Lindsey Thompson: I'm an Epping "pink lady" - we're ordinary people, not far-right thugs

0:02The Telegraph.

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0:47Camilla: People Power has closed the hotel in Epping, the bell that was housing migrants, where parents were protesting outside. But what happens next and where will the asylum seekers be sent to? We speak to one of the pink ladies of Epping, Lindsay Thompson, who tells us, no, she's not a far-right thug, she's just a concerned mum. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominey.

1:21Camilla, for once a court is right and for once has taken the side of small-c conservatives. Epping the centre of all this, the scene of protests against an asylum hotel, the Bell Hotel. The High Court has issued a temporary injunction to say that they must cease housing migrants at that hotel on this extraordinary legal point that it's in breach of planning laws because the hotel was not designed to take asylum seekers. I just find it so extraordinary. You've got this big, what we'd call populist right-wing issue. and it's a court which has taken the people's side and it's on this really narrow specific point that the hotel was not designed for that purpose.

2:04Camilla: Exactly. It's kind of like getting Al Capone on false accounting. Yes. But, I mean, the good people of Epping are... I keep on calling them the good people of Epping. I've got to stop there. But the people of Epping are going to be delighted. The protests there have been led by a group called the Pink Ladies and we're going to speak to one later, Lindsay Thompson, who basically came at this as a concerned mum and then of course there's been a huge amount of dialogue about whether the people who are objecting to what are, it's basically an all-male hotel or it was an all-male hotel, so illegal immigrants coming across the channel, being housed there, no consultation with the local people.

2:40Camilla: There is an ongoing legal case involving one of the migrants, an Ethiopian alleged to have sexually assaulted a teenage girl from the area, which of course is going to inflame tensions, let's be honest. Then we had Antifa left-wing protesters sort of shipped into the area, clashing with the protesters who were saying that they didn't want the migrants to be housed there. Police accused of two-tier policing because they accompanied the Antifa protesters to the protest and were accused of inflaming tensions. And then there's a political dimension as ever, isn't there, Tim? What I find fascinating is the centre of this is the question of women's safety.

3:19Camilla: Yes. And it's an issue which keeps coming up in politics, it feels to me, as if there are many women who, whatever the issue might be, feel as though their security is being forgotten. And that was the debate at the heart of this, was this town suddenly has a large number of strange men hanging around with nothing to do, who people alleged were being unfriendly towards young girls. And this has therefore become this huge political issue because it just feels like everything is right about the question. I mean, it's hard not to sympathize with those protesters. And all the parties are attempting to talk tough on asylum.

3:55So this is their chance to prove it by taking their side. The council is a conservative council, Epping. We should note that the Hotel for Migrants was actually established under the conservatives. But Robert Jenrick in 2024 then closed the hotel down. Labour is elected and then reopens the hotel. Why? Because of the surge of migrants across the channel. Remember, smash the gangs. Smash the gangs. Smash the gangs. First it was stop the boats and now it's smash the gangs. But the hotel is open because of the failure to smash the gangs. So the government is irritated. It says because of this injunction, we now can't perform our statutory duty to house these people.

4:38And it also means that their human rights to housing are going to be undermined. And we're going to have to find somewhere else for them to live. We can come back to that because that's a very important point. What happens next? The Conservatives are trying to capitalise in it because it's a Conservative council and this is just right up Jenrick and Kemi's street. But then you also have reform. Yes. And one just feels with all immigration issues that however the government or the official opposition plays it, it's always reform that wins in the end. And Nigel Farage has written for us today in a very happy article saying, this is a great victory for the parents and concerned residents of Epping.

5:14let it also be an inspiration to the rest of Britain, calling for similar protests around Britain. I mean, that does raise the question, what is it he's asking for here? Is he suggesting we all don pink T-shirts and go and hang around outside hotels?

5:28Camilla: Well, if peaceful, I mean, but it will embolden protesters in other areas. We hear that Broxbourne, which isn't too far from Epping in Hertfordshire, is considering mounting its own legal challenge against a migrant hotel there. I mean, it's undoubtedly a victory for people power. There is a tug of war going on between Farage and indeed Jenrick trying to claim credit for this. Reform is being much more personal than its attacks on Jenrick at the moment. Well, that's because they see Jenrick as a threat. They think he's going to take over from Kemi and the next election will be between Farage and Jenrick.

