‘Labour is the paedo defender party’: Starmer faces brutal verdict ahead of by-election

0:03Tim Montgomerie: The Telegraph.

0:10Tim Montgomerie: Labour is the paedot defender party. Kemi Bade knocks brutal verdict at PMQs as Keir Starmer faces a crucial by-election.

0:19Camilla Tominey: And I have been to Gorton and Denton where I try to track down Zach Polanski but he wouldn't talk to me.

0:26Tim Montgomerie: Welcome to The Daily Tea with me Camilla Tominey.

0:29Camilla Tominey: And me, Tim Stanley.

0:40Tim Montgomerie: Tim, you're fresh from Gorton and Denton and PMQs. I'm fresh from The Orthodontist, where my youngest had train tracks fitted on both the upper and lower. I know. I had train tracks once when I had to do American telly. And I planned to go to The Orthodontist. And I said to the woman, the head of talent there, a woman called Elena, wonderful lady who recruited me to do royal coverage in America. And I said to her, oh, you'll be pleased to know that I am going to get my teeth sorted out. She goes, yeah, you need to get that whole tap row sorted. I said, I'm talking about my bottom teeth.

1:16Camilla Tominey: So wait, you have British teeth and the Americans insisted upon you straightening them.

1:19Tim Montgomerie: Yeah. Well, I didn't get the I've had braces, believe it or not. But like, you know, my teeth are quite lefties like to describe me as looking like a horse. This is I think is hard.

1:29Camilla Tominey: That's horrible. That's not true. But this is the difference between men and women on television. You have to consider teeth. For me, the debate is, do I wear a tie or not?

1:37Tim Montgomerie: That's right. Although you would have loved the American approach because like the hairdressing in the morning is like nothing you've ever known in your life. And also, curiously, they call it a blowjob. So you're booked for your blowjob at 5 a.m. I was like, goodness, is this in the contract?

1:50Camilla Tominey: There are some MPs, and I'm tempted to name them, who will use going on Newsnight or Politics Live as a chance to have a makeover.

1:59Tim Montgomerie: Yes, to be fair.

2:01Camilla Tominey: They're in there for about 30 minutes.

2:03Tim Montgomerie: Can I just say that one said female MP, Labour, won't name her. I think I know exactly who that is. Was there for at least an hour before I arrived, just for a little touch up. We're getting off subject here. Right, we're going to get on to Ewan Gorton and Denton chasing down Zach Polanski. Not with much success, it must be conceded. in just a minute, but PMQs, best line of PMQs, was it Kemi? Was it Kemi saying this? Mr Speaker, I am amazed that while we're trying to talk about student loans, the Prime Minister has the cheek to talk about my party being smaller.

2:36Camilla Tominey: His party is smaller too, including one MP who was arrested for child sex offences. So perhaps before he gets on his high horse, he should ask why his backbenchers are saying that they're being called the paedo-defenders party. Yes, yes.

2:50Tim Montgomerie: So why don't we get back? So if he... Yes, sir. I didn't say it.

2:56Camilla Tominey: Labour was genuinely offended at that, and I can't blame them. Nonetheless, it cut, and it cut deep. PMQs played out as a party political broadcast for the Gaunton and Denton by-election. The Labour whips had gone around and placed questions so that people could ask things that Starmer could then turn it upside down and turn it into an attack either on the Greens or reform. So to give an example, in answer to a question about drugs, he said this. Can I thank him for raising that? We are working relentlessly to tackle the supply of illegal drugs and expanding police powers to test more suspects upon arrest.

3:40Camilla Tominey: The Green Party's policy isn't just irresponsible, it's reprehensible. legalising, Mr Speaker, cocaine, heroin, ketamine and the date rape drug GHB, a drug which we know is used to spike drinks for women. Now, whilst we're making that an offence, the Green Party's proposals would shatter lives, increase antisocial behaviour and see drugs use running rife. And I have to say, as the father of a 17-and-a-half-year-old son, the idea that the argument is being made by the Greens, that when he turns 18 in just a few months, it would be lawful to provide him with heroin and crack cocaine is absolutely disgusting.

