Kingmaker: How Kate became William's secret weapon

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30is whole home scenting designed for the way you live. Build your Pura system today at pure.com slash whole home.

1:00Collect one of nine legendary cups with a FIFA World Cup meal. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. While supplies last, all rights reserved. 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026.

1:12Welcome to The Royal Tea, a quick cuppa, a brand new podcast serving up the very best royal insight from the experts in the know. Us, that's me, Camilla Tomini. And me, Victoria Ward, The Telegraph's Deputy Royal Editor. Today we're joined by historian Kate Williams, whose new book Regina lifts the lid on the lives of royal women, but with the Princess of Wales paying a pivotal role in the current House of Windsor, what we really want to know is what kind of queen will Catherine be?

1:49Kate Williams joins us in the Royal Tea Studio. I need to keep on saying that with the Union Jack teapot because we hijack the Daily Tea for royal episodes and we have an eminent historian in the room who many people recognise from your many contributions to royal history, both on TV and in the written form. And your latest book is Regina, which I always say and have a little inward giggle because I'm a schoolgirl about the word Regina and I've got to get over it. My friend did say we could call it, its unofficial title was The Regina Monologues. Well, indeed. Why didn't you? That would have been a great name.

2:22You know what I actually wanted to call it? I actually wanted to call it Weak and Feeble, as in Elizabeth saying, I've the body of a weak and feeble woman, but the heart and stomach of the king. And I thought that'd be a great title. And everyone said it was terrible. Even the publishers said, no, Kate, that's awful. But yes, Regina monologues. The Regina monologues, it's not called that. It's called Regina, A New History of Women and Power. And can I just say... Sorry, I should do that again without me interrupting you. No, no, no, it's fine. No, no, it's fine. So Regina, A New History of Women and Power.

2:49And actually, as I look at you now, I've realised just how you could have played Elizabeth the first in a film. I mean, with much better teeth, let's be honest Kate. You know, I did, you know the white makeup that everyone said, you know this is a joke isn't it, but you know the white makeup that people say, oh that killed Elizabeth the first, she was so vain. A story that we repeat about Queen saying she was so vain. Yes, as it meant to have had arse in it or something. And it would kill her. And there was lead in makeup. and to me it's Elizabeth's battle armour. She wears it as battle armour.

3:23It's not vanity and queens are always accused of vanity but I did try a version of that sort of make-up for a television programme and oh, it makes the skin look good. I can see. Oh, I see now why they might have done it. We'll bear that in mind for the next Channel 5 documentary. Don't try this at home. Don't try this at home, everyone. But I can see why people used it and we're delighted by it. But that's how we're all united. We have all media horde in a Channel 5 documentary We have. We love that. We've all been on the same one. Indeed, we probably have. We were just saying sometimes they just pop up on a Saturday night.

3:55We're like, oh, look, it's me. But we're going to hone in on one particular future queen. We want to talk about Catherine because I think that Catherine is, I think she's a bit of an enigma. I think because she has only recently started making interventions and we know about her work on early childhood. And she's been quite like the late Queen Elizabeth in being economical with her words. And people look at her and they think she's this graceful figure and she's the secret weapon of the royal family. And I think we underestimate just how much pressure she's under. She's the wife of a future king.

4:29She's the mother of a future king. And we've never really probed, I think, what kind of queen she'll be. So just historically speaking, where does she fit in? What kind of figure is she really in royal circles compared with some of the queens, princesses, empresses of yesteryear? I think you're right, Camilla. She is an enigma. And one of the reasons why she's an enigma is because she has been in the royal spotlight from very early on. Because she didn't really have a chance to be out and about with different boyfriends or different jobs or travelling the world. or all these stories that might have been said about her, had, say, William met her when she was 30.

5:13She's been in the royal spotlight since she was really very young, since she was a teenager. And so she's also been hidden from us since she was a teenager because there was, remember, there wasn't there, there was that key deal that the royal family made with the press that they wouldn't cover William while he was at university, that they would be able to be in their own St. Andrew's bubble, which I'm not sure could ever happen again. I don't know. It couldn't happen again, could it? With Charlotte. Not with social media. With social media, exactly. I'm sure the press would say, yes, of course, we wouldn't cover, say, Charlotte or Louis at university.