5:59Camilla: And Jenrick's whole shtick when he ran as leader, do you remember, he needs to have the appearance of David Cameron but the policies of Nigel Farage. so he is a kind of poor man's farage at the moment because he knows he can't get re-elected in Newark unless he is on the right of right despite having been a Romeno and apparently once cried about the Rwanda scheme but anyway but Rob is on the right side in this and has tweeted his congratulations saying change the laws, get third country deals deport everyone who comes here illegally end this right, which does beg the question why on earth didn't this happen when he was immigration minister or indeed under 14 years of the Tories And one should add, I mean, one should feel some sympathy for asylum seekers who find themselves parked in hotels for long periods of time.

6:46There may be a proportion of them who are criminal or faking it could well be true. There will also be some asylum seekers, of course, who genuinely have a claim to asylum, which has not been properly processed yet. And those people get the stick, get stick because of this. And the hotels are only filling up because of the failure to stop the illegal routes. That's the problem. It all comes back to state failure. We're essentially discussing here a symptom of the failure on asylum. We're not discussing the root cause, which is the inability to stop illegal migration to the country. Exactly.

7:18Camilla: And actually, it's got a lot worse since Labour took power, despite all of the Prime Minister and indeed Home Secretary Yvette Cooper's protestations. We had that record 50 ,000 mark being passed at the weekend. So 50 ,000 illegal immigrants have crossed the channel since Labour was elected. That's a record high. The gangs aren't being smashed. We're paying millions to the French who appear to be doing nothing. And we've got the likes of Jenrick and indeed Shadow Home Secretary Chris Philp going across the channel and being either threatened with machetes by smuggling gang members or indeed being told or laughed at by the French police when reporting the fact that loads of people are lining up to take a dinghy across the channel and arrive in Dover.

7:59Camilla: So all of that. Some number of unanswered questions, though, Tim. because, and this is a very good point that's been raised by our regular listener and indeed correspondent Graham Pack, who asks the following questions, and I think we need to table these with the person, the reporter down in the news desk that's working on this today. As the court has ruled that the hotel is to be vacated, will the government still be on the hook financially for the rent signed under this long-term agreement? Because obviously the government via the Home Office will do deals with the hotel to house migrants there, and presumably they do sign contracts for, what, 12 months, 24 months, whatever.

8:34Camilla: It's a good question. Second of all, is there a break clause in the agreement that stops the payment of the rent should an event like this occur? If there is a break clause, then is there a financial penalty the government has to pay, such as three or six months rent? Mr Pack makes a good point because what's now going to happen is the government probably still needs to honour this contract and then pay for more accommodation for migrants to be housed elsewhere. Which could be in the private rental market. And the point that gets missed as well is the other reason why Epping residents don't quite like this is because they lose a hotel.

9:07Camilla: You know, somebody wants to host a wedding. Where's everyone going to stay? Oh, come and stay at the Bell. Oh, no, sorry, you can't. It's been closed down to my prison. Londoners don't understand this point. No, they don't. In most provincial towns like my one, there is one major hotel. And if it's taken up by asylum seekers, then it kind of, there is no local hotel. There is nowhere to stay. There is nowhere to hold events like that, etc. You're quite right. Right. And Londoners who are surrounded by premier inns, they don't realise how lucky they are. They don't get it at all. And also some of these hotels have got a history and been longstanding institutions and they fall into a degree of disrepair.

9:41Camilla: We have one near my dad in St. Albans, which used to be like the place where people would, you know, go for a relatively unreasonably priced meal or an afternoon tea. And now it's just full of migrants and frankly is an eyesore. Well, shall we speak to somebody who has been at the coalface of this? Lindsay Thompson is one of the pink lady protesters that we discussed earlier, and she joins us next.

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10:57Camilla: Joining us now is Lindsay Thompson, a local mum from Epping. And Lindsay, you got involved with this, really, with your maternal hat on. I know a lot of labels have been thrown at the people protesting, you're far right, you're Tommy Robinson supporters, you're this, you're that. But you came at this very much as a mum. How did you get involved? I think I unconsciously became involved when, as a mum, I receive you know we get lots of letters from the senior school my daughter goes to the local school there which is closest to the hotel um we'd already seen strange men appearing in our town which sounds a bit of an odd thing to say but in a very small town you kind of go to the local high street you go to your local coffee shop and you go morning hello they go how's your mum and dad It's like that sort of town.