4:26Tim Montgomerie: And Nigel Farage was, funnily enough, having bobbed and bobbed and bobbed at PMQs and never been called, sometimes he doesn't even bother to go, Keir Starmer had him firmly in his sights.

4:39Camilla Tominey: But, Mr Speaker, I also have to raise this. a death threat was shared by Reform's Deputy Council Leader in Lancashire against the brilliant member for Bolsover. It said she should be shot. When death threats were made against the member for Clacton, I stood at this dispatch box and condemned them outright. If he has any decency or backbone, he will stand up, apologise, condemn the comments and sack the individual in his parties. Will he do so? Nigel needs to work on what he does when he's being insulted. It's not his fault. He doesn't really have a right of reply. Although he did immediately then ask a question and chose not to comment on what he'd been asked about.

5:36Camilla Tominey: But while the Prime Minister is slagging him off, Nigel has a habit of sitting there and just nodding. I think it's meant sardonically, as in carry on, get on with it, but it can come across as though he's saying, yes, it's a death threat. That's exactly what we need in politics.

5:51Tim Montgomerie: I know, although I think most objective observers saw it for exactly what it was, which was a cynical ploy by the Prime Minister. Oh, exactly cynical. To just sully his name in Parliament one day out from everyone going to the polls in Greater Manchester.

6:04Camilla Tominey: This is, we'll get on to the by-election, but it's one of the bitterest because both sides are suggesting that the other side is thoroughly corrupt.

6:13Tim Montgomerie: Yes.

6:14Camilla Tominey: And that if they won, there would be a civil war in Britain. Good Lord. That's the vibe that both are putting out. There was one other detail to this party political broadcast, which was the first question from a Labour MP was about Palestine. and Starmer delivered a classically tortured, wordy response that you just know is going to be translated into several languages and distributed in Gordon and Denton.

6:41Tim Montgomerie: The Urdu leaflets are being printed as we speak. And then again, I don't know whether it was contrived or not, but we then had the hard left Labour backbencher, Imran Hussein, stand up and start talking about the persecution of Muslims in this country, pointing to the Reform Party, gesticulating, and basically saying that they were responsible for stoking Islamophobia in the UK. Mr Speaker, violent and Islamophobic attacks against the Muslim community are becoming far too frequent in our country. Amen. Prime Minister, is it not the case that every single politician in this place, and I mean every politician, especially that lot over there?

7:39Tim Montgomerie: Mr Speaker, they may nod their heads, but this morning we could have woken up to a horrific terrorist attack, killing innocent Muslim worshippers only for being Muslim. Prime Minister, is it not the case that every single politician in this place and every single journalist has a responsibility to stop flaming, funning the flames of hatred against the Muslim community?

8:10Camilla Tominey: It's interesting how there are different takes in this by-election on the nature of diversity and unity. So reform's whole line is, we talk to everyone in this constituency, we don't see race and we don't believe that we should be having sectarian conversations. The left-wing take on diversity and unity is diversity is unity. And because we talk to people in different languages and because we celebrate their religions, that's the sort of thing that brings us together. And you can see Labour leaning into that in this edition of PMQs. With Starmer visiting the by-election, you sense that they think they might win it or even place second.

8:46Tim Montgomerie: So why do we think he was that last minute that he just turned up?

8:51Camilla Tominey: It surprised everyone. But we'll talk about the by-election in the moment. We can't help but talk about it because, as I say, this entire PMQs was a choreographed opportunity for the prime minister to speak directly to the voters in Gorton and Denton. But to bring it back to Kemi, she had a substantive point to make about the appalling rates of interest and debt that students accrue and why the government is not acting on it. Mr Speaker, before the Prime Minister and I became MPs, parties of every colour increased the cost of going to university. The system is now at breaking point for graduates.

9:28Tim Montgomerie: I believe the student loans have become a debt trap. It is time for all of us to do something about it.

9:35Camilla Tominey: Will he cut interest rates on student loans?

9:41Tim Montgomerie: Tim, was she right to go in on student debt today? I mean, is that their own appeal to younger people? I mean, am I reading too much into it? Are they trying to appeal to the youth of Gortland Denton?

9:53Camilla Tominey: I think they genuinely care about it, but it comes off the back of an appearance on a morning television programme. Yes. Which one is it?