5:45But everyone's got a camera phone. And so even if you didn't mean to photograph one of them, they'd be walking past in the background of your ball shot or your student union Friday night shot. So you can never happen again. So that unique moment by which the courtship was something we really didn't see. and then they were really so closely allied throughout the whole of her 20s means that she is I think very hidden she was hidden from public view then and when you become a royal you're also well you're you're you're very exposed to public view you're out and about you're being shown but also everything else is hidden we don't know the reality of the royals behind closed doors do you think that's part of the draw why she's so popular because we don't really know what she's like behind closed doors what we we don't know we don't see her doing any other way it's the royals I think learned their lesson from the 1969 documentary royal family which exposed the royal family was really popular at the time the royals were going shopping and doing this and that but it was too popular and it really had to be and it made them look too normal too normal you open the gates to magic and anything else can come through I think I think you know with Kate it is very much that she's seen I think with Kate I think there is this similarity as you were saying Camilla with the late queen with the economy of words and the fact that you don't hear the Kate and you didn't hear the queen speak much when the queen did speak it was very significant yes and so I but also even like she's never put a foot wrong should I quickly tell my Kate story which I've told many times before, but I got a measure of her when she was dumped by William.

7:26Do you remember that? The son had the story. The rowing, the rowing, yes. I was on the Sunday Express. I was then told, you've got to follow up on this, like phone her. So the son got the story. Yes. Duncan Larkham got the story and it was like they've broken up and we were like, what's going on here? Because they've been going out for years. Was that when he phoned her? Yes. And she spoke about it in the engagement interview. They admitted they did have this brief interlude where he thought maybe there were bigger fish in the sea or maybe there were other fish in the sea, I should say. And do you remember her behaviour?

7:54Her behaviour after that was to go out with an ex-boyfriend to bougies in a dress slashed to the navel. She was only out everywhere, wasn't she? And what about the disco with the green? I know. And the rowing team, rowing team. Exactly. I think I remember saying rowing team. She basically like wore her sexiest dress and clearly William went, I've made a catastrophic error here and came back running. But the point is, in the midst of all that, that weekend, I was told by the news desk, as people do, can you phone her? So somehow, I can't remember how somebody knew Pippa, who knew somebody, I got her telephone number.

8:25And I literally phoned her and went, hi, it's Camilla Tomini from the Sunday Express. You phoned her up? Yep. And she went, oh, hello. I said, listen, I've seen the story in the sun. I'm really sorry to bother you, but do you have any comment to make about this? Because I've been asked to try and follow up this story. And she just took a breath and she went, listen, I haven't ever commented about this relationship before. so I don't think I'm going to start now. And I like went, no, you're right. I was like, yeah, fair enough. And, you know, just thank you. And can I just say just good luck in life?

8:53You know, because I thought it was over. I thought it was over at the time. We all thought it was over. And I thought, oh, God, what a class act. She could have just hung up. She could have been very rude. Also, she's in the depths of despair. What am I thinking disturbing her at that time? She's probably got Carol with an E in the background going, don't answer the phone to any journalist. but the point is she is uh very serene another example we could cite is do you remember when the topless photographs emerged the whole of the press pack was in borneo looking at orangutans and climbing up trees genuinely i was up in the top of a rainforest canopy at one point and it was like oh my god this french magazine has published these topless photographs of her and shock horror photographs of kate smoking in the south of france she'd got out a packet of marlboro lights we were like who knew anyway all of the men were going completely bonkers like William went bonkers he was so furious we were trying to like listen in with our notebooks apparently the only person in the whole scene who was completely chill was Kate she was like yes they did sue the magazine and everything but she was like look it's happened like can everyone just calm down I then later said it was the best publicity she'd ever got because until that point she'd seen been seen as a bit old before her time they were both a bit boring Harry's the more interesting brother and then it It was like, oh, God, she's got her boobs out.

