PMQs bloodbath as Kemi skewers Starmer, Reeves and Burnham

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1:54Starmer eviscerated the Chancellor on the verge of tears. Kemi Beidnok twisted the knife at a brutal PMQ, so bitter that the fighting carried on afterwards.

2:05Camilla: And we speak to former Defence Secretary Ben Wallace about the government's flawed defence investment plan and why Al Qans would make a better Prime Minister than Andy Burnham. Welcome to The Daily Tea with me, Tim Stanley. And me, Camilla Tominy.

2:30Camilla: Tim, did you watch the football last night? No, I didn't. You didn't miss that much. But I know what happened. Do you? What happened? We drew. Yes, we did. Do you know why we drew? No, were England playing at their usual standard? They were playing below their usual standard. That was acknowledged by all players, including man of the match, Jude Bellingham, who said, I don't really deserve this. you should give it to one of the Ghanaian defenders. Oh, wow. What happened was the Ghanaians adopted a 5-4-1 formation. Do you know what that means? Like 3-2-1, Ted Rogers. Exactly that. What's 5-4-1?

2:59Camilla: Basically, they were very, very, very defensive. Right. And it meant that we couldn't break through their significant back line and therefore we couldn't make any headway. We had quite a few shots on goal, but they mostly went to the goalkeeper who was very adept at saving everything that we shot at him. OK. So basically, we're still hopefully top of the group. We go on to play Panama. If we win that, then we will get through to the next round as the champions of our group. So it's probably no bad thing, but I just wanted to fill you in on that. No, thank you very much. I spent my evenings now watching old Adam Curtis documentaries and trying to stay cool.

3:30And as I was lying awake at about three in the morning, trying to get back to sleep by counting the mosquitoes, it occurred to me just how mad Britain's situation is. If you stop to really think about it, the Labour Party has sacked a Prime Minister because they did badly in some local elections. Yes. And they're going to replace him with a man who hasn't been in Parliament for 11 years. Yes. He is bringing in as his Chief of Staff, James Purnell, a man who hasn't been in Parliament for 16 years.

4:07Camilla: He's been in Labour circles, though. He's been in Labour circles. This is like a merry-go-round. And Labour are replacing their incumbent prime minister with this new, totally unqualified, almost completely inexperienced one in terms of recent politics. On the basis that the new guy is very nice. And has got, as Kemi pointed out, good eyelashes and a black T-shirt. And we'll get on to P &Q in just a minute. Very clever line by Kemi there. But just think, if Britain were a corporation and you knew that the board had sacked the boss because of one product that went wrong, and they were replacing him with someone who hadn't worked in that industry for over a decade, because they remember dimly that when they did work with him before, he was a nice bloke, there would be a shareholder revolt.

4:59Camilla: There would be. And actually, Ben Wallace, who's going to come on the podcast a little later, speaks to this. I interviewed him this morning while you were in the House of Commons. And he makes a point that I think everyone listening and watching will identify with, which is basically a what the F is going on here. Yes. He's sort of speaking for everyone, going, observing this, as you say, this madness, bringing down someone literally because he's mad for it. Yeah. And thinking it's all a bit obtuse. And I always like to say politics is just light entertainment. But of course, I mean that ironically.

5:31Camilla: Yeah, we don't want it to be. If it actually came to running the country, it's strange how the word experience no longer matters. And in fact, it's almost seen like a negative because it implies you're part of the system. You're part of the same broken group of people who've been running our country badly for decades. Well, there's an element of truth in that. But again, if you were getting on a plane, who would you want as your pilot? The man who had been doing it for the last couple of years? Or someone who hadn't flown a plane for 11 years? No. But you're going to give him a go because he's a lovely man.

6:08Camilla: It's a nice chap. But Starmer was given the job because he was a decent, very decent man. Yes. I mean, if politics was light entertainment, we could have had huge success with Bruce Forsyth being the Prime Minister after Margaret Thatcher, couldn't he? I mean, he served a very long and successful stint on television. But I actually think we're going to have a few weeks of romance with Andy Burnham because he's good on a TikTok. And you saw the look of love in the face of those MPs. How many of them, by the way, look like 1990s children's TV presenters? It's really freaky. Again, Wallace is going to make this point.

6:42Camilla: How many of them have actually ever met Andy Burnham? Right. How many have worked in the business? how many by that stage in their life have like had kids, had a divorce, who know what they're talking about. But you're going to have a few weeks of romance. But I actually think the romance itself is going to be played back later on as a reason why the appointment was a mistake. We're going to look back over these days of that photograph and Andy having a laugh in the chamber when he was signing in and all the sort of thing. And we're actually going to go, that was cute and funny at the time yes but i now realize it was evidence this man was atrociously underqualified to do this job funny you talked about it being a romance this is going to be like one of those episodes of blind date that his wife once starred in back in the 1980s that's so funny and it went horribly wrong it went horribly wrong so initially you see the meat the divider comes back cilla black's there look at what you've won and then you actually have to watch the date and it's excruciating.