10:00Tim Montgomerie: It's Good Morning Britain, and she had a bun fight with Martin Lewis. That's right. And I think actually the verdict on that was at a dinner last night with various different media types, and they said, what was Lewis doing? He basically hijacked her interview.

10:14Camilla Tominey: He walked onto the set and started shouting at her.

10:17Tim Montgomerie: Ridiculous.

10:17Camilla Tominey: And then Ed Ball started shouting at him. And at one point, the two men were having a conversation and completely excluded the woman who was on to talk about it.

10:25Tim Montgomerie: And she actually pointed that out. She said, hang on a minute, stop talking over me.

10:28Camilla Tominey: You're talking over me, exactly. She handled herself really well. She did.

10:32Tim Montgomerie: And it's those little viral moments that are really helping her out. But don't you think it was cutting because there is an element of truth in it to conservatives when the Prime Minister said this?

10:44Camilla Tominey: Yet again she's shown why she is so utterly irrelevant. Harping, harping from the sidelines, trying to talk down the economy.

10:59Tim Montgomerie: I mean, he is just so patronising.

11:05Camilla Tominey: He is.

11:05Tim Montgomerie: And dreadful. He makes my skin crawl when he comes out with this stuff.

11:09Camilla Tominey: And remember when he said something similar to the leader of Plaid in Westminster and was then later forced to apologise. And then it does tend to be that female members of the Cabinet get sacked. And there was the infamous incident when the Chancellor was crying next to him and he didn't notice. Okay, so we'd rather not notice gender, but it is a pattern that some people are picking up on. Also, you'll recall in previous weeks there was talk about, is his hand shaking?

11:37Tim Montgomerie: Yeah, is it?

11:38Camilla Tominey: I dismissed it as an issue because I think it's unfair. It's a frightening thing to do PMQs, and I don't think we should be focusing too much on little ticks like that. But now it's been mentioned, I can't help but notice it. I think the tremor is in both hands. I think he's terrified.

11:54Tim Montgomerie: Really?

11:54Camilla Tominey: I don't think it's a neurological thing. I couldn't help but notice it this time around.

11:59Tim Montgomerie: And equivalently, actually, Kemi Beidnock is there looking quite nonchalant. She is looking so much more relaxed, maybe a little too relaxed.

12:10Camilla Tominey: Oh, she has the hands of the Ripper, psychopath hands, just totally still.

12:15Tim Montgomerie: So she is completely contained. But then this is also, in a way, part of her problem, right? She is school-marmish and in control of the class and therefore can be accused of lacking warmth. Is that a problem? Lacking charm. I don't know.

12:33Camilla Tominey: I'm not sure it is.

12:34Tim Montgomerie: She could be the only safe pair of hands in the room right now, frankly.

12:37Camilla Tominey: I don't think this is an era where people care about charm or warmth or empathy, as the left likes to call it. I think people are so angry about everything that they really want someone who sounds like they mean business.

12:48Tim Montgomerie: No, fair enough. Now, what was also interesting, I ask about should she have gone on student debt? Of course, it's a really important issue. But we have got the Peter Mandelson saga hanging around in the background. It may have been a calculation. Look, we've got this admission from Lindsay Hoyle that he was the one who said to the police that he was concerned a former Labour peer might be a flight risk.

13:12Camilla Tominey: He began the day's Parliament by giving a statement about that. Members will be aware of comments in the media

13:19Tim Montgomerie: regarding the arrest of Lord Mandelson. To prevent any inaccurate speculation, I'd like to confirm that upon receipt of information that I felt it was relevant, I passed this on to the Metropolitan Police in good faith, as is my duty and responsibility. It is regrettable this rapidly ended in the media, as this is a live investigation. Members will understand that it would not be appropriate to make any further comment, and I'd like to caution members from doing so. The Tories may have calculated we're going to have Mandelson and Epstein dominating the headlines for days to come. So let's just do serious politics and talk about university students saddled with tens of thousands of pounds in debt.

14:11Tim Montgomerie: Fair enough. And I'm looking now, Tim, top of our news ticker. What's the most read story on the Telegraph online right now? It is Poppy Wood's exclusive headline revealed the contents of Epstein's secret storage locker.

