‘Meghan’s spending too much!’: The late Queen’s angry phone call with Harry revealed

0:02The Telegraph

0:10There's been a royal reckoning over recent years, beginning with Megxit, ending with the fall of the grand old Duke of York. Here to discuss whether the monarchy is losing its grip is Robert Jobson, the godfather of royal reporting, with his new book. And in the book I'm going to tell you why the Queen really fell out with Harry and Meghan and what sort of king William will be. Welcome to this special Daily Tea with me, Camilla Tominy.

0:43Rob, we know each other well. We've been behind many ropes and on many red carpets together, have we not? Travelled around the world with the royals. This is your new book in my hands, The Windsor Legacy, A Royal Dynasty of Secret, Scandal and Survival, which I'm told is your 22nd book. I don't know exactly how many books I've read, but I do know that at least three or four of them, Well, at least three of them made it into the number one or top ten, so that's quite good. It's very good. I mean, you've followed this lot for such a long time, gosh, longer than I have because I've dipped in and out.

1:13I must say that the old grand old Duke of York saga, I was worried at one stage, at a stage where it looked as if Queen Elizabeth II's legacy was about to be trashed, questions asked about whether she funded the$12 million compensation out-of-court settlement, whatever you want to call it, to Geoffrey Epstein's main accuser, Virginia Giffray, now deceased, took her own life in April. I thought this is getting really dicey because if you're going to start trashing the legacy of the late Queen, it's game over, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think that the Queen did her best to sort of make things as smooth as possible for Andrew.

1:52I mean, there was a piece in the book where I talk about when she was going to take the HRH away from him, she was going to do it on her mother to son and then two very senior aides wouldn't allow to do that. They wanted to be witness to the conversation. So they were obviously the men in grey suits or the men and women in grey suits behind the palace were very conscious of Andrew from what had been for quite a long while, even when the Queen Elizabeth was in the end of her reign. I think that they were very conscious of how to deal with it and wanted everything signed off, witnessed and legal.

2:22And even at that stage, when they removed that, you know, deeply upsetting for him at the time and for probably the Queen as well. But she made a statement, really, when there was the memorial the year on from Prince Philip's death where he was allowed to escort her into the abbey. Now, those sort of things showed you that she still believed him. She still believed in her son. And he obviously was telling her the same, spinning the same line then that he has been, saying that he had no recollection of this woman, that he has no recollection. He hasn't done these things, you know, and he wanted to fight on in those days.

2:54But somewhere the money came from somewhere, which was a lot of money, it's reported to be 12 million. Well, that must have come somewhere from the Queen's coffers. The reality of it all is it's begun to unravel, but no new evidence has really come out of this. Even this new book that she's got out posthumously after the tragic need to grow in life doesn't have any new evidence. And if you remember rightly also without being too critical of her and the actual evidence when it was put before some US judges pretty much threw it out. Yes. So what worries me or concerns me now is somewhere on the line, something has happened where more evidence, the king or William or someone has seen something or has more information than we have.

3:41And if that's why they're active, we should really have that information. Ah, but hang on. Isn't it just a reaction to both Andrew and his ex-wife, Sarah Ferguson, being caught in a lie? Both of them in the last few weeks have been exposed for lying when they said they broke off all contact with Epstein. They both do mea culpa's. Andrew loses his trade envoy role. This is back in 2011. Sarah Ferguson, at a similar time, there's an admission that she's taken 15 grand from Epstein. She describes it as a gigantic error of judgment. They're both judged not in the court of law, but in the court of public opinion.

4:14But they lied. That's right. And then they both sent him grovelling messages saying, actually, what I've said publicly is not what I think private is. I think without doubt his lie unravels because he gave that interview to Emily Maitlis in which he spelt out all sorts of things. And you can't really believe any of them once you've got that light. I think with Sarah Ferguson, I think that, I mean, maybe I'm slightly blinded by knowing her. I think, yes, she's wrong and you can't ignore those statements. But I think to couple them all in under the same banner with Epstein, he's probably wrong. She took money from him.

