rather than me not be able to use my phone.

12:03Jake Berry: Britain, I do think, is in a bad spot. I completely accept that the Conservative Party failed to sort it out over 14 years. I think the Labour Party has done a worse job in 14 months. But I think it goes beyond that. I think there has been a post-Blair political consensus, which David Cameron, in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, then Theresa May, then to some extent Boris Johnson, who I do think wanted to do things differently but found out he couldn't, Rishi Sunak, Keir Starmer, Gordon Brown in the middle there as well. I think they've continued with a broken political system. And I think that's why people, getting back to those people who feel that desire to go out on their streets and say, look, we're really unhappy about what's happening in our community.

12:48Jake Berry: I think they have been failed by a political system. So I don't think you can lay all of the blame at the Conservative Party's door. I think you can lay a big chunk of it. And actually you can lay quite a lot of it at my door, as you say. I was part of it for 14 years. But I do think we now, I think Britain has to try and break this decline being destiny. And I think the British people are desperate for real change. And I'm desperate for real change too for my children and grandchildren. You could, of course, have made all of those arguments within the Conservative Party, couldn't you? You could have stuck around.

13:18You could have tried to persuade your Conservative colleagues, as were, that they were going in the wrong direction and giving them some thoughts on how they could combat all of these things. Do you understand why some of your former colleagues see your defection as just opportunism? They see someone who lost his seat is looking at the polls and is thinking, my best chance of getting my seat back is to join reform rather than argue for the right way of going about things in the Tory party.

13:47Jake Berry: I completely understand. It is the job of current Conservative politicians to make the life difficult of Conservatives who leave the party because, you know, I suppose they hope that others will look at me and think, oh, I'm not doing that because I had a bit of a bad time, I'm sure for other reasons as well. Dealing with the question very directly, did I try and affect change within the Conservative Party? I did. And talking about that period where I was on the backbenchers and also the last year when I've been stepped back from politics, I worked out, in my view, that the Conservative Party is not capable of the change.

14:21Jake Berry: Let me give you a couple of examples. So in my last couple of years in Parliament, I tried to launch something called the UK Tax Pledge. As a Conservative, I've always believed that we are the party of low taxes, but we became the government of the highest taxes on record. So I went round all of my Conservative colleagues, except those who were in ministerial positions, and said, will you sign this pledge that says that as a Conservative, even if it comes to a budget, you won't vote to put up taxes? Every single one of them, bar about 30, said, no, I'm not prepared to sign that because I think taxes probably need to go up further.

14:57Jake Berry: To me, that isn't being a Conservative. I tried to do that in my own party. I campaigned against the smoking ban, which I just think is absurd. The idea that we're going to create a hierarchy of freedom amongst people in the United Kingdom. You will have in a couple of years' time the bizarre situation that someone who is 18 years and three months old or whatever it may be can go and buy a packet of cigarettes, but someone who's 18 can't. I voted against that. That was a complete left-wing policy personally driven by Rishi Sunat, the prime minister. I voted with Tuala Braverman and a few of the brave conservatives to try and toughen up the Rwanda bill.

15:35Jake Berry: I'm not here to be rooted by my ex-colleagues, but my overarching impression, having spent 14 years working with them, is it's all very well. You can put a picture of Margaret Thatcher on your wall. You can say I'm a low-tax conservative. My mother, she's dead now, used to say to me when thinking about what I do in my own life, she used to say, handsome is as handsome does. and I think there's a bit of that in the Conservative Party. If it is still a bastion of low-tax, freedom-fighting Tories, then why did we end up with the highest taxes in the history of our country? Why are we doing crazy things like banning smoking, which I know views will differ on, but in my view it's a crazy idea.

16:11Jake Berry: I did have a very good go at trying to change their mind, but I was never in the majority. All right, then, well, who was the most dishonest on all that? Because I remember Rishi Sunak telling us about having a picture of Lawson on his wall while he was Chancellor. We then heard Jeremy Hunt. Well, he was racking up taxes, yeah. Well, he had Jeremy Hunt say the same. And then your mate Boris Johnson comes along suggesting he's the great hope for, you know, righties across the land. And it all goes horribly, horribly wrong. So which Conservative should cop the most flack for the failure of the last 14 years?