7:43Camilla: And by the time they're back on the sofa, they viscerally hate each other. Are you saying that could be the relationship between Andy Burnham and the electorate? We've got some polling we'll get on to later. So he's a very nice man and that's why he deserves to be Prime Minister. I'll tell you what wasn't nice. Got a bit nasty, didn't it? PMQs. It did, yes. I quite enjoyed that because I felt... Oh, I loved every minute of it. Yes. This was one of the ones I've most enjoyed because when a Prime Minister resigns, he gets like 10 minutes in which to feel sorry for himself and his chin to wobble.

8:14And then either the country has to move on, which he's not letting us do, because he's going to try and drag this out as long as possible, or we go back to saying, yeah, but you were a bit crap, weren't you? And, you know, we've got over that bit. So when he walked into that chamber, I'm sure he didn't expect people to stand up with a valedictory address and say, I'd like to thank the right honourable prime minister for his service to this country. I don't think he expected that. He certainly didn't get it. And he wasn't going to get it from Kemi, because her central question is the one on everyone's lips.

8:41If, as Labour keeps saying, the country is moving in the right direction and it's made tough but correct choices, why do you have to go? Mr Speaker, they're cheering so loudly. If it's all going so fine, why is he resigning?

8:56Camilla: It didn't even work, Tim, where he tried to brag about Labour's result in Gorton and Denton, which, by the way, you lost to the Greens and indeed in Makerfield, saying that basically the Conservatives had got fewer votes than Count Binface, which isn't quite right, but that was the joke he was making, because she, of course, was able to come back with their result in Scotland. Mr Speaker, she references the by-election. I'm very pleased with our new Member of Parliament. Can I also say to her, in Gorton and Denton, the Tories got 1.9 % of the vote. Can I congratulate her? because in Makerfield they got 2.2 % of the vote.

9:40Just edging past Count Finnface. Mr Speaker, I think the Prime Minister forgot to mention that in Aberdeen South we got 50%. While MPs were also pretending to like Keir Starmer for 30 minutes, she also revelled in the fact that they had betrayed him. It's amazing. I've never seen this much excitement on the Labour benches. cheering so loudly while their 400 knives stuck in his back. Shame on them. Shame on them. They don't like it up them, but they know that what I'm saying is true.

10:12Camilla: And as I mentioned earlier, this was her assessment of Andy Burnham. Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister has made many mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be going. But he has also been let down. I'm only saying what his staff have been briefing. He has been let down by an energy secretary who is killing industry, let down by a chancellor who is killing jobs, let down by backbenchers who don't understand that government is about tough choices. He, you turned again and again and again to appease them and now they've abandoned him. And what for? A pair of eyelashes and a black T-shirt. There was an amusing sideswipe about betrayal by Ed Miliband and she pointed out this isn't the first time in his life he's betrayed someone close to him.

10:59The Energy Secretary is putting up bills and killing jobs. He was, yeah, he's not here, is he? He was a failed Labour leader, rejected by the electorate, brought back from the wilderness by this man, and when the going got tough, he jumped into bed with the mayor of Manchester. It's not the first time he's betrayed someone close to him, is it? Reference there to David for anyone under 40.

11:26Camilla: Yes, his brother, David Miliband, to be pointed out. But what interested me is the cat fight that ensued between Badenock and Philipson. Now, as you know, to me, Bridget, dear Bridge, she's my kind of, you know, Labour girl crush in the way that I just so admire the ice maiden cometh nature of the Education Secretary. And I was watching this exchange unfold. Let's just listen to it. To be fair, they're not all traitors and deserters. Some of his cabinet have been loyal. Loyal and incompetent. Hands up if you think the Education Secretary is doing a good job. Even she doesn't think she's doing a good job, Mr Speaker.

12:09Even she doesn't think she's doing a good job. Just, oh, someone did, someone did. Just for those who raised their hands, the two people who raised their hands, yesterday a poll found that 0 % of teachers think the Education Secretary is doing a good job. 0%. She taxed private schools to pay for more teachers. But the number of teachers has gone down. It turns out appointing a spiteful class warrior as Education Secretary was a disaster.

12:50Does the Prime Minister agree? does the Prime Minister agree that he has been let down by her incompetence?