11:51So you kind of go, oh, strange men. So then my thoughts went to what you're doing here? Who are you? We had we have rumblings because nothing was very open, transparent about who was coming. And our hotel had only men. That's what we heard. Only men, about 100 men. So then there was an unease as a parent. And then we got a letter from the school saying, please be vigilant. ask your children to be vigilant especially the girls when they're coming home from school as they are being approached by men in in the high street because the school is close to the high street um so that was that was a bit as a parent you're like what what what do you mean they're being approached and i've had a conversation with my 17 year old and said you know are you being approached by men are you seeing anything and she was like well only the men that sit in the alleyway I said what men the men that just sit and watch us go to school and come home from school they only watch us uh I've not had one talk to me so that was that what on earth that there's no part of me that thinks that's okay that someone's hobby is sitting and watching children coming home from school and going to school so I became a little bit somewhat subconsciously involved I then experienced something in the high street where I just I watched a man fill his trolley in Marks and Spencer's full of stuff and then just walk out and not go through the self-service till.

13:19So I sort of said, oh, what's that? And they went, oh, no, we don't do anything. We just, you know,

13:25Camilla: we just let go. There is currently a case ongoing, the proceedings are active in a case against a migrant with the migrant accused of sexually assaulting a local teenage girl. So we just need to be careful with that from a legal perspective, Lindsay, and kind of avoid direct conversation about that. But you've painted a picture here of the fabric of Epping society having changed because of the arrival of a load of single men from overseas. I think the reality is for a large city I think that could be assimilated and maybe not be as noticeable but Epping is a tiny little town we only really come together for the carol service on the green once a year that's kind of it but we do have quite a community on social media I would say it's a bit like being in hot fuzz that we all get messages saying oh there's boys doing wheelies down the high street you know who are those parents it's a bit like that there's kids drinking on the cricket pitch it's that sort of community so we kind of got a firm eye on our our teenagers and what's going on so suddenly you see grown men sitting drinking on the cricket pitch that we don't know you're like who are you so this combined with the fears from school my daughter talking about it I heard there was a rumbling of some something on social media around let's let's go and protest at the bell the bill and I think the challenge for me was when the rumblings came it's a far-right fascist movement it's a far-right it's far-right thuggery you know I think that made us parents go no no no no it's not we're not we're not far-right thugs we're just normal mums and dads and my dad's 82 and he comes with us.

15:02It's just normal people feeling really scared because we don't know who they are. We don't know. They might be lovely, but the fact that we don't know, you've put them right in our town next to our school, next to the tennis club. So the girls get jumped off in their tennis skirts and then you've got men. I watch them. Men come out of the forest opposite. That used to be our jogging spot across Bell Common. They just sit, drink, watch, come out of the dark bushes. And people say that they're dogs. They don't go out on their own anymore. They certainly can't go for a jog anymore. That's things we've taken for granted.

15:46I think we're not asking for our children to be safe coming home from a nightclub at 12 o 'clock at night. We're asking them to be safe coming home from school. Lindsay, can you tell us a bit more about the kind of people who took part in the protests, when you joined them, were there obvious far-right people there? Or were they really a tiny number? What was the crowd like? Yeah, it was an interesting... We are not protesters, so this festival. So when we got there, it was this really strange... We go, hello, hello, how are you? We go, fine. What are we doing? We go, we don't really know. We didn't have any signs, we didn't have any music, any chants.

16:23we're like oh just don't feel safe isn't it we don't know what to do so I think first of all we were a bit useless at what we were doing and then what I noticed was there was some I would just call silly teenage boys they're like you know 16 15 coming on with their face masks and you know one of them when the first time the police came they wanted to wear a plastic bottle at the police and I went oh go away don't be silly they're like yeah sorry and it was that sorry mum it was that sort of behavior it was silliness but what really ignited the violence i think was the we were we were outside the bell saying protect our kids protect our kids right that's basically what we were saying in front of the bell and then the police marched the counter protest i don't know if you call it a counter protest i don't know the left-wing activists from the from the station to the bell, which is not, you know, it's not close by.

17:21It's about a quarter of an hour walk uphill. It's a bit of a trek. They were marching, chanting. They were masked. They were solid. You know, they were good, like, hedge men coming towards us. And when that happens, this side, our parents launch form. And when you're saying protect our kids, I won't tell you what they were saying back to our faces about our kids because I couldn't repeat it. You are going to get trouble. And that's when things really got ignited.