16:44Jake Berry: And that's such a tempting offer to get me to sort of rank them a bit like a football team. It's an offer I won't... We're not in the party anymore. No, but it's not for I won't accept. Look, people make their own mind up about the failings of those individuals you name. I definitely have my standout favourite, but I will resist. I will resist your invitation. Who's your standout favourite? Because I actually want to talk about the future and what I think a reformed government can do. But let me say this, and I think this is what the British public have cottoned on to. Take all of those individuals, take Keir Starmer, take David Cameron.

17:16Jake Berry: we have a political system where there is a view of the political class that announcing something is the same as doing something look at the recent announcements by the labor government we are going to build one and a half million homes or in fact we have built i think in some case one no you haven't you say you have a plan to do it which i doubt will ever be delivered we have fixed the broken foundations of our economy yet we have an economy that's shrinking and inflation going up We are going to smash the gangs. Well, you know, we have a 50 % increase in the number of people, the ones we measure, entering our country illegally.

17:51Jake Berry: Others you mentioned, you know, Rishi, Jeremy Hunt, Boris Johnson, you know, we are going to be the party of low taxes, deregulation and freedom. Well, you know, just look what the Conservative body did. None of that happened. And the British public aren't fools. They know that there's a massive gap between promise and performance by this sort of broken political machine that we have in this country. And I think they're absolutely fed up of it. I'm not surprised, though, because I'm completely fed up of it, too. This is what's driven me to reform, because I do think they can drive real change.

18:21But what about the argument that would be that Nigel Farage is the master of the performative promise? You know, he promises a great deal. He hasn't been tried and tested. Isn't there a risk, a little like with Boris Johnson, that this guy is an amazing political communicator, that he's great with constituents, that he can reach the parts that others can't reach, but actually once put in Downing Street, isn't going to be able to deliver because he's not necessarily across the detail.

18:51Jake Berry: I've had lots of talks with Nigel. As you imagine, it was a very difficult decision for me to leave the party I've been supporting for 25 years. I've had the opportunity to sit with him and discuss all these sort of issues. I understand the other 60-odd million people who live in Britain and haven't had that yet. But I think ultimately his values are absolutely right. He believes in Britain and he has a determination to fix what is breaking our country. He will need to build around him a great team of people to do that, like every prime minister does. But there's no warm-up for being prime minister.

19:28Jake Berry: Keir Starmer, I mean, people say Nigel Farage has never been a minister. Well, nor Keir Starmer, you know, till he walked through the doors of Downing Street. I'm not saying it's an easy job, but ultimately from the time I've spent with Nigel, I think all of his political decisions will be viewed, frankly, through one lens. And that is, is what I'm doing the right thing to do for Britain? Is it good for Britain and her interest? And I think that's the right value set for a leader of any nation. That's quite a sweeping sort of statement, isn't it? It sounds great. But when you start even thinking about fairly minor details, let's say, especially with tax, you are very focused on taxation, as we've just heard.

20:13Nigel Farage has announced either policies or ideas that he would like to put into place, such as reforming criminal justice. Some of those policies have been costed or projected to cost about£17 billion. pounds. Yeah, well, let's talk about the crime policy. How is Nigel Farris going to get taxes down if he's going to go ahead with some of these pledges, which are going to be very, very costly?

20:39Jake Berry: Well, first of all, I thought the announcement on Law and Order was brilliant. I mean, I would say that, wouldn't I? But I really think it was. I've waited a very long time to have someone come out very bravely, I think, and say things can be done differently. I don't know what the Conservative Party's policy is to bring on Law and Order. I don't know. Maybe they haven't announced it yet. I actually don't know what the government's policy is on law and order because I don't see any other political party really focusing down on it and saying, this is unacceptable. We have a plan to fix it. You're both political journalists.

21:08Jake Berry: Perhaps you'll tell me what the government's policy is on law and order. You can educate me. But, you know, Britain has got a massive, massive issue with crime. And the sort of money that Nigel is talking about spending, it's about three and a half billion pound a year. There was a custod document that came out with the policy. while it's an inordinately large sum of money it's the sort of money that the UK government seems to find down the back of the sofa on occasions to do what they want to do I mean look at the fact we're spending four billion pound a year to house people going up actually to house people in migrant hotels the recent outrage of the super injunction you know hiding from the British people the extent of the mistake by the Ministry of Defence they suddenly found £7 billion in the Treasury Reserve, like the magic money tree, and they could pay to bring 25 ,000 plus people to the United Kingdom.