13:01Camilla: And then, after this, they came to blows. Tim, what can you tell us? Because it fascinates me. I have spent the last hour thinking, if Bridget Philipson and Kemi Badenock were in a boxing ring, who would win? And I'm not sure I... I'm actually not sure I can call it. Yeah, it was closer to one of those fights on Dynasty. Yes. Where they end up rolling down the side of the hill into a river. That's right. Because they just weren't going to stop. Carrington versus Colby. That is precisely it. Literally tearing chunks. The way they were dressed as well, because both ladies dress for power. They do.

13:37Camilla: They shoulder padded up. There was Kemi there and her blue and Philipson there. Philipson always dresses at sort of right angles. She does. She's boxy. But she's good. Like a Volvo. Carry on, though. So, sorry, the speaker didn't quite like this, did he, Tim? He basically admonished the opposition leader for her use of language. I think that was because Kemi had used the word traitor. Yes. And that can be a loaded term. I think it's absolutely fine, by the way, in the context of your backbenchers are traitors and things like that. But I take his point. Well, I thought it was about her describing Bridget Philipson as a kind of spiteful class warrior.

14:14Spiteful class warrior as well. OK, fine. But that's parliamentary.

14:17Camilla: Well, I suppose so. But also, do you know that afterwards they had words with each other? They did indeed. And Bridget Philipson challenged Kemi about the language she had used. And Kemi said something like, I will never stop fighting you. You are destroying children's lives. Wow. It's heavy duty stuff, isn't it? By the way, she could have come out with a better line in response to Keir Starmer defending the education secretary, I think, by saying she should be in this job because she grew up poor. Yes. Which I'm not sure is the most convincing argument. It's a bit like Andy Burnham, isn't it?

14:48Camilla: He deserves to be prime minister because he's a nice man. She deserves to be Education Secretary because she grew up poor and then she socially mobilised her way all the way to, I believe, Oxford. I appreciate she came into her teenage years and then joined Labour under Blair, but she managed to get from Council Estate to Oxford College, largely under Tory rule. I mean, it should be pointed out that that is the case. Can we also talk about Rachel Reeves, who looked as if she was hearing her own eulogy in the chamber? We were debating in the press gallery whether or not we could use the phrase verge of tears.

15:23Kemi was making the point that she had not shown up in the street for the Prime Minister's resignation, but she did show up for that selfie with Andy Burnham as if she's desperately auditioning for her own job. The Prime Minister gave her the second most important job in Britain. She was the first female Chancellor. She lives next door to him, but wouldn't even come out to stand by him during his resignation speech. She was too busy getting ready for a selfie with the new leader. Does the Prime Minister feel let down by his Chancellor? She looked throughout the back and forth very uncomfortable.

16:02The Prime Minister did defend her, but as soon as the session was over, he stood up and marched out and walked right past her. Classic Keir, such a gentleman.

16:13Camilla: Well, he didn't notice her crying that time, did he? I know. Yvette Cooper gave her a pat on the back and the backbench MP Fleur Anderson gave her a kind of a mini hug. Right. The point is, is that other people with human souls. Yes. Acknowledged that there wasn't something quite right with her and reached out to her. By the way, Fleur Anderson asked a question which, in a nutshell, explained why Keir Starmer won't be prime minister in three weeks or so. She began her question by saying, this morning a tree fell on my house. Yes. And then went on to say something about climate change. Yeah, this is the MP for Putney.

16:50Camilla: I was thinking, where did this tree fall on her house? And then I realised it was one of London's leafier suburbs. Well, she described it as a mature street tree, not like those juvenile ones that hang around on the corners of streets, chewing gum and smoking cigarettes. Wearing hoodies. But she began her question by saying, this morning a tree fell on my house. and the Prime Minister responded with a sort of pre-written rote answer about this government is investing heavily in climate change. I mean, don't you begin by saying, I hope you're all right. Yeah, what's happened to your house? Have you lost the roof?

17:20And also, why are you here? Because if a tree fell on my house this morning, I would not be in work.

17:26Camilla: We will ensure that the HR process is followed to reunite you with your possessions and indeed parts of your kitchen which have now been destroyed. It's complete lack of flexibility is so frustrating. We should note, though, there was one moment of humanity. Politics has become battles without honour and humanity. There was one little bit of charm, which was Des Swain asked a very Des Swain question. His questions often sound like fortune cookies about the boy who ran away from his nanny and got eaten by a lion. And Keir Starmer said this in reply. Can I thank the Right Honourable Gentleman? He's always most generous.

18:13And, Mr Speaker, I'll never forget that just a few years ago I went on holiday in his constituency with my family and I was in the kitchen of the place we were renting when somebody leant through the open door and it was the Right Honourable Gentleman. With a bottle of champagne, saying, welcome to the New Forest. And then he took time to speak to my family, including my wife's elderly father, and to my children. I thank him for his generosity.