17:55Camilla: Sorry, Lindsay, I do want to know what they were saying about your kids. F your kids. Yeah. Holding a gun like that. Well, you've discovered that the kind of people who attend a lot of civil protests are really uncivil and are very horrible. And they are professional protesters very often, those people. I said, you can't come. My daughter said, I want to come. You can't come to these protests because I was really fearful. So I said, this is not our fight. Our fight is the bell. Mums and kids come back to the bell. So I kind of pulled people back to the bell. I said, this is where our fight is.

18:34And we stayed there. So we had none of it. And then what was, again, because we're a small town, when the police said they did not escort them from the station, luckily the local beauty salon around the corner, who we all know really well, recorded them being escorted up. So that then got into the social media world. So then the police went, all right, we did escort them, but they were right to another protest, as in you are. And I just, I could only liken it to, I can only liken it to bringing Millwall supporters to a West Ham barbecue. Yes. That's literally, we were like, oh my God, I've never experienced this in my life.

19:18You know, it was just, I've been to QPR a couple of times and that was a bit scary. But this was nothing compared to that. But it felt, as a parent, it felt for Epping that there was a mainstream narrative they'd like to come out, which was, this is far right thuggery. And look at the violence that erupted as a result from equal left and right. I think I was on a social media post. I think GB News once saying, we don't want far right. We don't want far left. We just want this hotel shut down so we feel safe. But I think what happened then was this really interesting thing. That's where the whole pink thing came from, because we felt as though we need to show the world that we're just parents and grandparents.

20:02So that's when we started to wear pink T-shirt. It's stressful because I only have one pink T-shirt. I like to keep washing it and wearing it. So that's why we started to wear pink. So when things were put on social media and there was more and more social media kind of, you know, noticing, really. because there's more people there videoing, that then we could show that we were just ordinary people that don't feel safe living with men that we don't know where they're from and who they are.

20:29Camilla: I mean, the good people of Epping now must feel delighted that this hotel's been closed and that this High Court challenge has been won. But what next? You know, I think one of the things that people say to us is, well, where do you think they should go? I got to go, that's not Epping's problem. That's the government's issue to sort out. My fear is that they'll be popped up into HMOs around the corner and they'll just turn up somewhere else where we don't know where they are. But I think also regardless of that now, I think what we've seen is a tide, like a tide that's turned. My son's 28 and he sent me a message last night.

21:11He lives in Hertfordshire. He's getting married next year. And he said to your mum, he went, I'd really thought that society was broken. I thought democracy was finished. And I feel like you've made a difference. But it's been, of course, it's been done through the courts. So it is. OK, Epping is democratically elected. But in this instance, the High Court, which normally we think is the source of all our woes, actually was on your side? It was interesting because when I watched the transcript, I didn't think we'd made a very great case for it, to be honest, when I read it through. I didn't think there was much evidence from the school.

21:52I thought it could have been much more punchy in the evidence they put forward for closing it down. I do think there was some background. So just by complete coincidence, I'd applied for an extension years ago on our house because we had another child. and that hotel was applying for planning permission to become a care home and it got turned down. They said, no, it needs to stay as a hotel in Epping. So I think there was some precedent perhaps in Epping that a hotel needed to stay, a hotel.

22:25Camilla: I mean, Lindsay, you're getting quite emotional there when you just referred to your son contacting you because you are this unexpected sort of rebel, really, with a cause and, as you say, with your fellow pink ladies and let's call them pink parents because I know there have been dads and your own father's been there, etc. I mean, has this changed your attitude towards sort of democracy? Who are the people of Epping blaming for this? Clearly there's antagonism towards the police for a perception that they inflamed the situation by allowing in, you know, hard left and Antifa protesters. Then is there a degree of kind of ire against the Labour government, the previous Tory government, the local council?

23:09I don't think the local council did back us. Kemi Badenock came to Epping last week and I managed to be in the meeting with her. And my view is she gave them a good firm talking to her and said, are you doing enough? I don't think they were actually... I think the protesters, we weren't going away. and I think that was one of the challenges. I think we started to vent our frustration. I think we weren't being heard. We tried democracy. We tried closing it down through our council. That hadn't worked. And as a local person, when you've lost your democratic process, what do you do? There isn't anything left to protest but to get us out on a Sunday night when we've got work tomorrow and got to sort the school uniforms out and stuff.