21:58Jake Berry: It's about political will, and it's about choices. Now, there will be tough choices that I'm sure Nigel has to make if he has the privilege of becoming our Prime Minister. But the UK government, these are not such large sums of money. This is not sort of Jeremy Corbyn economics. These are not such large sums of money that it's unachievable to find them. And I just think the British public do want a focus on law and order because walking down any major city, I spoke earlier, you can't walk down the street using your phone, walk on any street in London and other cities like Manchester, all the streets reek of cannabis.

22:34Jake Berry: You go on the tube here in London, there's graffiti all over the Bakerloo line, which is particularly bad. People are pushing their way onto buses and trams and tubes, not paying their affairs. We have a sort of low-level tolerance of criminality in this country that has grown up in policing that I just think is completely corrosive for society. And Nigel Fry has set up a plan to tackle it. One other example I'd give you, you're working in the Westminster village. You know that this particular square mile with the House of Commons in, Downing Street in, Buckingham Palace in, has probably got more cops per square mile than anywhere else in the country.

23:13Jake Berry: Across Westminster Bridge, there are people running illegal gambling games on Westminster Bridge for tourists to con tourists out of money. What are the police doing about that? There's literally hundreds of them around Westminster. What are the police doing about low-level criminality like that? Nothing. They're spending their time escorting people, apparently, to and from protests. What I want them to do is go out and feel the collar of some of these people. And I think that's the sort of focus that the British people want. Coming up, is Boris Johnson going to defect to reform? And why does Jake Berry think that Kimi Badenoch and the Tories are toast?

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26:13Should government spending come down?

26:15Jake Berry: Well, I think government spending is going to have to come down. Under, if reform was... Well, so I am not, first of all, I'm not a policy person at reform. I know, but what's your instinct on it? Because you're saying taxes must come down, therefore government spending must come down. I think we do need to bring government spending under control. But, you know, to give you an example, you know, we have got to find a way. I mean, the thing about this focus on crime, criminality costs this country tens of billions of pounds a year. If we can find a way to clamp down on criminality, we can find a way to reduce government spending.

26:54Jake Berry: People coming to this country illegally cost this country billions, if not tens of billions of pounds a year. You find a way to deal with that. Now, if you're going to say, give me a time frame for government spending to come down, I'll say, speak to Richard Tice. He's the economics baseman for reform. No, I know, and he's given some figures. Look, he's given some figures. And actually, when we went to the Crime and Punishment press conference on Monday, Farage pointed to HS2 as being a way to cut money. He's talked about cutting government waste and made a reference to Millet in Argentina with his chainsaw.

27:24And then, of course, the other key reform pledge is to scrap net zero. Now, I'd imagine that that might be problematic for you because you have been quite a hearty supporter of net zero over the years. As one Tory colleague remarked, you've had more positions on this than the Kama Sutra.

27:42Jake Berry: Well, do you know the really annoying thing about that is it's a great political line, isn't it? But they actually pinched it from me because I said that Keir Starmer had had more positions on Brexit than the Kama Sutra, which is also true. What they've said isn't true. Look, I'm not going to get into he said, she said, with former Conservative colleagues. As I said earlier, it's their job to give me a bad time. I'm a big boy. I can deal with it. I wish they make the mind up because, you know, to say that I'm some sort of wet, high-tax public spending Tory, well, you know, as I say, I did the tax pledge.

28:13Jake Berry: I might point out most of them wouldn't sign it. But do you support net zero? To say that I'm sort of some net zero zealot. Well, do you support net zero? I mean, Alok Sharma, who was the COP26, I think, minister, wasn't he? the high priest of net zero. I can't remember how he described me, but I was campaigning to reopen a coal mine in Cumbria, a coking coal mine in Cumbria. And it was Alok Sharma, Ed Miliband, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth collectively came out and slammed me. I think they said that you only believe in levelling up through increasing carbon or something like that. So I've always been really pragmatic about this.