4:44She shouldn't have done. She probably shouldn't have done that. But the reality, is she as guilty as him in all this? I probably don't think so. and I think we do have to be a bit conscious of that. That said... You've got a brilliant Fergie story, haven't you? Because weren't you once... Well, you've got loads of good stories of loads of good people. I remember you telling me this on a tour or something. Didn't you end up in a tent with her or something? I actually was on the trip with the old friend Charlie Ray and Ted Verity, who was now the editor-in-chief of the Mail. We were on a charity trip with Fergie and it was when we got to a place called Namchi Bazaar, which is the Sherpa capital of the world.

5:20In the mid-90s, this was. So I don't think I'll be able to climb up to that height of Everest now. But we'd been trekking all day and we got there and we had these satellite phones as big as this table and we checked in and in those days they said, oh, we've just heard that Steve Wyatt, her beau, had just got married. We need a reaction from her. So we drew lots. I was sent dispatched to get a statement out of it and she was, as you can imagine, quite upset about it all and we got a statement. And I returned with a few words after two hours, to which Charlie Ray wasn't very happy, the man who was up to Sunday.

5:58He said, well, is that all you've got? Actually, I did have a whole load of letters that she'd given to me that I was going to take to the ambassador in Nepal, which were written to Andrew. And no, we didn't do anything untoward, even though I think... No, amazing. Wasn't it tempting to have a look at him? No, not at all. I wasn't, but I was probably very young. No, it was a private letters, but I think that when I was walking down, my good friend, Mr Ray, was going, what have you got in your pouch? Yeah, quite. There was a load of suspicion among the royal press pack. It was interesting times.

6:26But I mean, all I'm saying with Sarah, I'm not saying that she's innocent in any way. What I'm saying is that she's getting the same level of criticism as him. And I don't think that's probably fair, personally. Although there's something deeply sordid about the nature of his relationship with Epstein. We still don't know how much money Epstein ever gave either of them. and you reveal in your book drugs and sexual paraphernalia, including condoms, lubricants and poppers, which is a drug associated actually with homosexual sex. Is it? I think so. Were reportedly found in bathrooms at Sandringham following a 2000, a year 2000 party, hosted by Andrew for Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

7:10Clearly not a straightforward shooting party. Well, he claimed it was a shooting party. The staff were quite shocked that they had to... Not only was it they found, they were put out in the bedrooms. They were actually laid out for the guests. So what's your analysis of those times? If you look back to Epstein Island, the Lolita Express, to what went on in the New York flat, obviously we're just speculating here, but it's created an image that obviously nefarious activity was going on, including sex trafficking with underage girls. The fact that there were so many high rollers who were kind of woven into this web is in itself intriguing.

7:45Prince Andrew's one of them. We now have evidence of sexual paraphernalia being found following a shooting party. I mean, what are you deducing from it, Robert? Well, that nobody thought they'd ever be found out. I think that these people were out of control. They thought they could do what they wanted to do and no one would find out. But the bottom line is it's simply not acceptable. The relationship with Epstein, they knew pretty early on, I would think that the guy was in trouble in terms of he was being investigated. And they knew pretty early on, Andrew knew pretty early on, that he was going to be implicated.

8:21I think that the emails that came up subsequently really damn him terribly. I really do. I think that he, you know, I don't know what happens to him now. What I find intriguing, though, is that the Palace, even though there's been no change in the story in 15 years, I mean, the allegations have been made... Well, it's got worse and worse, seemingly, but it's all of the same theme. But the same allegations. The allegations are that he had sex three times with Virginia Dufresne. And therefore it's statutory rape, because she was a trafficked girl under the age of 18 in certain states. Which he denies, continues to deny.

8:53He totally denies it, but we don't know. All we know is suddenly, somehow, the palace are now taking a draconian view on it. They said, right, we're going to strip you of everything. You're no longer this, this and that. You're going to lose your role as even a prince, as well as kick you out of the house. But isn't it because, this is my analysis of it, he was overindulged by his non-confrontational mother who loved him very much. She was meant to be the son she had for herself after she gave birth to the heir. We could have a debate, actually, about why Prince Philip, who was a man who didn't suffer fools gladly, didn't step in and take control of this errant black sheep of the family, but whatever.

9:30And the king has been pushed into doing this by Prince William, who is conscious that it has been extremely damaging to the brand and does not want, as king, to have his errant uncle anywhere near the operation. And you can understand all of that, except for what you do do is for people like Republic and others who really, if you open the door, where do you draw this line now? I mean, would this have happened under Queen Elizabeth? I don't think so. I mean, Queen Elizabeth was paying for Andrew to have£32 ,000, you know, worth of gurus come round to his royal lodge from India and have all the chanting and all these all out of the world.