18:47Camilla: And I noted that after Starmer recalled this wonderful meeting of the minds during a holiday, that some Labour MP said, this is the way you do it, there's no spite here, like having a go at Kemi Badenot for being aggressive towards the Prime Minister. What is wrong with these people? Goodness me, they've got short memories. The Prime Minister has spent the last two years mansplaining at the despatch box to Kemi Bainot, basically trying to tear her to shreds for 14 years of Tory failure and all the rest of it. Oh, right, now, because the Prime Minister, in a rather self-indulgent and, frankly, gaslighting speech in Downing Street on Monday, almost sheds a tear over his beloved wife and children, we're all meant to feel great sympathy for this guy and say to the opposition leader, oh don't be too nasty because he's on his way out.

19:35Camilla: Even though he doesn't acknowledge why he's on his way out which is because he's been universally rubbish at almost everything he's turned his hand to in the last two years. I mean of course she should go for the jugular. What's the point of her? Ed Davie was not happy, leader of the Lib Dems. Oh what a wettie. Who stood up like one of those kids in the class to say Mr Starmer can I just say on behalf of everyone here thank you for your work this time. Good morning Mr Starmer, good morning everyone. Honestly, like, give the bloke an apple. And he looked very angrily at Kemi for having said what she said.

20:05But look, first of all, this is politics. The chamber is like a law court. You are there to prosecute an argument. You're not there to be nice to each other. He brought this on himself. But moreover, he's given himself three weeks. There are going to be three PMQs. If Kemi uses every PMQ to stand up and say, can I thank him for his service to this nation and his majesty, the king, then she'd be blowing three PMQs. No, this is a golden opportunity to analyse his record and ask how did we get here? And also, let's move on to the next guy. Let's ask questions about the next guy, who we know is already getting ready to run the country.

20:42Very presumptuous of him, but he is.

20:45Camilla: By the way, do you know why she's gone for Reeves and Philipson directly? Why she singled them out? And probably Miliband, it's quite shrewd. They're both definitely going to lose their jobs. Reeves is going to not be the future Chancellor because West Streeting is lining himself up for that and that's why he's lent his supporters to Burnham. Philipson isn't going to remain as Education Secretary because Burnham doesn't like the measures that she's brought in that basically allow the government to command and control education in this country for the very same reasons that Catherine Burblesing, Britain's strictest headmistress, who we're going to speak to tomorrow for the podcast at the ARC conference, doesn't like Philipson because she's taken away the autonomy of free and other schools to do education in their own way for their own pupils.

21:31Camilla: Burnham doesn't like her for that either because in Manchester he wanted T levels and he wanted a degree of flexibility so that he'd get children out of Manchester schools at 16 into local businesses. And she's thwarted all that because she's brought a degree of control freakery into the education system that he doesn't agree with. So my prediction is they both go and she's also gone for Miliband because is he going to remain as energy secretary? I'm not so sure. That's interesting, isn't it? And I think Burnham needs the backing of unions, including Sharon Graham, who has been so critical of Miliband in recent days.

22:03Camilla: He's got to keep that caucus of support on side. And if he thinks that Miliband is costing working people their jobs in the north, this is a man who, by the way, oh, on the bingo card, we can tick this one off. He's going to establish a number 10 in Manchester. I mean, you know, no, it's not a joke. That's what he's actually going to do. Because apparently that's what levelling up means. It means having offices in Manchester, having the BBC at Salford Keyes. Why does it have to be Manchester? What is Newcastle? Chop liver? I don't know. Why not Liverpool? By the way, we've had correspondence from people.

22:33Got a nice cathedral.

22:34Camilla: Well, we've had correspondence from people from those other northern areas saying, he's not king of the bloody north. No, I know. It's actually really rude. Like Yorkshire. Somebody from Yorkshire said to me, we don't do monarchy here. Remember the War of the Roses. Stop referring to him as a king. Somebody else, a telegraph reader, said, can we stop talking about this being a coronation? coronation applies to royalty only which I think is a fair point and as Erin is doing work experience with us this week has pointed out, in Game of Thrones the King of the North should never come south it goes horribly wrong just look at what happened to Jon Snow like the football, this is something I've never watched you haven't watched Game of Thrones no I haven't, isn't it just porn with swords that's quite great, it's like Rivals which is porn with high heels Shall we get on to the whole coronation sorry to use the phrase, or contest I think there are two debates raging The first is should Burnham just be allowed to walk into number 10 without being challenged The main challenger is Al Carnes He's told Newsnight I'm making my mind up about whether I challenge him, but I need to see what Burnham's policy platform is Considering Burnham doesn't even know what his policy platform is, why on earth is he going to tell Al Carnes in the next three weeks or anyone else Tim?