28:50Jake Berry: I am an environmentalist. I wasn't at the speech on Monday about crime because I was fishing on the river. Why? So I believe in having a nice environment. Do you support net zero? No, I don't. What? Because the reason I don't support it, no, the reason I don't support it, let me tell you why, is because net zero shouldn't be something that closes British businesses. I mean, I'm this net zero. I'm actually one of the few Conservative MPs who voted for fracking and is pro-fracking. I have no desire to see hydrocarbons driven out of our economy. I had a shower this morning, actually to the gas central heating came on and warmed the water for me i quite like having gas central heating i have no desire for a heat pump whatsoever you know net zero reducing the amount of carbon going into the atmosphere i think is a good thing but to do that by destroying british industry and expecting hard-working british taxpayers who i mean we've basically had no economic growth in this country since 2008 to speak of families are really really struggling and saying, look, you know, as the Labour Party said, we're going to not 300 quid off your electricity bill.

29:54Jake Berry: They've actually gone up. So through these green levies, punishing, you know, consumers isn't the way to do it. Look, if industry comes towards with solutions... The Johnson government, you help propel Boris Johnson to power. You serve under him. He's the key proponent of net zero. Now you're saying you don't support him. Well, you were saying earlier about what did you try and do to change things from inside the government. You can, I'm sure Boris would come on if you asked him. He and I do not agree about net zero. And during the COP26 summit, I submitted, you can go and look them up, a series of written questions which asked for each government building how they were heated.

30:34Jake Berry: It's on the public record. And said, you know, what's the heating in Chequers? What's the heating in Chevening? What's the heating in Downing Street? Do you have a heat pump? Do you have solar panels? I can tell you for every government building, the answer was no. And I was contacted by the whips at the time and they said, why are you going out of your way to give the government a hard time on net zero? I mean, it wasn't the first time we'd had these sort of conversations I might have. Going out of your way to give the government a hard time on net zero during COP26 to specifically embarrass the government.

31:06Jake Berry: And I said, I regard the whole thing as a vanity fair. I think the government has gone crazy about this. I think they're hitting hardworking families. If you believe that people living in terraced houses in Lancashire should have a heat pump, why isn't the one on Downing Street? If you believe that people living in flats in Greater Manchester should have solar panels, why isn't the one on the Department for Business, Energy and Climate Change or whatever it was called then? There is rank hypocrisy across government about net zero. You asked what some of the things I did in Parliament to try and point out what the government was doing.

31:39Jake Berry: I used quite a lot of my time in Parliament to beat the government up over net zero. The idea of reducing carbon going into the atmosphere was quite a good idea. But, you know, I did use my time in government to give them a bad time when I thought it was hurting people, voters, and it was hypocrisy. On Boris, should he join reform? You'd have to ask Boris that. What do you think, though? Well, I don't think he ever will. I think Boris is completely happy being post-politics. I think he always likes to let people think he might come back. Maybe he will. I don't know. But I think the great thing about Boris is, and this is a great mistake that people make, I think, generally across politics, is they associate the position people took on whether Britain should remain in the European Union, about whether that makes you left wing or right wing in British politics.

32:26Jake Berry: Boris was clearly one of the main proposers and proponents of Britain leaving the European Union. But he has always been a bit of a pinko lefty. And this is sort of the right wing of the Conservative body said, you know, here is the new messiah. And I might point out he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy. But, you know, Boris has always been very pro-migration. He's always been very pro-ingrider. He's a good friend of mine. There's just loads of stuff we don't agree on. Now that you're watching from afar, not being a Tory anymore, what do you think is going to happen to Kemi Baden-Ock?

32:56There's a lot of talk about leadership challenges that she might only be given until November. What do you foresee happening?

33:03Jake Berry: I think she's toast. I think she's toast. Look, you know, all these people coming out, lecturing me on loyalty, I just would quietly point out that, you know, they have a bit of a thing about getting rid of prime ministers and elected leaders of the Conservative Party. I think sadly for Kemi, she might be a bit of a, it's not for me to say, but she might be a bit of a William Hague. Maybe she got the big job too early. I think she's failed to make impact. I think the challenge is, and it must be deeply frustrating for her, almost whatever she says, the British public don't appear to be listening.

