PMQs chaos as Reform storms out over ‘arrogant’ Starmer

0:02The Telegraph.

0:30could save over$1 ,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash ACAST today. Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? The fact is a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never really wanted in the first place. But we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, Isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck.

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1:51Sweeney's missing mobile phone.

1:53Camilla: Welcome to The Daily D with me, Camilla Tominey. And me, Tim Stanley.

2:08Camilla, that was one of the most dramatic PMQs I've attended.

2:11Camilla: I'm dropping my pen in absolute horror at what you're saying. Wow. Why? I woke up just as Nigel Farage stormed out. You're so unfair to the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition. You say that they bored you to tears with his patronising tone and her banging on about energy. Well, it was classic everyone. Starmer was at his most Starmer-ish, Kemi at her most Kemi-ish, but the most exciting moment was when Nigel Farage asked this question. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Smash the gangs! That is what the Prime Minister promised us. Trust me, I will stop the boats from coming. But 70 ,000 later and 1 ,000 in the last week and too many young men that pose a threat to national security.

2:56Is it not time to admit Smash the Gangs has been a total abject failure, along, frankly, with most of his other policies? But isn't it now time, he told us, as summer approaches, what is plan B? And then Keir Starmer gave an answer which wasn't directly related to that question, but was rather more about reforms, local government tax rises. Mr Speaker, this is from the man in the party that voted against giving law enforcement counter-terrorism style powers to tackle that. So he wants the grievance, he doesn't want it sorted. He has absolutely no judgment. He again said, let's join the war, let's all go to war.

3:37I want to make it perfectly clear he wants the war. A week later, screeching U-turn, we don't want to go to war. And he says, trust his judgment. Mr Speaker, it's hard to take anything he says seriously. He promised lower tax and now reform councils a hiking council tax by 9%. In Worcestershire, this is what he said about Worcestershire. He said, we took control of a virtually bankrupt council. I wish we hadn't bothered. He asks for people's votes and then he abandons them. Reform don't want to solve problems, they only want to exploit them. I am thankful for the opportunity to change this country for the better.

4:17He says he wished he hadn't bothered winning councils because they're an absolute disgrace. One camera did pick up Nigel Farage listening to the Prime Minister's answer and mouthing the phrase, that is absolutely pointless.

4:30Camilla: Yes. With a little chuckle at the end, maybe. Which is quite correct, and is what people complained about last week as well, that Keir Starmer has just ceased answering questions and is now just briefed to talk about the opposition parties instead. But what I think the cameras didn't catch, but I could see there is some advantage physically to being there, is that when the next question was being asked, Nigel Farage stood up at the back and marched out. And one by one, reform MPs took his lead and followed him. The last one to go was Rob Jenrick. And a couple of Reform MPs had to walk past him in order to get out.

5:09Camilla: Ah, you see, he hasn't fully converted yet. Which has led to some speculation that Jenrick actually didn't want to go or wasn't minded to go. So he was the last one left. But then, obviously realising he doesn't want to be the last dwarf sitting. No, of course not. He stood up and not only left, but angrily waved at the Labour benches, angrily waved. Wow. This is like they leave in the order of which they have been drinking reformed turquoise Kool-Aid. Yes. So Lee Anders is up there. Yes. He's going in right behind Farage. We're leaving. And then others are like, should I stay or should I go now?

5:48Now, they left and we thought they would immediately grab a journalist and explain what they had done and why. The fact that I didn't, I take from that to mean it's not planned.

5:57Camilla: Were you all chasing them out at this point? No, no, but there were some journalists who were obviously going to do that as soon as it ended. But one wonders if they would have had a little row about it afterwards. Was that the best thing to do? Was that the best look? Especially given that the question that they walked out in the middle of was over the future of the crucible. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Prime Minister for the£35 million of funding announced this week to transform Crucible Theatre and keep the world... And keep the world...

6:36The snooker. The snooker hall, right?