23:50All of these potential leadership bids, Darren Jones is the same, are just about auditioning for a job. I wouldn't take any of them seriously.

23:57Camilla: Although Darren Jones has taken his tiny hat out of the room. Yeah, he's taken his hat out. But actually, when you are trying to get a job in a future cabinet, you want to have a leadership campaign, but you want to keep it as brief as possible. The longer one runs, the less likely it is that person's going to get a job. And if Al Kahn continues doing this, if he's still saying this in one or two weeks' time, he's talking himself out of a job. Yeah, just make a decision sooner rather than later, Big Al. Second of all, voters want a general election. Can you believe it? So Brenda from Bristol, you sit this one out.

24:27Camilla: Apparently people are absolutely agitating for us to all go to the polls again. Please God. I think that there might be some truth in that. Well, you go say when asked, should there be a general election? 48 % said yes. 35 % said no. 17 % said don't know. I think this is basically about the country reflecting on the fact that Keir Starmer won a loveless landslide in the first place, reflecting on the fact that for all the reasons you've mentioned, including the fact that Burnham hasn't been in government for more than a decade and we don't know what on earth he believes in or what he stands for, that it is rather taking the Michael to have him installed instantly in number 10 with no mandate whatsoever.

25:11I mean, it's not really a constitutional thing on the part of the public. It's a partisan one, because if you break down the numbers, 72 % of Conservative voters want a general election, but only 26 % of Labour. That's weird. 88 % of reform.

25:25Camilla: That's weird, by the way, because the Tories don't really want a general election. They're not ready. I'm not sure. Reforms say they do. Are they ready? How's that vetting going? It's a custom in opposition to demand a general election every five minutes. I think it would be good for the right in this country because it would resolve who is the bigger party. Who's the top dog? Who is the top dog? Lowe, Farage, Bainock. Do we want, because if we have to wait another three years, that's three years of wasted time debating, is it reform or is it the Conservatives? If we went for an election now against Burnham, then we would see and resolve for once, is it the Tories or is it reform who are best placed to beat Burnham on the basis of who comes second?

26:08So my suspicion is Burnham would win such an election, actually, if only because the right is divided. But I think it would be really good for them for the future.

26:18Camilla: The right might mobilise against the horror show that they predict. They're not going to produce a coupon election. They can only do it through a coupon election. They can only do it if they sit down beforehand and agree, you run here and we'll run there. They're not going to do that. So let's resolve this once and for all. Let the public decide, do you prefer Nigel or Kemi? Because they're getting closer and closer in the polls. Yeah, I think the latest one actually put the Tories up on 20, Labour behind and reform ahead on 25. I tell you who's had a history of calling for a general election every five minutes.

26:48Camilla: It's Andy Burnham. The Tories. He is. General election now is hashtagging thanks to Andy Burnham in 2022. We had him repeatedly calling for general elections during that period. We need to start demanding a general election at the end of this Tory leadership election. They were all elected on a manifesto promise to level up the north and are all abandoning it. Just want to point out that most parts of the north that he refers to have had longstanding Labour MPs. So if the North hasn't been levelled up, what the hell have they all been doing for half a century? In 2022, he said that a new prime minister must honour the manifesto that they were elected on.

27:26And in 2026, said that major changes must be in a manifesto. So those arguments can now be applied to him too. Either he's got to stick with what it is he inherits, because that's the manifesto the public actually voted for in 2024 and not change it. or if he is going to make changes, he needs to put it in a manifesto and run it in an election.

27:48Camilla: Yes, and we'll all look forward to seeing that. What would the headline be? Can't be change. No, just be Andy for us. This is all they're running on is he's a nice man. Our Andy. It's a popularity contest. It's absurd. Well, on that note, popularity contest and indeed reflecting on your 3am thoughts in bed, Ben Wallace, the former Defence Spectre. I was not thinking about Ben Wallace at 3am in the morning in bed. I spoke to Ben Wallace earlier, the former Defense Secretary, who had some very interesting comments to make about defense spending, but also the ludicrous nature of the next leadership race.

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29:45Camilla: Ben Wallace, former British Army officer and Defence Secretary, thank you very much for joining me on The Daily Tea. Before we get into the nitty gritty of our hollowed out armed forces, can we just discuss this seeming row between Andy Burnham, the man who wants to be the next Prime Minister, and Keir Starmer, the man who has resigned as Prime Minister, in part following the resignations of John Healy, your successor, and indeed Al Kahn's over defence spending. Now, Andy Burnham seems to be saying that the Prime Minister should delay taking the defence investment plan to NATO on June the 7th, because he might want to increase defence spending.