10:08Did he want that off Ergie? That was him. That was Andrew. Who thought he might be a spiritual man? Yeah, well, he was praying, praying. But the bottom line is I think that that's now taken away. So that's proven. So anybody else has things that are wrong and do things that are wrong, does that mean we're going to take that away from the titles there? And does it mean it weakens the monarchy or strengthens it? I think it probably undermines it to a degree. Yes. Because you're showing that actually you're dealing with taking things away from people that are unelected. Even in the days of the Saxon times, you had a thing called the Witton, where the earls and the landowners could vote on who their monarch was going to be.

10:49If the son was clearly not good enough or had problems, they wouldn't put him in. There are no checks and balances. And so by doing this, you're saying, well, that person's unsuitable. Get rid of them from the royal family. So I think the royal family have got to... William's got to watch what he wants. I mean, he wants to halve the amount of staff involved. He wants royalty with a small r. Many people agree with that, but you've got to remember, and I think it's quite worth saying, you mustn't alienate the people that support the traditional monarchy, the people that have backed you for many years, to appeal to or to appease the people that you want to appeal to, who don't actually believe in the monarchy anyway.

11:24No. And particularly when you've got a lot of younger people in this country that think that there's no need for them whatsoever. So is the future of the monarchy in jeopardy then? We have Prince William and Kate Catherine, who I think actually have become more relatable post her cancer diagnosis. If we look at the videos that were recorded, you revealed that Queen Camilla found the lovey-dovey video of her... Yeah, I think Camilla is... You know, running her fingers through the weeks. I think it was a slow motion. Look, all Camillas have a sense of humour. I think the Queen... What did Camilla say about the video?

11:55It was like it was a shampoo commercial. But I think she said it in a way that it wasn't cruel. I think she was saying it as quite funny. You know, she's quite a funny lady so she would have said it that way. But we have this couple that were previously quite austere, quite untouchable, quite old before their time, didn't do any public displays of affection, transformed into this loving, you know, picture of kind of a royal love story for 2025, whatever. But then we have William in Brazil doing his Earthshot prize thing, which exemplifies this whole new approach to royalty, which is thematic royalty.

12:31We're going to be talking about early childhood. We're going to be talking about the environment. The trouble is with it, it isn't Princess Anne royalty. It isn't going to the openings of the envelopes, unveiling the plaques, planting the trees and pressing the flesh. And I do worry about whether the institution can survive if it doesn't have those key moments, if it doesn't have a lot of engagements in the diary. Because comparatively to the likes of Princess Anne, are the Waleses doing enough? You become like a political party. I mean, the reality is with the royal family is that they've always had enough staff members and people that are on the side to go to the opening of the Windsor show or the Essex show or then they do a charitable organisation.

13:14And it does actually intrinsically link people. You get a lot of people turn out to those events. And people like Princess Anne who doesn't really get very much publicity, but she's always out there working, as does Edwin and Sophie. They're both always out there working. They're connecting every day. The local papers are reporting, the local radio. And so there is a lot of traction there. I think by becoming too thematic, you almost put yourself above what monarchy is all about, which is the day-to-day. I mean, whisper it, sorry, but I did report once, I'm sure you did too, that they were nicknamed back in the day the can't-do-won't-do Cambridges.

13:49Are they actually just a little bit lazy? Or are they trying to be really good parents and put immediate family before the family firm? I think the latter. I think that they've got that priority. There's no doubt that that's in their mind. I mean, I caveat all this by saying, We appreciate she had cancer and you have to take time off that, but this was being said before she was diagnosed. I think that actually, with all respect to that, I think that Catherine is seen as the glue, really, of this modern monarchy. Her role as a mother with the princesses, George, Charlotte, Princess Charlotte and Louis, is very important.