33:38Jake Berry: And that's an impossible position for a leader of any political party to find themselves in. And I guess what will happen is, you know, Conservative members of Parliament will decide, well, you know, if we just have, you know, one more Hail Mary, then the British public will start listening to us. I just don't think that's the case. So do you think the Conservative Party itself is toast? I have no idea. I sort of suspect, I mean, it's the oldest political party in the world, but I remember people used to say that about Lehmann's, which was the oldest bank, I think, at one point in the world and doesn't exist now.

34:09Jake Berry: But I was speaking to a colleague of mine, and I said, I just wonder whether the Conservative Party is going to become a bit like the blue whale. There are a few of them around, but they can't find each other to breed with. And once you get to the point that every time there's a set of local elections, Conservative councillors, you know, lose and they lost I think nine councils, eight councils, I think they lost a reform, a County Durham reform one from Labour control. You lose all of your councillors. I suspect in Wales in the elections next May, the Conservative Party might go down to zero members of the Senedd.

34:45Jake Berry: Some polls have them on three or four, quite a lot of the polls have them on zero. So effectively, the party will lose all of its Senedd members, may lose all of its Senate member in Wales. It's already lost all of its MPs in Wales. I think reform will do very well in Scotland. I think the Conservative Party will do terribly again in Scotland. It may get to the point where the infrastructure itself of the party is hollowed out to such an extent that its survival is at risk. What about some reform and conservative interbreeding? We had Suella Braverman in your seat yesterday and she was talking like a Faragean reformer and we obviously questioned whether she had considered defecting and she talked about the Conservatives being her family, but she's clearly extremely disgruntled with some members of her own party and we asked her about the reshuffle and said, has there been any outreach from Kemi Badenock and clearly there hadn't been.

35:39So what's the deal with Suella and reform then?

35:42Jake Berry: I mean, number one, I don't know, so there's no point pretending I do. You'd have to ask Suella that. But in those years where I was, you know, trying to work really hard to get changes in Conservative polity, I often find myself in the same division lobby as Suella. I know she, with me, voted to toughen up the Rwanda bill. In fact, that's the reason she resigned from government. I know, I think, I'm almost certain she voted with me against the Windsor framework. We sort of shared. Oh, she voted against all of that. And I think she voted against the smoking bill as well, didn't she? So we have found ourselves, we are sort of, even though I'm apparently this wet, liberal, net zero Tory, which is a load of bunkum, but we have found ourselves more often than not on issues that divide the Conservative Party in the same division lobby.

36:29Jake Berry: So I don't know whether she'll join reform. I think she's a brilliant politician. She's obviously chosen a different road to try and, you know, to try and change the Conservative Party within. She's a hell of a lonely voice, but I wish her well with that. But a reform being quite picky about the Tories they'll take, because there is a kind of rhetoric around reform, isn't there, that there's quite a lot of contempt towards conservatives right now and a lot of talk about destroying the Tory party. and there's an irony there really because clearly there is a huge amount of sort of the electorate that are on the right, two and a half million of them didn't turn out in 2024, who are wondering which side to back and I don't know whether sort of open contempt for Toryism and Tories is necessarily helpful to the reform cause when they'll have to attract some of these righties.

37:21Jake Berry: Yeah, I mean, the first thing to say about reform is three years ago, well, every person involved with the reform party today, three years ago, either had no political party or a member of a different political party because the party is only three years old. And what I found extraordinary about it is, one, the huge welcome and support I've had from members, all members, but most members and definitely everyone in the professional party. It's been a breath of fresh air rather than the usual contempt that Conservative Central Office shows towards its sort of rank and file members. It's a broad political church.

37:59Jake Berry: it is bringing people together from the Labour Party, ex-Conservatives, ex-Scottish nationalists, from across the political spectrum, and bring them together with one view, and that view is that we have to deliver real change and try and get Britain back on track, create a Britain, I think, that people can believe in again and be proud to call their home. Have you been approached by current Tory MPs who are thinking of defecting? No. You haven't had any conversations with any Tory MPs who said, actually, I might be joining you? You know what I think reform does really well is, I bet you didn't know I was going to join reform until I announced it.