30:26Camilla: And I suppose there could be two responses to that. First of all, OK, great, the next Prime Minister wants to spend more on defence. But alternatively, we can't delay this plan any longer. It's already taken two years. Let's be having it. Well, I think one of the problems is the plan itself is flawed. And that's no comfort to everyone who has waited over a year. But many people didn't pick up on Al Kahn's comments when he left and resigned from government. It wasn't just on money. He said in one of his comments that he then got to see the defence investment plan, which he hadn't been allowed to see.

31:09And that's, by the way, on John Healy's watch. That's not Keir Starmer's watch. And he didn't agree with it. He thought it was doing the wrong things for the future. And that's actually a really important point that, you know, the SDSR, which was, I'm sure they thought was some great political wheeze to make it hard for the opposition. And John Healy arrives and the Treasury encourages you to have another review because that delays their commitments for another 12 months. They got off the hook for the first 12 months. And I think the STSL wasn't as good as everyone billed it was. I didn't think it was.

31:45And that gave birth to the defence investment plan. And when it wasn't funded properly, it not only gave birth to the wrong plan, but it also gave birth to a plan that was not going to be funded anyhow in the first place. So we're now in this awful mess where neither one thing or the other is happening. I think probably if I was in Dan Jarvis's shoes I would be wanting to reset both and probably

32:13Camilla: that's what Andy Burnham is listening to at the same time the treasury is going to be in the ear of the future Andy Burnham PM and saying well you've got lots of new priorities we think let's hold off everything which is the usual treasury thing anyhow an outgoing prime minister can't commit your new government to lots of spending. So I think that's the route that's going on. It's not a comfort to anyone. All I would say is I'd rather we got it right than wrong and then we had a proper debate about what we're going to do with it. All right, so notwithstanding your complaints about the Strategic Defence Review, you obviously must, or maybe not obviously, but you support the top brass figure of£28 billion extra spending and you criticise, I would assume, you have done in The Telegraph, the fact that the Treasury is only allowed for£13.5 billion in spending.

33:09Camilla: So there's a shortfall. But do you agree with the initial£28 billion figure? Yes, that is correct. I know what happened is when this government got into Number 10 and defence, they believed their own hype, that there was buckets full of waste in the MOD, just ready to go. And they produce this SDSR. And I think we've already seen from the authors of the SDSR that they expected it to be funded significantly higher than it was. And on a trajectory of 3 % by 2030, neither of which have happened. So the figures, the gap between the aspiration, let's say, of the government and the funding is about$28 billion over four.

33:54I mean, factually, it's£13 billion over two. For the next two years, the armed forces need an extra£13 billion. So if you sort of scale that up over four, it's about£28 billion.

34:07Camilla: But how much confidence do you have in the new Defence Secretary, you've already mentioned, Dan Jarvis, actually pressuring the Prime Minister, the current one, the next one if he remains in post, to spend more? Obviously, he's a former military man like yourself. He's not going to want to look his own people in the face and say, I've completely undersold you. But on the other hand, he's taken that job. It's almost a hospital pass that he's accepted following John Healy's resignation, isn't it? I think it's a very difficult job for him to take. On the one hand, Britain needs a defence secretary, no matter what we think about a settlement.

34:45And if I was in the Labour government, it would be a difficult choice. And if John Healy's resigned, And there's probably none better than Dan Jarvis to take over at that slot. He was doing the job I used to do as a security minister. He understands the threat. He's a capable, experienced, and you need experience running the DMOD because it's full of treasury and all sorts of conflicts, and it's a big department. But I think he's got a difficult job because I think what dawned on John Healy and certainly Al Kahn's discovered in his new party that he effectively joined from the military, is that it's not in Labour's DNA to actually cut other priorities like benefits, NHS, education, anybody else, social funding, to make the funding that's needed.

35:39They weren't going to do it. And John Healy was the most loyal of loyal to Keir Starmer, loyal to the Labour Party, and his loyalty wasn't rewarded. And I don't think Dan Jarvis will get much more. He might get a little bit. But he's not going to get the 28 billion because fundamentally they're not prepared to make the Tufts choices.

35:59Camilla: OK, so if they're not going to do that, either under Keir Starmer while he remains in post or indeed perhaps under Andy Burnham, notwithstanding his own desire to increase defence spending, I think probably people who know Burnham will agree with your analysis that he's going to prioritise spending on the NHS and schools and other matters. Bearing all that in mind then, should Al-Khan stand because he's the only candidate that might spend more on defence genuinely, that will actually write the cheque and cash it? Yeah, I think Al-Khan should stand because he knows what needs to happen in defence.