10:07She's smoking on a holiday. I mean, it was so exposing, wasn't it? Actually, that did make me nervous, that story, because I just thought if they can take a photo of her, this sounds a terrible thing to say, but could she be a security? Yes. Well, it must have been a thing. Could there be a security risk that they managed to take a photo of her? It seemed reasonably close range. And I think it was a family relative's house, wasn't it? Yes, it was. It was Princess Margaret. It was Lord Lynley's house. But do we think that tells us something about the kind of queen she's going to be, in that she's going to have a very calming influence?

10:40We see this, don't we, with Camilla Parker Bowles and the King, who can sometimes, a little bit like his son, be prone to anger or be stubborn. Come on, Camilla, come on, hurry up. Exactly. Or like, have a problem with a fountain pen. I see her as just keeping William under control. I think that sounds a bit like he's submissive. I don't think he is. I think he's got a strong character in his own right. But I think she is just a calming influence over the entire royal family, not least in the aftermath of Megxit. What do you think, Kate? I think that she is a very calm person, and that I think is very revelatory.

11:12I haven't heard that story before about when you called her up, and she said, well, I haven't commented on it before. It seems such a rational thing to say, as if someone you would ask your lawyer to say for you, rather than, oh no, come on, it's terrible, how can you be phoning me? No, exactly. She had her emotions firmly in check. And that's it, isn't it? She had her emotions firmly in check. And that has been, Kate, throughout the period. That's, I think, where she's most enigmatic to us. I think it's the emotions because we don't see them. And I think it's very much in the mould of the late queen.

11:46The late queen came to the throne in the 50s when women were being sent back to the home. They'd been out working during World War II. She came to the throne during the 50s. Churchill burst into tears saying she was a child and had to be reassured that she was hardworking and attractive. And it really was a man's world. Even the Lancet said, maybe a woman with children can't really do this job because women did work, but mostly single women. Most women gave up on marriage and many women gave up on getting pregnant. And here was the queen. And she really, I think, created this power in the man's world by having qualities that might be associated with women such as duty and service and being judicious with words but turning them into her superpower and became such a powerful figure and I think Kate very much is in that mold I think she when you saw her with the late queen say for example when they went to see her wedding dress there seemed to be this real connection and certainly I've read comments I mean I'm not an insider like you two I've read comments that William liked someone who was very calm after everything he'd been through the horrors of Diana that you know the death of Diana everything he'd experienced I mean when we think he met Kate really not long after Diana's death in terms of when we think about a time scale how long it takes to get over the death of a parent so I think she did seem like a rock in storm that he'd been through a publicity of the the horrors of losing your mother and that's her strength and I think it's always been so powerful for him and the wider royal family I think she's she was always saying that wasn't yes it was the case wasn't it that I believe you you you two know better than me that Prince Philip said to William um you you can't keep her waiting you can't keep her waiting marry much longer yes either you marry her or you set her free because this is her 20s but this this is the distinction isn't it between her and the late queen who seem to be rather hands-off as a mother that actually Kate's maternal nature yeah she's demonstrated it through her work with the early year stuff but don't you think there has been a change since the cancer diagnosis I'm thinking about the gladiator video where she put her hand through the week absolutely yes walking through the woods I think I was just about to say I actually think her as mysterious as she is as a public figure a lot of people couldn't really relate to her because of the motherhood element and the family prioritising family life and doing the school run and turning up at sports matches and making sure they're always together in school holidays.

14:20And I think in that sense, people can relate to her more than probably the late queen because she is first and foremost a mother and is made clear that she wants to prioritise that over many other things. Yeah, she could appeal to the modern woman. I mean, it's hard to, I think most working women who are juggling all sorts of different schedules and running around madly without any staff or any help wouldn't quite equate her on that level. But what I think has been interesting is since the cancer diagnosis, how demonstrative they've both been towards each other. I mean, we used to cover jobs. A case on Twitter.

