Makerfield: Reform and Restore at war as polls show Right is split

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30and we put them right in front of you. Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast. Acast.com slash advertise.

1:05This is unfeasibly small, isn't it? Yes, given that the car's very big, but the boot is really small. The boot's tiny. Tim, we're in the back of a Wenger bus in Wigan. We've just stayed at the local Premier Inn. Was Lenny Henry in your bed? He wasn't, and may I just say that calling it Premier Inn is the funniest thing Lenny Henry has ever said. Yes, indeed. It may be a brief... It's all right. It's what I think hotels would be like under communism. We're obviously here to cover the Makerfield by-election. We're on the road. We are out there with the punters. We do get out of the Westminster bubble, ladies and gentlemen.

1:39We're going to do that today. Although amusingly we are sitting in a bubble right now. We are. We will get out the car, don't worry. We won't just wind down a window and shout at people. But we are going to a place called Goose Green and we want to go to Goose Green because it's known as Reform Country and we're going to go in search of Robert Kenyon, the reform candidate, Also a plumber. So if you've got a leaky tap, he could come in handy. And it's interesting, isn't it? That's so patronising. I know it is. Well, to be fair, plumbers are very useful people. They are. And Kenyon is emblematic, isn't he, of Reform's decision to not go with career politicians, to go with ordinary members of the public who are so distressed at the state of the country that they want to try and make a difference.

2:22Alternative take, they just ran with the candidate that ran last time. True. In Makerfield. And didn't do badly. came Labour's majority is just shy of 6 ,000. Yes, so he did very well. He did very well and it made sense to just go with a local candidate, particularly in an election which is all about localism because Andy Burnham is running as our Andy of Manchester. Yes. But of course, local candidates aren't as well vetted or tested as celebrity national candidates. And he's made a few sexist remarks in the past. He had an interesting performance on Question Time. Some people said he wasn't well enough prepped, but then we have heard anecdotally through our comments section at the bottom of Telegraph stories that quite a few locals say it doesn't matter what he says or what his past is, he's a real person, he understands the issues locally.

3:08So this big battle between red and turquoise is obviously going to play out on June the 18th and we're here really to find out what the punters think. It's all very well looking at the polls but what do the punters think in the different areas? Do they think that Burnham is the next messiah or actually most closely associated with the city of Manchester and not the suburbs? And equally, can Kenyon cut through, regardless of what he may have said on X and other social media platforms in the past? We're off to our first stop at Goose Green, and after that, we'll try and hunt down Andy Burnham. Tim,

3:51there it is. Reform HQ. In a business park in Makerfield. Sometimes politics isn't that glamorous. No, we're going to try and get in and speak to someone. We did tell them they're coming, but my experience of by-elections is very often you shop and they act as though there isn't a by-election on. Yeah, they don't want to speak to us. We didn't expect you. Nothing's happening today. There's an election here. I know, there's shades of you chasing Zach Polanski around Gorton and Denton. We'll see if anyone will actually speak to us. This is more glamorous, actually. We're from the Telegraph. We've kind of flagged that we were coming.

4:22we just wondered if we might be able to go and speak to the people inside the HQ not unless you've got a pre-booked appointment I'm afraid Jess we wanted to speak to somebody here just because we're trying to get all the candidates today for a special on Friday for the podcast is that alright, thank you chat we just want to find some reform friendly people we don't take media on the doors with us no but I mean if you find some you're more than welcome to but yeah I don't know where they'd be we'll have 60 or 70 people out on doors so there'll be quite a few groups out so I don't know where exactly they're going to be.

4:53And what's the deal with the candidate himself? You just don't want to do too much press with him? No, well, he's done loads of press, but we're mainly focusing on local media. That's the priority. Local media and getting him on doors. OK. I get, you know, the selection is very much. Making Andy Byrne a prime minister, so he's trying to speak to a national audience, but, I mean, the priority is to speak to people and make it for the best people we've got. And is he doing any local media today that we can pick up on? No, he will be doing some tomorrow, I think. Ah, OK. All right, understood. We'll go and try and find some of your turquoise crew out and about.

5:24No worries. Yeah, I'm sure there'll be people out. Yeah, sure. All right, thank you very much. Cheers. Bye. That was a hard no, but I think I saw Rob Kenyon waving from an upstairs window. Well, they're saying that he's only focusing on local media, whereas Burnham, in his assault on the premiership, is focusing on national media. We just want them both to focus on our media. Also, no one focuses on local media because there is no local media. It died about 20 years ago. I mean, the BBC have denigrated local radio, but there are local papers up here, and we just need to find the turquoise crew.