38:40Jake Berry: I certainly didn't know that Andrea Jenkins, who's actually a very good friend of mine, was going to join reform until she jumped. They keep these things very tight. I think that's the right thing to do. So, frankly, if I did know those conversations going on, I wouldn't tell you. but I can actually sit here with an open heart and say, I don't know of any other conversations going on because I'm not involved in them. Not even with Jacob Rees-Mogg? No, absolutely not. There's nothing I'm involved in. Sorry, that's really boring, isn't it? I should sit here and go out. No, that's fair enough. At least it's honest.

39:09Can we put some readers' comments to you? Of course. Because you said not everybody in the reform ranks was overwhelmingly supportive. Trevor Dickens. As a member of the Reform Party, I don't think they should accept all these treacherous Tories without proper investigations into their past. and guarantee that they are really good enough to be a Reform Party candidate. Berry's past completely contradicts the values of reform.

39:34Jake Berry: Well, Trevor, I mean, I think reform, I did a lot of talking to reform before I went over. I'm really sorry that he feels like that. I hope over the coming months and years, I will have the opportunity to earn his trust as a reform member, as a fellow reform member. Do you think that, as Sola Braverman said, Braverman? I think both. It's interchangeable. Do you think that she's right to say that ripping up the ECHR is essential to making sure that law enforcement have got the powers necessary to deal with the migrant problem and all the other problems that we're struggling with? I do, yeah. Have you always thought that?

40:15Have you been on a journey like Robert Jenrick when it comes to the ECHR? Is Robert Jenrick on a journey?

40:19Jake Berry: I'm not quite sure. We're certainly not on the same journey. Well, it's on some sort, John. Because I knew I had a little suspicion that you might ask me about this. So I looked up when I publicly started calling for Britain to leave the ECHR. And I think it was, I've written down 2022, but I think it was quite early in 2022. Even as a Remainer, you were thinking? Well, ECHR has nothing to do with the European Union. I know, but sometimes it's aligned. Yeah, sometimes it is. But I just happen to believe that the ECHR is completely outdated in my view. I know it was founded by Winston Churchill is what people seem to throw out about it.

41:00Jake Berry: But it was a treaty designed for a different age. It was a treaty designed for mass migration within Europe, actually, after the Second World War with people fleeing the ashes of that conflict and wanted to come to the United Kingdom. It may well have served us very well at that period. I don't know. I wasn't alive, but I haven't heard much criticism of it from people who were. I think we live in a very different world now. I think we have a huge issue with the global poor trying to come to the West generally. And I don't think this sort of surrender of the ability to set your own destiny, particularly when it comes to protecting your own sovereign borders, is now right for the United Kingdom.

41:44Jake Berry: I've thought that for quite a long time. I've been calling for it publicly. I think I first did it in a Daily Express article, but for a number of years. And, you know, frankly, what is a country if you don't control your own borders? I mean, how can you even say really? It is surely part of the fundamentals of being a nation state to have the ability to control who comes in or out of your country. That's why we have passports. and you know to effectively not be able to do that not be able to keep the British people safe for your government not to be able to control who comes in and out of your country because of a sort of very old treaty I think no longer serves the British people and I think I think it's high time that we looked at we're drawing.

42:34We'll give you one more reader's comment Well, Ian Taylor said, Jake Berry voted Remain, supported May's surrender deal all three times and voted against a no-deal Brexit. Berry, Sir Jake, I think he means, has a lot to prove. That's the most polite thing I've been called today. If he is to convince members he has the necessary qualities to stand as an MP at the next election. I take it that's the intention, to stand as a reform MP at the next election.

42:59Jake Berry: Do you know, I genuinely haven't made my mind up. OK. It's really loads of people. What was extraordinary? you did ask if some colleagues contacted me. You remembered one. A couple did phone me. And you know what really struck me? It tells me, I'm not going to name any names. I got some text messages of people saying, I think you've been really brave or we're still mates even though you've done this. You know, nice. A couple actually took a moment to call me and they said, will you tell me what you've been promised by reform? And I said, well, nothing. And they said, well, have you been promised a peerage?

43:30Jake Berry: I said, no. I said, have you been promised a seat? You can contest. One of your commenters is asking at the next general election. I said, no, I haven't asked for a while. They said, are you going to be on the board? Are you going to be doing candidates? I said, no. They said, well, why on earth have you gone to reform? And I said, because I really believe it's the right thing to do. And one of my ex-colleagues, he put the phone down on me. He just couldn't compute the idea. Jake Berry would start naming names. Yeah, I know. I'm not going to. We need names. I want people to keep phoning me, but they couldn't compute the idea that any politician would do something necessarily.