36:39He knows the threat we live under. He was one of my best commanders when I was the Secretary of State and it was actually a loss to the military that he left simply because there aren't many people with his knowledge and capability in the system. He should also, because I think all of us want to know what Andy Burnham stands for. And if there is a competition, Andy Burnham, who no doubt will win, will have to set out his manifesto. I mean, I don't know about you, and I was a veteran of five prime ministers as my party pushed people off the plank every few minutes and made all sorts of, you know, let's just junk one prime minister for another one.

37:21I mean, first of all, I don't think that works. And secondly, you know, if I look at this situation, I'm not quite sure why the Labour Party got rid of Keir Starmer. I mean, government isn't a celebrity big brother where you vote another person in because, you know, I mean, because anti-Bernamism is different. I don't see his policies being yet different than Keir Starmer's. So what were they actually, were they just getting rid of him because they think, you know, let's get someone who looks better or whatever, and that will somehow make the difference. I mean, most of those Labour MPs are all turned out on the Friday to greet him or Monday, you know, grinning in Westminster Hall.

38:01Most of them had never met him. It's just sort of Andy, our mate. I knew Andy, him and I used to share a train together often on 2005 to 2006. who were North West MPs and knew him quite well. I would often shadow him on committees. And, you know, his brother runs a school in my constituency. But all these sort of adorning, you know, hell the messiah, Westminster, had never met him. No. I don't know what he stands for. All right.

38:30Camilla: Well, is he prime ministerial material? Could be. I mean, I think this is the problem. I mean, he certainly was a very good front of house for Manchester. You know, and I think we shouldn't forget that metro mayors don't really have much power. And I mean, most of them are PR people for their cities at the moment. I mean, if they're lucky, they get to employ the chief of police. They get to maybe employ the head of their transport authority. But they don't make choices. They're not, you know, to lead is to choose. They don't have to make hefty choices. You know, if Andy Burnham was running all of social services in Manchester, all the health service, all the education, all the roads, all, you know, all these things, and I had to balance a budget or make a budget, that would be a test.

39:26we'll see if he can choose and you know one of the failures of Keir Starmer was I'm afraid when it came to leading he couldn't choose defense over belt benefits and welfare and by not choosing we ended up in the mess so to leaders to choose I think he probably will I think Andy knows how to do some things he is a capable individual whether I don't think he'll choose the things I choose or the readers of the Daily Telegraph would choose. Well, I mean, this is interesting.

39:59Camilla: Your insight into these two candidates is fascinating because you know Burnham well. You also know Al Karnes well. I mean, who would be the better prime minister? Well, I would say Al Karnes, but that's because he was an outstanding officer of his generation in defence. But to be honest, I don't know what Al Khan would be like in the NHS. He could be a total disaster, right? I mean, so this is why I think it's important to have a competition. Can we please understand and know what any of their economic policies are, their health policies? I mean, none of us know. I mean, we are literally playing the guessing game.

40:40I thought early on, all the focus on what Andy Burnham was wearing and his running kit was probably because no one had anything else to talk about because we didn't know what he stood for. So let's talk about what shorts he was wearing running around because...

40:52Camilla: Yes. We are owed an explanation if we're going to change a prime minister. And I hope that for that very sake causes a competition. What's your feeling? Has he got the guts? Has he got the courage? Because, of course, he'd be the underdog. He came into the Daily Two studio and he was quite impressive and the readers liked him. I mean, funny enough, Telegraph readers prefer him overwhelmingly to any of the other candidates. So I think he was on 31 % of the vote versus 13 % in support of Burnham, because there's a perception that Karns is basically a Tory in red clothing. But I don't know whether that's true or not.

41:26I mean, I think the real question is, can Al get 81 votes? And when there's a juggernaut and a momentum of Andy Burnham, power becomes seductive to many backbench MPs who will think they'll work out what side, their bread is buttered and they won't risk being on the wrong side of that. And I think what we can definitely say is this cohort of Labour MPs has the thinnest skin of them all. I mean, I was in the House when Tony Blair was the prime minister. There were some considerable quality Labour MPs and Labour front bench individuals, capable individuals. MPs knew in those days the rough and tumble politics.

42:13They knew the cycle of politics. But I mean, I'm afraid to say a lot of these Labour backbenches are so thin-skinned. They've just got rid of a prime minister on, I think, whether he looks good. I mean, I can't see more than that. I mean, they're one email and they're run away and they can't do anything about it. So I think that's where we're at. I doubt he'll get 81. I don't think West Street ain't got 81.

42:39Camilla: No, no. He said he had, but then it probably has transpired that he hasn't. Let's just bring the conversation full circle back to defence spending. You wrote this piece for us a mere two weeks ago, headlined, Our leadership is a busted flush and friends and allies alike sneer at our lectures to foreign powers. We have become the hyacinth bouquet of NATO, keeping up appearances. Just explain that to finish, Ben Wallace. Well, we hear the word hollering out. I used it to apply to both Labour, Coalition, Tory governments in the past, where we hollowed out defence because we could hide behind a veil of secrecy.