5:56We need to find people with rosettes out on the doorsteps. It's OK. We needed Bertie here. Yeah. We needed a sniffer dog. Yeah, exactly. We needed a reformed sniffer dog. Yeah, we needed to give him a pack of Benson and Hedges cigarettes. That's right, maybe a bottle of Croix Vazier. And then send him off. Yeah. Well, I'm sure on our travels as well, Tim, we'll be catching up with Eyelash McGraw, as I'm now nicknaming Andy Burnham. Somebody who's friends with him gave me that nickname, and I think it's a good one. And we'll be looking to see how he flutters his mince pies at his adoring audience.

6:27We've just walked two minutes around the corner from Reform HQ and we're now in Goose Green, which is a suburb full of lots of little bungalows. It's a massive boat on a driveway here and that was definitely one on bullseye and it has never seen the water. There's a house around the corner which is draped in a union flag. The kind of flag actually that would make Emily Thornberry bring up some sick in her own mouth. And it's also got a restore poster. Oh, look at this. Andy Burnham. That's a goat for us. You'll notice that he's a cartoon. And there's a slightly sinister air to it. He looks like a member of the Kim Jong-un family.

7:07Yes, he does. He's been emojified. Yeah, but he's not smiling. He looks like Big Brother. Also, can I say something else a little bit ominous? A couple of doors down. Whee! Yes! A couple of doors down. That roof has been... It's Burnham and burned down. That roof, can you see that, Will? Panning. Somebody's house has burned down there. The only three candidates that matter. They'll think we're with Restore. I've just realised, while we've been walking around sitting here, people have been beeping their horns at us. And to my horror, I realised, no, it's because we're sitting next to the Restore.

7:44I thought they were beeping me I thought I was famous in Makerfield Are you big in Wigan? But they think I'm with Rupert Lowe I'm going to appear on the MI5 watch list I think they're beeping us because they're Daily Tea fans Thank you very much But the whole thing with Lowe I mean we had this discussion with Chris Philp earlier in the week and we're going to ask the Conservative candidate the same question Should Restore or the Tories even be at the races because for the right to win this seat they've got to unite Obviously they're not, they're tearing each other apart, they're cannibalising each other in the terms of votes.

8:19And actually the split on the right could see Andy Burnham crowned the King of Makerfield and the King of the country eventually. But don't you think the Tories have almost unofficially pulled out? Yes. Chris Philp was not really making a case for his candidate. No one's really taking it seriously. They've got to run someone because they are a major national party. Yes. Whereas Restore are taking it very seriously, not to win it, but because they want to make the point that until reform signs up to the policies or, if you like, the style of politics that they endorse, it's not going to have their support and so it cannot win.

8:55Also, they want to make a mockery of Nigel Farage turning around at the beginning of Restore's ascendancy after he had that row with Rupert Lowe. And we can have a separate conversation about the bad man management of reform and Farage not keeping low inside the tent, no matter, he's outside the tent now. But he said to us, Nigel Farage, forget Restore. He was very dismissive. They're only on 1%. They're a protest vote and all the rest of it. But we know that internally the Reform Party is very worried about Restore being on as little as 3%, that that could affect their chances of having a majority at the next general election.

9:32If they're polling above 3 % here, then it's going to affect their chances of winning this actual seat. And people are increasingly going to ask, well, what's the point of Nigel Farrow? If you can't win a 65 % vote leave seat with a 97 % white population, we're in reform country right now, if you can't win here, where can you win? Right, shall we go try and find the Rupert Lofan in this house? OK, let's see if they're at home.

10:03Chris, thank you for answering the door. we noticed your big Restore Britain flag, which is interesting because we are around the corner from Reform HQ. We're meant to be in Reform country here in Goose Green, but you're actually a Rupert Lowe fan. I am, yes. I did follow Reform for a little while. I was a Labour supporter a long time ago, but things seem to have shifted. They don't seem, personally the Labour side of things don't seem to be following sort of the sort of working class routes that they sort of started off on. I did start to go to Reform and follow a lot of their things. I do work security at an airport so I see a lot of the border issues and things like that.

10:47I actually started following Rupert Lowe when he was still in Reform and then sort of saw what happened and got a bit disenfranchised really with Farage. I don't really trust the guy. what a lot of things he said he always seems to follow the popular tack and suddenly he'll jump onto things and say oh yeah this is the latest and greatest but looking at things recently with his sort of voting and the thing how much time he's actually spent in parliament rather than smoothing with his pals and going off and going on holidays and doing all sorts of things I started forward to Rupert Lowe I think as well with the local candidates Rebecca for Restore seems a bit more genuine I know Reform have sort of taken the mickey from her saying she's not as media savvy and she's not obviously got the training behind her but I think that's sort of shown a genuine side to what she's doing, she's a very local person I quite liked Josh Simmons, not so much the Labour Party side but he was quite a popular MP for the area he was really into his local stuff, he was doing really well and then he's also just sort of had to stand aside because Burnham just wants the ticket to go and be PM so I personally don't understand why anyone would vote for Andy Burnham the things he's tried to do here with bringing in the ULES areas and stuff which would affect us massively, obviously I work in Manchester so it still hits Wigan and it hit Manchester and then the guy that's the reform candidate some of the things he's come out with and has been shown his previous views and things I think it's disgusting I have two young daughters so obviously for them, they're nine and six so when they're growing up in this area I want it to be safe for them and I think a lot of the things that are being pushed by reform at the moment are just sort of populist bits that they're suddenly jumping on the bandwagon the report and thing that Rupert Lowe has been pushing and trying to get answers about why we're letting a lot of these unvetted people into areas.