14:26Camilla Tominey: Which are revealed to include sex slave manuals, videotapes and large number of photographs such as a picture of a young Prince Andrew and a portrait of a woman resembling Gill and Maxwell. Also piles of cash, diamonds, gold and a trove of international passports and other identification.

14:45Tim Montgomerie: Associates tried to clear out the lockers after Epstein's arrest to keep the content secret from the FBI. Funny that. By the way, I'd love to have a deposit box, like in the movies. Shall we get some daily tea memorabilia and put it in a deposit box somewhere?

15:04Camilla Tominey: That's more like the Blue Peters.

15:05Tim Montgomerie: Oh, yeah, that's like burying a time capsule. Put a teapot in there, a tea cosy, your hair gel, my hairspray. You can read Poppy Wood's story on the Telegraph website. It's very, very good. Worth reading.

15:19Camilla Tominey: I've seen a video of his old plane, the Lolita Express, which has been mothballed and it contained bottles of baby lotion. Oh, I know.

15:28Tim Montgomerie: Also, you made this point earlier. These people flew on a plane.

15:33Camilla Tominey: Called the Lolita Express. I know, I know.

15:38Tim Montgomerie: The clue's in the name, guys.

15:40Camilla Tominey: Aside from calling it the pedo jet, there really is pretty obvious what you are getting onto there. The pedo rocket. I know, I know. Anyway, so we have... This will all come out in the wash.

15:48Tim Montgomerie: So we have Lindsay Hoyle making his little intervention.

15:52Camilla Tominey: Because he had visited the Virgin Islands during recess. And he says that while he was there, someone told him that they believed Mandelson was going to go to the islands. He felt obliged to pass that on to the police. And the police then spoke to that source and clearly concluded that he was a risk too. I'm saying this because Mandelson's lawyer has stated that the idea that he was ever going to flee was nonsense.

16:20Tim Montgomerie: Baseless, he said.

16:21Camilla Tominey: But I want to emphasise that Hoyle got it from another source and that the police did speak to that source before they then spoke to Mandelson. And Mandelson has now been required to surrender his passport as part of his bail conditions.

16:36Tim Montgomerie: For balance, let's read the statement from the spokesman. The arrest was prompted by a baseless suggestion that he was planning to leave the country and take up permanent residence abroad. There is absolutely no truth whatsoever in any such suggestion. We have asked the MPs for the evidence relied upon to justify the arrest. Peter Mandelson's overriding priority is to cooperate with the police investigation, as he has done throughout this process, and to clear his name.

17:01Camilla Tominey: Because he has, throughout, been totally open, hasn't he? Clearly, every stage of his career, he's been forthcoming about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, hasn't he?

17:13Tim Montgomerie: I think what's interesting is the files that are being held back by the Cabinet Office on the proviso that they may be prejudicial to any future trial if they're published is interesting. I am sceptical about the... I can understand files relating to his conduct when he was Business Secretary in the noughties being prejudicial, because this is about misconduct in public office in relation to leaked documents to Epstein while he was alive.

17:40Camilla Tominey: But we're interested in the vetting process during the second stage of his career when he was resurrected as ambassador.

17:45Tim Montgomerie: My very great suspicion is that the vetting process was literally, is your name Peter? I mean, we've discussed this. Do you know where Washington DC is?

17:56Camilla Tominey: Yes.

17:57Tim Montgomerie: Can you name the US president? Here's your plane ticket.

18:01Camilla Tominey: Yes.

18:01Tim Montgomerie: So that's going to be revealed. and obviously Morgan McSweeney's role in it, which in turn taints the Prime Minister in terms of judgment, lack of ability to be across the detail of who is being appointed to the most crucial and significant diplomatic post in the land, historic ties. Can I also make one point? We discussed Gordon Brown having a revival. Why is Tony Blair escaping scrutiny on this? As a documentary is made about how great he was, I find this incredible.

18:33Camilla Tominey: Well, it has been reported that during the Blair administration, when Prince Andrew was appointed trade envoy, the king was actually against it. Who was lobbying for it? Peter Mandelson. Yes. King lost that fight. Peter Mandelson won it.