14:22But I do think they do put that first, something that the late queen wasn't able to do. Nor was Diana, really. Diana was forced into doing things that she didn't really want to do. I mean, she kicked and screamed. She took the child and went in with her to Australia. She made sure she'd make changes. But she was going against the grain and it was difficult for her. But maybe they want to avoid the mistakes of the past. They want to avoid the dysfunctionality, frankly, that is associated now with two generations of spares. We had Andrew going off the rails and that's ended very badly as he continues with his private life as a Mountbatten-Windsor somewhere on the Sandringham estate.

15:02We then got Prince Harry, obviously marries Meghan. It all goes pear-shaped and makes it happen. Perhaps he's happier now. Who knows? I mean, there seems to be a hankering for him to reconnect with his British life. He did the 600-word essay for Remembrance Day, reasserting what it means to be British. I mean, I think he longs for a relationship with the UK. She doesn't, but I think he does. It's a difficult role. I mean, Princess Margaret had a similar situation and all these. I understand that, but I think that really the monarchy, if they're going to go into the 21st century, I think that, yes, I understand what William and Catherine are doing.

15:36I actually agree with it, but what I think that they've got to realise is you can't have anomalies such as the Duke of Sussex, Prince Harry, being in line to the throne when he's rejected the throne. He's trashed his family. He does what he lives abroad. You can't have him. I think they've got to sort... What should he be taken out of? I think so. I don't think he should be given... I don't think he should be the Duke of Sussex. I don't think he should be Prince Harry. Well, Andrew should therefore also be taken out of line. Absolutely, without a question. I think the line of succession needs to be much clearer than it is.

16:06Wow, OK. Because you've got these situations where, what if there was a terrible accident? You know, as it stands, Prince Harry could be king. Now, given what's happened, I don't think that's... He's basically now affected what is an American. He lives in America. He's rejected the idea of working for the monarchy. Although he says he didn't. He said he wanted it half in, half out. Well, you can't do that. I think, really, in all honesty, it should be cut. So we have now at the moment down to Louis. There is no need, really. No, but what role will these children have? We know what Prince George's role will be.

16:41That'll be the focus. But do you think Charlotte and Louis will be expected to be working royals or will they be able to have their own careers? I think Charlotte will probably be a working role. oh, I don't know if Louis will. I don't think it's necessary. Louis are probably, the way they do these things is end up in the military or something. But the reality is that that whole thing has now changed with the end of male primogeniture. Charlotte, her role is there. It's very clear she will have a role above Louis. So there really isn't very much need to have more than an heir and a spare. And I think that...

17:15What about poor Louis? He seems like a right character. Which is a great character. I'm sure we'll all have fun and people that will be doing this in years to come writing about him. But I think that he probably won a life rather than just be a character. No, I get that. And I think that people like Zara Phillips I've interviewed and Peter Phillips are great living examples that they can get on, have a career, be very successful in their field and still have a life and still be related without a title. Exactly, because they didn't have a title. I mean, the Wales children all have titles. They remain having titles.

17:44But no one else needs to be. No. There doesn't need to be anybody else. And I think if you've rejected the system and made it very clear that you are effectively an American citizen, there is no need for Prince Harry to be Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex. It's a nonsense. I love some of the revelations in the book about what went wrong for Harry and Meghan when it comes to their relationship with the late Queen. And as is ever the case, often with family disputes, some of it does boil down to money. A lot of it. A lot of it. Well, I always used to find it strange that people seem to be ignoring the elephant in the room.

18:15Lots of talk on Oprah and Netflix about woe is me, we're being mistreated, we're the victims of racism, stroke, unconscious bias and all the rest of it. And not enough emphasis on the truth behind their impetus to go to America, which is spelt out very clearly in the Megxit statement, and there is a financial imperative behind it. It was clear from the moment that Meghan came into the royal family that she didn't think they were making enough money. Well, she was shocked, I think. I mean, there was Harry living in Nottingham, you know, Nottingham College, just behind the facade of Kensington Palace.

18:47Maybe she thought Kensington Palace was the entire house. And I think at that stage, William and Catherine had just been given apartment 1A and they'd had it all done up. A lot of taxpayers' money was spent as well. And I think when they invited them over from this two-bedroom, two-up, two-down Nottingham College and said, I'd come round to have tea, I think she was probably quite shocked. And at that time, remember, you know, Harry and Meghan were seen as the star couple. And so she probably thought, well, hang on, And if I'm the star of a movie, I get the most money. Yeah, I get the biggest trailer.