12:57I mean, I've lived all over the world. I've lived in Sweden and Spain and Australia, and everywhere I go, you have to fill your documentation in and make sure you're safe and you've got skill sets and things that everyone needs. And I don't get why we're putting these people, and now Labour are bringing them out of the sort of, well not really secure areas but the general areas where they are and wanting to bring into social housing as well I think it's dangerous Obviously with this election we're basically voting this area for a Prime Minister because Burnham is going to take over from Starmer Is it not a part of you that would like to beat Burnham and would be tempted to vote for reform to do that, in which case people are going to say to you, you're splitting the vote A lot of people have been saying that but at the end of the day Labour are still going to be in power it might be a different guy at the helm but the policies are pretty set I mean obviously Burnham's trying to change different things and he's saying he's gonna bring in things for local businesses and stuff yeah I don't believe the guy a lot of the stuff he's been jumping around from different areas and then like say anyone wants to come into this area to go on to be PM yeah I did previously vote reform for the local council elections because there wasn't another ticket I think that I could it was closest to sort of my views yeah but i think we need to send sort of a message to say no this is the party that we follow because of their policies um which hopefully will change all the parties to a degree if they start seeing that now this is what the electorate wants yeah then hopefully they'll start pushing things further into a direction that personally i believe in i think we need to vote for who you want not i get the tactical voting idea yeah but one mp i don't think would make a difference.

14:44I've only known you for five minutes but you're clearly a very educated, very articulate, well-traveled man with a family. Is there any bit of Restore's appeal to some people on the far right that makes you anxious about that? A little bit. I mean like with any parties there are people that are attracted that I don't personally agree with. so I know obviously I'll get called a far right supporter personally I think I'm more a bit centrist and a little bit right the goalposts seem to get shifted quite a lot but even like with the Labour Party and the far left they have issues obviously violence, protests on the street and things anti-Semitism

15:27so yeah there's always a worry with what sort of pot you're going to be put into and other people that support that but I think I don't think you can stop that from you supporting who you want to Chris, thank you so much an eye opener thank you the rain holds off yes I do too thank you take care chap bye this is a classic example of why you do have to leave the office to find out what's going on in constituencies because you could look at that flag and you could rush to judgment and say, oh, who's supporting Rupert Lowe here? They must be some kind of far-right fascist, which is what the left would accuse such voters of.

16:11We've just spoken to Chris there, a father of daughters, perfectly cogent in his views. He just wants to support who he wants to support without being tarred with everyone else's brush. Well, that conversation blew my tiny mind. I'm not going to say that I'm changing my mind the way I view Rupert Lowe or view Restore, but I will acknowledge that the person we just spoke to was incredibly well informed. Yes. Very considered. Yeah. And this goes back to what we were saying when we were standing by the flag. His objections to reform are actually a lot of other people's objections. Yes. But from the right.

16:50Yes. Namely that I think Najaf Raj doesn't spend enough time in his constituency or the House of Commons. Yeah. And he's got too many rich friends and I'm tired of him. and I want a politics which is very serious and about the issues. There is a part of Restore which is just a magnet for the loons who can't get on elsewhere. I do still think that and I can prove that by just pointing to social media accounts that bear that out. But I've known for a while Restore is also attracting intelligent people on the right who are not satisfied with reform and what they regard as the compromises it is making in order to win.

17:26And they don't care if reform losing means you get a Labour government. Having said all that, when he was talking about Farage being a populist and perhaps not particularly trustworthy, you're all going to get run over. We could have said the same perhaps of Rupert Lowe. I mean, he's got a chequered history himself. I think he's also got quite a large ego, which is something that he has in common with the reform leader. And that's why probably they fell out. I think in terms of actually doing good parliamentary work, Rupert Lowe has got a lot of credit, rightly so. for funding the independent inquiry into rape gangs.

17:59But at the same time, I'm not sure whether, in terms of ambition, there's much to separate Farage and Lowe in their assault on the world, so to speak. The reality is that right now there is almost no difference between Restore and Reform's policies on immigration and things like remigration or deportation. There's almost no difference. But the point is, as Restore people say, Rupert Lowe had to say it and embarrass Nigel for Nigel to come to his position and to take that view. And also Rigel's given credit for bringing the Conservatives back to Conservatism using entirely the same modus operandi.