18:46Tim Montgomerie: Yeah.

18:47Camilla Tominey: Again, I'm not suggesting any connection between Mandy and Andy or anything like that, but it comes back to this issue of political judgment. Tony Blair famously said that the Labour Party will have changed when it has come to learn to love Peter Mandelson.

19:03Tim Montgomerie: Yes.

19:04Camilla Tominey: That in itself is such an insulting comment upon New Labour. It's why I never liked it at the time. This patronising idea to the socialist movement and the Labour movement that you've got to learn to love. Yes.

19:15Tim Montgomerie: Come away from your commie ideals and lean into Peter Mandelson.

19:20Camilla Tominey: This very unpleasant kind of pseudo, almost Tory figure. You've got to learn to love him. But nonetheless, it all comes back to this issue of political judgment being shown by people. could you not see that the appointment of Prince Andrew was something that wasn't wise? Yeah. In the same way that Keir Starmer, whatever the vetting was, whatever you were told, including by Mandelson, who I think has been demonstrated to be a liar in the past, why would you say, yes, go ahead, let's appoint him? But my question is, do we think Mandelson could afford to flee to the Virgin Islands? It's not a cheap place to go to.

19:54Camilla Tominey: No.

19:55Tim Montgomerie: So all income streams have been cut off. Global Council, the sort of lobbying organisation that was pretty formidable and had some extremely high net worth clients. That's gone into administration. He's servicing different properties, isn't he? He's got the property in North London, in Camden. He's got the property that he's renting in Wiltshire. I can't imagine that's going to continue. Why would it? How could it? His husband, Ronaldo, is from Brazil, so maybe that was at the back of their minds. Would they want to both flee there? Having said that, the other thing about this, of course, is with our sclerotic legal system, him cooperating with the police in their inquiries could go on not just for months, but years.

20:40Tim Montgomerie: And that's why we've also reported this week that this release of files, should there be some deemed to be prejudicial to any future trial, therefore might not come out until the next parliament. Will Keir Starmer be prime minister then? what will it all mean so this is going to take years and years and years which is the other thing so I suppose that's why they're looking at him being a flight risk.

21:02Camilla Tominey: And the word on the street is that Mandelson has lawyered up in a way that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor has not.

21:07Tim Montgomerie: Yes, he's got Mishkondorea by his side who are very formidable and phenomenal legal outfit in London and he's also got this extremely highly respected KC, Adrian Derbyshire, to take on his case intriguingly, Derbyshire represented Boris Johnson back in 2019. Right. It was a Brexit-related case. Johnson brought an urgent judicial review when a magistrate issued three summonses against him for alleged misconduct in public office. And he fought that claim and won. So, yes, he's got a very formidable legal team alongside him, whereas Andrew, I'm not quite sure who's representing him these days. In fact, it's been a subject of discussion in this newsroom.

21:50So, what do we think?

21:52Tim Montgomerie: What's our verdict on PMQs then? I mean, if he manages to turn it into a Labour Party broadcast ahead of a crucial by-election, then he's won it, hasn't it?

22:02Camilla Tominey: It all comes back to Gorton and Denton. And I think there are a couple of factors in his favour. One is that visit we discussed, which suggests they may have data, which is positive. Another is that the sun has come out. I don't know about you, but this is the first day in a long time where I haven't felt like throwing myself off a cliff. Yes. And that's because we can finally see sun and blue sky. It's amazing. And there might be a lifting of mood. And I would say, judging on the Prime Minister's general attitude at the beginning of PMQs and on the more bouncy quality of the backbenchers, Labour, for the first time in a long time, looks like it's a bit hopeful about something.

22:37Camilla Tominey: So I think Labour is gambling a lot on a good result on Thursday.

22:42Tim Montgomerie: Well, you were in Gorton and Denton yesterday. Coming up, we're going to be discussing whether Keir Starmer's hopes might be dashed.