6:39Camilla: Snooker loopy nuts are we. And if one thing... We're going snooker loopy, sorry. If one thing matters to reform voters, it's snooker. I know, and hasn't Ronnie O'Sullivan just broken the record for the highest break ever? Right. I think we're in a golden age of snooker right now, Tim. Right. That's all I'm going to tell you. Well, someone on the Labour benches whispered a joke for Keir Starmer to say. I see Reform of Works walked out. They obviously realise they're absolutely snookered. By the way, I was watching on the telly or on my computer screen at my desk and you couldn't really see the kerfuffle.

7:15Camilla: You could only hear the reaction to the kerfuffle. Because obviously it was a gift for those around reform, which include the Gaza independents, the Lib Dems, the Scottish independents or whoever. It was all kind of cries of shame, shame. Because whenever Farage stands up, people are like, oh, you're here, are you? You're gracing us with your presence. Why aren't you in Clacton or indeed at Mar-a-Lago? So the one time he shows up, he walks out. That's not fair. Farage has been attending more and more of these. And also he has been getting more and more questions. Well, he had a question last week and a question this week.

7:45It looks as though the Speaker is minded to give him the opportunity to speak, which I think is fair given the size now of the Parliamentary Party and also its consistent poll lead. It's silly that he doesn't get to say something. And given that the Prime Minister so frequently refers to the Reform Party and its policies, again, it's only fair that you let him speak. Remember, Ed Davey, who is on like an asterisk in the polls right now, gets two questions. So that's hardly fair, is it? And there's also an understanding that the SNP generally gets to have a go too if their leader is there. Afterwards, two MPs, one Lib Dem, who bangs on all the time about Eastbourne Leisure Centre, and one Labour, Kat Smith, stood up and said, was this breaking some sort of rule?

8:27Because there is a custom, and remember Parliament's really governed more by custom than hard and fast rules, but there is a custom in Parliament that if you have asked a question, you are required to stay for a certain length of time afterwards in order to hear the answers that refer to it. The Speaker swatted that down. But Sir Edward Lee also made the point of order, which... He's the father of the House, right? He's the father of the House, which is now being made all the time, which is, Erskine May does lay out that the Prime Minister, or any minister, is supposed to answer the questions put to them.

8:56Camilla: Yes, answer the bleeding question. Well, let's talk to Richard Tice about this, who joins us on the Daily Tea now, Tim. What are you all doing? You're storming out of Parliament. It's all very dramatic. What did you do that for? Well, it was dramatic because the prime minister for the second week running has just blatantly refused to ask a very serious question from Nigel Farage. This week it was about the boats, the utter failure of the prime minister's smash the gangs policy, which has basically encouraged the gangs. And in response, the prime minister banged on about the Iranian war and some of our brilliantly run councils.

9:36Well, there's no dinghies and illegal migrants rocking up in the middle of the country in Staffordshire. It was outrageous. And it brings the whole of the Commons and this whole session of Prime Minister's questions into disrepute if he just continually refuses to answer any questions and throw it back and ask questions of the person asking it. What about the objection that whenever you thought of the Prime Minister's answer, Nigel Farage had asked a question, and it is customary that you will sit and listen to the questions that follow. We did listen to the comment from the Prime Minister, and when he finished it, we were so angry, we said, we're done with it, enough's enough.

10:17We have to make a statement, and the fact that the press have picked up on it, and it is now going viral, I think makes the point, and I think the Speaker, and frankly, everybody, will be asking searching questions. I mean, this is the main issue that is upsetting tens of millions of British citizens. And the prime minister just sort of arrogantly dismissed it and waved it off without so much as a recognition of the importance of the issue. But obviously some people will say, OK, but that means you walked out on listening to answers about other very important questions, too. I mean, for instance, you walked out in the middle of a question about rescuing the crucible, the snooker hall, which is very important to a lot of people.

10:58And some voters may say, I feel that was a bit rude not to sit around and listen to the other MPs' questions. What's rude is for the Prime Minister to ignore the concerns of tens of millions of British citizens around the invasion by 70 ,000 illegal migrants since the general election. He promised to stop the boats by smashing the gangs. He's failed and he's got no plan B, no plan C, no idea how to resolve possibly one of the main concerns of tens of millions of people up and down the United Kingdom. And it's just unacceptable. And we have to make a serious point about this. And that's what we did.