43:21Like, you don't get to know the ammo stocks, you don't get to know the readiness, because that's all secret. But, you know, as long as we had Troop McCullough and the Red Arrows, and, you know, we told ourselves we were leading in NATO. And, you know, when I was in, we were the second highest spender in NATO, so we did have some credibility in that space. but we've continued to effectively hollowed out. Now, smaller nations in Europe or other nations with hollowed out, they don't usually go around trying to tell everyone else what to do. The problem is we became hollowed out and started telling people what to do because the number 10s were not prepared to put their money where their mouth is.

44:01You know, Keir Starmer convenes the coalition of the willing,

44:04Camilla: if you remember, for Ukraine, and then probably gave them no money. Then there was going to be the coalition of on the Straits of Hormuz, we were going to lead that. But he wasn't prepared to say to Rachel Reeves, you better give them more day to day running so we can have HMS Dragon and all these other ships available. And so we just look sort of I mean, it doesn't fool everyone. I mean, NATO has an annual report at confidential or secret level where it peer groups the other countries promises and contributions. and I remember it wasn't voluntarily given to me by my officials but I discovered its existence when I was a Secretary of State and I looked at it and we basically got a D minus grade or a D and I remember thinking well it won't just be us can I read the German and the French one?

44:53Well the French had like a grade B right if there was a grading system and we were constantly like the emperor's new clothes and everybody knew it in NATO the Russians know it and the Americans definitely did know it. And I would much rather we have an honest discussion with the public, with the Prime Minister, where the Prime Minister decides to cut his or her cloth accordingly. And if that means they don't posture around the world and the G7 telling everyone how it be, then I will regret that. I think that's the wrong thing. But then at least they will fund what they want. Instead, we get ambition, we get posing, and then we don't get it followed through because the prime ministers of today and the past have rarely said to the Chancellor, now put meat on the bones of what I've said by funding it.

45:42And so we get this horrible cycle, this hollering out and it fools no one anymore, at least for our allies. And I think that's not a place I want to be in.

45:53Camilla: But then finally, the prime minister, Keir Starmer, thinks that he can spend the next three months securing his legacy as some kind of crusading international statesman. I mean, is it credible that he'll be remembered for being this towering global figure? I don't think so. I don't think he really was. You know, ultimately, when you sit around those G7s, and I've been there, or the NATOs, or even I think I did the last European Commission defence event in Finland, I think it was. You know, what matters is the forces at your disposal if you're in defence, the readiness you have, your ability to contribute to operations, sometimes the ability to organise and coordinate them, and your economic might.

46:41Has our economic might increased or decreased under Keir Starmer? Well, it's decreased. Unemployment growing at home, debt growing. So we don't really have the economic might around the table. Highest debt costs in the G7. and I think we pay more than anyone else in interest. Militarily, we've gone from second in NATO to 12th, and I think we're on our way to 21st in our NATO. So he could do the right thing. I don't think the Chancellor would listen to him now if he said, right, I've had enough, we're going to do the 28 billion and I'm going to arrive in NATO putting my money where my mouth is.

47:18And if you want to know that the clue of the return to hollowing out, which I think is what happened, is you have heard him say in his resignation and in John Healy's resignation letter, we spend 2.6 % of GDP on defence. No, we don't. We spend actually, I think this year, 2.03 % of GDP on defence on the MOD and 2.13 % of GDP in the MOD next year. All the extra 4.3 % or 0.4%, that's everybody else's budgets. That's tucking under. That's town centre improvements and barrow and furnace has been included in that number. right? That's VAT receipts. That's the fakeness that fools nothing and it deeply lets down the men and women of the armed forces.

48:15Camilla: Ben Wallace, former Defence Secretary, former soldier, thank you for joining me on The Daily Key. We'll be back at 5pm. We will have spent the day at the ARC conference, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, where we will speak to Catherine Burblesing, Alistair Heath, the editor of the Sunday Telegraph, and others.

48:57Hey, everybody. It's Farnoosh Tarabi, host of the So Money Podcast. This episode is sponsored by Smart Travel, a new podcast from NerdWallet. You know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right cards, and somehow ends up in first class for the price of coach? Smart Travel is like that friend, but in podcast form. They cover things like which travel cards earn their keep and which are just heavy, shiny metal, and the smartest ways to book flights without playing Guess the Cheapest Day. Travel smarter and spend less with help from NerdWallet. Follow Smart Travel wherever you get your podcasts.

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