23:00Camilla Tominey: I went to Gorton principally to try and talk to Zach Polanski. I went there the night before. My video team bumped into him on the train coming up that morning. They tried to speak to him and he didn't want to. We said, can we meet you later on on the campaign trail? And he proved as elusive as Bigfoot. Here's what happened. Hello, I'm in Gorton and Denton, the constituency where there is a tightly fought by-election. I'm standing outside the Green headquarters in the Gorton area, and very nice it is too. And this leaflet that they're putting out is why this by-election is being so closely followed.

23:36Camilla Tominey: This one, helpfully, is in English. Some of them are in Urdu. And it shows, it suggests, that Green is in first place, Reform in second, and Labour in third. but Keir Starmer recently visited the constituency suggesting that Labour believes it could be the party that will beat reform. I'm going to try and get a word with Zach Polanski to ask him how the campaign's going and what he thinks about the state of Britain. There are still so many undecideds and ultimately our job is to go to speak to all of those undecideds and make them know Green versus Reform, Reform is the politics of hate and revision, Greens is the politics of folks with a plan.

24:10Camilla Tominey: Let's get a hammer over the line. Thank you very much.

24:18Camilla Tominey: We have tried very, very hard to get an interview with Zach Glansky, who it seems to me will speak to anyone else in the world except me. His team are very, very nice. They insist that you must get a booking, but it seems hard to get a booking. It's like trying to get into a very good restaurant, isn't it? I stood close to him. I poised to say hello, but at that moment his press person stepped between us. I was body blocked by a young lady. We followed him outside. We watched him give someone else an interview, and then we followed him down here because we thought we might see him do some canvassing and watched him get into a car and drive away.

24:54Camilla Tominey: As far as I'm concerned, this by-election is like the Iraq War, the first Gulf War. It never happened. It is a post-modern by-election. I haven't seen it. I don't believe in it. I don't actually think it's even taking place. I noticed when talking to the Green People, they were almost all white. Palestine, it features in the literature, but it's not something they ram down your throats. Speaking to the activists, they said that what matters to people around here is what matters to everyone else, which is antisocial behavior, graffiti, crime, and most importantly, the cost of living. We listened to the lovely candidate Hannah Spencer give a speech when she talked about what people have in common, how they mustn't be divided, all that sort of stuff.

25:43I felt there was a lot of good intent and well-meaning there.

25:47Camilla Tominey: I always think with every by-election that there's a temptation to read too much into what is a really very local fight, where turnout will probably be very low, and it's all about getting your people out. And it was interesting to hear the Greens make the point that the reform voters are mobilized. They are very keen voters, and that's how reform could win, even if it's only stuck at around 30%. And it's all about trying to persuade Labour voters that Greens are the only ones who can beat them, because I am told that's another thing that comes up on the doorstep. A lot of people in this area just want to do anything to stop Nigel Farage.

26:23Camilla Tominey: I'm going to stop talking before I throw up. We follow the trail of Zakers Polanskis to this beautiful park in Gorton, where he is not at. Still don't know where he is. I refuse to give up. But I will say, reformers painted this constituency as the hub of sectarian divide in a modern British hell. I'd say I rather like it. It's very clean, the people are friendly, you can get a three-bed house for 270 grand, and one house on Chapel Street had an abandoned porcelain toilet in the front garden. All mod cons. We're going to keep trying. The hunt continues. Well, it's now about 2.15 and we've been on a completely fruitless hunt for Zach Polanski for just over two hours.

27:12Camilla Tominey: This is the spot where he was last seen before a flying saucer picked him up and whisked him away. We did try and speak to some green activists. One of them asked which newspaper we were with and then he said, absolutely f***ing not.

27:29Camilla Tominey: That's it. We've given up. Zach Polanski is nowhere to be found. Last seen somewhere near Loch Ness, we know that he has spoken to the Times, to the Guardian, not to the Daily Telegraph. He's even spoken to the New Musical Express. So we can't tell you anything, but according to the NME, his favourite song from the last year was Messy by Lola Young. When you do these things, we can just tell that in your heart of hearts, you could have been a

27:59Tim Montgomerie: thespian you could have been a comedian you chose you chose academia and it was a respectable thing to do tim stanley but let's be honest you are in your element touring gorton and denton with a daily

28:12Camilla Tominey: tea mic well i as as our cameraman will said zach polanski will speak to the nme but not the enemy no that's right well done oh hello will his job is words as well as holding cameras and filming

28:28Tim Montgomerie: Great footage. Well done. And to John, because I love the splicing of the music.