11:41Was the walkout planned? No, it was a response to the behaviour of the Prime Minister, and it shows that we are the only party that is deadly serious about this crisis, this emergency, this invasion, by people, regrettably some of whom do not wish us well at all, all of whom are costing every single person in this country a great deal of money. Guess what? We're getting poorer. Everyone's feeling more impoverished.

12:11Camilla: Was Robert Jenrick a bit late to the protest party, Mr Tice? He seemed a little more reluctant than you to walk out. Maybe he's just still holding on to that continuity conservatism. He was being most courteous, letting us leave first, that was all. Oh, was he? Well, maybe it's just that former Tories are a little more polite than present reform MPs, perhaps. We all try to be polite in our own special way. Indeed so. I suggest that perhaps he hadn't drunk quite so much turquoise Kool-Aid. Let's just leave that there. Finally, are you going to be rather screwed over by this proposal by the Labour government to ban foreign donations to political parties?

12:50Camilla: You take quite a lot of money from foreign donors, don't you? We take money legally from people who are on the electoral roll, from companies that are allowed to donate. And sure, the Labour Party is jealous of our success in fundraising. It is quite amusing, though, that it may well affect one of their own Labour Party big donors, a South African, who's given the Labour Party many, many millions of pounds. So later we can see. But of course, Labour are so terrified, so petrified of the success of reform that they are now basically trying to change the rules. It won't be the last time of that, we can be sure.

13:31Camilla: Richard Tice, Deputy Leader of Reform UK, thank you very much indeed for joining us on The Daily Tea. Thank you. Did Kemi do a good job, Tim? Because it was a quite repetitive PMQs. She had gone in on energy last time. Okay, she pivoted towards North Sea drilling, rather than talking about whether the fuel duty freeze would be unfrozen in September. And I appreciate her going after what are consumerist issues, right? People are worried about rising energy costs, inflation, their mortgage bills going up. and she was trying to expose the folly of them doubling down on nit zero. She later tweeted something basically saying the Prime Minister is being controlled by Ed Miliband.

14:14Camilla: I'm going to let the Prime Minister in on a secret. He's the Prime Minister. He can change the legislation. Hiding behind the Energy Secretary is pathetic. Which I do agree with that analysis. I wrote a column on it at the weekend. I think in the background, who is pulling the strings? It's Miliband. and who is now largely being cited as the most credible successor to Keir Starmer. Again, it's the Energy Secretary, which is unbelievable because he was tried and tested and failed back in 2015. But Labour backbencher Henry Tufnell, who was referred to by Kemi Badenock in her questions, has objected to the brakes being placed upon oil and gas exploration.

14:53And you begin to hear more of that from Labour MPs. And it's striking that the government, although it will not grant new licences, and they had this ridiculous back and forth over whether that was the responsibility of the Prime Minister or the Secretary of State. Hello, if you want the Secretary of State for energy to do it, the Prime Minister tells them to do it and they will then do it. But Starmer operates under this illusion that because that's not the technical process, he doesn't...

15:16Camilla: Well, Badenock nailed him on that. I thought her line about him as ever being so loyally about everything, it really stuck. We can have renewables and oil and gas. He says it's a matter for the Secretary of State. He says it's a matter for the Secretary of State. I thought he was the Prime Minister and he loves to hide behind legal process every single time. Nonetheless, despite what Kemi's saying, it is interesting how the government insists that oil and gas are flowing and that they are part of the future mix. That does represent a bit of a change from where they were before. She makes a good point.

15:52Camilla: They're flowing from Norway. Kemi's problem is that energy is not a very sexy issue. How much I pay in my bills is sexy. Whether or not there's drilling in the North Sea isn't sexy. Now, the two are related. But of course, even if you were to start the drilling, it takes so long. And whatever we produce would not go directly to lower the British price. It would flow into the grid. And in theory, it would contribute to an overall lowering of the price. But my point is, is what she's arguing for, for some of the public will be a tad abstract. I don't disagree with her. I think it's become a little bit more mainstream now.