44:07I know, but there's quite a lot of seats going around, isn't there, by the time of the next general election. I mean, you're going to be up there on the candidates list, surely.

44:15Jake Berry: Do you know what I was saying earlier? Come on, Cremilla. I was saying politics is 110 % of your life. One of the things I've really enjoyed from the last year, I've spoken about it before. My eldest boy is nonverbal. He's autistic. He attends a special school. And when I lost the election, I took him swimming. The day after I lost the election, I took him swimming. And it was the first. And he had just such joy that his father had taken swimming. And it's the first time I'd ever had the opportunity to do it. He was seven years old. There is so much. I may have run my race in politics. I don't know.

44:48Jake Berry: I'm not going to say I'm not going to stand. But there is so much of my, not just him, but all of my children that I've missed out on. I'm enjoying reconnecting with my family. So it would be a hell of a decision to go back in. To answer your commenter very directly, I spoke earlier about, I think there's a terrible mistake that's made in British politics to say if you backed leave or remain, it sets your political destiny for the rest of your life. I said Boris is a bit of a pinko lefty, which he is. I hope you're listening, Boris. But that was nearly 10 years ago. I mean, the next anniversary for the Brexit vote will be a decade.

45:23Jake Berry: And to say that a decision you made 10 years ago should necessarily set your political direction, rest of your life, I don't agree with. But to answer this question very directly, I know in this political party, it's brand new. I am just an ordinary member of reform. I have to work hard, earn my spurs if I ever want to do anything in the party. But I've got involved in this. I could have just waddled off into the sunset and taken my children swimming every single weekend. I've got involved in this because I want to campaign every day to try and change Britain for the better. I had a choice. I could have walked away.

45:57Jake Berry: I've decided to stand and fight with Nigel and Reform. And I hope when people see that I am just like any other ordinary member of Reform fighting to make Britain a better place, that I might quite slowly maybe with some of those commenters start to win their trust. Before you go, should we just have a little Ozzy Osbourne tribute moment between the three of us? Ever meet him, Gordon? Ever interview him? Ever do anything with him? No, but I did have a tape of Paranoid in the 1970s. Tell us more, Gordon Ray. I'm sure it wasn't a 78 record. It was a tape, because in those days that was what you had.

46:34It was tapes, as I'm sure you've got. I remember them well. Yes. So, yeah, I was quite a heavy metal kid when I was... What? This is absolutely... I would not have ever said that about you. Yeah. Double denim, everything. Double denim? Oh, yeah. Have you got any images of this that we can share on our socials? I think they must have all been lost in the mists of time, I'm afraid. Jake, Black Sabbath fan?

46:55Jake Berry: No, I wasn't. I was not a heavy metal fan. I was a raver and house music fan. But what I would say about... That hadn't been invented when I was... The revelations in this podcast, a raver and a house music fan. Who could ever believe it? Look at me now. Dreamscape 8, there you were with your white gloves on. No, it wasn't Dreamscape 8, it was Cream. It was Cream in Liverpool. I'm a Scouser, Born and Brad. What I would say about Ozzy Osbourne is, isn't it funny? I mean, the guy was famous for having a slightly chaotic family, made that brilliant TV show with Sharon Osbourne and his two children.

47:25Jake Berry: When I was a kid, he was famous for biting the head off a bat. Yeah, but he had his chaotic family, I think self-confessed substance abuse throughout most of his life, a hellraiser, but the British public just loved him. And I think the reason the British public just loved him is not someone I would expect the British public to warm to, you know, self-confessed drug taker and hellraiser, is he just came over as a really, really nice bloke. Yes. And genuine. Yeah, exactly. A genuine Brummie. Didn't pretend to be anything he wasn't. The greatest cultural export out of the Midlands. Quite right too.

47:59Well, our heart does go out to Sharon, his wife, and his six children. And I think the other reason why people loved him is he was clearly a man that very much loved his wife. Sir Jakeberry, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea. I've enjoyed that. Thank you.

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