14:56Exactly. They're rolling around in the hay or something. But I say that because when they first started out, we had no hand-holding. We had a moment. They were quite stiff, weren't they? We had a moment, I remember, in Canada during a dragon boat race where they embraced and it was like, oh my god this is amazing we had a moment at the london olympics in 2012 where they embraced in the velodrome they were the only two pictures of them the next thing we know kate they're recording sort of you know radio interviews and hollywood style footage of them with their children kissing and cuddling rolling around in the grass but i mean the cancer the cancer diagnosis does seem to have brought something out in her that she wants to share with the public don't you think i think that's true and the video when she was wearing the blue h &m dress and they were in norfolk i i believe they were in norfolk weren't they and it's this family all together and certainly i think that a diagnosis like that is going to affect anyone it makes you reassess your priorities i'm sure and i'm sure she feels the same way and her children are growing up fast and she wants to spend this time with them she's always been a hands-on mother and we can say compare with the late queen it's different the late queen was had to be queen and also was really couldn't be as to seen as a working mother because she was a woman in a man's world but in kate as a cons as a future queen consort so her role is different but at the same time i think that fact that she is doing the school run and we understand that she is very active in school community and does all the the parts of the school life and we we are we obviously we're obviously going to see in september where George goes to school.

16:34There has been all kinds of suggestions that she may break more protocol in terms of where she goes to school. Yeah. My money was on Eton, but I don't know now. I mean, who knows? But yes, Kate, we're not allowed to speculate. And I think that it's very clear that motherhood comes first for her and that perhaps that's something that she hasn't felt able to show in the public way. And now since the cancer diagnosis, she really wants to make that clear. It's changed her whole perspective on life. hasn't it I think and this emphasis on nature and and kind of connecting with nature in a way that she didn't really used to speak about much before it's very much something the king talked about wasn't it but not necessarily her and now that's become do you remember she did the four seasons video essentially she did a spring summer autumn winter video where she talked about the importance of nature and connecting with nature yes it's not something she'd have done pre-cancel I don't think No.

17:26Also, I think there's this impression of her, because of her immaculate wardrobe and everything, that she seems quite urban, when actually I think she's just more of a country girl. Oh, absolutely. And she wants to be in her wellies and she wants to be gardening and out and about. But to answer the question, finally, Kate, of what kind of queen will she be? Appreciating that, as you say, it's completely different to Queen Elizabeth because she's a consort, not the actual monarch. but what what what would give us some adjectives as to how you think she might approach this really quite important job I think she'd make a pretty good actual monarch if she were in the line of succession I think she'd make a rather powerful one but she is a consort and she will be backing William up and as we know with queen consorts like Queen Camilla she'll be crowned with William in the coronation ceremony so we will see her in a coronation ceremony like Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, but Elizabeth II was crowned alone.

18:20And I think she will be a very strong voice as Queen. I think she's going to be someone who puts forward these key points about early childhood education, about nature. And we've seen her voice grow and grow, I think. I think we did see her voice really get much stronger when she became Princess of Wales, that she took on that title with absolute confidence she absolutely became the next princess of wales since diana people were worried can anyone replace diana and then everyone accepted well this is a completely different woman and of course she can occupy that title and she made it very clear she wanted to do things differently and create her own path as princess of wales yes which was important she wasn't she hasn't tried to emulate her mother-in-law in no and start getting involved in the aids very much landminding paying a quiet tribute and i think it's interesting i mean she on that the title of Princess of Wales it was assumed almost immediately wasn't it?

19:18Straight away on the royal family bios it was very quick and that I think has really seen her come into her own with the cancer diagnosis and her voice speaking and we really see her come into her own since the Princess of Wales title I think because it is a title it's a powerful important title. She's occupying it. And she is the future queen. And I think as queen consort, we're always told that she supports William. She feels that her role is to support the children, support William. And when you look at the history of queen consorts, it's very interesting. There are some medieval conduct books about how a queen consort should behave.

19:55And there's a lot about supporting your husband and agreeing with your husband and being a good mother, and also creating a good, polite cultural court. Obviously, the centre of the world is the court to the medieval times. It's a bit different now. But at the same time, there is this idea that it is the Queen's role to really speak to the King about those she feels are suffering in society. And that was something that Henry VIII didn't want. He absolutely wouldn't let Anne Boleyn talk about the monastic people, the monks and the nuns who'd been lost their monasteries. And she felt that the monastic land should go to charity.