16:27Camilla: You simply make the argument, we are importing 50 % of our oil and gas from Norway who are drilling it in the same area that we could. They're granting more licences. We're not. We could just be more self-sufficient and it would cost us less. And you can cogently make that argument, despite some of the granularity involved in the explanation, simply by saying, And can I remind you, ladies and gentlemen, we've got the highest energy costs in Europe. Yeah. And I think that's fine. Yeah. The other problem for Kemi, of course, is can she credibly land this stuff? The Tories legislated for net zero in 2019.

17:04Camilla: The Tories had a moratorium on fracking. Yes. The Tories came out with the North Sea oil and gas windfall tax. Yes. The Tories are now trying to put out their own bonfires. We're going to take green levies off bills. You put on this, quotes, green crap in the first place. The Tories let in millions of people. The Tories raised your taxes. The Tories did everything they criticised Labour for now doing. I know, but they're under new leadership. Yeah, I know, but they do that every generation. I know, but... Every single generation, they say. I do think she's... We've reviewed what we did in office.

17:36We've completely changed our mind and we'll never do that again. And then they do it.

17:39Camilla: I know, but unlike some of her predecessors, I do think that she is thoroughly conservative and committed to conservatism in her approach, which actually isn't something you could have said about some people that have previously led the Tories. There was another moment of comedy gold, and it was this question from Mr Whimsey, Ed Davey. As a former Secretary of State for Energy who granted licences for oil and gas exploration, can I make a judgement on this argument? The Prime Minister is actually right, and the lead option is wrong.

18:14Camilla: Oh, please. So once again, Ed Davey is finding it difficult to extract his head from the Prime Minister's backside. If I were a Tory MP. As he delivers his opposition questions. That pretentious way when she said, may I offer my judgment in the dispute we've just had. Just say no. If I was a Tory MP, I'd have said, can I offer my judgment on the conversation you've just had? You two should get a room. Get a room. Can I be your coalition partner? And the incredible thing is. Can I be your coalition partner? In his second question, Ed Davey, on a separate issue, repeated that the prime minister was right.

18:48He is using PMQs to align his party with Labour for future coalition talks.

18:54Camilla: I know, it's so opportunistic. It is not clear what the difference in policy is now, what voting Lib Dem, why that's different. They are snookering themselves, to coin a phrase, because, for instance, they've decided to go madly pro-nuclear weapons. Yes. At a time when all the votes are being driven towards the Greens, they've decided to move to the right of the Greens on some issues but move to the left of the Tories and others. If Labour sink and the Greens keep going, the next thing we'll be seeing is Ed Davey saying, well, when Polanski said he could enlarge that woman's breasts, maybe he had a point.

19:30Camilla: I mean, this guy will just blow in whatever direction. May I say, Mr Speaker, I have seen that lady's breasts And the leader of the Green Party is right. And they are slightly bigger as far as I'm concerned. Coming up next, we try to solve the mystery of Morgan McSweeney's missing mobile phone.

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20:32But we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place. And maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for strawberry.me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be. either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one. Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan, and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to strawberry.me slash career and get 50 % off your first coaching session.

21:10That's strawberry.me slash career.

21:23Camilla: I think we need to discuss a mystery and it's a mystery that's almost Agatha Christie-like I think it's worthy of Columbo It could be, just one last thing But rather than Jack Cassidy pushing Ava Gardner off a train and thinking he got away with it what we want to know here is what did Morgan McSweeney say to Peter Mandelson? Yes The heart of this story is we're trying to figure out why Peter Mandelson was appointed as ambassador, what kind of scrutiny he faced, and what was then told to the Prime Minister about Peter Mandelson's character before he signed off on the appointment. And the linchpin to all of this is Morgan McSweeney, because it was Morgan McSweeney plus one other who seemed to have done the background checking and the interviewing of Peter Mandelson.