19:16And I've got nothing here. But I don't think she fully understood. If they'd shown a bit of time, let it run a little bit and shown a little bit of patience, I think it would have all worked out. But they didn't have any patience at all. There was a lot of conflict going on. There was a lot of problems, as you know, as you broke most of the stories at the time, about the conflicts that were going on behind the scenes. and it was not a good situation. And look, sister-in-laws don't have to get on. No. They're very different women. And older brothers, you know, they do fall out. And once the sister-in-laws are not getting on, it's harder for the brothers to get on.

19:51Exactly. And so the whole thing, it just did fell apart. And when Harry obviously got married, I think he expected to get basically more money and Charles would say, well, I've got this amount of money and it's going to be divided this way, more money on the Cambridges, which I think certainly shocked the Sussexes. Well, you can tell from Spare, it's dripping with resentment at how his brother was favoured at every turn, be it the size of his bedroom, you know, the fact that he was allowed to have a beard. I understand all that and I get it to a degree. But, you know, Diana tried to keep them balanced and keep it, you know, they were on the same level.

20:27But they were never going to be on the same level. No. Because William was going to be the king. And when he got the duchy, you know, the king became king, he gets the Dutch in Cornwall. With the Dutch in Cornwall, it's generating£23,£24 million every year. Yes. Well, that's a big difference to what Harry was getting. But I do think the Queen and the Prince of Wales, as he was, did try to give Harry as much money and help as possible. Well, you report that she got annoyed when Harry used to phone her at 5pm. Why? Because she was having tea. That's when she has her tea. She also took a call from Harry and then reportedly remarked more money, rolling her eyes.

21:01Yeah, I think that she got fed up. I think the point was is that they had spent a lot of money. They had supported Harry. He was then saying later, I never got any. He did. He got many, many, many thousands of pounds, more than we could probably know, to the point where the king said, I'm not a bank anymore. Yes. So that's quite telling. Oh, the bank of mum and dad. It affects the royals as much as the rest of us, Rob. Yeah, but the thing is, I think there are zeros afterwards a bit more. Yeah, indeed. And ultimately, I think that they decided you can't have it both ways. and that's what they wanted.

21:34Also, the Queen thought that Meghan was spending too much on clothes. She did. And she, I mean, some people might criticise that because, of course, in the 40s and in the 50s, you know, when she was being dressed for these tours, there was a lot of money spent on clothes. Yes, but maybe not 60 ,000 quid on one Dior gown that Meghan wore during the 2019 Morocco tour. I think that that was seen as over the top, not sending out the right message. The Queen, at the end, I think, was always about the right message. I think she basically throughout her life got it exactly right. She could read the situation.

22:06She wasn't afraid to dip into letters, which would be open letters, and see if there was criticism. She wasn't afraid to read the papers, unlike some other royals. She literally did try to keep a gauge on the mood of the nation. And I remember speaking to Charles Ansela, press secretary, who said to me, you know, you just have to tell the Queen what's going on. She doesn't want it edited. She just wants to listen, then she can make a judgment. Sure. That's probably what kept her on top of things. What's the truth about the name Lilibet that the Sussexes gave to their second child? Well, I think, you see, if you remember the time, I think the palace briefed the BBC and there was a big row when the BBC went out and said about the Lilibet story and I think Harry threatened to sort of take action, didn't happen.

22:50But my understanding of what actually really happened was it's quite straightforward. They did tell the Queen. They wanted to name their daughter after the Queen. but the Queen just assumed it was Elizabeth because that's her name. And when she found out it was Lillibet, she was a bit irritated. She found out by reading the paper but you can sort of understand that because Lillibet, it's not a name. It's a name that her grandparents used for. It's a nickname. And it was her. It was special to her. And so in a way I could see where she was a little bit peeved or more so. But you can also understand that the Sussexes said, well, we told her.

23:26But it's just a misunderstanding, I think.

23:39We mentioned earlier, we talked about the duchies, so the king is supported by the Duchy of Lancaster and then the Prince of Wales is supported by the Duchy of Cornwall. We've had a lot of rhetoric from Republic in recent weeks in relation to the Andrew scandal, calling for more transparency when it comes to the royal finances, calling for the whole duchy arrangement to be torn up and everything changed. I mean, to be fair, there are some arguments for more transparency, aren't they? The sovereign grant, for instance, which is how the rulers derive their money, that's risen by 53%. It's now at 132.1 million.