28:32Camilla Tominey: Yes. No, no, John did a great job too. And he did the driving.

28:36Tim Montgomerie: He did the driving while you really threw off in the back.

28:37Camilla Tominey: Contra what Reform says, the only real way in which Gordon looks like Afghanistan is the roads.

28:44Tim Montgomerie: Yeah.

28:44Camilla Tominey: Because it's as if they've been hit by a mortar attack. The potholes are so terrible. And I do want to say something about the state of the nation. Ooh. One of the benefits of doing by-elections is you get out of the Westminster bubble and you get to meet the punters. And what you find is that people know less than you think and more than you think. Yes. So we interviewed one woman who was voting green the first time she'd ever voted in her life. And she was going to do so because they had come into her cafe and they bought some teas and sandwiches and they were very nice. She didn't know who Zach Polanski was.

29:18Camilla Tominey: She couldn't tell you what any green policies were. But over the course of the conversation, so that's how little she knows. And by the way, why should she know all that? I couldn't tell you who the centre forward is for Arsenal because I'm not interested in football. That's right. And most people are not interested in politics. But if you talk to such people, you find they have a depth of experience and understanding of the state of the economy and society, which is much better than in Westminster. And what you find is things are OK. The country isn't as bad as sometimes the headlines make out.

29:51Tim Montgomerie: It's broken. Everything's broken.

29:53Camilla Tominey: And people rub along OK. They get on okay. But you will find that socially they are anxious about things like knife crime. Maybe academically the murder numbers are down. Maybe we can prove that with statistics. But there's a lot of worry about young men getting into fights and getting into trouble. And on the economy, there is a sense again of anxiety about, can I make a profit? Will my wages pay my rent? Is my rent going to go up? This is something the Greens were talking about. I was really struck. So many of the Greens did not talk to me about the environment. That never was mentioned. And Gaza was only mentioned in passing.

30:29Camilla Tominey: It was things like, I can't afford my rent. My landlord is screwing me. Things like that. And I feel that what a lot of people want is they want a sense of security and they just want their area to look and feel a bit better than it does. Yeah.

30:45Tim Montgomerie: They probably also, by the way, want those roads repaired. Yeah, they do.

30:49Camilla Tominey: And they want rubbish cleaned up. They want graffiti tape. Do your job. And the government, to its credit, is trying to address this with its Pride in Place programme, where it's giving large grants to local areas and letting them spend it as they wish to. That's a very good idea. But again, coming from the southeast, you know, I live in a lovely town with a theatre and a cinema and a market twice a week. We don't appreciate how a lot of provincial areas, it just feels as though there is no public centre to them. What you do see, which I always find fascinating in Midlands areas, is that the Asian community functions as a community, or at least is more visible as a community, more so than white people are.

31:32Camilla Tominey: The number of shops you see, which are in Urdu or Bengali, whatever the language is, the shops which advertise trips to the Hajj, to do the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca, the mosques, the community centers. I know that that can accelerate that sense of division because there's a risk people are ghettoized. But I do sometimes feel that what we're seeing is something that we're almost jealous of, which is immigrant communities still stick together.

32:00Tim Montgomerie: Yes.

32:01Camilla Tominey: In a way that I fear a lot of poorer white people don't do. And I'm not denying that, goodness me, there is a sectarian tension and a problem. I'm not going to deny that. I mean, one thing I remain very uncomfortable about seeing is the niqab when I go around. And I think there's a conversation about that, for instance, that we desperately need to have in this country. Are Muslim women as liberated and as equal as we expect people to be? But I cannot fault Asian communities for the fact that they function as a community.

32:30Tim Montgomerie: And also there's high visibility at the moment because it's Ramadan and many people are going to mosques for prayers and obviously fasting through the day. And probably having a sense of community precisely because of all that, which is very visible. and there's a visibility to people just in neighbourhoods because a lot of Muslim people would be running retailers or they'd be running taxi firms and they'd just be out and about more.

32:52Camilla Tominey: Yes.