20:32He wasn't having that. And then he executes Anne Boleyn, day after he's executed Anne Boleyn, he marries Jane Seymour. And Jane Seymour, she tries to speak to Henry VIII and say, oh, don't be so harsh on these people. He says, oh, don't say that. You know, what happened to the other one? So he won't have that role of the Queen Consort. But I think it's always been a role of the Queen Consort. And I think that's one that Kate will take on as well, probably behind the scenes. But your role is as a calm moment of strength. And the Queen Mother we might think of as an example as well, before she became puffed and puffed in pink.

21:07You know, she was a really sort of strong person behind the throne. And George VI used to get these terrible rages, very angry. And she'd say, oh, Bertie, you can't kill them all. And calm him down with humour. And Kate is, I think, a very intelligent, very calm woman. And she also, we can see that Kate plays a long game. She looks long term in every way. and not everyone does around her. And I think that's why she's particularly has a strong voice because she sees the future. She sees not just next year, but 10 years, 20 years in advance. Do you think she has more power and influence behind the scenes than we necessarily realise now?

21:49Or in the future, do you think she'll have a lot more influence as consort than perhaps others in the past might have done? I think she does have a lot of power behind the scenes. I think particularly because she and William have this very close relationship living in a house together. So they do. I think I think Kate does have a lot of power behind the scenes, not just with William. But I think also Charles is very fond of her. We remember that they were both in hospital together. And it was said, wasn't it, that he used to come out of his hospital room to pop down to go and make her feel better, to give her some comfort.

22:21Yes. I think I think she does have a lot of influence and power behind the scenes. And also, Kate has been a very strong woman throughout all these years. She was called all these things, weighty Katie. No one said weighty William, did they? It was all so sexist. No, it was all about her. It was all about her. It was very cruel. Weighty Katie, her family were mocked. Things like working for British Airways, which is such a respect. Great job. I love British Airways. Her family were mocked. There were all kinds of things said, photos were exposed. Oh, yes, Gary, Uncle Gary. Uncle Gary with Maison to Bang Bang.

22:54And the poor thing, you know, one night at a student fashion show, I know the photo is great, but how many of us were in some student fashion show or student dress up parade? Not looking like that. Then she gets trashed by Harry and Meghan. And so I once read a very interesting comment about the strength it takes to be number two. Because we all think the strength about being number one, but it takes a lot of strength to be number two and to walk a couple of steps behind in a metaphoric sense. Because in the end, everyone wants to meet Kate of course it's like Charles and Diana if William and Kate split up people love to meet William but they're thrilled to meet Kate but in a political sense in a constitutional sense she is what number two that's part of our popularity though isn't it because she doesn't want to she doesn't exude this desire to be number one and not overshadow William she's happy to support she has every reason to be a show of and isn't yeah exactly So I think we can conclude literally and figuratively she is the power behind the throne, Kate Williams.

23:55I agree. Now, we never know. We can't see the future like Kate. It may be that she'll suddenly, as soon as she becomes queen, start wearing orange, jumping around, cheering on Arsenal. Who knows? It may be a totally different world. We don't know what's really going to happen. But our expectation, I think, is that she'll continue supporting the king, supporting the royal family, and she'll see that as her key role and shaping the next king, King George. I don't think, unless we all cryogenically freeze ourselves, we'll ever see another queen regnant on the throne in our lifetimes, unless there's some amazing medicine we can all take and live forever.

24:31But we will see this powerful queen consort who is the quiet strength behind the throne. Kate Williams thank you very much indeed and your new book Regina A New History of Women and Power is published now it's out now I'm just checking my watch it's out now it's been out for a week get it from all good bookshops and thank you for joining us both on the Royal Tea thank you Kate

25:08Thank you.

25:38that never sacrifices performance. Enjoy customizable features for elevated comfort and convenience. It's more than a fixture. It's a cleaner routine and a more refined space. Experience the difference of Kohler smart toilets. Find more at Kohler.com. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. with Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts. You can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done.

26:17Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.