24:15Even George Osborne thinks he went over the top and given out some money. Yes. We've then got the fact that the king pays income and capital gains tax, but is exempt from inheritance tax. We've had some criticism in the past about the lack of transparency around royal wills, because that might have helped us to find out how indeed the Yorks were being funded when it came to living in Royal Lodge. How much money did he get from the Queen Mother? How much money did he get from his own late mother? Do you think that the royal finances are too opaque? I think they are, but it's not going to change until there's government officials and the government and the cabinet decide to make a move on that and say we want to do it.

24:52And whilst the system is as it is, whenever you're in government or anybody who'd been calling for it out of government seems to forget about it when they get in the position of power. Yes. Funny enough, they don't want to rock that boat. Because they then start rocking their own boat and seeing what privileges some of these people in the cabinet have got. But we've just seen a democratic socialist stroke communist, if you want to call it that, Mandami, elected to New York. There is a rising sentiment of, I think, socialist sympathy among the young. We've got a cost of living crisis on. You know as well as I do because I know you've got a son, I've got three children.

25:25it's becoming increasingly unaffordable for them to own a home, to earn a lot of money. They're going to look at these royals. It's all very well thinking about us and our generation or even our parents, okay, who put the royals on a pedestal and felt that they were entitled to live such a privileged life. The Gen Zs and the Gen Alphas of this world are going to look at this multiple home occupancy situation and say, hang on a minute, if I can't get on the property ladder, why do people just born with a silver spoon get to prosper? Well, look, Prince William is now 43. Most people in London, if they're 43 and they start to get on the property ladder, that's about how long it's going to take if they're lucky.

26:04I think that it's all well and good calling for the end of homelessness, and I think that's right that he's doing what he's doing. But, you know, he's got three homes, you know, at least. Give one up to the homeless. I just think, you know, it's not an easy message there. When you're trying to appeal to people that don't really support you, I understand why you're going that extra mile to push that. And William would argue, well, if I don't do anything, if I do something, at least I'm making a difference, which is true. But at the same time, you are appealing to people that don't want you. And you're trying to get them on your side.

26:36Whilst at the same time, you may be rejecting people that have signed up to be supporters of you. Exactly. And I think that by getting rid of the tradition, by getting rid of what they do generally, which has been accepted and complemented, Rather like actually the state visit with Trump, although a lot of people disagree or agree with him, it doesn't matter. That actual get-together around a table with big players all in the Great Hort Windsor, you know, murder was there. A lot of people, big players were around that table and a lot of business was done. Now, you may say convening in the royal family and all this was wrong, but it worked.

27:11And I think where it works, you don't want to just take it away. No. And I think that the trouble at the moment is a lot of younger people don't really want to see that and don't like the way that that is done, business behind closed doors. They want things to be a bit more transparent. And the royal family could help themselves by being a bit more transparent, I think. I think they should do. But to take the conversation full circle, I mean, we're asking whether the monarchy is losing its grip. The person that can reaffirm the importance of the monarchy, along with Kate, who I agree is the star player of the scene, wife of a future king, mother of a future king, she is the star power player.

27:47Who went to work on a double-decker bus, who knows what a mortgage is. Who knows what a mortgage is, at least had, OK, a privileged middle-class upbringing, but she had a normal upbringing. She seems a well-adjusted woman. I think so. She's compared with the late Queen for never putting a foot wrong. Saw her at Wimbledon in the summer. She gets a standing ovation. The public love her. But this is now all on William's shoulders. He appears as if he will have a long reign, possibly in the vein of his grandmother, because he is no doubt going to inherit the throne as a middle-aged man. What's he actually like, Robert?

28:19Is he going to be a good king? Because he can be difficult, doesn't he? He's tricky. I think there's no doubt that the king used to get on better with Harry. Really? Why do you say that? That's what I understand to be the truth. I mean, I think that the people that know them well said that that was part of the heartbreaking side of this whole fallout, was that the king and Harry used to sort of see eye to eye more. They used to have more time. They used to get each other more. was I think with William and the King, there's always been clashes, clashes over the ivory in the royal collection, clashes over just little things.