18:38So we're all pulling. It's like a Death Star beam. Everyone's being pulled towards the Death Star of the right wing. And one could argue, some cynics say, that The Henry Novak response that reform has given was in part in order to keep up with restore in the rhetoric. So again, if you're a restore voter, why would you vote for Nigel, who has to be dragged to these positions? Why not just vote for the man who's been saying it all along? Right, Tim, let's head to Ashton in Makerfield. That's the big town. It's the Labour heartland where we can try and find some Burnham fanboys and girls. Right.

19:16We're now in a place called Brin which is halfway between Wigan and Ashton in Makerfield and we have knocked on several doors with reform posters and no one has answered them. Why? Because it's Alarm Clock Britain. They're all at work. They're the workers folks. Or they're lying there on the floor by the front door crying for help. Yes. completely unheard by us but I think it's more likely that actually reform is targeting the vote of people who just work jolly hard yes because just by the way it's 10.50 so actually you would be at the office or on the factory floor right now

20:01hey they think we're political we keep getting beeped Tim, we were driving down Wigan Road, appropriately named, because we're in the heart of Makerfield now, this constituency. And what better demonstration than seeing Reform and Andy Burnham fans living side by side? The Reform house has got three posters, but it's actually only one house, whereas those are three separate Labour houses. So on balance, I think Labour is winning on this stretch of road. There's only one way to settle this, Tim. We're going to knock on the doors and then invite them to fight. brawl in the street. No, we're going to knock on the door and see if we can speak to a reformer because they've been a bit lesser spotted so far.

20:43We've got to find an actual person who votes reform but is also at home today. Yeah, they're all at work. They're all at work. There's a lock on the door. You can't get in. OK. It's because they live next door to Labour people. They've had to lock their door. There's a lock on that gate. I think we go left. Pardon the expression. We go left to find the righties. Well, I think that was it. I think they've locked their front door. They've locked their front door. Oh. OK, fine. Right, we can't get in there. No, OK.

21:20We've just driven up the road, and there is the Vote Labour, Vote Andy for Us campaign HQ, and there's a little speech going on outside. Is Andy Burnham going to be here? Oh, I'm so excited. Go and see our Andy. Are these all the activists? Uh-huh. Hello. Are you expecting Andy to be here, by the way? I have no idea. No. I thought you just got here and I don't live by Andy. I shouldn't tell him by my voice. OK, cool. All right. Oh, wow. So everyone's just mobilising. Right. Mark Drakeford is here. Mark Drakeford is here. OK. Oh, from Wales. Oh. The Welsh minister. And Torsten Bell. Hello, how are you?

22:02Hi, hi. We did contact in advance. Thank you. But if Torsten would speak to us or someone who's here now, that would be perfect. Who I was at school with? Where is he? He's over there, talking to a man in a mauve jumper and he's pretending not to have seen us. Oh, yeah, great. OK. OK. So we're outside Andy Burnham's campaign HQ and we've bumped into Mick, who is campaigning with a Vote Andy sticker on. Yep. Why? Why are you supporting Burnham? Well, I've come down from Wales, and I think we've had a close relationship with Andy Burnham as Mayor of Manchester. I think he understands the decentralisation of power, he understands devolution.

22:42So we've had quite a close working relationship. I'm a former member of the Welsh Parliament, I'm now a pensioner, I have retired. But also I think his vision, his vision of getting back to, I think, some traditional Labour values, the issues of inequality and so on, that I think we need to have at the forefront. So in many ways, a breath of fresh air for Labour. It sounds to me like you're campaigning for him beyond this constituency. Are you here to support from Wales? Because actually this is more about him becoming the Prime Minister as well as becoming the MP for this area. Well, I think it's two things, isn't it?

23:16One is really important that Labour wins a by-election. And Andy Burnham clearly is someone who can and I think will win this constituency and will win hearts and minds. But I think it's also important in the long term. If there is a challenge at Westminster and we know that there's likely to be some sort of challenge, then it's important that people like Andy Burnham are within that pool of people to give people a choice. By implication, some of the stuff that you want hasn't been happening in this Labour government. Is that true? That's true. I don't think it has been strong enough in terms of devolution.

23:45I don't think it's been strong enough in terms of decentralisation of power, in terms of bringing power closer to people. So there are things there, and I think we need to be much sharper. We need to be far more focused on the issue of inequality within our society. You know, we know that inequality causes instability, political instability. And I think we have seen that over the past decade, growing gaps of wealth. And I think it's important that that is at the forefront of our message. How do you interpret the rise of reform? What does reform mean for Britain? Well, firstly, I think, you know, I'm a Ukrainian as well, so I'm really quite...