32:53Tim Montgomerie: I do think it is interesting, this whole campaigning in Urdu.

32:56Camilla Tominey: Yes. It's not just the language. No. I just want to say right here, because the video, if people should watch the video, the issue is not just the language. It's actually that it shows images of Labour politicians with Israelis and crucially with the Prime Minister of India, Modi.

33:14Tim Montgomerie: Yeah, he's just landed with Netanyahu.

33:16Camilla Tominey: So that really is the sectarian appeal.

33:17Tim Montgomerie: My objection to it is to be so divisive with the Greens and this suggestion that if you're a Zionist, you are ergo a racist is so deeply offensive. It's the support of some people who are only asking for a one-state solution, i.e. Israel, to be wiped off the map. There is tension. There are very serious and substantiated accusations of anti-Semitism to those involved in the Green movement. And it's the dishonesty, as you pointed out earlier, this is meant to be a movement motivated by wanting to improve the environment that has now turned into something very different. And I think it is deeply dishonest to be talking more about Gaza than Gorton in a by-election of a town in Greater Manchester in the UK.

34:07Camilla Tominey: A couple of people said to me they were supporters of Jeremy Corbyn. These are green activists.

34:12Tim Montgomerie: Yeah.

34:12Camilla Tominey: They hate Keir Starmer. They feel they've lost the Labour Party and they are looking for a socialist alternative. And the Gaza issue is part of that. I did notice a number of shops with Jewish names like Cohen's Chemist or there was like a Levy's supermarket. I suspect there is actually an older Jewish population.

34:30Tim Montgomerie: Well, Manchester's home to the second biggest Jewish population outside London.

34:33Camilla Tominey: And I think there's a bit of that in Gorton, but it's like, why do you talk to these people? Why do you target them? And why do you use these images and this language?

34:42Tim Montgomerie: And then you accuse reform of division when you are the ones who are capitalising upon those differences between the communities.

34:50Camilla Tominey: That's what gets me.

34:51Tim Montgomerie: It's the grotesque hypocrisy of the situation. We're for these people because we believe in equality, but we're not for these people. OK, you don't believe in equality. You don't believe in fairness.

35:00Camilla Tominey: And therefore, I come back to why not run on that genuine material problem, that economic problem that the area has, which is things like high rents.

35:09Tim Montgomerie: Because they're trying to weaponise a certain caucus of voters. Right. It's totally cynical.

35:14Camilla Tominey: Well, it's schizophrenic as well, because the candidate said in her little speech, we are not a poor country. We're a rich country. Look at the centre of Manchester. You have high rises, great glass high rises being raised. whereas I'm talking to voters here who cannot meet the rent and who are paying sky-high rents to live in places with rising damp. I agree with that. I wanted to start singing the Internationale when I heard that. Run on class.

35:39Tim Montgomerie: Yes.

35:40Camilla Tominey: Don't run on community division. No, that's right. And I'm afraid that's what the Greens have chosen to do.

35:46Tim Montgomerie: Also, by the way, it also highlights the division in this country now is not so much north and south but city versus town.

35:54Camilla Tominey: Very much so, yes.

35:54Tim Montgomerie: It's a city versus seaside town and as much as it's a city versus towns like Gorton and Denton. Very quickly before we finish, Tim, let's just have a look at the polling and how close it is. You've mentioned Keir Starmer going up there. Is that because they thought they might actually win it? Opinium today puts the Greens in the lead on 30 % with Labour and reform very close behind on 28%. Basically, that is mirrored with other pollsters across the whole scene. So, in other words, this is too close to call. we must stress that you and I will be doing a Gorton and Denton by-election special on Friday.

36:29Camilla Tominey: And we're hoping to have the result by the morning and all of these polls are within the margin and that is probably the big reason why Bolanski didn't want to speak to us. He was too busy pushing leaflets through doors.

36:40Tim Montgomerie: Indeed. The other thing we need to do is a little shout out. We're doing our Q &A series where you and I are lined up to answer our audience's question. If you want to ask a question on Friday in reaction to the result in that by-election do get in touch. It's thedailytea at telegraph.co.uk or you can contact us via our socials X Instagram and TikTok. We'll be back tomorrow 5pm.

37:23you