28:52The appearance of Prince George, I remember, in a photograph on a desk. They had a massive row about that. He can be quite, not controlling, but he's a bit tricky, really got a bit of a temper. Well, you use the following words to describe William. You say he's occasionally been over-assertive, can be difficult to handle, with aides approaching sensitive matters carefully. Despite his public composure, insiders describe William as prone to mood swings. I think that's fair, yeah, as I wrote it. But also I think that if you go and speak to a few people off the record, they would say that's probably being generous.

29:27And I also know that the members of the royal family will, they will just wait to see what way the wind's blowing before they raise certain issues. I mean, the king, they have a good working relationship. They understand each other, But they're not necessarily always on the same wavelength. You know, there's been many instances where they're not. And I think that the king is more in tune with what's going on now. I think particularly the post-cancer diagnosis seems to be a much more human person. Yes. Whereas before he was, I think, this very almost not academic but more intellectual figure. Professorial.

30:02Yeah. And above it, I think he's very much with, you know, you see him, you go to a cancer ward with him and he's, you know, he's completely at one with the people there. and they get him. And I think he's... So he's had a personal reckoning, let's be honest. I think he certainly has. But also he was always, you know, I think he's had a pretty tough time over the years. You know, I was around when Charles and Diana were around and it was not, you know, the greatest time. But equally, I was going to say something about Andrew. We talk about Andrew's choices. I mean, with the greatest respect to the king, he used Jimmy Savile as his marriage guidance counsel.

30:32He wrote letters, supportive letters to Bishop Paul, who was later found guilty of offences against children. So you can't always tell in these positions that you're in who you're dealing with. But, you know, he made pretty bad choices too. Look, end of the day, Epstein evil. There's no question about that. Andrew completely outraged. He's got it completely wrong and should be condemned for what happened. But you can't always tell at that particular time what that person has done. Maybe Andrew's just got absolutely traduced because he is a relatively unpleasant character that no one really has a good word to say.

31:09There wasn't a lot of people apart from the Queen that are going to defend him, and that's what's happened. He's been left exposed. I mean, he's described as ignorant and arrogant, which isn't the best combination, Robert. I've travelled with him on a few cases. I've interviewed him about his 60th birthday. Yeah, we did that in Mexico. While he went to Mexico, we were in his office, actually, one after the other. I remember that. Exactly. And so, yeah, he can do a job, but the trouble is he is quite arrogant, but he was fairly pleasant on those occasions. Yes, he's kind of like sort of pompous fool in a way, like tries to make jokes and pranks.

31:43Yeah, almost like trying to overcompensate for who he is in a way. I don't know, but I've had different type of experiences alongside him and I think that, yeah, it's easy now. In the world that we live in, everything's less shade of grey and more black and white, isn't it? But back to William, you make this point in the book as well that he can be really difficult about things like wearing kilts. Well, the king is very keen about this, you see, because you see, by wearing a kilt, there's a whole industry in Scotland which is actually, this is important. And so the king would do it consciously because he is the lord of the Isles.

32:18This is the whole industries in the Isles. And if you wear your kilt, there's a chance that people might buy a kilt and they might see you wearing it. Well, it's also quite good for the union, isn't it? It's great for many, many things, but mainly the Isles because it's a big industry. And so I think something like that he finds it quite frustrating. I mean, William went to St Andrew's University. I mean, he lived up in Scotland. He spent most of his summer holidays in Balmoral. And his knees can't be that bad. What's wrong with him? I don't know. I think he's getting sometimes... Maybe it's the lack of underwear.

32:49I don't know what it is, but maybe it's to do with just being sort of told. I don't know. So he's somebody that can't be told. Yeah, it could be that. I don't know. But I think the other thing I would say going forward, what's important is that you surround yourself some very good advisors and people from outside this royal bubble because it's quite important to have people that will tell you the truth. It's very important that they get the level of those aides to say, look, you know, we've got a big job to do here. This is a transition. They really must be in touch. And it can't be all corporate brand management.

33:25There's a much more important thing about the royals. It's more personal than that. But can we also just conclude by discussing the weird and wonderful trip that you and I took to Borneo to go and have a look at aragatangs. Robert and I went on this trip. When was that? It was basically... It was fun, though. It was fun. I didn't go up in the rainforest canopy. You did, yeah. Nearly died. Well, I didn't. No, I don't quite know what I was thinking because I was afraid of heights, but it was all good fun. And during that trip, we're on the job that we think we're doing, which is following William and Kate around as they photograph orangutan.