22:05Camilla: And McSweeney, of course, was the former chief of staff to the Prime Minister. Right. But ended up being, well, it depends, fell on his sword, was thrown under a bus. Yes. Whatever analogy you want, Tim. But he's no more. He is no longer in Downing Street. And seemingly he's been having some communications problems. Yes. Because this phone was, quotes, stolen. So we want to see all the relevant files to the Mandelson appointment. Yes, we do. We've seen some files. Right. And that includes messages. And nowadays, everyone in politics works off their phone. It's become their mobile office. So obviously we want to see what was on Morgan McSweeney's professional phone.

22:45But that phone, it now seems, was stolen and was stolen at a very specific moment in this narrative.

22:53Camilla: Now, we need to go back to the beginning and just analyse what Steve Reid, who is the Communities and Housing Secretary, said about this missing phone initially, because it's important to him. Like good detectives, we need to go back over the timeline and assess the truth from the lie from the confusion. So Steve Reid goes on the media round on Sunday and he said that McSweeney had lost his phone maybe even over a year before the whole Mandelson situation arose. Which doesn't make sense, by the way. Doesn't make sense, but then a lot of what Mr Reid says doesn't make too much sense. Because the phone would have been replaced, right?

23:34Of course it would.

23:34Camilla: It's a government phone. Right. But he was basically saying, nothing to see here, because already there was quite a lot of kind of conspiracy theorisation going on on X and other social media channels about this missing mobile. So journalists did some digging into precisely when the phone was stolen. And in the course of that, an article written in The Spectator by Tim Shipman last month has resurfaced and is an account of what was happening in government at the time that all this was going on. Mandelson was sacked on September the 11th of last year. Shipman's piece says, quote, the Commons rose for the conference recess, not returning until October the 13th.

24:15Over that period, a team of advisors and officials from the Cabinet Office, the Labour Whip's Office, and the Office of the Leader of the House, prepared in case the Tories used their first opposition day after the recess to submit a humble address motion seeking disclosure of all the email and WhatsApp exchanges covering Mandelson's appointment and his resignation. Those involved told colleagues, if the Tories pass a humble address motion, Morgan is effed. So in other words, between September 11th and October 13th, Number 10 was putting in place a strategy for how to react if the Tory party demanded, through a humble address, to see the messages between Morgan McSweeney and Peter Mandelson.

24:58OK, so just a week later, seven days later, on October the 20th,

25:05Camilla: Morgan McSweeney reports his phone has been stolen and all the messages apparently lost. And not, as Mr Reid had suggested, not a year before, this happened last October. Yes, this is one of those moments in Colombo where Robert Culp said he smoked cigars and then Colombo finds out he doesn't smoke cigars. And that's when he first became suspicious. That's right. He's there in his dirty Mac, picking through the evidence. How did you know? How did you? Hey! It was the lie about the phone. So it now gets even madder because Steve Swinford, now of the Times, formerly of this parish, is reporting today that police did not investigate the theft of Morgan McSweeney's phone because they took down the wrong address and were, quote, too busy to speak to him, despite the sensitivity of the messages and the contacts.

26:00Camilla: Let's just remind each other, and indeed those listening and watching, this is the phone belonging to the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff. Yes. I would suggest that the WhatsApps and other messages are probably highly sensitive and may even involve issues around national security. If that's been stolen by some random criminal, They could very easily, presumably, get into it and find contact details for very important people, messages with very important information. That's a very big deal. That's the phone equivalent of stealing the Venus de Milo. That is. And also, don't forget, there have been previous controversies where people...

26:36Camilla: Do you remember when Oliver Letwin put a load of sensitive documents? Didn't he put them in a bin or something? Somebody got them out and then somebody else left some stuff on a train. Yes. You know, we've had massive investigations launched because somebody somewhere dropped a post-it note. Yes. We've got apparently a balaclava-wearing thief having stolen the phone of the chief of staff, of the prime minister of the United Kingdom. Who many backbenchers believed at the time was the most powerful man in the United Kingdom. So McSweeney claims that his phone was taken by a man, as I say, with a face covering, on an electric bike as he returned home from a restaurant in central London.