24:05We're not easy people to get protests. We also have a very, I think, playing on our genuine fears of being called racist or being anti-immigration. You know, that's quite a big fear to get over. Now, I said to my other half, you know, I'm going to go to a protest. Oh, be careful, darling. You know, you run a business. Do you really want to be? And it's like, what's the most important thing in the world? It's the safety of our families. there's nothing that's a bigger priority than that and if I get called names you know I brought up my children to say if people call you names it does don't let it touch you people say I hate your pink hair and you know you haven't got pink hair it doesn't hurt does it so when someone looks at me in the eye and call me a right-wing fascist or a right-wing Nazi as I was called by the left wing I go, well, I'm not.

24:56So crack on. But that's bullying. And I think I think we feel as parents, certainly the ones that I've been speaking to, we feel like we've been bullied into this situation. And the only way we can get ourselves out of it is to raise our voices up and join up. So, you know, speaking to the parents in Chesham, we now speak to the parents that are local to us and ones in Norwich. And then I think Epping has shown that we can do it peacefully and we can create the true narrative that ordinary people don't want this. We don't feel safe and that our safety must be a priority for the government and not the safety and looking after people we know nothing about.

25:40Did you or the protesters have any interaction with those people? Did the asylum seekers speak to you or did you speak to them no they do they generally get escorted into town now um they get they get escorted into town by police now you don't really see another night we went down there because there was another arrest uh for an alleged sexual attack in the hotel on a mail this time on a person in the hotel so we went there tuesday night to see what was happening this is the tuesday before last and it was just getting dark it's just getting dark and there was probably about 10 of us outside just having a chat and then as it got dark there was seven men just coming out of the bushes out of the forest with their bags of beer with bags of booze whatever it is and you my heart says i want to say to them where have you been all day what have you been doing because they have nothing to do well they're not allowed to work the government doesn't allow them to work we should point that out because they're not permitted to do anything yeah absolutely i think the truth is if these are women and children in there i think probably the community and everything what we're knowing what we're like with the local church we'd be going what do you need what's the kids need what's the toys you need it must be awful to come from a war-torn place as a woman with children must be horrific you know i think the gen the genuine concern is they're just hanging around all day in our town which i think you know the reality is bet them find out who we've got.

27:11There may be great people, maybe wonderful people that are arriving that we know nothing about, that have got an incredible story to tell. And let us have those people in our community tell those stories, join and bring all the lovely skills that you have with you. The fact is, we don't know who they are.

27:28Camilla: Lindsay, you've mentioned Kemi Badenock there, the Conservative Party leader. Has this pushed people into the arms of Nigel Farage? Is there now a kind of reform revolution going on in Epping?

27:41i'm so i'm not political at all i don't have any political thoughts in my head what i would say is there's quite a lot of reform people there but they are also parents as well so are they there for reform or are they there for parents i say probably both i think there's an element that people are just you know we had our local elections taken away from us we were one of the people that were allowed to vote. I think that did a huge amount of harm.

28:08Camilla: Interesting. And I think we've always had a probably conservative stronghold in effing, I would think for many years. I think there's an element that people are just think the conservatives didn't do anything about it and said great stuff and did nothing. Labour's done worse and let more people in, having been voted on saying they were going to break the gangs. So I think people are looking for an option perhaps yeah but you probably need to ask people that are more politically active than me i'm just like yeah my what i've been doing while i'm on holiday before the court case yesterday was trying to set up protect our doorstep which is um patrolling parents in alleyways and pathways for children going to school i'm much more feet on the ground how do we look after our people than than the big picture fabulous lindsey thompson thank you very very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea.

29:01Camilla: Thank you for having me. A pleasure.

29:08Camilla: Doesn't Lindsay just exemplify the absolute mischaracterisation That's just what I was thinking of any ordinary member of the public expressing any concern at all about anything remotely controversial. So the Lindsays of this world who say, I'm not sure it's a good idea to let a load of unvetted young men into a hotel who have entered the country illegally that is right next to a school full of teenage girls in the same way that the Lindsays of this world also say things like I'm not sure I want my young daughter to be put on puberty blockers and be told that men can be women and women can be men because it doesn't make any biological sense to me.

29:56She represents the epitome of the silent majority of this country tearing its hair out as decisions are made that they appear to have no control over whatsoever. And it isn't obvious how they're supposed to articulate those fears through ordinary politics. I think it was a really interesting detail that the elections in her area had been cancelled.