24:18Oh, I see your badge, yes. I get quite disappointed with some of this, you know, taking down Ukrainian flag, not doing solidarity. And of course, we had the leader of reform in Wales. He's now doing 10 and a half years in prison for taking Russian bribes. But for me, I think it's really an emergence of a lot of people who are angry, who feel dispossessed, who feel that the system doesn't work for them and who see this growing inequality that they don't feel part of. And that's why I keep mentioning inequality, because I think that really goes to the core of the instability that we're facing in our society.

24:51We really have to get back to some of those values that people feel that the Labour Party is a party of working people and it is a party that is actually going to do things for them. It sounds to me, Mick, as if you're disappointed with Keir Starmer and how he's led the party over the course of nearly two years now. Am I misinterpreting what you're saying? What's your analysis of Keir Starmer's premiership? My analysis is that it's been lacklustre. It has not been focused on some of the important values that I think need to come forward. has been very good on a number of areas, I think, in terms of some of the foreign policy areas, certainly in terms of support for Zelensky, that's been important work there.

25:30But at the end of the day, everything comes down, doesn't it? It comes down to the economy. It comes down to where people feel within that economy, whether they actually are sharing, whether they're getting a value of the sort of wealth of society. And I think people are seeing that that hasn't been happening. And I think it must come down to our fault. We have to reset, we have to recalibrate and make sure that those values that resulted in the formation of the Labour Party are the ones that go to the forefront. How confident are you that you can win this seat? Well, this is my first day up in Makerfield.

26:01All I do from talking to people is that the vibes are very good. There is clearly, he's well known and he clearly is popular. You know, the work that he did in respect of things like Hillsborough and so on. and of course I as a lawyer was very involved in the Rhiners strike and we saw what happened at Orgreave and so on. So that link of all those issues I think are things that do resonate with a lot of people. I think also as a regional mayor what he has shown is that people are far more in touch now with their regional identity as well. And having that regional identity is a way of actually showing that you are standing for people, that you are part of them, you are part of the community.

26:39and that is something that perhaps we've lost a little bit with this sort of over-centralisation in London. Mick, thank you so much for speaking to us and good luck on the door today. Jochim al-Aki. Sitme. That's what they say in Wales. Shumai and sitme. I mean, Mick, again, extremely articulate, a Labour right through and through. That isn't a Labour supporter that's ever going to go to reform or restore because he comes from a mining community. He's a former elected representative as well. I guess the question that people like him have got to address because he's come here from Wales, as reform also did very well in Wales.

27:12And if the issue is inequality, if people are angry because they don't see change happening fast enough, why aren't they voting for the Greens or Lib Dems? Yes. Why are they being drawn to reform? Yes. The other quite intriguing thing is Mick's quite happy to talk to us. We went up to Torsten Bell, who's a minister in the pensions department. He doesn't want to talk to us, presumably because we're the Telegraph. Now, I have written some quite negative copy about Torsten Bell, but it's interesting that you have activists on the ground who are really, really quite visibly emboldened by the idea of replacing Starmer with Burnham.

27:45You were at school with him. I was at school with Torstenberg. Is this the judge school that you attended with Torstenberg? He wouldn't even look me in the eye. Wouldn't he? Do you two have history? No, it's just I think that's the relationship between politicians and journalists. I think it's the relationship between Labour and the Telegraph. It's obviously the relationship between me and the world. But I think he doesn't want to find himself in a situation in which we're asking those very questions. Why are you here campaigning for Burnham? who has said on Question Time he will be a candidate to replace Keir Starmer.

28:13So obviously he doesn't want to answer that question. But he also wants to be here campaigning for him because Burnham will probably be the next Prime Minister. So that's going to lead to some awkward moments around the Cabinet table, isn't it? I've just been up in Makerfield campaigning, Prime Minister, doing my job for the Labour Party. Hashtag cringe. To replace you.

28:38Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover. And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more. Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization?

29:16Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget, and launch. And if you want a hand, our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence. This is podcast advertising without barriers. Get started at acast.com slash advertise.

29:50Tim, we're just hot-footing it into Makerfield Town Center because apparently Andy Burnham's been spotted. Where is he? He's not here, is he? He's not here. We need to get the old running short. Have you seen Andy Burnham this morning, sir? I'm not. Sorry. No. He's in a big entourage of people. Where is he then? Hello. Hello. We were meant to be meeting earlier on. Were we? Yeah. In the immediate term, I'm trying to find Andy Burnham. Oh, is he on the high street somewhere, is he? Yeah, apparently so. Have you seen him? Well, we think we know where he is. We think he's in a restaurant we're going to.

30:24Do you want to...? Restaurant you're going to? All right. We're literally walking there. Tim! Thinking we know where he is. Where's he going? So we've just been the guy from the climate party, Ed Gemmel, who is telling us that Andy Burnham is down at a restaurant about 100 yards away. We'll try and find him there. What's Tim doing? He's naughty. Can I just say that Tim isn't even on camera and he's gone on a run, Burnham style. I need to buy him some short shorts because I think we all want to see the Stanley recreating the 1980s. but he's basically just run off. He does this, by the way. Sometimes he just ninjas.