34:01In the middle of it, all hell breaks loose because some photographs, some topless photographs of Kate appear in the French media that have been taken by a long lens, very, very long, from great distance. They were at Lord Lindley's place in the south of France, got photographs there of Kate with her boobs out. We then having to report on that story as well as what they're doing in Borneo with very, very little... I don't think there was Wi-Fi. We were relying on our whatever, however many bars we did or didn't have on our mobile phones. We're stuck in the middle of nowhere. We have to get on a bus.

34:36We've got our news desk going, what's going on? Now, didn't you find that whole period instructive about them and the dynamic of their relationship and who he is and who she is by how they coped with that? We were watching, weren't we? We were like over... On that bridge, yeah. We were watching William literally losing it. He was, I think, incandescent with rage about his darling wife. But she was cool, I thought. She was cool, right? She was cool. She was saying to all... Do you remember as well? There were no female aides around. They were surrounded by blokes. She was like, can we just all just take a breath?

35:11She was cool. I thought she was great. Calmed down. I remember the PRs coming up to me and going, this is a disaster, this is a PR disaster. It was all vicarious, wasn't it? It was just ridiculous. They were getting completely bonkers. and I said, can I just be perfectly honest, whatever you do about claims against their invasion of privacy or you sue the magazine, whatever, can I just say woman to man and as one of the only other women in this whole pack that this is the best publicity she's ever got in her life. Who knew that this English Rose, who was meant to be very careful about everything, quite happily sunbathes half naked, it turned out to reflect on her well.

35:46I think the best thing about that was that they were briefing us and they made some comments. They were going to take this all the way. So I checked out that going all the way meant that we wanted to jail them. So I think the headline in the Sunday people was lock them up or something like that. Yeah, that's right. And I got into a bit of trouble. You did get into trouble. I also got into trouble because my editor phoned me and said, Jobson's saying lock them up. Why haven't we gone this far? And I said, well, Jobson's been given an inch and taken a mile. I took a bit there, yeah. Yeah, but hey.

36:14What it was was that they said that we'd pursue it right to the nth degree. and I said we do know what that means. Well they did get damages in the end. They got damages, yeah. But it was an interesting, what I'm saying is it was an interesting, I think he is the one that flies off the handle and she is the one that calms him down. There have been moments I think, but I think she was the king. But she's his best advisor is my point. Oh without a doubt and I think also the king knows that as well and therefore these lunches, the lunch with the king and Catherine when they were both talking about the cancer and everything, there was no William there.

36:48I think the king understands it. It's far easier to get access to the kids and everything when he's dealing with Catherine. Catherine is a good egg. And I think whilst we've got her, you know, it's God save the king. I think both Catherine and Camilla, actually, have both been, Queen Camilla have been great for the monarchy going forward because both the king and Prince William, they can be a little bit volatile. And I think both the one thing that Queen Camilla's got is a great, great sense of humour. and she can see the situations brewing and sort of puts fires out before they get there. Okay, so can we safely conclude that if the monarchy is going to get a grip, then as is ever the case in royal history, if you need a job done, get a woman to do it.

37:31Elizabeth I, Elizabeth II, the Queen Mother during the Second World War, now Kate, the Princess of Wales, proving to be the salvation of this great institution. At the end of the day, it always comes down to the women to rescue things. I would say that you should also look at King George VI and his role, very fine, a great man. But supported by his wife. Difficult man with a stammer who was supported by Boseline. Oh, no question, but he was a great leader as well and did lead with... I'm only making a point for the girls because we've now got a succession of kings coming. I agree with you to a degree, but we have got a succession of kings coming, so let's hope they've got their influence and their influence is strong.

38:10Let's give your book another plug. Robert Jobson, number one Sunday Times, best-selling author, The Windsor Legacy, a royal dynasty of secret, scandal and survival, out now. And as long as they keep the people's trust, they should survive, I would say. A good place to conclude. Robert Jobson, thank you very much for joining me on The Daily Tea. Pleasure.

38:44Thank you.