27:11Camilla: The man apparently grabbed it out of his hand as McSweeney was responding to text messages and cycled off. McSweeney gave chase but was unable to keep up. He dialed 999 and reported details of the theft. However, as you said, officers took down the wrong address, assuming the offence happened in a road with a similar name in East London rather than Westminster. He was given a crime reference number and the case was closed after they failed to identify the suspect. Nothing unusual there. officers did not speak to McSweeney because they said they were, quote, too busy. Now, this is where great telegraph reporting comes in, Tim.

27:47Camilla: We've got a story now going great guns on the website. We will link it to the show notes, saying that, curiously, McSweeney did not identify himself as Sakhir Starmer's chief of staff during the 999 call. In an unusual move, Scotland Yard has released the call log from the night The former Number 10 aide reported the theft. It reveals that he gave officers his name, but not his job title, when he reported the mugging on October 20th. He told the operator the stolen handset was a government-issued device, but not that it contained top-level government material and contacts. He also did not say that he worked at Number 10.

28:28Camilla: As a result, the officers who dealt with the case probably didn't realise its significance. That gives a different perspective on PC Plod's rather lacklustre response. First story is cops were lazy, too busy, whatever, got the wrong street. Second story is they weren't told how important this was. Sources say that the then chief of staff then did what you're supposed to do and contacted Number 10 Security and got the phone remotely wiped, which raises the issue of, so does that mean messages to Mandelson were lost? Well, they would still be on Mandelson's phone, presumably. Yes. Graham Pack, a regular listener and watcher of this podcast, has pointed out, well, you've always got the other side of the conversation.

29:10Camilla: Yes. And presumably Mandelson's phones now are in police custody, so to speak, because the investigation into him for misconduct in public office is ongoing. Well, one senior official has insisted that the cabinet office is in possession of both WhatsApps and emails between the pair. It doesn't help the government's case when what everyone is demanding is complete transparency and openness. that a critical phone of a very important player happens to get stolen at precisely the moment at which people are demanding to see its contents. Yes. I mean, often it's cock up over conspiracy. Do you remember when Rebecca Vardy...

29:46Camilla: Do you know who Rebecca Vardy is? I do. Blankly? Yes. No. OK. So she's a wag. Right. And you know who Killeen Rooney is, right? I've seen these names in the top banner of the Daily Express, but I don't actually know who they are. Fair enough. OK, so Rebecca Vardy is married to Jamie Vardy, who used to be a striker for Leicester. Well done. And Colleen Rooney is married to Wayne Rooney, who's one of our most prolific goal scorers for England. Good for her. They had a very big row because Colleen Rooney suspected that Rebecca Vardy was leaking information about her to the tabloids. And she did this thing that came to be known as Wagatha Christie because she released this post on social media saying, I've found the culprit and it's dot, dot, dot, Rebecca Vardy.

30:34Camilla: Now, this all went to court because Colleen Rooney claimed that her privacy had been invaded. A critical piece of evidence was Vardy's agent's phone because it was suggested that if stories are placed in the newspapers then an agent might have done it with Vardy's permission. And then suddenly in the middle of all this, as this phone becomes the leading exhibit of the case, it ends up at the bottom of the North Sea. Oh, wow. Apparently it just slipped out of the agent's hands and ended up in, what do you call it, Davy Jones' locker. Well, where it might never have been found because we don't even drill there anymore.

31:09Camilla: No, indeed. In fact, if Kemi Badenock gets her way and Ed Miliband loses that fight. We'll probably find lots of phones. We could find Vardy's phone. We'll find the missing 15 minutes of that Watergate tape at the bottom of some ridge somewhere. Fabulous. What do we think Columbo would say, Tim? Case closed or still slightly open? One more thing is what he normally says. There is one more thing. And that one more thing is Kemi's joke at PMQs. Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister loves to hide behind legal process. I wonder what a director of public prosecutions would make of the defence. Sorry, I can't produce my WhatsApps.

31:44My phone's been stolen. More files will be released. Thousands of more files will be released after recess. So there is still more to discover.

31:55Camilla: We'll be back tomorrow at 5pm with Nick Timothy to discuss That Row about public Muslim prayer.

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