31:05You're like, where's Tim? In fact, the catchphrase of any outside broadcast is, where's Tim? Suddenly you'll just disappear. What are you doing? You're going on a Burnham run. What are you doing? You're right, love. I'm Andy Burnham. I'm Andy Burnham. Welcome to Maker Film. Did you literally run up there just so you could parody Andy Burnham? No, I did it because I thought I might catch up with him, but he outran me. We've just seen Ed Gemmell, who is the climate change guy, and he says that Andy Burnham's down in a restaurant down here. Fine, let's go. The things we do. We haven't found him yet.

31:39We're still looking for him. Slow down. Budden, slow down. You might go with cardiac arrest. I know, that's right. He may get a cardiac arrest, and then it will make for the podcast, you see. We might have to start reviving Tim on the street. Ed, stay there. We'll come and speak to you quickly. So she's a sixth form of doing work experience, today okay she was actually working in that restaurant so how we knew they were in there is the owner contact oh they've gone now she just asked the owner if she knows where they've gone Ed Gemmell the climate what's the particle climate change part no no it's the climate party so I'm the leader of the climate party nationally and before you ask me the question about what's the difference between us and the Green Party totally different so we are focused on British leadership of the clean industrial revolution putting 20 billion pounds a week onto the British economy by doing harder and faster what the whole of the world is doing anyway.

32:33At the moment net zero industries are growing around the world about 15 % a year. London Stock Exchange figures covering the last decade. It is the second fastest growing area in the world after AI and deep tech. So these are the biggest growing areas together they'll be 25 % of the world's economy in 2030 and we need to be leading it and why we're in this election is put right in front of probably the next Prime Minister but put it in front of him that this is the industrial opportunity of the millennia Britain's economy is bombing at the moment and the way to turn it around put it right is to do this properly and make sure we're then selling to China rather than buying from okay so let me get this right Ed you know you've got no hope of getting this constituency or winning here you are here not because you're gonna win this because you want to get alongside Andy Burnham because he's the next Prime Minister in your mind and therefore you want to canvas him and lobby him directly?

33:23It's our number two aim. So our number one aim is to put this in front of the public so that the public get the point that Britain at the moment needs an industrial plan. It needs a vision. It needs leadership and a vision going forward to put things right. And that's the economy. We get the economy going, we put everything else right, whether it's immigration, potholes, health, whatever. Second is to talk to Andy Burnham and put it right in front of his nose that this is the way to go and give him the opportunity to create this industrial plan. And the third is related to the Green Party and reform.

33:53It's to poke the Greens in the eye and say, look, you've got a great platform at the moment, but you're not green anymore. You're not talking about the environment. And with reform, this crap about de-industrialisation coming from net zero, which is utterly untrue, since we brought in the Climate Change Act in this country, manufacturing as a percentage of our economy has gone down very slightly. And in the 50 years before that, it went down 30%. and we want to tell reform, stop telling everybody this crap about it being de-industrialisation. It isn't. It's actually stabilising it and starting to re-industrialise.

34:22Ed, if you see Andy Burnham, can you give us a ring? Yeah, sure. All right, we're trying to find him. Thank you very much. Thank you.

34:31Couldn't find him. It was boring. He's got in another direction or jumped in a car. Annoying. Tim, Michael Winstanley, who's standing next to us, may disagree with this, but I think we have found the only Tory in the village. Am I being harsh, Michael? All I'm saying is, look, conservatives are a little lesser spotted in this former mining town. And you are here, and you did a very good job on question time, but do you feel you're having to be quite persuasive of the good people of Makerfield to vote for you? I've born and bred in this constituency, so I know how it's always been difficult for Conservatives in this area.

35:10There's a lot of shy Conservatives about who don't like to admit they vote Conservative but when they get to the ballot box in that privacy they do vote for us and when I've been going round knocking on doors postal votes have started to go out and people are saying you know I've already voted for you, you did a good job for us as local councillor and I'm voting for you. So they are out there, we might not have spotted them but it's like birdwatches, you've got to keep looking. yours was by far my favourite performance on question time i thought you were very good because you said you didn't think the by-election should be happening explain that well this by-election has been created just to uh fulfill one man's ego uh andy burnham has constantly said the mayor of manchester was the greatest job that could ever be he realized you couldn't do anything in westminster you had to have devolution and then suddenly we find that we're in this media circle of, oh, Andy Burnham wants to get back in, Josh Simons resigns less than two years after being elected to Parliament, and now we're in this sort of like, quite ridiculous sort of like by-election.