30:19Camilla: Yeah. Remind me why that happened again. I think it was because of devolution plans and the whole local government in certain areas was being changed. And you'd then have to hold elections in some areas that wouldn't be the same areas the next time around. But the point is the good people of Epping didn't get to exercise a vote. Precisely. So if it isn't obvious which party to go for, although I'm surprised she wasn't more pro-reform, then what else are you going to do? And what you do is a group of you turn up and hang around the hotel and hold up signs and gather attention. And then the Rolling Stone gathers the moss of madness, which is either, as she described it, young right wing thugs turning up and throwing bottles at police vans.

31:01Or, I mean, let's be honest, far more organized people than that have tried to jump on this bandwagon, too. But that then attracts a counter protest of people who, if you actually meet them, are just as frightening. as the far right.

31:16Camilla: Yes. Balaclavid Antifa thugs masquerading as progressives. I don't want to besmirch any individual, of course, but when they're interviewed by the cameras, they come across as hippies, just very well-intentioned liberals. You don't realise how much more intimidating they are when they're actually at the protests. So as I say, something snowballs from this is just us don't know how to make our opinion feel so we'll turn up and protest into something that's got national attention, TV cameras and extremists on both sides hijacking it. It won't surprise you to learn, Tim, that a number of Telegraph readers are behind the Pink Ladies and those protesting in Epping.

31:57Camilla: Telegraph reader Sylvia Langen. Well done to the Pink Ladies. I hope this becomes a normal British response until the government takes notice and listens to the British public. They are so dumb, it could take a long time though. Another Telegraph reader, Terry McCann, says the peaceful protests of the Pink Ladies have made an example of the pro-Palestine mob. May their lesson be learnt that you can get a lot more done by being civilised. And this sounds a message of hope. Olivia Wilde says the fight back has really begun. The patriots waving our national flags together with the peaceful protests and the Pink Ladies.

32:30Camilla: Maybe this country does have a future. My only word of warning, and we discussed it before, is where do the asylum seekers go next? And it was mentioned in the interview that if they now turn up in private accommodation in Epping, then not only are they still in Epping, but now they're potentially taking homes and houses away from the local people of Epping. Yes. In which case, I don't see that as much of an improvement. And also, Lindsay mentioned there Chessent, which is nearby. And I know people who have been very concerned about the migrant hotel there. There have already been protests there.

33:04Camilla: There was a suggestion this morning bubbling up that some of the migrants might be moved to Chessent. And then somebody saying if that happens, it will, quotes, all kick off. And this has been a victory both for the law and peaceful protest that we certainly don't want descending into rioting, which is something that has kind of like it's been a dark shadow across the whole of the summer. Because of our memories of last year, we don't want this to kick off into violence again. Crowbarring dark clouds over horizons into the final section of this podcast. how much time do you think you spend discussing the weather?

33:42I think it's probably 60 % of my conversation.

33:46Camilla: Yes, that's 70 % of our conversation. I don't think I've ever discussed the weather with you, actually. It's impossible to tell the weather in the Telegraph building. People have to understand that. There are no windows. I only ask that because there are reports out today that apparently research by the Met Office has revealed that the average Brit spends... How many? Hang on. I'm going to ask you to guess. out of a year how many hours do you think we spend talking about the weather i have no idea tell me 56.6 hours that seems like too little to me that's like basically just over two days more than two days discussing whether it's going to be rainy or sunny i don't think that's enough i so my theory is one it's about us in the past being an agrarian country i think our obsession with the weather comes from some dim memory of when we were all yeoman and it would affect the crops.

34:37Camilla: Fair enough. I think the other reason is because the English don't like talking to each other. And it's much easier that, you know, other countries like Americans would say, how are you? And the other person would give an answer. Yes. Whereas here it's always, how are you? I'm fine. I want to move the conversation on. I think whether chat is a kind of prophylactic in English social situation. Yes, it's a lubricant. Yes, it's a way of not having to discuss things that actually matter. So someone turns up to the party and they're missing a leg. They've clearly been through the wars. What do you talk about?

35:06You don't ask, what's wrong with your leg? You say, what do you think about the weather? Oh, it's miserable, isn't it?

35:11Camilla: And everyone can have an uncontroversial opinion about it. Well, we shall be back tomorrow at 5pm where the weather in Victoria is forecast to be sunny, 20 degrees. And we won't know because we sit inside this giant steel box. We're in a giant steel spaceship of a newsroom. Back tomorrow. Thank you.

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