36:14So for me, it's rank hypocrisy from the Labour Party. There's no need for this by-election, let alone the cost of it. You know, about a quarter of a million, and then if, and it's a big if, if he gets elected, it's another four or five million for a mayoral election on top of that. But isn't it a little bit of a waste of your time? I say that with the greatest respect, Michael. We've been around this whole constituency. We've seen loads of Andy Burnham posters, that strange emoji that seems to be doing the round. We've seen reform everywhere. I have not seen a Tory poster or leaflet. In order for the right to defeat Burnham, you should probably stand down and so should restore and just let Farage win this seat because otherwise you're basically paving Burnham's path to Downing Street glory.

36:58But at the end of the day, we are a Conservative Party. reform aren't a Conservative Party and neither are restored. I've always taken the view that people should stand in elections. We live in a democracy. The reason why we live in a democracy is because people can stand and people can choose who they want. So if we weren't on the ballot paper, lots of people would be disenfranchised. And for me, this is about electing someone that cares about this community. I only want to be the MP for Makerfield. I don't want to use this as a stepping stone. So for me, people have a right to vote Conservative and that's what we're doing at this election.

37:29In what sense are you more conservative than reform? Well, as far as I can see from a reform perspective, they believe in quite big government, they lack a lot of nationalisation, they're all over the place on benefit reform, welfare reform. So for me, there's only the Conservatives that's actually laying out an articulate case as to how we can get this country back on track from this shambolic Labour government. Realistically, how many votes do you think you can get? Luke, I'm trying to get as many votes as I possibly can so I'm not going to put a number on it I'm just going to sort of like try and maximise my vote from now until polling day Alright, well we wish you all the very best of luck with this by-election Michael Thank you Right, so we're outside the food warehouse in the middle of Ashton in Makerfield Margaret, you've lived here for how long?

38:17About 60 years And I just wanted to chat to you because Tim and I stumbled upon you and you said you were undecided and it's quite hard to decide who to vote for in this by-election. Why? Well, I won't tell you which paper I read because my friends always say I'm too prejudiced when I read it. Is it the Telegraph? No. Is it the Mail? It's the Mail. That's all right. That's enough. Go on. Yeah. You might be minded to vote for reform then. I was. I was at first, yes, I was thinking about voting for reform. But I've read so many things recently that I don't like. I'm veering towards Labour but I don't know because Andy Burnham does keep changing his mind as well about what he's going to do.

39:03Well do you know what this is interesting because Tim wrote a piece about them all appearing on Question Time, all the candidates I believe so, yeah and people said look they all looked a bit inadequate, maybe that's the problem Margaret no one here is good enough no, no I think so I think we want people who are statesman I know that sounds stupid, but nobody looks as if they're, I don't know, they know what they're talking about. They keep changing their minds, don't they? All right, so you remain undecided until the big day. Margaret, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. I hope none of my friends are watching this.

39:37Don't go mad. I love that from Margaret because she's making the point. This is a point that keeps on being made. Are any of these candidates good enough? It's a good point. It's a good point to be made. Thank you, Margaret. We'll have to find some new ones, won't we? We'll have to, yeah. Maybe you should stand, Margaret. You see? Thank you very much. Madam, you're not a reform supporter, are you? No. No? All right, thank you. How hard is it? This isn't so ironic that we can't actually find anyone. That's a theme, isn't it? We've spoke to quite a few people who wouldn't say on the record they supported reform.

40:09You're shaking your head at me, sir. Can you read body language? Yes, I can. Yeah, very well indeed. Ladies, you aren't minded to vote reform, are you, in this by-election? No. You're not minded to vote for reform, are you? No. Are you a reformer? A reform voter? I'm not sure who I am, to be honest. No, that's what... Hello. That's why you shouldn't vote for Labour. Oh, are you... Oh, my goodness. Who are you supporting? I'm going to vote reform. Can I have your name? Helen. Helen. Helen has passed us a very helpful double-site, a two-page note about why people should not vote Labour. I probably will vote for reform.

40:48Right. Although I think a lot of the candidates are not worthy of being politicians. Here in Ashton and the whole of this area, it's been Labour for 120 years and the place is an absolute mess, a complete disgrace. Boarded up shops, tumble down buildings. As you come into the town here, you've got three of the biggest buildings on each of the intersections. Cross keys, king's arms and the fleece. They've got rats as big as double-decker buses running around at the back of the place. Hang on a minute, Helen. We thought it was quite nice. We came up here. We've been in the town centre. We've been in the surrounding area.

41:26It all looks quite well-maintained. You've got a new footpath being built here. The roads are much better than my parts of leafy Hertfordshire. I mean, isn't it quite a nice constituency, really? No. These buildings have been derelict for ten years. So, Helen, are you agreeing with Nigel Farage, then, that Britain is broken and he's the only man who can fix it? I'm not sure if he's the only man who can fix it, but certainly Labour aren't going to fix it. They've had 120 years to fix Ashton, and it's as bad now as it was in the 1970s. There's no facilities, there's never been any infrastructure built here.

42:00There's nowhere for young people to go. There's no youth clubs, there's no luncheon clubs. The shops are a mess. Someone counted, there are 24 nail bars and beauty salons just along this high street. There's no greengrocer, there's no DIY shop, there's no bookshop, there's no fish shop, there's no furniture shop, you name it. None of these things are here. You don't find the idea of having an MP who is the PM attractive? Because that's what you're voting for here, right? It is, that's what they're going to do. But all you're going to do is just give you more labour. It's not going to make any difference.

42:33He might try and tweak his policies, but at the moment he's got no mandate to do anything. And who's going to say they'll go along with what he'll do? They're not going to do anything about immigration. they're not going to do anything about two-tier policing, two-tier health services, two-tier education, two-tier everything. So the country's falling apart and you can only blame, in this constituency, Labour for it. Helen, thank you very much indeed for being firmly off the fence in your view of this Labour government. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you. Thank you.

43:04Bye-bye. I did watch your podcast, by the way. Oh, thank you very much. Well, you'll see yourself on it. There you are. Helen, you're going to be on it. Same at last. You see, that is a really interesting insight from Helen, who actually lives here. If you want things to change, why would you vote for four more years of Labour? Yes. I mean, that is the point. Labour keeps on going on. And this is the Burnham thing. All of these areas have been run down. OK, we've had Tory governments and Labour governments, but the MPs here have always consistently been Labour. Surely you blame yourself if you haven't managed to change these constituencies.

43:37And are we seeing here that old tension that you often mention of town versus city? Yes. That cities which are sexier and have been gentrified and have upmarket people tend to attract top brands and things don't stay empty for long. But Burnham thinks it's all about north versus south. Yeah. Increasingly, yeah, this is about, it doesn't matter where you are, it's about the prosperity and regeneration of cities versus towns that have been completely left behind. And that isn't a northern issue. you could see that on the south coast. Why is there so much support for somebody like Farage in seaside towns and that is because they feel that they're the ones who are forgotten.

44:16It doesn't matter whether they've got a southern accent or not or whether they're close to the M25. They're making the exact same complaint as people much further north and I think that's significant. We have struggled to find people who will say on camera that they are voting reform. We have met people from outside the constituency who have been quite happy to say that. But we haven't met many people inside who have been willing to say that. despite all of the posters and banners and things, there's still an element of, I don't want to be seen saying it on camera, in case my friends are watching.

44:43Exactly. So that's another indication, though, isn't it? The polling is putting, at the moment, Burnham slightly ahead. But are there going to be some secret reformers? I bet people are lying. Once you're in the ballot box, might you just tick reform because you don't mind doing it in secret but not admitting it in public? Yeah. vote Andy for us lots of posters there on this building on this pub, I mean will he be toasting victory here on June the 18th Tim, what's your what I don't feel we have found is the our Andy enthusiasm that his campaign is projecting and trying to give the impression of this is a vote for a local hero I don't see that, because I think the voters the ones we've spoken to, they're very reasonable and rational they know this seat is being used yes, it's a stepping stone They might be fine with that because they want to kick out Starmer or whatever, but what I don't get is a sense of a coronation because the people, at least that we've spoken to, are madly in love with this guy.

45:42Yes, that's right. I think Andy Burnham isn't quite as popular as Andy Burnham thinks he is. Probably because he's somebody from Manchester, not this part of Wigan in political terms. I know he grew up around the corner here, but people see him as a city of Manchester person rather than somebody who represents this suburban community. Yes. I think that's problematic. Yes. I still suspect on balance it will work. I think he will win. But I don't see this as the thrilling rocket take-off that his campaign would like us to believe it is. Because I just don't think people are as invested in as much as he is in the idea of...

46:22It's a new politics. I know, but... Doing a new politics. Having said all that, if he does win, Is it existential for reform? It is, because, as we have said, if they can't stop Andy Burnham here, they won't be able to stop Andy Burnham in other Red Wall seats when he is leader of the Labour Party. Yeah. They needed to stop him here because they have to prove to the world that they are the opposition party. Yeah, rather than just a protest. Well, here was your chance because you ran against the Prime Minister. But also, if they don't win this because the right is divided, then it's going to be a very salient lesson for the right in terms of the importance of tactical voting.

46:58The left have been doing it for years. They're very good at it. I think it will then engender more of a conversation about a future coalition on the right because if this is the test case for the rest of the country at the next general election, then whether they like it or not, the right are going to have to bash their heads together to come up with a solution to keep Labour out or, in their minds, something even worse, a Lib Lab Green alliance. Join us again next Friday when we're going to have a results special immediately after the by-election itself. Well, explain how or why the man behind me either won or lost.

47:34And we will be back on Monday at 5pm.

48:22Thank you. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more.

48:55largest podcast marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.